Re: [Talk-us] Motorway vs trunk

[Apollinaris Schoell]

On 4 Mar 2010, at 8:45 , Alan Mintz wrote:

> At 2010-03-03 14:00, Paul Johnson wrote:
>> Dave Hansen wrote:
>> 
>>> On Fri, 2010-02-26 at 15:50 -0500, Richard Welty wrote:
>>> 
>>> Well, it's going to look goofy on the map to have dotted green and blue
>>> lines.
> 
> I agree. However, coincidentally, I drove part of US-101 north of Ventura, 
> CA this weekend and saw exactly that type of labeling on the route. For 
> several miles, you'd see a Begin Freeway sign, then a short distance later, 
> an End Freeway sign, then an intersection, then a Begin Freeway sign, etc. 
> I laughed out loud.
> 
> Regardless of the ground truth, I don't agree it should be mapped this way. 
> I'm mapping the whole area trunk, turning to motorway only where there is a 
> significant stretch (i.e. miles) of no intersections.
> 

this is common on US 101. maybe even worse in northern CA and on many other 
routes like US 50
one osm holy mantra has always been map what's on the ground. 
If the highway system is a mess then there is no reason not to show it on the 
map. 
Compare it with google maps and you will find they do exactly the same up/down



> --
> Alan Mintz 
> 
> 
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Re: [Talk-us] Motorway vs trunk

[Alan Mintz]

At 2010-03-03 14:00, Paul Johnson wrote:
>Dave Hansen wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 2010-02-26 at 15:50 -0500, Richard Welty wrote:
> >
> > Well, it's going to look goofy on the map to have dotted green and blue
> > lines.

I agree. However, coincidentally, I drove part of US-101 north of Ventura, 
CA this weekend and saw exactly that type of labeling on the route. For 
several miles, you'd see a Begin Freeway sign, then a short distance later, 
an End Freeway sign, then an intersection, then a Begin Freeway sign, etc. 
I laughed out loud.

Regardless of the ground truth, I don't agree it should be mapped this way. 
I'm mapping the whole area trunk, turning to motorway only where there is a 
significant stretch (i.e. miles) of no intersections.

--
Alan Mintz 


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Re: [Talk-us] Motorway vs trunk

[Paul Johnson]

Nakor Osm wrote:

>   Hello,
>
> What is the distinction made between trunk and motorways for tagging in the
> US. As an example should this portion of US41 (
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=41.8967&lon=-87.6177&zoom=14 ) be a
> motorway or a trunk?

Expressways are trunks, freeways are motorways.  Since Lake Shore
has intersections like an expressway, it's not a motorway.


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Re: [Talk-us] Motorway vs trunk

[Paul Johnson]

Dave Hansen wrote:

> On Fri, 2010-02-26 at 15:50 -0500, Richard Welty wrote:
>> On 2/26/10 3:14 PM, Nakor Osm wrote:
>> >
>> > What is the distinction made between trunk and motorways for tagging 
>> > in the US. As an example should this portion of US41 ( 
>> > http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=41.8967&lon=-87.6177&zoom=14 
>> >  ) be 
>> > a motorway or a trunk?
>> for all practical purposes, a trunk is a motorway-wannabe, but with 
>> grade level crossings of
>> some sort, either with stop signs for the lesser roads, or traffic 
>> lights. you generally won't
>> see driveways or businesses directly on trunks, there will often be 
>> frontage roads for that.
>> 
>> the portion of US 41 you point out is a bit schzoid, mostly grade 
>> separated but with a scattering
>> of grade level crossings. the points with grade level crossings should 
>> certainly be trunk.
>
> Well, it's going to look goofy on the map to have dotted green and blue
> lines.
>
> I'd say that you also need to consider how long the segment is.  I have
> a divided road with fences on both sides and limited access near my
> house.  There's a 25ft stretch of it with limited access.  Is that a
> motorway for 25ft?  ;)

I'd call both situations a trunk for the entire length.  Expressways
(trunks) can have limited-access ramps, but not all intersections
are grade seperated.  Example:  Oregon's Milwaukie Expressway. 
http://osm.org/go/WIDjUIcuR-




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Re: [Talk-us] Motorway vs trunk

[Richard Welty]

On 2/26/10 4:21 PM, Richard Weait wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Dave Hansen  wrote:
>
>> I think that motorways need to be relatively long.  At least a number of
>> miles of solid motorway to *be* a motorway.
>>  
> Exactly.  Consider the whole road.
>
i agree. that's why the northern section of the Taconic State Parkway is 
(and should
be) trunk, not motorway. there are just enough grade level crossings 
scattered down
it that it'd make quite the mess if it switched back and forth.

richard


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Re: [Talk-us] Motorway vs trunk

[Richard Weait]

On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Dave Hansen  wrote:
> On Fri, 2010-02-26 at 15:50 -0500, Richard Welty wrote:
>> the portion of US 41 you point out is a bit schzoid, mostly grade
>> separated but with a scattering
>> of grade level crossings. the points with grade level crossings should
>> certainly be trunk.
>
> Well, it's going to look goofy on the map to have dotted green and blue
> lines.
>
> I'd say that you also need to consider how long the segment is.  I have
> a divided road with fences on both sides and limited access near my
> house.  There's a 25ft stretch of it with limited access.  Is that a
> motorway for 25ft?  ;)

Yikes, Dave.  Somebody could take you at face value and suggest that
on the wiki.

> I think that motorways need to be relatively long.  At least a number of
> miles of solid motorway to *be* a motorway.

Exactly.  Consider the whole road.

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Re: [Talk-us] Motorway vs trunk

[Alan Mintz]

At 2010-02-26 12:50, Richard Welty wrote:
>On 2/26/10 3:14 PM, Nakor Osm wrote:
> > What is the distinction made between trunk and motorways for tagging
> > in the US. As an example should this portion of US41 (
> > http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=41.8967&lon=-87.6177&zoom=14
> >  ) be
> > a motorway or a trunk?
>for all practical purposes, a trunk is a motorway-wannabe, but with
>grade level crossings of
>some sort, either with stop signs for the lesser roads, or traffic
>lights. you generally won't
>see driveways or businesses directly on trunks, there will often be
>frontage roads for that.

Agreed. IMO, what downgrades a motorway to a trunk is the presence of 
anything that stops traffic on the main roadway for intersecting traffic 
(signals, stop signs, or yield signs). Really, anything more than just a 
very occasional road intersection that does not occur via ramps, or 
driveway, should be grounds to call it a trunk (or even lower).

In the example, I'd call US41 trunk from Monroe St down to Waldron Dr, and 
motorway above and below that (at least for the area I looked at), simply 
based on the appearance of ramp-style intersections vs. 
traffic-signal-controlled perpendicular intersections. I'm guessing that 
speed limits would give further justification.

--
Alan Mintz 


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Re: [Talk-us] Motorway vs trunk

[Dave Hansen]

On Fri, 2010-02-26 at 15:50 -0500, Richard Welty wrote:
> On 2/26/10 3:14 PM, Nakor Osm wrote:
> >
> > What is the distinction made between trunk and motorways for tagging 
> > in the US. As an example should this portion of US41 ( 
> > http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=41.8967&lon=-87.6177&zoom=14 
> >  ) be 
> > a motorway or a trunk?
> for all practical purposes, a trunk is a motorway-wannabe, but with 
> grade level crossings of
> some sort, either with stop signs for the lesser roads, or traffic 
> lights. you generally won't
> see driveways or businesses directly on trunks, there will often be 
> frontage roads for that.
> 
> the portion of US 41 you point out is a bit schzoid, mostly grade 
> separated but with a scattering
> of grade level crossings. the points with grade level crossings should 
> certainly be trunk.

Well, it's going to look goofy on the map to have dotted green and blue
lines.

I'd say that you also need to consider how long the segment is.  I have
a divided road with fences on both sides and limited access near my
house.  There's a 25ft stretch of it with limited access.  Is that a
motorway for 25ft?  ;)

I think that motorways need to be relatively long.  At least a number of
miles of solid motorway to *be* a motorway.

-- Dave


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Re: [Talk-us] Motorway vs trunk

[Brad Neuhauser]

I'm thinking trunk:
1) it shouldn't be motorway because it has grade level intersections
2) the rest of the road is trunk--why have it go from motorway to
trunk and back over a mile?

For the larger issue, here are a few places to look on the wiki for a
variety of perspectives on highway tagging

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_roads_tagging#Interstates
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway#International_equivalence
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Highway_tag_usage

Brad

On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 2:14 PM, Nakor Osm  wrote:
>   Hello,
>
> What is the distinction made between trunk and motorways for tagging in the
> US. As an example should this portion of US41 (
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=41.8967&lon=-87.6177&zoom=14 ) be a
> motorway or a trunk?
>
>   Thanks,
>
> N.
>
>
>
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>

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Re: [Talk-us] Motorway vs trunk

[Richard Welty]

On 2/26/10 3:14 PM, Nakor Osm wrote:
>
> What is the distinction made between trunk and motorways for tagging 
> in the US. As an example should this portion of US41 ( 
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=41.8967&lon=-87.6177&zoom=14 
>  ) be 
> a motorway or a trunk?
for all practical purposes, a trunk is a motorway-wannabe, but with 
grade level crossings of
some sort, either with stop signs for the lesser roads, or traffic 
lights. you generally won't
see driveways or businesses directly on trunks, there will often be 
frontage roads for that.

the portion of US 41 you point out is a bit schzoid, mostly grade 
separated but with a scattering
of grade level crossings. the points with grade level crossings should 
certainly be trunk.

richard


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[Talk-us] Motorway vs trunk

[Nakor Osm]

  Hello,

What is the distinction made between trunk and motorways for tagging in the
US. As an example should this portion of US41 (
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=41.8967&lon=-87.6177&zoom=14 ) be a
motorway or a trunk?

  Thanks,

N.
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