Re: [Talk-us] The San Jose / Santa Clara border

[Minh Nguyen]

On 2019-01-28 12:40, OSM Volunteer stevea wrote:

(Lengthy reply alert)
Hi Minh:

Thanks for your (always thorough and well-researched) pointers and history — though I don't recall 
"impressing LAFCO" upon you, I did mention it in the context of admin_level, so, OK, 
whatever!  Good for Santa Clara LAFCO for publishing municipal boundaries into the PD.  I am again 
thankful we live in a state with excellent public data in the PD along with our "sunshine 
laws."

I like that you made Seven Trees an admin_level=10 for reasons you did, even as you've 
described other SJ neighborhoods as "amorphous" (exactly the right word, imo!)  
I wouldn't have noticed had you not sent me links [1].

"Urban islands as a LAFCO high priority to streamline" is something I've never heard of before.  Notwithstanding the 
letter LAFCO sent City of San José nearly eight years ago [3], I believe it is the City of San José itself which "serves as 
the authority on" its own municipal boundary.  LAFCO might have something to say (keeping accurate maps / GIS data, for 
example) about all cities in Santa Clara County, but I don't think anyone contends that LAFCO doesn't define municipal 
boundaries, the cities themselves do.  Indeed, LAFCO's letter says it can "encourage" annexations (of islands) and 
waive its fees (to incentivize a "streamlined process" for islands 150 acres or less) but it cannot force a city to do 
so, whether this is a "high priority" for the LAFCO or not.

Using link [4] and blending with the instant topic (which I volunteered to remedy), I examined the five pages of City of Santa Clara.  The first four 
(pages 45-48) are "islands" which share a boundary with City of San José (the fifth is an island solely inside of the City of Santa Clara). 
 None of these involve the area around the airport / Westfield Valley Fair, which was Andy Townsend's "area of concern," prompting me to 
answer that I'd take a look.  (SC05, page 48, is pretty close, but is north of the airport and involves a creek edge near Trimble and Orchard).  
Those four "islands" probably could be used to (rather crudely) "hand draw modify" the Santa Clara City Limit boundary in OSM 
(relation 2221647) but it isn't clear to me how what these maps define as Urban Service Boundary is or isn't the actual city limit boundary for Santa 
Clara.  As I think about it, the identification of these four islands (the fifth might become an "inner" member of that relation) in this 
document COULD be used to exclude these islands from the City Limit, but I'm not sure that is accurate (it likely is, I'm simply not sure).  So while 
these resources might qualify as "interesting," I don't find them wholly relevant to what I volunteered to do "near the airport."

However, links [5] and especially [6] yield dense, recent, tasty data.  Having used 
ArcGIS layers before like this (largely while mapping to fix TIGER rail), I can set a 
basemap of OSM while viewing these data.  Doing so allows me to find where there are some 
relatively minor differences, so I elected to fix these, "manually" using JOSM.

These (minor) changes were along the "grass edge" NW of the 101-Trimble interchange, westerly to the UP Coast 
Subdivision rail bridge crossing 101, southerly to just north of Central Expressway (not south, a significant change 
making OSM's representation of CE W of Trimble/De La Cruz to the rail bridge now in Santa Clara, not San José).  This 
continues easterly across Trimble into the airport, as far as Taxiway Y, includes better-traced (though likely not 
perfectly accurate) rectangular and triangular areas of northern portions of runways and taxiways, south along De La 
Cruz and excludes Memorial Cross Park (in San José, not Santa Clara).  The barrier=fence had to be node-by-node unglued 
from the city limit (but kept glued to the parking lot) to be better characterized as "along Martin Avenue" 
(and so was), SE on Martin Avenue (with some "jogs") to a bit further SE on Aviation Avenue, southerly (with 
"jogs") to Campbell Avenue near Stephen Schott Stadium.

 From there, the boundary needed to be moved easterly by about 10 meters, so it 
was, past Sherwood and along Portola Avenue.  Adjustments were made to better 
align with The Alameda, past Morse and Idaho and to I-880, where a 90-degree 
westerly boundary continues to Newhall and Monroe, where as it follows the 
southern boundary of Santa Clara Mission Cemetery, it is correct (enough for 
now).

The ways I changed have IDs 166659029 and 97341711 (recently reverted by Andy Townsend), 
part of the Santa Clara (city) municipal boundary relation.  I believe this is moderately 
better, which is "moderately better."

SteveA


Thanks for making these improvements! I've added an item to our local 
to-do lists for refining the rest of the city boundary as needed:


https://github.com/codeforsanjose/OSM-SouthBay/issues/19
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Special:Diff/1782398

--
m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us
_

Re: [Talk-us] The San Jose / Santa Clara border

[OSM Volunteer stevea]

(Lengthy reply alert)
Hi Minh:

Thanks for your (always thorough and well-researched) pointers and history — 
though I don't recall "impressing LAFCO" upon you, I did mention it in the 
context of admin_level, so, OK, whatever!  Good for Santa Clara LAFCO for 
publishing municipal boundaries into the PD.  I am again thankful we live in a 
state with excellent public data in the PD along with our "sunshine laws."

I like that you made Seven Trees an admin_level=10 for reasons you did, even as 
you've described other SJ neighborhoods as "amorphous" (exactly the right word, 
imo!)  I wouldn't have noticed had you not sent me links [1].

"Urban islands as a LAFCO high priority to streamline" is something I've never 
heard of before.  Notwithstanding the letter LAFCO sent City of San José nearly 
eight years ago [3], I believe it is the City of San José itself which "serves 
as the authority on" its own municipal boundary.  LAFCO might have something to 
say (keeping accurate maps / GIS data, for example) about all cities in Santa 
Clara County, but I don't think anyone contends that LAFCO doesn't define 
municipal boundaries, the cities themselves do.  Indeed, LAFCO's letter says it 
can "encourage" annexations (of islands) and waive its fees (to incentivize a 
"streamlined process" for islands 150 acres or less) but it cannot force a city 
to do so, whether this is a "high priority" for the LAFCO or not.

Using link [4] and blending with the instant topic (which I volunteered to 
remedy), I examined the five pages of City of Santa Clara.  The first four 
(pages 45-48) are "islands" which share a boundary with City of San José (the 
fifth is an island solely inside of the City of Santa Clara).  None of these 
involve the area around the airport / Westfield Valley Fair, which was Andy 
Townsend's "area of concern," prompting me to answer that I'd take a look.  
(SC05, page 48, is pretty close, but is north of the airport and involves a 
creek edge near Trimble and Orchard).  Those four "islands" probably could be 
used to (rather crudely) "hand draw modify" the Santa Clara City Limit boundary 
in OSM (relation 2221647) but it isn't clear to me how what these maps define 
as Urban Service Boundary is or isn't the actual city limit boundary for Santa 
Clara.  As I think about it, the identification of these four islands (the 
fifth might become an "inner" member of that relation) in this document COULD 
be used to exclude these islands from the City Limit, but I'm not sure that is 
accurate (it likely is, I'm simply not sure).  So while these resources might 
qualify as "interesting," I don't find them wholly relevant to what I 
volunteered to do "near the airport."

However, links [5] and especially [6] yield dense, recent, tasty data.  Having 
used ArcGIS layers before like this (largely while mapping to fix TIGER rail), 
I can set a basemap of OSM while viewing these data.  Doing so allows me to 
find where there are some relatively minor differences, so I elected to fix 
these, "manually" using JOSM.

These (minor) changes were along the "grass edge" NW of the 101-Trimble 
interchange, westerly to the UP Coast Subdivision rail bridge crossing 101, 
southerly to just north of Central Expressway (not south, a significant change 
making OSM's representation of CE W of Trimble/De La Cruz to the rail bridge 
now in Santa Clara, not San José).  This continues easterly across Trimble into 
the airport, as far as Taxiway Y, includes better-traced (though likely not 
perfectly accurate) rectangular and triangular areas of northern portions of 
runways and taxiways, south along De La Cruz and excludes Memorial Cross Park 
(in San José, not Santa Clara).  The barrier=fence had to be node-by-node 
unglued from the city limit (but kept glued to the parking lot) to be better 
characterized as "along Martin Avenue" (and so was), SE on Martin Avenue (with 
some "jogs") to a bit further SE on Aviation Avenue, southerly (with "jogs") to 
Campbell Avenue near Stephen Schott Stadium.

From there, the boundary needed to be moved easterly by about 10 meters, so it 
was, past Sherwood and along Portola Avenue.  Adjustments were made to better 
align with The Alameda, past Morse and Idaho and to I-880, where a 90-degree 
westerly boundary continues to Newhall and Monroe, where as it follows the 
southern boundary of Santa Clara Mission Cemetery, it is correct (enough for 
now).

The ways I changed have IDs 166659029 and 97341711 (recently reverted by Andy 
Townsend), part of the Santa Clara (city) municipal boundary relation.  I 
believe this is moderately better, which is "moderately better."

SteveA

> From: Minh Nguyen 
> Subject: Re: [Talk-u

Re: [Talk-us] The San Jose / Santa Clara border

[Minh Nguyen]

On 2019-01-26 17:13, OSM Volunteer stevea wrote:

While I don't know quite who to call, exactly, if somebody wants to "release to me" ODbL-compatible 
data which need to be harmonized with what are now in OSM, I'll volunteer to be the "nexus of citizen 
entry" to assure they find their way into our wonderful map.  Send me a pointer to the data, assure me 
they are ODbL-OK and I'll "merge" these into OSM.


Any help maintaining San José’s sprawling, unwieldy city limits would be 
most welcome. A few years ago, I incorporated the Seven Trees 
annexations into San José [1] but didn't go much further to correct the 
crude, outdated data we imported from TIGER.


Thankfully, over the years, Steve has impressed upon me the importance 
of Santa Clara County's Local Agency Formation Commission (LAFCO), which 
serves as the authority on municipal boundaries in the county and 
conveniently releases all its work into the public domain, by virtue of 
being a state agency. The commission's Island Annexation Program page 
[2] links to a memorandum from May 2011 [3] and an atlas from 2015 [4] 
that include detailed maps of the remaining islands.


The county planning department handles GIS for the LAFCO. They have an 
ArcGIS application and layer indicating all the city and town limits in 
the county. [5][6] The planning department is also subject to state 
sunshine laws regarding the public domain.


[1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/32278082 and 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/32402544
[2] 
https://www.santaclaralafco.org/specialdistricts/island-annexation-program
[3] 
https://www.santaclaralafco.org/file/IslandAnnexations/Item10A_SanJose.pdf
[4] 
https://www.sccgov.org/sites/dpd/DocsForms/Documents/UrbanIslands_2015_Atlas.pdf
[5] 
https://sccplanning.maps.arcgis.com/home/item.html?id=35968e7124f04807bd1ed70b31fab4fd
[6] 
https://services2.arcgis.com/tcv2cMrq63AgvbHF/ArcGIS/rest/services/PlanningOfficeDataService2/FeatureServer/2


--
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Re: [Talk-us] The San Jose / Santa Clara border

[Andy Townsend]

Thanks to everyone who replied - I've reverted the change in 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/66672189 .


On 27/01/2019 01:50, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
Do the latest NGS topographical maps show the city limits properly? 
Those are public domain
On Sun, Jan 27, 2019 at 10:16 AM OSM Volunteer stevea 
mailto:stevea...@softworkers.com>> wrote:


On Jan 26, 2019, at 4:00 AM, Andy Townsend mailto:ajt1...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> A mapper has recently changed this to "cut the corner off" north
of the 880 between San Jose airport and Stevens Creek Mall /
Westfield Valley Fair.  You can see the change at

http://overpass-api.de/achavi/?changeset=66619223&zoom=18&lat=37.33883&lon=-121.93327&layers=B0TTTFT
.
>
> Some of this mapper's previous changes have had to be undone, so
I did check the node change made here to see if it might be one of
them.  However, according to the node history

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/373647840/history#map=13/37.3600/-121.9066
the original source of this node was a changeset quite a while ago
with a description "adjust boundaries based on san jose city map,
bing, and common sense ".  It therefore would be great if a local
could check it if possible.

I'm fairly local (SJC is my "home airport") yet I'm not finding
easily-available San José City Limit boundaries in an
ODbL-compatible format which I could use to relatively quickly
repair the damage.  (The user mk408 has a history of "making it up
as he sees fit" OSM data entry which many have disputed or
redacted, for example, many years ago he made MANY roads in the
entire South Bay region — Campbell, Los Gatos, Monte Sereno,
southern San José —into highway=tertiary roads, and that remained
very questionable until it slowly but surely "healed itself,"
again, this took months-to-years).  There are some geo data at
http://csj-landzoning.appspot.com/index.html which indicate the
present OSM data are "largely correct," the exception being that
the area directly over the northern part of the airport do not
include the "leg" that "covers" runway 12L/30R and that the acute
angle over taxiways V, W and W1 is more like "aligned with these
taxiways, rather than cutting across them."  You really have to
see them rather than expect that I can describe them with text. 
They are, again, "mostly correct" but could use some rather minor
correction.

As I bumped into somebody on a plane on my way back from SOTM-US
Seattle (2016) who works in the San José City Hall and when she
met me was bowled over at the coincidence that I was the very
person sitting next to her drinking gin and tonic who entered into
OSM most of Santa Clara County's bikeways/bicycle infrastructure
and network=lcn routing (which the city office found "extremely
helpful" — her words), it's conceivable that I might be able to
use that to sway release of some data which could be forthcoming. 
While I don't know quite who to call, exactly, if somebody wants
to "release to me" ODbL-compatible data which need to be
harmonized with what are now in OSM, I'll volunteer to be the
"nexus of citizen entry" to assure they find their way into our
wonderful map.  Send me a pointer to the data, assure me they are
ODbL-OK and I'll "merge" these into OSM.

SteveA
California
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Re: [Talk-us] The San Jose / Santa Clara border

[Jack Burke]

Does anyone know someone who lives in the "disputed" area? If so, then one 
definitive information point is what local government elections he/she can vote 
in. 

-jack 
-- 
Typos courtesy of fancy auto spell technology

On January 26, 2019 8:50:39 PM EST, Joseph Eisenberg 
 wrote:
>Do the latest NGS topographical maps show the city limits properly?
>Those
>are public domain
>On Sun, Jan 27, 2019 at 10:16 AM OSM Volunteer stevea <
>stevea...@softworkers.com> wrote:
>
>> On Jan 26, 2019, at 4:00 AM, Andy Townsend  wrote:
>> > A mapper has recently changed this to "cut the corner off" north of
>the
>> 880 between San Jose airport and Stevens Creek Mall / Westfield
>Valley
>> Fair.  You can see the change at
>>
>http://overpass-api.de/achavi/?changeset=66619223&zoom=18&lat=37.33883&lon=-121.93327&layers=B0TTTFT
>> .
>> >
>> > Some of this mapper's previous changes have had to be undone, so I
>did
>> check the node change made here to see if it might be one of them.
>> However, according to the node history
>>
>https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/373647840/history#map=13/37.3600/-121.9066
>> the original source of this node was a changeset quite a while ago
>with a
>> description "adjust boundaries based on san jose city map, bing, and
>common
>> sense ".  It therefore would be great if a local could check it if
>possible.
>>
>> I'm fairly local (SJC is my "home airport") yet I'm not finding
>> easily-available San José City Limit boundaries in an ODbL-compatible
>> format which I could use to relatively quickly repair the damage. 
>(The
>> user mk408 has a history of "making it up as he sees fit" OSM data
>entry
>> which many have disputed or redacted, for example, many years ago he
>made
>> MANY roads in the entire South Bay region — Campbell, Los Gatos,
>Monte
>> Sereno, southern San José —into highway=tertiary roads, and that
>remained
>> very questionable until it slowly but surely "healed itself," again,
>this
>> took months-to-years).  There are some geo data at
>> http://csj-landzoning.appspot.com/index.html which indicate the
>present
>> OSM data are "largely correct," the exception being that the area
>directly
>> over the northern part of the airport do not include the "leg" that
>> "covers" runway 12L/30R and that the acute angle over taxiways V, W
>and W1
>> is more like "aligned with these taxiways, rather than cutting across
>> them."  You really have to see them rather than expect that I can
>describe
>> them with text.  They are, again, "mostly correct" but could use some
>> rather minor correction.
>>
>> As I bumped into somebody on a plane on my way back from SOTM-US
>Seattle
>> (2016) who works in the San José City Hall and when she met me was
>bowled
>> over at the coincidence that I was the very person sitting next to
>her
>> drinking gin and tonic who entered into OSM most of Santa Clara
>County's
>> bikeways/bicycle infrastructure and network=lcn routing (which the
>city
>> office found "extremely helpful" — her words), it's conceivable that
>I
>> might be able to use that to sway release of some data which could be
>> forthcoming.  While I don't know quite who to call, exactly, if
>somebody
>> wants to "release to me" ODbL-compatible data which need to be
>harmonized
>> with what are now in OSM, I'll volunteer to be the "nexus of citizen
>entry"
>> to assure they find their way into our wonderful map.  Send me a
>pointer to
>> the data, assure me they are ODbL-OK and I'll "merge" these into OSM.
>>
>> SteveA
>> California
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Re: [Talk-us] The San Jose / Santa Clara border

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Do the latest NGS topographical maps show the city limits properly? Those
are public domain
On Sun, Jan 27, 2019 at 10:16 AM OSM Volunteer stevea <
stevea...@softworkers.com> wrote:

> On Jan 26, 2019, at 4:00 AM, Andy Townsend  wrote:
> > A mapper has recently changed this to "cut the corner off" north of the
> 880 between San Jose airport and Stevens Creek Mall / Westfield Valley
> Fair.  You can see the change at
> http://overpass-api.de/achavi/?changeset=66619223&zoom=18&lat=37.33883&lon=-121.93327&layers=B0TTTFT
> .
> >
> > Some of this mapper's previous changes have had to be undone, so I did
> check the node change made here to see if it might be one of them.
> However, according to the node history
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/373647840/history#map=13/37.3600/-121.9066
> the original source of this node was a changeset quite a while ago with a
> description "adjust boundaries based on san jose city map, bing, and common
> sense ".  It therefore would be great if a local could check it if possible.
>
> I'm fairly local (SJC is my "home airport") yet I'm not finding
> easily-available San José City Limit boundaries in an ODbL-compatible
> format which I could use to relatively quickly repair the damage.  (The
> user mk408 has a history of "making it up as he sees fit" OSM data entry
> which many have disputed or redacted, for example, many years ago he made
> MANY roads in the entire South Bay region — Campbell, Los Gatos, Monte
> Sereno, southern San José —into highway=tertiary roads, and that remained
> very questionable until it slowly but surely "healed itself," again, this
> took months-to-years).  There are some geo data at
> http://csj-landzoning.appspot.com/index.html which indicate the present
> OSM data are "largely correct," the exception being that the area directly
> over the northern part of the airport do not include the "leg" that
> "covers" runway 12L/30R and that the acute angle over taxiways V, W and W1
> is more like "aligned with these taxiways, rather than cutting across
> them."  You really have to see them rather than expect that I can describe
> them with text.  They are, again, "mostly correct" but could use some
> rather minor correction.
>
> As I bumped into somebody on a plane on my way back from SOTM-US Seattle
> (2016) who works in the San José City Hall and when she met me was bowled
> over at the coincidence that I was the very person sitting next to her
> drinking gin and tonic who entered into OSM most of Santa Clara County's
> bikeways/bicycle infrastructure and network=lcn routing (which the city
> office found "extremely helpful" — her words), it's conceivable that I
> might be able to use that to sway release of some data which could be
> forthcoming.  While I don't know quite who to call, exactly, if somebody
> wants to "release to me" ODbL-compatible data which need to be harmonized
> with what are now in OSM, I'll volunteer to be the "nexus of citizen entry"
> to assure they find their way into our wonderful map.  Send me a pointer to
> the data, assure me they are ODbL-OK and I'll "merge" these into OSM.
>
> SteveA
> California
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Re: [Talk-us] The San Jose / Santa Clara border

[OSM Volunteer stevea]

On Jan 26, 2019, at 4:00 AM, Andy Townsend  wrote:
> A mapper has recently changed this to "cut the corner off" north of the 880 
> between San Jose airport and Stevens Creek Mall / Westfield Valley Fair.  You 
> can see the change at 
> http://overpass-api.de/achavi/?changeset=66619223&zoom=18&lat=37.33883&lon=-121.93327&layers=B0TTTFT
>  .
> 
> Some of this mapper's previous changes have had to be undone, so I did check 
> the node change made here to see if it might be one of them.  However, 
> according to the node history 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/373647840/history#map=13/37.3600/-121.9066 
> the original source of this node was a changeset quite a while ago with a 
> description "adjust boundaries based on san jose city map, bing, and common 
> sense ".  It therefore would be great if a local could check it if possible.

I'm fairly local (SJC is my "home airport") yet I'm not finding 
easily-available San José City Limit boundaries in an ODbL-compatible format 
which I could use to relatively quickly repair the damage.  (The user mk408 has 
a history of "making it up as he sees fit" OSM data entry which many have 
disputed or redacted, for example, many years ago he made MANY roads in the 
entire South Bay region — Campbell, Los Gatos, Monte Sereno, southern San José 
—into highway=tertiary roads, and that remained very questionable until it 
slowly but surely "healed itself," again, this took months-to-years).  There 
are some geo data at http://csj-landzoning.appspot.com/index.html which 
indicate the present OSM data are "largely correct," the exception being that 
the area directly over the northern part of the airport do not include the 
"leg" that "covers" runway 12L/30R and that the acute angle over taxiways V, W 
and W1 is more like "aligned with these taxiways, rather than cutting across 
them."  You really have to see them rather than expect that I can describe them 
with text.  They are, again, "mostly correct" but could use some rather minor 
correction.

As I bumped into somebody on a plane on my way back from SOTM-US Seattle (2016) 
who works in the San José City Hall and when she met me was bowled over at the 
coincidence that I was the very person sitting next to her drinking gin and 
tonic who entered into OSM most of Santa Clara County's bikeways/bicycle 
infrastructure and network=lcn routing (which the city office found "extremely 
helpful" — her words), it's conceivable that I might be able to use that to 
sway release of some data which could be forthcoming.  While I don't know quite 
who to call, exactly, if somebody wants to "release to me" ODbL-compatible data 
which need to be harmonized with what are now in OSM, I'll volunteer to be the 
"nexus of citizen entry" to assure they find their way into our wonderful map.  
Send me a pointer to the data, assure me they are ODbL-OK and I'll "merge" 
these into OSM.

SteveA
California
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[Talk-us] The San Jose / Santa Clara border

[Andy Townsend]

A mapper has recently changed this to "cut the corner off" north of the 
880 between San Jose airport and Stevens Creek Mall / Westfield Valley 
Fair.  You can see the change at 
http://overpass-api.de/achavi/?changeset=66619223&zoom=18&lat=37.33883&lon=-121.93327&layers=B0TTTFT 
.


Some of this mapper's previous changes have had to be undone, so I did 
check the node change made here to see if it might be one of them.  
However, according to the node history 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/373647840/history#map=13/37.3600/-121.9066 
the original source of this node was a changeset quite a while ago with 
a description "adjust boundaries based on san jose city map, bing, and 
common sense ".  It therefore would be great if a local could check it 
if possible.


FWIW I've only ever had the vaguest idea where the boundary was here 
(I'd always assumed it's around the 880 itself, but obviously the 
boundary predates the road, so that clearly makes no sense :)


Best Regards,

Andy (from the DWG)


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