Re: [Talk-us] suburban superblocks that nobody wants to survey

[Nathan Mills]

On 3/17/2012 10:20 AM, Reiser, John J. wrote:

What about using county or state-wide parcel data for address points?
Centroid of each real property lot. There's many problems with doing this
for a whole state; NJ has many cases of one house sitting on multiple lots
(old subdivisions of 25'x60', later built as 75'x60' or so without
consolidation of the lots) but for newer subdivisions this would work
fine. NJ data is public domain, don't know about other states and counties.


Where I map, the address point data is indeed public domain (when it's 
available), but it takes ages for the public sites to be updated and 
nobody's terribly interested in fixing that given the budget situation 
they're dealing with. I did an import of address point data for four 
counties in Arkansas, but I couldn't really get consensus that it was 
what the community wanted so I didn't continue beyond that.


-Nathan

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Re: [Talk-us] suburban superblocks that nobody wants to survey

[Reiser, John J.]

What about using county or state-wide parcel data for address points?
Centroid of each real property lot. There's many problems with doing this
for a whole state; NJ has many cases of one house sitting on multiple lots
(old subdivisions of 25'x60', later built as 75'x60' or so without
consolidation of the lots) but for newer subdivisions this would work
fine. NJ data is public domain, don't know about other states and counties.

I could dump our address points into OSM format if there's interest.

John Reiser
Campus GIS Specialist
Rowan University 
http://gis.rowan.edu/





>Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 21:34:35 +0700
>From: Kate Chapman 
>To: Rich 
>Cc: Nathan Edgars II , talk-us@openstreetmap.org
>Subject: Re: [Talk-us] suburban superblocks that nobody wants to
>   survey
>Message-ID:
>   
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
>What about actually doing the entry while you are in the car?
>
>My first job after college was to map every house in a county.  (Wayne
>County, Indiana for those that are curious) The set-up was to use GPS
>with a computer and to map the addresses as you went.  We were already
>starting with the county's master address list, but I don't see how
>this would be different.
>
>The only entire suburban neighborhood I mapped was my own. Can't say
>it was that much fun, but I'd just get another string of addresses
>everyday on the way to work and enter them that night.  I didn't end
>up with that much data at any one time, but it did take a long time to
>complete.
>
>-Kate
>


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Re: [Talk-us] suburban superblocks that nobody wants to survey

[Kate Chapman]

What about actually doing the entry while you are in the car?

My first job after college was to map every house in a county.  (Wayne
County, Indiana for those that are curious) The set-up was to use GPS
with a computer and to map the addresses as you went.  We were already
starting with the county's master address list, but I don't see how
this would be different.

The only entire suburban neighborhood I mapped was my own. Can't say
it was that much fun, but I'd just get another string of addresses
everyday on the way to work and enter them that night.  I didn't end
up with that much data at any one time, but it did take a long time to
complete.

-Kate



On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 3:10 PM, Rich  wrote:
> On 03/16/12 01:10, Nathan Edgars II wrote:
>>
>> On 3/15/2012 6:43 PM, Nathan Mills wrote:
>>>
>>> On 3/15/2012 4:59 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote:

 lots of driving and all you get is street names, since everything else
 is single-family houses.
>>>
>>>
>>> And address points
>>
>>
>> How does this work? Do you stop at every house and write down the address?
>
>
> my workflow for the most efficient data collection :
>
> 2 persons in a car. one takes photos and instructs the other on the route.
> later photos are correlated to the gpx based on their timestamps - and i
> have location-identified photos of housenumbers, shops, pubs, restaurants,
> water hydrants and lots and lots of other features.
>
> there is only one problem with this approach - i can collect lots more data
> than i can process, sleeping factored in ;)
> --
>  Rich
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] suburban superblocks that nobody wants to survey

[Rich]

On 03/16/12 01:10, Nathan Edgars II wrote:

On 3/15/2012 6:43 PM, Nathan Mills wrote:

On 3/15/2012 4:59 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote:

lots of driving and all you get is street names, since everything else
is single-family houses.


And address points


How does this work? Do you stop at every house and write down the address?


my workflow for the most efficient data collection :

2 persons in a car. one takes photos and instructs the other on the route.
later photos are correlated to the gpx based on their timestamps - and i 
have location-identified photos of housenumbers, shops, pubs, 
restaurants, water hydrants and lots and lots of other features.


there is only one problem with this approach - i can collect lots more 
data than i can process, sleeping factored in ;)

--
 Rich

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Re: [Talk-us] suburban superblocks that nobody wants to survey

[Katie Filbert]

On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 7:10 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote:

> On 3/15/2012 6:43 PM, Nathan Mills wrote:
>
>> On 3/15/2012 4:59 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote:
>>
>>> lots of driving and all you get is street names, since everything else
>>> is single-family houses.
>>>
>>
>> And address points
>>
>
> How does this work? Do you stop at every house and write down the address?


I've done audio recordings on my phone as I drive slowly or can be biking
or walking.  :)  Best with hands free.

Yell out the house numbers (and other features), one side of the street at
a time (optionally with gps tracks, but USGS imagery is good)

I have only so much time to drive around though and takes time to
postprocess and upload.  It's nice to see a bunch of new mappers in my area
recently.

Cheers,
Katie



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>
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-- 
Katie Filbert
President, Wikimedia District of Columbia
http://wikimediadc.org
filbe...@gmail.com
@filbertkm / @wikimediadc
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Re: [Talk-us] suburban superblocks that nobody wants to survey

[Richard Welty]

On 3/15/12 7:10 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote:

On 3/15/2012 6:43 PM, Nathan Mills wrote:

On 3/15/2012 4:59 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote:

lots of driving and all you get is street names, since everything else
is single-family houses.


And address points


How does this work? Do you stop at every house and write down the 
address?
you might get the endpoints for each segment and a couple of in between 
and build

interpolations.

richard


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Re: [Talk-us] suburban superblocks that nobody wants to survey

[Nathan Mills]

On 3/15/2012 6:10 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote:
How does this work? Do you stop at every house and write down the 
address?


I mount a camera on the windshield and use JOSM's image plugin to place 
them on the track, then it's just a matter of looking at the images and 
identifying addresses, then estimating the position for the address 
point based on the picture and the GPS track.


I first tried to do this with my cell phone camera, but the aperture 
control and dynamic range were poor enough that I could only get about 
half the addresses.  It turns out even a cheap P&S works a lot better. 
Obviously the points aren't going to be perfectly placed on the entrance 
to the house, but it's as accurate as anything else those of us without 
pro equipment can really do.


My original tactic was to write down the addresses at the end of each 
block and use interpolation ways. In a lot of subdivisions around here 
that works really well because the city forces them to address (mostly) 
correctly. In other cities where the addressing is less regular it 
doesn't work so well, in that not all addresses in the range actually 
exist. The problem with this method becomes apparent when you find that 
the subdivision you've mapped is too new to have aerial coverage. Too 
much guessing for me.


The really sad thing is when you get to a new subdivision before there 
are any houses. No address points at all in that case. ;)


-Nathan

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Re: [Talk-us] suburban superblocks that nobody wants to survey

[Nathan Edgars II]

On 3/15/2012 6:43 PM, Nathan Mills wrote:

On 3/15/2012 4:59 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote:

lots of driving and all you get is street names, since everything else
is single-family houses.


And address points


How does this work? Do you stop at every house and write down the address?

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Re: [Talk-us] suburban superblocks that nobody wants to survey

[Nathan Mills]

On 3/15/2012 4:59 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote:
lots of driving and all you get is street names, since everything else 
is single-family houses.


And address points, amenities, water features, gates, and whatever else 
might be around, maybe a bridge or a stream or something. Oh, and don't 
forget the streets themselves if aerial imagery is outdated. It's not 
terribly exciting, but it's not terribly hard, either. A few hundred 
house subdivision only takes a couple of hours at most to map and input.


If all I wanted was street names, I'd ask the planning commission.

Besides, there's some amount of fun that comes from "beating" Google. ;)

-Nathan

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Re: [Talk-us] suburban superblocks that nobody wants to survey

[Nathan Edgars II]

On 3/15/2012 8:52 AM, Hillsman, Edward wrote:

On 3/14/2012 21:18:57 -0400 Nathan Edgars II wrote:


Depending on the state or local government, you may be able to verify
names against an official dataset. Otherwise subdivision plats work for
the endless suburban superblocks that nobody wants to survey.


In the interest of figuring out how to attract more people to participate in 
OSM, I'd like to see some more discussion of this. Is it generally true that 
people who work on OSM don't like to map subdivisions? And, if so, why? Because 
these are home to so many people in the US, it raises a question about the 
viability of strategies that suggest people start in OSM by mapping their own 
neighborhoods.


I was talking specifically about driving through these neighborhoods to 
get street names. Obviously if you live there it's different, or if you 
live nearby and exercise by bike. But driving through subdivisions far 
from home has a high cost-to-benefit ratio - lots of driving and all you 
get is street names, since everything else is single-family houses.


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Re: [Talk-us] suburban superblocks that nobody wants to survey

[Alan Mintz]

At 2012-03-15 06:27, Mike N wrote:

On 3/15/2012 8:52 AM, Hillsman, Edward wrote:
In the interest of figuring out how to attract more people to participate 
in OSM, I'd like to see some more discussion of this. Is it generally 
true that people who work on OSM don't like to map subdivisions? And, if 
so, why? Because these are home to so many people in the US, it raises a 
question about the viability of strategies that suggest people start in 
OSM by mapping their own neighborhoods.


 I don't know anything about this specifically.   It's interesting that 
not a single person in those 120 subdivisions was interested in mapping 
their own subdivision.


Assuming we're talking about the US, not really surprising. I've mapped 
hundreds of subdivisions in southern Cal.  In particular, dozens of them 
were not on the map at all, having been developed after TIGER's 2005 source 
date. Some were not even on Google Maps, so you'd think someone out there 
other than me would have wanted to map them.



   I have done some onsite surveys of smaller subdivisions (100-400 
homes), and can set this up with a camera,  video cam, and bike to 
collect quite a lot of information in a single visit, and the end result 
is streets with lanes, speed limits, one ways, and house numbers.


Yup - me too, with a car, GPS, and a digital camera.


  In this area, since no one else is participating[1], it's just a 
practical matter to create the base new subdivision information from 
TIGER since the local governments don't freely give this 
information.  The only followup surveys are quick to clarify obvious 
errors in the TIGER data.


The subdivision plat idea is new to me, but I'm not sure where I'd find them.


I've recently done this when I see an area that really is untouched. I 
first make sure that all the ways are the original TIGER ways 
("tiger:cfcc"=* ((version:1 user:DaveHansenTiger) | (version:2 
user:balrog-kun))), remove them, then convert and transplant in new 
TIGER2011 data, connecting it to existing ways at the borders.


BTW, many (most IME) county governments have at least some data available 
for free. Assessor's maps are generally more available, though keep in mind 
that they are less authoritative on naming than tract/parcel maps because 
the assessor's role is more related to the land parcels than the streets 
between them. Tract/parcel maps, records of surveys, roadbooks, etc. are 
generally available from the planning and/or public works departments. 
While they are usually filed with the county recorder, that avenue is 
usually not free. All it takes is a little digging. If you run into a 
fee-required situation, don't be afraid to ask for a waiver, describing OSM 
and your need to use them as a reference. That's worked for me.


--
Alan Mintz 


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Re: [Talk-us] suburban superblocks that nobody wants to survey

[Richard Weait]

On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 11:35 AM, Martijn van Exel  wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 7:52 AM, Hillsman, Edward 
> wrote:
>>
>> In the interest of figuring out how to attract more people to participate
>> in OSM, I'd like to see some more discussion of this. Is it generally true
>> that people who work on OSM don't like to map subdivisions?

[ ... ]
> Apart from that, I can see why these areas seem to have low priority.
[ ... ]
> Subdivisions make for boring mapping.
[ ... ]
> I see two ways to break this: 1) attract more mappers.

I don't accept that mapping a subdivision is any more-boring or
less-rewarding than other forms of mapping.  The caveat is "as long as
it is your subdivision".  Sure, they might be row upon row of similar
construction, but at least they are row upon of similar construction
full of your friends and neighbours.  That motivates the mapper to put
it on the map and to get it right.

That new, local mapper is most likely to update the map when one field
is converted to a cricket pitch, and when the local convenience store
has a name change a few years down the road.  You can't beat that as a
mapper from a distance.

So, yes.  Attract more mappers, in more places.

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Re: [Talk-us] suburban superblocks that nobody wants to survey

[Martijn van Exel]

Hi,

On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 7:52 AM, Hillsman, Edward wrote:

> In the interest of figuring out how to attract more people to participate
> in OSM, I'd like to see some more discussion of this. Is it generally true
> that people who work on OSM don't like to map subdivisions? And, if so,
> why? Because these are home to so many people in the US, it raises a
> question about the viability of strategies that suggest people start in OSM
> by mapping their own neighborhoods.


It would be straightforward enough to do some analysis on this, and I
concur that it would be interesting, if only there was some geographical
demarcation file of these types of neighborhoods. Would it be possible to
define that?

Apart from that, I can see why these areas seem to have low priority. I am
going to make a lot of assumptions here, because that's all I can do
without having really investigated.
Subdivisions make for boring mapping. It is repetitive and there seems to
be no end to them. OSM contributors invest their free time in the project
and want to get something out of it: fun, a sense of accomplishment. So
they spend their time on fun mapping projects, not boring ones. Considering
that the US is horribly understaffed with contributors, subdivisions are
much less likely to be tended to, unless one of those sparse mappers has
some personal incentive.

I see two ways to break this: 1) attract more mappers. 2) make boring
projects fun. I see both tasks as core to growing OpenStreetMap in the US,
and they are related.

-- 
martijn van exel
geospatial omnivore
1109 1st ave #2
salt lake city, ut 84103
801-550-5815
http://oegeo.wordpress.com
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Re: [Talk-us] suburban superblocks that nobody wants to survey

[Mike N]

On 3/15/2012 8:52 AM, Hillsman, Edward wrote:

In the interest of figuring out how to attract more people to participate in 
OSM, I'd like to see some more discussion of this. Is it generally true that 
people who work on OSM don't like to map subdivisions? And, if so, why? Because 
these are home to so many people in the US, it raises a question about the 
viability of strategies that suggest people start in OSM by mapping their own 
neighborhoods.


 I don't know anything about this specifically.   It's interesting that 
not a single person in those 120 subdivisions was interested in mapping 
their own subdivision.   I have done some onsite surveys of smaller 
subdivisions (100-400 homes), and can set this up with a camera,  video 
cam, and bike to collect quite a lot of information in a single visit, 
and the end result is streets with lanes, speed limits, one ways, and 
house numbers.   In this area, since no one else is participating[1], 
it's just a practical matter to create the base new subdivision 
information from TIGER since the local governments don't freely give 
this information.  The only followup surveys are quick to clarify 
obvious errors in the TIGER data.


The subdivision plat idea is new to me, but I'm not sure where I'd find 
them.


[1] It is notable that likely because of the Apple publicity spike, a 
single new mapper popped up and added streets in his neighborhood and 
did a quality job.   If this was indeed because of the lure of the 
'blank page', our license removal exercise will create many more blank 
pages to test this theory with.



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[Talk-us] suburban superblocks that nobody wants to survey

[Hillsman, Edward]

On 3/14/2012 21:18:57 -0400 Nathan Edgars II wrote:

>Depending on the state or local government, you may be able to verify 
>names against an official dataset. Otherwise subdivision plats work for 
>the endless suburban superblocks that nobody wants to survey.

In the interest of figuring out how to attract more people to participate in 
OSM, I'd like to see some more discussion of this. Is it generally true that 
people who work on OSM don't like to map subdivisions? And, if so, why? Because 
these are home to so many people in the US, it raises a question about the 
viability of strategies that suggest people start in OSM by mapping their own 
neighborhoods.

I admit that I prefer not to, but because of where I live and work, my activity 
space doesn't take me into them very often. I did start out in OSM by mapping 
my neighborhood surroundings. I have mapped some subdivisions (ways and 
land-uses but not individual houses) and don't find them boring or onerous (for 
onerous, splitting streets into dual carriageways is at the top of my list).

Ed Hillsman


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