[Tango-L] V Campeonato Mundial de Baile de Tango -- tango de salon finalists
http://www.mundialdetango.gov.ar/tango_salon_e.php ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] To lead or not to lead
A few thoughts Heres the terminology Ive used for years in teaching and discussions. Outside Partner: Man is on the womans right side. Inline: Man is directly facing the woman. Inside Partner: Man is on the womans left side. Some people are reasoning that if the cross happens automatically in outside partner, then it should happen automatically in inside partner. Except that doesnt consider the womans comfort (if she aint comfortable, it aint gonna happen), which differs because of the asymmetry of the embrace, as a several people have noted. The molinete is a womans default, which takes years for her to do really well (at least 5 years, Id say to get a good one), which opens doors to more possibilities than having each step being led (which really doesnt happen, anyway). Changing or adjusting the default is not that difficult if the man pays attention to timing and her hip position. Ive tested in open embrace (demonstrating it in beginning classes) that completely novice women will usually automatically do back-open-front if the man asks for molinete that begins with a back step/cross. If you start her on a front step, shes likely to continue doing forward steps around you. If you start her on a side step (unless youre using it to set up a back step), shes again likely to go forward. Left to their own devices, women wont do a clean side step during a molinete, which is critical to a good back step. Hence, their tendency toward forward steps. Whats interesting, though, is that her natural tendency during her front step of the giro and the first time shes invited to a cross (whether its the ocho cortado or a led 8CB) will be to turn her hips away and then pivot back toward her partner. So, what she needs to learn for the cross is to not pivot her hips away from her partner and to remain on one foot (shell normally want to revert to a balanced 2-leg stance). This will also keep her in time to the music. So in a salida, what causes me to cross or not cross? Quite simply, in step 4, the bottom part of my right hip is taken past my left hip as I extend backwards, and if my left hip is not allowed to "catch up" with my right hip, I either cross or kick myself. The man doesnt even need to turn his shoulders toward his left. If my left hip is allowed to "catch up" with my right, I continue walking straight back. Thats my current analysis anyway. In my favorite invitation to cross (which is in close-embrace), the man uses a slight lifting of his chest (like taking a breath) to gently lift my left leg and moves ever slightly to place it into the cross. From there he can shift my weight (like an exhale) or not, as he pleases. Perfect for my favorite orchestra of DiSarli, though I'm loving D'Agostino/Vargas more and more. Trini de Pittsburgh PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburghs most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] To lead or not to lead
You can use suspension to slow her down. Trini de Pittsburgh --- Michael <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I understand and agree, Dubravko. However, the worst part > is when the woman rushes it. I can understand if the man > rushes the lead. However, there's no good excuse to lead > nor follow a rushed cross when the music is a S-L-O-W > sensusal DiSarli. My favorite DiSarli, El Jaguel, is so > slow and emotional, it defies anyone to rush. > > Another example of a rushed step is the stepover. This is > an opportunity for the woman to play with the music (and > the man). However, so many women just step over the foot > like it's an obstacle on the sidewalk. Too many dancers > concentrate on the "what" and not enough on the "how." > > Michael Ditkoff > Washington, DC > Danced in NY last night then took Greyhound home at 3:45 > AM. What I put myself through for tango. My parents will > never understand. > > > - Original Message - > From: "Dubravko Kakarigi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "tango-l list" > Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 5:37 PM > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] To lead or not to lead > > > A cross, which can happen in many, many situations and in > many ways, is for me, as a man, the most beautiful and > sensual moment in tango if done well. I absolutely love > it when a woman allows me to co-design it, because then I > can play with it, with its many elements. It is a moment > of absolute unification of the two dancers - it is a > bliss of tango for me, the most magical moment in its > simple and yet so extraordinary beauty. Yes, you guessed > it, I could go on and on talking about it, but I'd rather > dance it. Anyone? > > === > seek, appreciate, and create beauty >this life is not a rehearsal > === > > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburghs most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] To lead or not to lead
I understand and agree, Dubravko. However, the worst part is when the woman rushes it. I can understand if the man rushes the lead. However, there's no good excuse to lead nor follow a rushed cross when the music is a S-L-O-W sensusal DiSarli. My favorite DiSarli, El Jaguel, is so slow and emotional, it defies anyone to rush. Another example of a rushed step is the stepover. This is an opportunity for the woman to play with the music (and the man). However, so many women just step over the foot like it's an obstacle on the sidewalk. Too many dancers concentrate on the "what" and not enough on the "how." Michael Ditkoff Washington, DC Danced in NY last night then took Greyhound home at 3:45 AM. What I put myself through for tango. My parents will never understand. - Original Message - From: "Dubravko Kakarigi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "tango-l list" Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 5:37 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] To lead or not to lead A cross, which can happen in many, many situations and in many ways, is for me, as a man, the most beautiful and sensual moment in tango if done well. I absolutely love it when a woman allows me to co-design it, because then I can play with it, with its many elements. It is a moment of absolute unification of the two dancers - it is a bliss of tango for me, the most magical moment in its simple and yet so extraordinary beauty. Yes, you guessed it, I could go on and on talking about it, but I'd rather dance it. Anyone? === seek, appreciate, and create beauty this life is not a rehearsal === ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] To lead or not to lead the cross
Not having Gustavo's tape, I'm not in a position to answer directly. So I'm not going to argue about whether I or Gustavo am correct. And moreover, in tango there are usually many ways to skin the cat. Some meed the standard, some don't. Anyway, Gustavo can only speak for his dance. It's a mighty fine dance he's got, though. And, I can only speak for my dance: However, in doing the count 5 of the 8CB and the front cross of a giro in close embrace, the follower's hip motion is almost the same, the difference being that with the giro the preceding step is 100% to the side, and with the 8CB, the preceding step is 100% to the back. I have not stated that there is a man's body turn to the left. What I have stated is that one twists the spine to the right ... I did forget to state that the hips stay pointed in the same direction as the LOD. This displaces the woman to the right. On step 4 of the 8CB in the normal system the way I do it in close, three (of many) possibilities are: A) exactly where it would be if just walking with the follower in front of me. B) one foots-width to the left of item A above C) one foots-width to the right of item A above Now remember, I've placed the follower about 4 inches to my right with a bit of torso twist. If I take option B, and untwist my torso, the follower must cross to keep the frame ... the lead is so clear that even beginners catch it. If I take option C, and keep the torso twist, then I completely take the option to cross away from the woman, the frame won't permit it, and my left foot is in the way as well (best is if I touch my left foot to her left foot, as yet a thirt "Don't cross!" signal). Option A lies in the territory between "Yes, do cross!" and "No, don't cross", so one oughtn't do it. I myself have seen no problems with followers having a hard time exiting from the cross the way I lead it, nor do I think my teacher would stop twisting my balls about it until such problems went away. And, I would expect her to be very familiar with the issues at hand ... she was around when Chicho started working with Fabian and Gustavo. One the very first things she started working with me on was the lead to the cross, and then she had me work on the double-time cross in cross foot system coming out of half turns to the right and left a la Tete. Christopher On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 03:03:56 -0400, "Keith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > Christopher, > > I hate to repeat myself but the LF foot cross of the Giro to left > requires a woman's hip-turn to right. Your > description of step 5 of the 8CB has a woman's hip-turn to left. That's > not just a variation but a completely > different step and destroys Gustavo's theory that the 8CB follows the > same code as a Giro to left. > > Gustavo says, quite forcefully, that your method of leading step 5 of > the 8CB is WRONG. I still have the video - he > slaps his fist into his palm and says your method will cause the couple > to collide and puts them in a position that is > very difficult to get out of. > > Now, I can understand your reticence at being at odds with Gustavo, but > just saying ... "There's no disagreement" > won't make it go away. You're going to have to do better than that. > > Keith, HK > > > On Sun Aug 26 6:15 , [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent: > > >There's no disagreement. Counts 3 to 6 of the 8CD are certainly a > >variation on back, open, front, side. > > > >Christopher > > > >On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 15:33:57 -0400, "Keith" [EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > >> Dear All, > >> > >> Leading the cross is certainly an interesting subject. > >> > >> Manuel and Huck are adherents of Gustavoâs theory that the first 5 > >> steps of the 8CB, up to and including the cross, follow the > >> code of the Giro to left. As a result, at the time of the cross, the > >> lady will turn her hips a little to the right and this is how Gustavo > >> teaches it. He specifically states that for the woman to turn to the > >> left is wrong, as this is contrary to the code of the Giro. > >> > >> But, recently, Christopher and Sergio have both stated that to cross is > >> best led by a body turn to the left. > >> > >> Can I ask how Manuel and Huck lead the cross and whether they think, > >> like Gustavo, that Christopher and Sergio are > >> wrong? Or, are there many ways to lead the cross and Gustavo's theory is > >> not set in stone? > >> > >> Keith, HK > >> > >> > >> On Sat Aug 25 23:40 , "Sergio Vandekier" sent: > >> > >> > > >> >If you want to lead the cross in tango you may do so, and this does not > >> >interfere at all with the dance. All you need to do is at step # 4 of > >> >the > >> >base, you walk slightly diagonally away from the lady and turn your chest > >> >slightly from your right to straight to the LOD (as described by somebody > >> >before). > >> > > >> >> > >> >There are many ways to dance tango. > >> > > >> >Best regards, Sergio > >> > >> > >> Christopher writes on 24
Re: [Tango-L] Should automatic crossing, or automatic anything, be discouraged?
> I find that it takes 30 or 40 minutes for new beginners to learn the RULE- > LEAD, and five minutes to learn the AXIS-LEAD. I'd guess Tom that's because your students have an able teacher. This issue is simply Easy to Learn v. Easy to Teach. The poor teacher finds it much easier to teach a rule instead of the lead, whether for cross, giro, or any other step for which an analytic explanation has been fabricated. > whether the cross is part of the giro, a > structured pattern, or an improvised walk. Yeah, it explains a few > things, but who cares, really beyond Tango-L arguers? Everyone who buys those tango scientology seminars, evidently ;) Chris ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Should automatic crossing, or automatic anything, be discouraged?
People keep talking at cross-purposes, but Laurie's coments below point out that things are different for different people, different situations, different levels and different styles. What is necessary for a beginner is insufficient for an intermediate, and doesn't makes sense for an advanced. Most teachers tend to analyze things teach at THEIR level rather than teaching in layers appropriate for the different levels. And, judging from this list, tango teachers are an analytical, over-educated, over- verbal bunchh RULE-LEAD vs AXIS-LEAD CROSS The "RULE CROSS" (aka after two steps outside...) functions for beginners, but I find it teaches them to count, and that is harder to learn than feeling for what signals the cross. For more experienced people the "RULE" applies in the sense that it is such a common move, she just comes to expect the cross whenever he goes outside. Therefore, the not-cross becomes a critical lead. AXIS: A far better instruction for beginners is to teach lead for the cross using a diagonal shift of the axis, which enables the "in-line" cross and very subtle "right-side crosses" as well as, leading the "not- cross". A new beginner has the precision to lead and not lead crosses with great subtlety. SPIRAL: I'm very much against using the mans' spiral to lead the cross as I find this teaches very gross (if not grotesque) movements with the men over leading and the ladies losing their ability to follow the axis. For me, the spiral is how the man FOLLOWS the cross, not leads it. This is a very luscious connection that feels very connected. However it is an adv-beginner or intermediate skill. Comparing the "RULE CROSS" with the "FOLLOW HIS AXIS CROSS", I find that it takes 30 or 40 minutes for new beginners to learn the RULE- LEAD, and five minutes to learn the AXIS-LEAD. That is 30 minutes lost where they could be learning rhythm or music or lead-follow. Also, the AXIS-LEAD is experiential and intuitive, whereas the RULE- LEAD is mental and analytical. I do everything possible to keep people moving, in their physical bodies, and not thinking too much. I'm in the school of "Lead the cross; Lead the not-cross". This has the advantage that the ladies are taught to wait on the cusp of the decision, so the lead-follow can be more subtle. As followers get better, NUEVO ANALYSIS Gustavo and the others of the nuevo school are very analytical teachers, which is great fun for the teachers in this forum. But, to use the concept of the giro to explain the cross is useless for a beginner. They can hardly stand up, let alone learn ochos, and the giro has to come after ochos. In any case, depending on the situation, the giro is frequently distorted, (the cross is sort of a front ocho, theoretically) so only the curious really care whether the cross is part of the giro, a structured pattern, or an improvised walk. Yeah, it explains a few things, but who cares, really beyond Tango-L arguers? On Aug 26, 2007, at 2:09 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > ...In my view (and I'm from the UK not the USA), the lady should > never cross > > automatically. In fact she should never do anything automatically > (unless > > she has been given the 'over to you signal', or has indicated that she > > wishes to do firuletes or something else of her choice). > > > ... On every step, the lady will have no idea what > > is going to come next. She has to wait for a lead. That wait is > commonly > > only a fraction of a second, but it is a wait. > > > ...Of course, with a a lady who walks to the beat (unless > otherwise led) > > and does not cross until it is indicated, there are many more > conversational > > and communicative possibilities. I’d happily discuss on another > occasion the > > many possibilities that getting into and out of the cross present, > but I have > > rabbited on long enough for one posting. > > Laurie (Laurence) > > 24 August 2007 > ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Daniel Borelli in Buenos Aires milongas
Here is Dany's schedule as DJ in the milongas: Lunes/Monday: Nuevo Salon La Argentina milonga - El Arranque organizer Juan Carlos La Falce Bme Mitre 1759 y Callao 15-22hs entrada: $5 women, $7 men Miercoles/Wednesday: Lo de Celia organizer Celia Blanco Humberto Primo 1783 y Entre Rios 18-23,30hs entrada: $5 Jueves/Thursday: Casa de Galicia milonga Chique organizer Julio Auliel San Jose 224 y Alsina 16-23hs Viernes/Fridays: Lo de Celia 22-3,30hs entrada: $8 Sabado/Saturday: Lo de Celia 23-4,30hs entrada $8 Domingo/Sunday: Club Ciudad milonga La Barranca organizers Maria Ester & Juan Carlos Av. Libertador 7501 21hs. entrada $12 Viviana La Falce took over on Sundays for Dany when Lo de Celia reopened because he had a commitment with La Barranca. Vivi was trained by Dany, but I feel she sets the volume too high. I begged her to lower the sound level a few weeks ago since it was blasting, but she wouldn't. You know it's too loud when you have to shout to be heard by the person seated next to you. I had to wear earplugs the entire night to survive. She is DJ at her father's milonga El Arranque on Saturdays. Janis Kenyon Buenos Aires ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] V Campeonato -- American Couple Finalists at World Tango Championship - ABC News
Hi all! Check out this article on American Finalists Eduardo Goytia and Cyrena Drusine at the World Tango Championship. http://www.abcnews.go.com/International/International/story?id=3523643&page=1 There are also related stories on judging a tango competition and tango tourism. We have talked with Eduardo and with Colette & Richard (last years American representatives) before they went to their competitions. All of them were so excited to be going to BsAs and to share their tango, that one can't help but be happy for them and for all of the contestants. Trini de Pittsburgh --- Janis Kenyon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I'm listening to 2x4 radio while reading email and just > heard that 37 > couples made it to the finals of the salon category after > dancing two nights > of semifinal rounds before two judging panels. Among the > countries > represented are Italy, Russia, Colombia, Spain, and the > United States. > > Eduardo Goytia and Cyrena Drusine from New York made it > to the finals. The > results will be announced around midnight on Sunday and > posted to the > website. PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburghs most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Expanding social dancing to exhibition level?
OK, I give up - Chris, if you don't want to listen or hear, or understand - then you won't. I've wasted enough time on you and I suspect Manuel feels the same way. Just one last word - I've never mentioned prescribed sequences - only one - the Giro. And it's one that everyone in Tango understands - except you and possibly a handful of others. And one more word - I would really love to see you leading a complicated Giro - for example, with a few double-times and a few Sacadas, maybe including a Barrida or a Planeo. And all the time you're leading front cross, opening. back cross, opening, front cross, etc etc. But I suspect I've gone way beyond your level. And one more word - yes, the man leads each and every step of the Giro. But the lead for the Giro is the same regardless of which step is being made, because the woman knows the next step of a Giro. That's what I mean, but I suspect you already knew that. OK, that's my last word. Keith, HK On Sun Aug 26 19:07 , "Chris, UK" sent: >> The man leads the Giro and the woman dances it. What >> is so difficult to understand about that? > >The word "lead", for starters. I think it is agreed what it means in >improvised tango, but in your world of prescribed sequences, not even >the Prescribers themselves agree e.g.: > >Manuel: "Obviously the man is leading the woman to take each and every step" >Keith: "leading every individual step of the Giro is BS" > >> Chris - do you actually know how to lead a Giro without having to lead >> every individual step? > >Nope. I leave that to the weak leaders who rely on the girl doing >the prescribed sequence. > >Chris >___ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L@mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Scenes from the milonga
Chris, UK Do you ever stop complaining? Keith, HK On Sun Aug 26 19:09 , "Chris, UK" sent: >> Lo de Celia is the place I call my second home. ... Dany Borelli, the best >> DJ in >> BsAs, greeted us with a kiss. Viviana at the bar welcomed us. > >Where's Dany lately? Last weekend the DJ was Viviana, and the music too loud. >___ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L@mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Scenes from the milonga
Dany was at Chique on Thursday as always. He's also the DJ at El Arranque on Mondays. Don't know what happend to him at Celia's. http://tangocherie.blogspot.com/ In a message dated 8/26/07 8:12:14 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > Lo de Celia is the place I call my second home. ... Dany Borelli, the > best DJ in > > BsAs, greeted us with a kiss. Viviana at the bar welcomed us. > > Where's Dany lately? Last weekend the DJ was Viviana, and the music too > loud. > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > > Cherie (54) 11 4932-5027 http://tangocherie.blogspot.com/ ** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango-Tokyo
hi all - am on my way to tokyo and kyoto - anyone speaking english and |or french who can recommend good milongas in either place? have been to tokyo before and didnt seem to find any top notch, well attended ones - merci ! andrea ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Expanding social dancing to exhibition level?
> The man leads the Giro and the woman dances it. What > is so difficult to understand about that? The word "lead", for starters. I think it is agreed what it means in improvised tango, but in your world of prescribed sequences, not even the Prescribers themselves agree e.g.: Manuel: "Obviously the man is leading the woman to take each and every step" Keith: "leading every individual step of the Giro is BS" > Chris - do you actually know how to lead a Giro without having to lead > every individual step? Nope. I leave that to the weak leaders who rely on the girl doing the prescribed sequence. Chris ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Scenes from the milonga
> Lo de Celia is the place I call my second home. ... Dany Borelli, the best > DJ in > BsAs, greeted us with a kiss. Viviana at the bar welcomed us. Where's Dany lately? Last weekend the DJ was Viviana, and the music too loud. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Ah, Sweet Mystery...
One of the greatest aspects of tango is that it is individualistic and we are encouraged to develop our own style. One of the most confusing aspects of tango is that it is individualistic and we are encouraged to create our own style. Without standardization (not that there should or could be) there are multiple interpretations of what is “correct” and “authentic” thereby creating instant disagreement when stating that this or that is always (or never) never done, or that there is no such thing as this or that. It is highly likely that someone who is respected by students and peers is teaching a move, figure or technique or concept in the exact opposite (or very different) way than we might have learned it. In my 16 years' experience, reputable Masters and respected teachers have proclaimed various combinations of the following: the cross is led; the cross is automatic; there is to be no leading with the hands; there is leading from the hand/fingers on the woman’s back; the woman changes weight immediately when led to cross; the woman waits for the invitation to change weight when led to the cross position; each step of a giro is led so the leader can maintain control of timing and change direction at will; the giro is done in coded sequence until the man stops turning; the man reaches forward with and lands on the ball of the foot; the man lands gently on the heel of his foot; small steps are authentic; large steps are correct; and of course, a large back step is the correct salida; the back step should never be used. To mention a few. How each is dealt with depends on the source of training and preference of the leader. If they have learned only one method, that is how they will set up or lead the cross, etc. Men who have received training in a variety of methods have options. (I've never known a man to change from leading the cross to expecting it to be automatic, but I have known many who now lead it although they first learned that it was to be automatic.) In one of my earliest “Aha” moments, while dancing with a visiting Master, he crossed out to my right, walked straight ahead a few steps, then subtly led the cross by slightly rotating his axis, which in turn rotated mine, and set me up for the cross. When I described this pleasant phenomenon to fellow enthusiasts, they vehemently disagreed that that is what had occurred. We had learned that the follower automatically crosses on step #5 of the 8CB and that a leader would never walk on that side of the frame. However, it was a moment of great enlightenment in my tango life and was completely in sync with the premise that every step in tango done through lead and follow. In another amazing moment relatively early on, although my partner was built like a linebacker, he danced like a stealthy feline. At one point he ever so slightly lifted my torso and after guiding me through tiny increments of space, gently released the tension and lowered my weight to the cross on the exact final beat of the phrase. It was exquisite and significantly heightened my awareness of how magical the cross can be. Just because we haven't experienced or do not understand a particular idea or way of doing something does not mean that it doesn't exist or lacks merit; and our disagreement with a method or system does not invalidate it or negate it for those do understand and agree with it. H, sounds a lot like life. Polly McBride, Portland OR Author: All Things Argentine Tango Tango with Mars and Venus Tango Festival Operations Manual (with Clay Nelson) (Google my name for more info.) ** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Should automatic crossing, or automatic anything, be discouraged?
Trini asked a question and Manuel answered. I shall give my own answer and it is different from the one given by Manuel. In my view (and I'm from the UK not the USA), the lady should never cross automatically. In fact she should never do anything automatically (unless she has been given the 'over to you signal', or has indicated that she wishes to do firuletes or something else of her choice). The general reason is that at the end of every step (at the point at which both partners have 'gathered', 'collected' or whatever word you use to describe the part of a step when the weight has been transferred to the man's front foot (lady's back). On every step, the lady will have no idea what is going to come next. She has to wait for a lead. That wait is commonly only a fraction of a second, but it is a wait. For example, if she is in the cross, he may step forward, backward, sideways, swivel, turn his shoulder so that she swivels, lift her for a colgada or whatever. He may be about to walk forward inside, outside, in parallel, or in crossed. He may be about to lead a cunita, a forward ocho, a backwards ocho, a forward giro, a backwards giro, a front or rear sacada, ochos cortadas, or whatever. That is part of the richness of Tango. If she has chosen to do her own thing, the partners cease to be a couple and become two individuals – usually uncoordinated and non-communicating individuals. Tango is, in my view, a conversation between two bodies, but without words. As in all conversations, the content of the communication comes in the surprises. If, in a normal conversation you could predict exactly what your interlocutor would say in all circumstances, I would not describe it as a conversation. It would be (a) a series of set-piece monologues (b) non-communicating, and (c) boring. The conversational element occurs when something unexpected enters into the exchange. If the lady does not know what is coming next (until it is led), everything is unexpected. With regard to the cross, if the lady crosses automatically it cuts down on the richness of the potential conversation. If she does it as a response to a lead, it is part of the conversation – like saying “I see”, “Yes, but”, “On the other hand”, “Therefore” or any of the other connections that we use in verbal conversations. Any of those phrases make sense only in response to an utterance by the partner. They make no sense in isolation. Similarly, a cross makes no sense in isolation. Of course, at milongas one sometimes dances with ladies who have been taught to cross whenever they get the opportunity. If the man wishes to lead in that situation, he has to treat it like any of the other variables at play – the closeness of the embrace, the balance of the lady, the conditions on the floor, the music, the state of inebriation of either partner, etc. and do something about it. For such ladies, a simple solution is not to give her an opportunity to cross until you wish it to happen. One way of doing that is to crowd the outside of her right thigh with the outside of your right thigh. In that situation she will be unable to cross. When you stop the crowding and make space for her, she will cross – and you will be ready for it. Of course, with a a lady who walks to the beat (unless otherwise led) and does not cross until it is indicated, there are many more conversational and communicative possibilities. I’d happily discuss on another occasion the many possibilities that getting into and out of the cross present, but I have rabbited on long enough for one posting. Brazos tangueros Laurie (Laurence) 24 August 2007 Get a FREE AOL Email account with unlimited storage. Plus, share and store photos and experience exclusively recorded live music Sessions from your favourite artists. Find out more at http://info.aol.co.uk/joinnow/?ncid=548. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] To lead or not to lead the cross
Christopher, I hate to repeat myself but the LF foot cross of the Giro to left requires a woman's hip-turn to right. Your description of step 5 of the 8CB has a woman's hip-turn to left. That's not just a variation but a completely different step and destroys Gustavo's theory that the 8CB follows the same code as a Giro to left. Gustavo says, quite forcefully, that your method of leading step 5 of the 8CB is WRONG. I still have the video - he slaps his fist into his palm and says your method will cause the couple to collide and puts them in a position that is very difficult to get out of. Now, I can understand your reticence at being at odds with Gustavo, but just saying ... "There's no disagreement" won't make it go away. You're going to have to do better than that. Keith, HK On Sun Aug 26 6:15 , [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent: >There's no disagreement. Counts 3 to 6 of the 8CD are certainly a >variation on back, open, front, side. > >Christopher > >On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 15:33:57 -0400, "Keith" [EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: >> Dear All, >> >> Leading the cross is certainly an interesting subject. >> >> Manuel and Huck are adherents of Gustavoâs theory that the first 5 >> steps of the 8CB, up to and including the cross, follow the >> code of the Giro to left. As a result, at the time of the cross, the >> lady will turn her hips a little to the right and this is how Gustavo >> teaches it. He specifically states that for the woman to turn to the >> left is wrong, as this is contrary to the code of the Giro. >> >> But, recently, Christopher and Sergio have both stated that to cross is >> best led by a body turn to the left. >> >> Can I ask how Manuel and Huck lead the cross and whether they think, >> like Gustavo, that Christopher and Sergio are >> wrong? Or, are there many ways to lead the cross and Gustavo's theory is >> not set in stone? >> >> Keith, HK >> >> >> On Sat Aug 25 23:40 , "Sergio Vandekier" sent: >> >> > >> >If you want to lead the cross in tango you may do so, and this does not >> >interfere at all with the dance. All you need to do is at step # 4 of the >> >base, you walk slightly diagonally away from the lady and turn your chest >> >slightly from your right to straight to the LOD (as described by somebody >> >before). >> > >> >> >> >There are many ways to dance tango. >> > >> >Best regards, Sergio >> >> >> Christopher writes on 24 August: >> >> If he twists his spine so that his chest points a bit to the >> right of the LOD at an angle, then she need not cross to keep >> the frame. In that situation, I would expect her to twist her >> to the right so our chests remain parallel while she walks in >> the direction I lead. If so, when she steps back with her >> right leg, it will open a bit, and when she steps back with >> her left leg, she will cross in back a bit. >> >> If the man should decide he does after all want her to cross, >> then all he has to do is untwist his spine so that it points >> directly down the LOD again, and she must cross to stay in >> the frame. >> >> >> ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
