Re: [Tango-L] Who's leading?
Fortune, Despite what some people think, what you are feeling as a beginner is farely common. I've found that many beginning followers prefer a strong lead. A less rude way of saying what possibly Keith was getting at, is that as your skills improve, what you want from a lead may change. Also, a lot of teachers recommend that new followers close their eyes, which helps them concentrate on what they are feeling from the lead. One thing I've learned since taking up tango, is that there's an awful lot of contradictory advice out there. I think some people haven't realized that just because they learned something one way, that doesn't mean it's the only way to learn it. Take care, and enjoy the journey. -- >From: Keith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Who's leading? >Fortune, >Since you're already expecting flames, please let me be the first. >3 weeks of classes and you already know what you need from the lead. Wow, that's impressive. >Might I suggest that you concentrate on what you need to learn as a follow before you start telling your leads what they should be doing. >What you say happens to be correct but I suspect it's what you've been told rather than what you actually know from experience. Excluding your teacher I doubt if you can recognise a good leader from one of the many morons who manhandle the beginner girls around the floor. The worst dancer here can impress beginners. But after 3 months, they'll never dance with him again. >Finally, please don't judge all the leads by comparison with how well your teacher leads you. Otherwise you'll be in for a world of disappointments and you may end up not dancing with anybody. You're a beginner - expect to dance with beginners and don't think too much of yourself. >And, IMHO, a beginner of 3 weeks who closes her eyes just looks stupid. >Keith, HK -- On Fri Sep 21 1:18 , "fortune elkins" sent: >As a total newbie, who has been taking classes for about 3 weeks, let >me say that I personally benefit from a lead who knows who he is, >where he wants to go, isn't afraid to be Tango Man and give a clear >lead. I personally find I dance much better when I can zone out, >listen to the music, close my eyes, and just focus on the leading >signals. > >But that requires the lead to LEAD ME. HE HAS GOT TO DRIVE. Then the >dance looks like tango and not say, jitterbug. Thank god tango seems a >refuge from political correctness. > >This is my first post, but I am equipped for the inevitable flames >that will come my way. (grin) All I can say is, if any patient guy >with a clear assertive lead is around, that's the one I hope to dance >with! ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Strong Lead
Dchester, The lead. Antonyms: Strong and Weak, right? There is only one way for the good lead: Strong. Weak lead is not lead. Strong but gentle and sensitive. It can be soft or sharp, insisting or freeing. But it is always strong. Strong lead does not mean rough, it does not mean unconsidering, it does not mean inexperienced, it does not mean "not with the rhythm", it does not mean shaky, it does not mean uncomfortable. Opposite to all of that. But lead is strong. Otherwise it is not lead. Good Strong Lead is gentle, sensitive, soft or sharp, considering, done with the great deal of experience, knowing what to do, precisely with rhythm, very stable, very comfortable, giving clear signals, playing with the womans resistance, surprising her, carring her, freeing her for anything she wants, moving her body and soul. That what it means - Strong Lead. And by the way, men - do not forget to dance while you are leading ! Otherwise it is not a dance. Igor Polk ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead
I have heard the word 'strong' used very differently about leading (although I agree with you Igor on weak leading). A lot of times women will refer to a 'strong' lead as a lead who uses a lot of pressure (resistance) in the embrace/frame/arms and maybe 'steers' the follow's body with the frame and or the hand on the back (as opposed to leading with the chest and body placement). People prefer different amounts of resistance in dance, although I think the more advanced the dancer, the less resistance is desired, because it allows more nuance. Igor Polk wrote: > Dchester, > > The lead. Antonyms: Strong and Weak, right? > > There is only one way for the good lead: Strong. Weak lead is not lead. > > Strong but gentle and sensitive. > > It can be soft or sharp, insisting or freeing. > > But it is always strong. > > Strong lead does not mean rough, it does not mean unconsidering, it does not > mean inexperienced, it does not mean "not with the rhythm", it does not mean > shaky, it does not mean uncomfortable. > Opposite to all of that. > > But lead is strong. Otherwise it is not lead. > > Good Strong Lead is gentle, sensitive, soft or sharp, considering, done with > the great deal of experience, knowing what to do, precisely with rhythm, > very stable, very comfortable, giving clear signals, playing with the womans > resistance, surprising her, carring her, freeing her for anything she wants, > moving her body and soul. > That what it means - Strong Lead. > > > And by the way, men - do not forget to dance while you are leading ! > Otherwise it is not a dance. > > Igor Polk > > > > > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > -- Carol Ruth Shepherd Arborlaw PLC Ann Arbor MI USA 734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f Arborlaw - a legal blog for entrepreneurs and small business http://arborlaw.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead
We are not talking about beginner's problems here, right Carol? Steering with arms is a feature of a Weak Lead no matter how paradoxically it sounds. More advanced dancer is not characterized that he or she uses less resistance, but with that that More advanced dancer is able to use broader range of resistance to fit to music, dancing style, partner, and his own pleasure. Igor Polk. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango-L Digest, Vol 18, Issue 20
Christopher, Could you elaborate on your second paragraph below? I do not think I understand completely what you are getting at. Michael > > Message: 13 > Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 18:03:28 -0500 > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] what makes milonguero, milonguero > > In other words: > > Draw a circle and label it "Salon", then draw a smaller circle > inside that, label that as "Close Embrace", then inside the > second circle draw a third you can finally label "Milonguero". > > The Milonguero Circle is the set of limitations imposed by > accelerating decrepitude and dancing in tight quarters in > BA over the last 20 or so years. Of course, there is the > additional set of circumstances that most new "Milonguero" > dancers ape the styles of the lucky few dancers that found > a style many of their partners enjoy or ended up in a movie. > > For those of us with a bit more space and athletic ability > (mostly balance), we have more possibilities, and we should > use them to develop our own styles, inside the limitations > that the social norms of tango impose, of course. > > Christopher > > ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
I missed that, sorry.. Carol: "the more advanced the dancer, the less resistance is desired, because it allows more nuance." Actually it is opposite: Stronger resistance in body and in hands allows way more nuances. Incomparably more ! And there is strong scientific substantiation to that. Your view Carol is widespread, but just wish you to experience what I am talking about. Igor Polk ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead
Igor(me) said previously: "Steering with arms is a feature of a Weak Lead no matter how paradoxically it sounds." I take it back, sorry. Steering is NO LEAD. Week lead means a guy is on the right path to the good strong lead, but still too weak - unclear, not enough energy, not percise, forgetting about the lady. Just a bit more work - and it will improve! Become Strong. Igor Polk ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
Igor: I agree completely with Carol that less resistance is desired. Resistance causes muscles to tense and when they tense, it's difficult to move them. However, you wrote that there is strong scientific substantiation. Where is the substantiation. Michael I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango - Original Message - From: "Igor Polk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect I missed that, sorry.. Carol: "the more advanced the dancer, the less resistance is desired, because it allows more nuance." Actually it is opposite: Stronger resistance in body and in hands allows way more nuances. And there is strong scientific substantiation to that. Igor Polk ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
Dear Michael I am so sorry you have no idea what resistance is.. Once you learn it, you will find it for yourself that you do not need any "substantiation". You just will not want to dance in any other way. Still, there is substantiation. I wrote quite a lot about in on my website. Not complete yet, sorry.. Igor Polk -Original Message- From: Michael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 12:23 To: Igor Polk; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: tango-l@mit.edu; Michael Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect Igor: I agree completely with Carol that less resistance is desired. Resistance causes muscles to tense and when they tense, it's difficult to move them. However, you wrote that there is strong scientific substantiation. Where is the substantiation. Michael I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango - Original Message - From: "Igor Polk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect I missed that, sorry.. Carol: "the more advanced the dancer, the less resistance is desired, because it allows more nuance." Actually it is opposite: Stronger resistance in body and in hands allows way more nuances. And there is strong scientific substantiation to that. Igor Polk ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
Igor: I now exactly what resistance is-- and why it's bad for dancing. There's a big difference between a firm lead--and resistance. Why would I want a woman to resist my lead? I want my partner and I to move around the floor like figure skaters, effortlessly, with minimal effort. Resistance causes muscles to tense and it's difficult to move a tense muscle. I went to a yoga therapist for three years to squeeze the tension out of my body, there was so much. I am so sorry you feel you have to dance with resistance. I'm even sorrier for your partners who have to dance with resistance. Michael I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango - Original Message - From: "Igor Polk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'Michael'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "'Igor Polk'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 3:48 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect Dear Michael I am so sorry you have no idea what resistance is.. Once you learn it, you will find it for yourself that you do not need any "substantiation". You just will not want to dance in any other way. Still, there is substantiation. I wrote quite a lot about in on my website. Not complete yet, sorry.. Igor Polk -Original Message- From: Michael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 12:23 To: Igor Polk; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: tango-l@mit.edu; Michael Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect Igor: I agree completely with Carol that less resistance is desired. Resistance causes muscles to tense and when they tense, it's difficult to move them. However, you wrote that there is strong scientific substantiation. Where is the substantiation. Michael I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango - Original Message - From: "Igor Polk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect I missed that, sorry.. Carol: "the more advanced the dancer, the less resistance is desired, because it allows more nuance." Actually it is opposite: Stronger resistance in body and in hands allows way more nuances. And there is strong scientific substantiation to that. Igor Polk ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
-- Original message -- From: "Igor Polk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I missed that, sorry.. > > Carol: "the more advanced the dancer, the > less resistance is desired, because it allows more nuance." > > Actually it is opposite: Stronger resistance in body and in hands allows way > more nuances. > Incomparably more ! > > And there is strong scientific substantiation to that. > > Your view Carol is widespread, but just wish you to experience what I am > talking about. > > Igor Polk -- Original message -- From: "Igor Polk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I missed that, sorry.. > > Carol: "the more advanced the dancer, the > less resistance is desired, because it allows more nuance." > > Actually it is opposite: Stronger resistance in body and in hands allows way > more nuances. > Incomparably more ! > > And there is strong scientific substantiation to that. > > Your view Carol is widespread, but just wish you to experience what I am > talking about. What kind of resistance are you talking about and how much though? I don't agree with resisting, except for teaching an absolute beginner, and even then I would get them to gradually back off. Are you confusing firmness with resistance? Being firm in the frame means an instantaneous resistance at the moment of lead for a turn say, but this is mild. One master teacher said 2lbs (less than 1Kg) of pressure at the instant of turn, and then back to nothing. Constantly resisting is tedious over time. There is such a thing as core strength that allows a person to feel and sense the subtlety of their dance partner much more easily. This is not resistance though. The very best dancers I have ever danced with provided little to no resistance, yet were incredibly sensitive. I used to require back pressure as a beginning leader. Now, I really dislike that style of dancing - I'm not a beefy male, and dancing with someone who weighs the same as I do and provides a lot of continuous resis tance in either step or frame is incredibly tiring. There's also the possibility of injury if you're talking about constant frame pressure -muscle injuries are not uncommon. Randy ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] HELP! ...on an old posting
Club ~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ ~ Dani Iannarelli ~ Dear Tangueros, I once wrote an article for you lot on the List, called "Smelly Dancing" (I think). It was, basically, about personal hygiene in relationship to dancing tango. Unfortunately, I had a problem with my computer a while back and lost all of my previous Tango-L postings as my emails were not backed-up. Does anyone, by any slim chance, still have a copy of the postings I sent out (there were also a few 'top-ups' to the original posting)...? If so, I would really appreciate if you could forward them all on to me. Thanks. Very best wishes Dani ~ `El Zorro de Tango' >:-) ~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.tango-la-dolce-vita.eu Yahoo Group: http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/clubtango-ladolcevita Online photogalleries: http://www.flickr.com/photos/club_tango-la-dolce-vita/ http://www.flickr.com/people/club_tango-la-dolce-vita/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
First, I want to thank Igor for bringing this up, more or less bolding going where no man has gone before (I exaggerate, of course.) I came close to commenting on a light is characteristic of better dancers post a short time ago. "Resistance" creates a better connection between two bodies. It can help create a feeling of two bodies being joined so well that the man feels the woman's steps almost as if they are his own. It is similar to the sense we have of where the parts of our own body are - proprioception. (Good posture and clear transfer of weigh when stepping are also required.) I have seen over and over again, that women learn to "give more resistance" from their instructors. As time goes on, they forget this lesson as they are told repeatedly by male dancers that they are "being too heavy". This is think of as the community leveling effect. There seems to be a desire to achieve technical excellence and the ability to follow with barely a touch. This comes at the expense of the more earthy feeling of two bodies being joined in dance. And, as Igor points out (I think), it also comes at the expense of eliminating some movement vocabulary. This "lite" form of tango, to me, has more of a intellectual flavor. I've begun to think of it as "Nice Tango". And, by the way, more resistance can be achieved without "muscle tension", just as running downhill can be done without much effort by letting gravity move your body. Neither way of dancing AT is more right, except in the preferences of the dancer. I prefer more resistance, rather than less. I admit though, that I too, am awaiting Igor's post on scientific evidence. The complexities of the human body have so far defied my feeble attempts at quantification. Michael <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Igor: I now exactly what resistance is-- and why it's bad for dancing. There's a big difference between a firm lead--and resistance. Why would I want a woman to resist my lead? I want my partner and I to move around the floor like figure skaters, effortlessly, with minimal effort. Resistance causes muscles to tense and it's difficult to move a tense muscle. I went to a yoga therapist for three years to squeeze the tension out of my body, there was so much. I am so sorry you feel you have to dance with resistance. I'm even sorrier for your partners who have to dance with resistance. Michael I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango - Original Message - From: "Igor Polk" To: "'Michael'" ; "'Igor Polk'" ; Cc: Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 3:48 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect Dear Michael I am so sorry you have no idea what resistance is.. Once you learn it, you will find it for yourself that you do not need any "substantiation". You just will not want to dance in any other way. Still, there is substantiation. I wrote quite a lot about in on my website. Not complete yet, sorry.. Igor Polk -Original Message- From: Michael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 12:23 To: Igor Polk; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: tango-l@mit.edu; Michael Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect Igor: I agree completely with Carol that less resistance is desired. Resistance causes muscles to tense and when they tense, it's difficult to move them. However, you wrote that there is strong scientific substantiation. Where is the substantiation. Michael I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango - Original Message - From: "Igor Polk" To: Cc: Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect I missed that, sorry.. Carol: "the more advanced the dancer, the less resistance is desired, because it allows more nuance." Actually it is opposite: Stronger resistance in body and in hands allows way more nuances. And there is strong scientific substantiation to that. Igor Polk ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l - Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] HELP! ...on an old posting
There is a searchable archive of Tango-L posts at http://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/ J TangoMoments.com > Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 20:55:04 +> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: > tango-l@mit.edu> Subject: [Tango-L] HELP! ...on an old posting> > Club > ~Tango*La Dolce Vita~> ~ Dani Iannarelli ~> > Dear Tangueros,> > I once wrote > an article for you lot on the List, called "Smelly Dancing" (I think). It > was, basically, about personal hygiene in relationship to dancing tango. > Unfortunately, I had a problem with my computer a while back and lost all of > my previous Tango-L postings as my emails were not backed-up.> > Does anyone, > by any slim chance, still have a copy of the postings I sent out (there were > also a few 'top-ups' to the original posting)...? If so, I would really > appreciate if you could forward them all on to me.> > Thanks.> > Very best > wishes> Dani ~> `El Zorro de Tango' >:-)> > ~Tango*La Dolce Vita~> > > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> Website: http://www.tango-la-dolce-vita.eu> Yahoo > Group: http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/clubtango-ladolcevita> Online > photogalleries: http://www.flickr.com/photos/club_tango-la-dolce-vita/> > http://www.flickr.com/people/club_tango-la-dolce-vita/> > ___> Tango-L mailing list> > Tango-L@mit.edu> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l _ More photos; more messages; more whatever – Get MORE with Windows Live™ Hotmail®. NOW with 5GB storage. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_5G_0907 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
Maybe you can use this, Igor. Excerpt from a PhD thesis... Understanding the Haptic Interactions of Working Together Kyle Brandon Reed This is about haptic communication "communicating by touch". Kyle is a Lindy Hop dancer, too. There is much, much, more in this article. I found this excerpt with a quick search for "of forces". Somewhere she has "definition of forces", too. In some applications, forces can relay vital information. If the perception of forces is reduced, as in Shergill el al.âs study, or the transfer of forces is hindered, communication can be significantly diminished. Fly-By-Wire (FBW), a design for airplane control, eliminates the direct mechanical connection (and thus the forces) between the pilot and the planeâs control surfaces and also between the two pilots. Depending on the configuration and design of the FBW system, the flight sticks allow little or no haptic interaction between pilots. Summers et al. [94] conducted a series of experiments on pilots using a Flight Simulator at NASA Ames Research Center. They examined four different cases, ranked by the pilots in order from most preferred to least preferred: coupled, uncoupled with a disconnect switch, uncoupled with priority logic (essentially the largest input wins), and uncoupled (average of inputs). The pilots significantly preferred the coupled (haptic) FBW more than the uncoupled (non-haptic) FBW. They also found a significant performance decrement when using uncoupled FBW. Igor Polk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Dear Michael I am so sorry you have no idea what resistance is.. Once you learn it, you will find it for yourself that you do not need any "substantiation". You just will not want to dance in any other way. Still, there is substantiation. I wrote quite a lot about in on my website. Not complete yet, sorry.. Igor Polk -Original Message- From: Michael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 12:23 To: Igor Polk; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: tango-l@mit.edu; Michael Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect Igor: I agree completely with Carol that less resistance is desired. Resistance causes muscles to tense and when they tense, it's difficult to move them. However, you wrote that there is strong scientific substantiation. Where is the substantiation. Michael I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango - Original Message - From: "Igor Polk" To: Cc: Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect I missed that, sorry.. Carol: "the more advanced the dancer, the less resistance is desired, because it allows more nuance." Actually it is opposite: Stronger resistance in body and in hands allows way more nuances. And there is strong scientific substantiation to that. Igor Polk ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l - Don't let your dream ride pass you by.Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
I agree with Igor, but what is resistance? Should the follower forcefully resist? Or it is just the inertial resistance, according to the physics? I am convinced it is the inertia only, plus the desired constant force, created from the slight leaning that is always recommended - but this is not resistance by will. The follower is not resisting the movement, but by simply walking correctly, it may feel like resistance, but it's mainly inertial, and this helps keeping the good connection necessary. And yes, slight leaning is desired even in open embrace, and this is not limiting factor, it's a freeing one. - Original Message - From: "Igor Polk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 9:00 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect >I missed that, sorry.. > > Carol: "the more advanced the dancer, the > less resistance is desired, because it allows more nuance." > > Actually it is opposite: Stronger resistance in body and in hands allows > way > more nuances. > Incomparably more ! > > And there is strong scientific substantiation to that. > > Your view Carol is widespread, but just wish you to experience what I am > talking about. > > Igor Polk > > > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango-L Digest, Vol 18, Issue 20
Sure: When your body ages and you must dance in tight spaces, you have to give up a large amount of whatever repertoire you had when you were young, and had much more space to dance in. Sorry for being obtuse. Christopher On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 12:47:07 -0500, "michael doyle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > Christopher, > > Could you elaborate on your second paragraph below? I do not think I > understand completely what you are getting at. > > Michael > > > > > > > Message: 13 > > Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 18:03:28 -0500 > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] what makes milonguero, milonguero > > > > In other words: > > > > Draw a circle and label it "Salon", then draw a smaller circle > > inside that, label that as "Close Embrace", then inside the > > second circle draw a third you can finally label "Milonguero". > > > > The Milonguero Circle is the set of limitations imposed by > > accelerating decrepitude and dancing in tight quarters in > > BA over the last 20 or so years. Of course, there is the > > additional set of circumstances that most new "Milonguero" > > dancers ape the styles of the lucky few dancers that found > > a style many of their partners enjoy or ended up in a movie. > > > > For those of us with a bit more space and athletic ability > > (mostly balance), we have more possibilities, and we should > > use them to develop our own styles, inside the limitations > > that the social norms of tango impose, of course. > > > > Christopher > > > > > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
Sorry Steve, I forgot to send this one to the list... So here it is: Again, Please, do not confuse ability to work with higher resistance with strong lead. Strong lead is a totally different thing than high resistance. The next is true: Strong leader is able to manipulate with low or high resistance at ease. And resistance is always present. Low resistance does not mean NO Resistance. No resistance means as it is: no high, no low one. And answering your question in a short sentence, Michael and Steve, here is some substantiation ( very short ) High resistance in a body allows high frequency oscillation to be transmitted easier - it means making you more sensitive to changes in small movements or sharp movements. It allows feedback to the leader - he feels her much better. It is by far does not explain all the effects possible with high resistance. ( a little clarification to people unfamiliar what "oscillation" means in scientific sense. If means sharper, smaller signals are transmitted and reacted to better. Not necessarily real oscillating moves, just changes. It means - yes, sensitivity ). As Steve put it, it allows bodies to be unified in the dance like nothing else. In a way, resistance means answering to a man - affecting him, telling him "I am here, and I am listening, and I do what you want - in other words - Feedback. Low resistance is better for wider, slower moves, or when you feel like flying... High resistance is great for good milonga. I would say, essential. And for old Salon Style. The less space is for dancing, the higher resistance better. Or whatever which tickles your fancy - it is an art. Do what you want, but with it. Igor Polk. Ps Resistance does not mean blocking the movement. * * * About the paradox of "teachers insist on more resistance while experienced dancers insist on low resistance" 1. Teachers teach women resistance. It is one of the cornerstone of dancing - without it - it is impossible to dance. While the experienced dancers often are tired of over-resistance of student women. These women have not mastered yet what their teachers told them. So these dancers bring them to higher level, but they do really bad job for hard-working teachers if they insist on "no resistance at all". See 2. ( Again - over-tension is not a resistance ). 2. Dancing with resistance is at least a level up of average dancing skills I observe. A lot of people, especially men, do not know much about resistance and do not know how to handle over-resistance. That is bad, and I hope it will be remedies. I will put all my efforts in helping bringing good dancing back to life. * * * Thank you for the great "Fly-By-Wire" example, Steve !!! * * * If you want to read some more about it, please, read my old article http://www.virtuar.com/tango/articles/2005/looking_mirror.htm No newer one, sorry. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
On Sep 22, 2007, at 4:15 PM, Krasimir Stoyanov wrote: > I agree with Igor, but what is resistance? > Should the follower forcefully resist? Or it is just the inertial > resistance, according to the physics? Of course, connection can mean anything from light to heavy. This could be a light to heavy force, or light to heavy inertia, or light to heavy responsiveness, light or heavy groundedness. I personally agree with Igor that super-light is less helpful for connection, and I prefer that there be an actual, sometimes substantial sense of engaging (toning up?) between the partners. I have two points to make about this: (1) The woman (man also), has three important places of engagement: with the floor, with her partner, and within herself. Using these leverage points allows her to create a positive connection that can be used to communicate movement and other things. This connection can be modified in many ways. All the great followers I know use many or all of these possibilities: - by resisting movement or self-powering, - by allowing stationary or moving momentum to slow the changes of tempo - by leaning or being more vertical, - by pushing into the floor or pushing off, - by allowing a slower response or a more sprightly response. - by slowing or speeding up the speed of the moving leg - by resisting or releasing early or late in the movement - by resisting or releasing early or late in the music - by leaving a step or arriving to a step early or late with respect to the music or lead. (2) The manner in which the woman engages with her partner IS THE FIRST AND MOST INTERESTING decoration in tango. It is one of the most significant ways for the woman to express musicality. Decorating the connection is far more interesting than the visible decorations we usually think about. Tom Stermitz Denver & San Diego Tango Festivals http://www.tango.org ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
- Original Message - From: "Tom Stermitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Tango-L" Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 2:14 AM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect Some comments: > - by resisting movement or self-powering, This will effectively destroy the dance, both resisting or self-powering are LEADING, not following. > - by allowing stationary or moving momentum to slow the changes of > tempo Slow the changes of tempo? What do you mean by that? > - by leaning or being more vertical, In a tango danced correctly, the leader determines the lean, not the follower. This follows from the walking technique, the follower cannot manage the lean without doing incorrect things with the posture. > - by pushing into the floor or pushing off, This needs clarification, every body pushes into the floor, otherwise they will fall down. What is pushing off the floor? Changes of the height above the floor are very important instrument for the leader, so it is not correct for the follower to modulate it. > - by allowing a slower response or a more sprightly response. Correct walking while following simply reacts passively to the lead, if it is slow, the reaction is slow, etc. Slowing a lead is not something good for the dance, it destroys the rithm, and should be avoided, unless there is a serious reason. Sharping a slow, smooth lead is a disaster in most cases. > - by slowing or speeding up the speed of the moving leg I agree with this, but must be done very carefully. In fact, this is the only instrument for a follower to use freely - the moving leg. But still, it requires a lot of experience for it to work in a good manner. > - by resisting or releasing early or late in the movement This would be very bad thing unless the skill level is unbelievably high. And as we all do not posses such skills, it is not for us. > - by resisting or releasing early or late in the music Could you elaborate? > - by leaving a step or arriving to a step early or late with > respect to the music or lead. Possibly, but again - it is a high level skill. Usually this is simply bad follow. > (2) The manner in which the woman engages with her partner IS THE > FIRST AND MOST INTERESTING > decoration in tango. It is one of the most significant ways for the > woman to express musicality. Decorating the connection is far more > interesting than the visible decorations we usually think about. Interesting, could you tell us more about this idea? ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
