Re: [Tango-L] A man's feminine side: masculinity in tango!
Just so there's no misunderstanding, which seems to be common on Tango-L, I'd like to change a part of para. 4 to ... And, as with the athlete, whether or not the man shows emotion while dancing is irrelevent. What is important is whether or not he and his partner can feel it. Keith, HK On Tue Oct 2 13:28 , Keith sent: Michael, Sorry, but I disagree with almost everything you say. You say ... The problem seems to be that a man has to be a man. Why is that a problem? About the injured football player - yes he's being a man, not a whimpering cissy. As for emotion - every great athlete plays with emotion. Whether he shows it or not is irrelevent. But I can assure you that all his team-mates can feel it and are inspired by it. You say ... To me, connection and chemistry are always more important than figures. OK, we agree. But you then go on to say ... Masculinity concentrates on figures. I don't agree. To me, making the embrace and the connection is the epitome of masculinity. And, as with the athlete, whether or not the man shows emotion while dancing is irrelevent. What is important is whether or not his partner can feel it. Personally, I dislike it when men display emotion while dancing - why? - because it looks feminine and it often looks phoney. But because a man doesn't show emotion doesn't mean he doesn't feel it or that his partner doesn't feel it. And yes, I also love to feel a woman's heartbeat while dancing - that's Tango, and when you hold a woman that close you're definitely being a man. Keith, HK PS - Michael, if you mention your 3 years of yoga therapy one more time, I swear I'm gonna scream! On Tue Oct 2 9:46 , Michael sent: I've read plenty on the above subject and there seems to be complaints about a man being feminine or his feminine side showing. The problem seems to be that a man has to be a man. I guess a man has to dance like he's John Wayne! I paint stereotypes of the genders. A woman is weak because she publicly shows her feelings and a man is strong because he shows no emotion. The epitome of a man is an injured football player who tells the coach Put me in the game, coach! Only one kidney is injured. I carry an extra in reserve. If a man was to show an emotion, OMG, it would kill him. That's because many confuse weakness with softness. Thanks to 3 years of yoga therapy, I was able to let go of a lot of personal baggage that held me back from dancing-- and enjoying life. My teacher, Joe, told me before we can embrace others we have to embrace ourselves. To me, connection and chemistry are always more important than figures. Based on an informal, random survey of women in Denver and Washington years ago, women want connection and to feel special. The physical part, figures, was much less important. Men seem to concentrate inordinately on figures. If they can't execute it, it's a sign of weak manhood. I think this is the crux of the point about masculinity in tango. Masculinity concentrates on figures and femininity concentrates on emotions. But for a man to show emotion, he has to feel emotion. If feeling emotion is seen as feminine, well, what man wants to feel he's less of man because of his femininity. I've been lucky to sometimes feel my heartbeat, sometimes the woman's heartbeat. I remember dancing with Natasha in Florida. I dance close embrace. She taught me closer embrace. Figures meant nothing. I didn't want to do anything to break the embrace. I guess there is NO tango in Lake Wobegone, MN where all the women are strong all the men are good looking all the children are above average My favorite milonguero expression is: 4 legs 2 bodies 1 heart To dance tango is one thing. To feel tango is another. And to EXPERIENCE tango, words just can't describe it. Michael Ditkoff Washington, DC I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Help to find masculinity in Tango !
David wrote: beginners dancing with other beginners, is an extremely slow way of learning the tango. Slow, or stationary. It's like trying to start a fire by rubbing two sticks together. One day I hope to find a teacher who can explain the educational advantage (if any) of this method. -- Chris ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] A man's feminine side: masculinity in tango!
Michael wrote: I've read plenty on the above subject and there seems to be complaints about a man being feminine or his feminine side showing. The problem seems to be that a man has to be a man. I guess a man has to dance like he's John Wayne! I paint stereotypes of the genders. A woman is weak because she publicly shows her feelings and a man is strong because he shows no emotion. ?! I don't think so. Men don't show emotion because usually when confronted with a predator that is a sign of vulnerability. Don't think so? Go find a junkyard dog and whimper when it growls at you. This is basic mammalian behavior. That you (and a lot of people) are unfamiliar with it simply supports my contention that we live in an artificial enough environment that it is really no longer an issue. Or is it? More to the point emotions are largely choices (except in cases of pathologies, i.e. emotional problems). Having the discipline not to follow them at times is, I admit, a sign of strength. The stereotype we should battle is not of the man who can't engage his feelings, but the hysterical woman who is unable to function because of them. (Again this is a stereotype from the Victorian era and one that doesn't apply to other cultures. Let me tell you about my AK-47 toting Iranian friend in her burqa sometime.) So lemma see, we have Shakespeares, Beethovens and at least a few other guys who are anything but emotional cripples. You would have to work darn hard to convince me that any of the big tango bands (run by men) are free of emotion. Heck, that's what got me interested in tango is that raw quality. I would tender that the issue for men is that they feel emotions very keenly and must, with their native urges to violence, learn to keep them in check. The scandalously high murder and assault rates among males (and sadly, now females) are due in part to a vilification of self-control. No enraged ex-boyfriend needs to get in touch with his feelings, he needs to cool down and get a grip. This is what set the ethos for male behavior in times past. So in tango -- and here I go trying to hop back on the topic -- I posit that what the aim is, is for a male to be passionate at the same he is firmly and coolly in control. It is this tension I think women would find more interesting (and is most likely more like the milieu in which tango used to be done). Some soppy, mawkish and excessive dancing might impress some women, but from what I've seen it is most likely ego-stroking for the guy to show how authentic he is. Oh, I *never* have had anyone question my masculinity. I suspect that the original comment from Igor was someone taking a dig at him or possibly assuming that tango was just a subset of ballroom. The epitome of a man is an injured football player who tells the coach Put me in the game, coach! Only one kidney is injured. I carry an extra in reserve. As an athlete -- and a damn good one -- that fatuous example is simply wrong. One of my charges who acts like that would get a stern lecture from me all the way to the first aid station. Oh and I *do* know pro football players. They are a huge investment for their franchise and are very, very carefully tended. You don't cough up a million bucks a year for one and expect them to act like a moron. If a man was to show an emotion, OMG, it would kill him. That's because many confuse weakness with softness. Nope. I show emotion all the time. I just refuse to let the bad ones control me. Thanks to 3 years of yoga therapy, *Oh boy* yoga therapy. Geez... snip/ Men seem to concentrate inordinately on figures. If they can't execute it, it's a sign of weak manhood. A quote from Bruce Lee is in order here: A lack of understanding leads to embellishment. Yes, people (that includes women) who only do figures or furiously embellish everything normally are substituting that for a good understanding of the dance. Where the art lies -- and I could be wrong -- is in what the absolute minimum you need is. I've danced with more than my share of women that were I call ochOmatics, i.e., no matter what I did they did some sort of ocho. It was not possible to do anything expressive with them on the floor. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Igor's Question: a woman's perspective
Hello All, This is my first time posting... I don't like to be considered someone that lurks on the list without ever responding back... yes, I'm a bit of a voyeur. I enjoyed the Heel-Toe discussion that went on for far too long, etc. and was a bit dismayed that more of a discussion about perverts didn't linger longer. Such are the whims of a discussion list. Also, thankfully, most of us just have better things to do... like DANCE. But I thought I'd give my answer to your question, Igor. When I first started dancing tango a lot of women were nice and a lot weren't so nice to me. They have the basic societal issue of competition and were none too pleased there was yet another female to contend with. An attractive female the men wanted to dance with (no matter how unskilled I was) didn't help matters. I purposefully go out of my way to make sure that women, and especially attractive women, feel welcome and warm and accepted because of my lukewarm reception when I first started. I genuinely am happy to have them -- BTW, it doesn't matter what size you are, how old you are, how much money you have, etc. to be attractive. Just making the effort to look your best is all. Here I am, a woman, about to tell you what I think men are up to. Sorry to burst some of your bubbles... we women are smarter than we look. We also may not be exactly right in all cases so this is just my opinion. Thanks for allowing me to share it. Basically, men want to dance with attractive women that smell nice, are good conversationalists, etc. and make them feel good about themselves. When a guy is new, he doesn't have a clue about the proper embrace. A strong lead can take an inexperienced woman and make her look and FEEL great. A weak lead feels completely intimidated and like a blubbering idiot. I have over many years invited, coerced and bribed (with the promise of a date, if you will, for some fellow that actually learned tango) many men to visit our community with the goal of adding them to the Argentine Tango herd. I have grabbed them from West Coast Swing, East Coast Swing, Country/Western and my former boyfriend (before Tango became my boyfriend), Salsa. I've given free lessons, cheap lessons and encouraged them to go someplace else for group or private lessons, etc. They're consensus? Gosh, I hope you're sitting down. They didn't like the music. Okay, there, I've said it. Please don't get all your tailfeathers ruffled over yet another discussion about traditional, alternative, neo, nuevo, etc. on me. This isn't about that well-worn topic. Of the 40 or so men, NONE liked the music. They danced the other stuff because it was what they could hear a beat to, or dance to without thinking or whatever. What does that tell me? These guys dance to get laid. The go to hold women. They're doing the same thing many of us single people are doing: they're looking for love. My fault that I didn't find a dancer amongst them -- I just didn't get that right! Our AT is much more sacred than that. We cull the herd of the players pretty easily and quickly. You MUST become obsessed with the dance and to many of the men, they know they're goal was to meet a chick and move on to other things. How many of us know of a particular guy or gal that once they found someone (in whatever dance form / style it happened to be) they NEVER went to tango anymore? I can think of 3 couples from my former AT community. How many of us know a guy in our communities right now that really only dances tango as a means to find yet another vulnerable, gullible woman he has absolutely no intention of developing anything more serious with than an affair because he is a MILONGUERO in the worst possible way? And we let them do it because, dammit, they're good dancers! Don't blame them. They have a goal. They've succeeded. I always am excited when I meet a man that hasn't danced anything. He doesn't have any preconceived notions. These are our victims (oops, I mean... targets... oops, I mean... people of interest to focus our recruiting goals on). We come to tango for many reasons. We are the lucky ones that, for whatever reason we came to tango, FOUND tango. Who cares about finding the other things? Perhaps, we reason, we'll eventually find that. It is no longer the goal if it ever was. When I was a cocktail waitress, in those crazy times known as the 80's, one particular evening a man, shirt open to the navel, hairy chest, gold chains, was talking up some women in my section. I came to their rescue and explained that since he came over to meet the women and he'd done just that, he should now move on. Well, he went and complained to the Owner (not just a bartender or manager, mind you -- I really ticked him off). The owner had a bit of a talk with me but did an about face when I simply explained to
Re: [Tango-L] Contemporary classical tango orchestras, interpretations, recordings, compositions
Hi Konstantin, You've done a good job of listing so many good contemporary tango orchestras. Thanks for your good work, I'm going to use your list to do more research of good, danceable tango music of higher sound quality. However, I will say that too many of these orchestras are emulating the later Pugliese orchestra or perform Piazzolla style compositions. Generally, the contemporary tango orchestras tend to play in the late 50's or later styles of tango which came after the tango dance fell from it's apogee. I do not mean to say that Pugliese is not danceable, or that all the late 50's and later music is unsuitable for dancing. But in reality, I rarely if ever have heard tango played in the style of the '30s, '40s or early '50s. That's entirely too bad because that's exactly the absolutely best tango music for dancing in a rhythmic, compact manner. For me the music from the Pugliese orchestra and others like it is like a dessert. I would not go to a restaurant and order an 8 course meal consisting of Tiramisu, chocolate mousse, keylime pie, peach melba, apple pie, blueberry cobbler, napoleons and cookies. That's exactly the feeling I get when a DJ plays nothing but music like that... I've actually sat (not danced, mind you) through hours of Pugliese, Piazzolla, late Darienzo, late D'Agostino, late Troilo, Basso, Sexteto Mayor and the like with occasional looong tandas of Gotan, Bajofondo, Tangophobia, Tangheto, Libedinsky or other forms of neo-tango-like music.. Again, I don't mean to sound like some hide bound tango taleban, but in reality I prefer the more authentic stuff of the 30's, 40's and 50's. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with the other stuff. There is no question of the artistic ability of the musicians and the sound quality is much better than the old stuff. Actually, I do from time to time enjoy dancing tango-like to some non tango music, but I do wish that more orchestras played arrangements more like the old orchestras I like so much. Cheers, Manuel www.tango-rio.com visit our webpage www.tango-rio.com Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 21:18:21 -0700 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: tango-l@mit.edu Subject: [Tango-L] Contemporary classical tango orchestras, interpretations, recordings, compositions Hi all, This is an attempt to provide some starting points for exploration of contemporary classical tango orchestras, interpretations, recordings, and compositions. A. I will try to focus on what is for dancing, not just for listening, but in any case it should be confined to classical tango (as previously defined). snip ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Igor's Question: a woman's perspective
On Oct 2, 2007, at 10:34 AM, Darlene Robertson wrote: Hello All, ... I have over many years invited, coerced and bribed (with the promise of a date, if you will, for some fellow that actually learned tango) many men to visit our community with the goal of adding them to the Argentine Tango herd. I have grabbed them from West Coast Swing, East Coast Swing, Country/Western and my former boyfriend (before Tango became my boyfriend), Salsa. I've given free lessons, cheap lessons and encouraged them to go someplace else for group or private lessons, etc. They're consensus? Gosh, I hope you're sitting down. They didn't like the music. Okay, there, I've said it. Please don't get all your tailfeathers ruffled over yet another discussion about traditional, alternative, neo, nuevo, etc. on me. This isn't about that well-worn topic. Of the 40 or so men, NONE liked the music. They danced the other stuff because it was what they could hear a beat to, or dance to without thinking or whatever. What does that tell me? These guys dance to get laid. The go to hold women. They're doing the same thing many of us single people are doing: they're looking for love. My fault that I didn't find a dancer amongst them -- I just didn't get that right! Abrazos, Darlene Thanks for this Darlene, I liked all your comments, but in particular you make an important point that so many men DON'T LIKE THE MUSIC (at first, I presume). This is strongly related to the other two points: LACK OF CONFIDENCE and RETENTION OF GUYS. I define advanced tango as simple things done well, but that is also a definition of confident tango. We've been throwing around the terms feminine and masculine, and those are useful but loaded terms. A more specific and easier to address issue is to address CONFIDENCE or lack thereof. Yes, tango requires masculine guys, but at the basic level it isn't that these guys aren't masculine. They feel tentative because they aren't confident. Tango requires (the follower requires), that the man proposes an idea, a step a sequence of steps or whatever. This is daunting for the men at first, and the crux of the problem is confidence vs uncertainty. I've taught for ten years, which is important because I've tried and abandoned many things with a specific goal of creating better retention of the men. Women are important, but they have more patience, can learn quickly in privates, and in general have an easier time with tangoat the beginning. Retain the men, and we'll retain the women. In my experience, the single most important driver for retaining the guys is whether they feel confident. Secondly, the foundation for confidence is understanding the music. You can draw a big fat arrow: MUSICALITY = CONFIDENCE = RETENTION = HAPPY WOMEN. Teaching Musicality. So, when I teach I am highly focused on showing the men where the beat is and where the musical phrasing is. Change the music, repeat and rinse. It takes repetition and time, as this is a strange foreign genre to most. Basically, if they don't know the music, then they have to be shown exactly where it is, and how to make their movements relate to it. Musicality is when your energy matches the musical energy, the surge at the beginning of the phrase, the suspension at the end, the flow and wave of the waltz, the staccatto of D'Arienzo, the walk of Di Sarli, the drama of Pugliese. Confidence is when you just know what to do in your bones. I'm sometimes accused of just teaching walking because I present tango steps or vocabulary more slowly than some teachers, but that is a misunderstanding because I'm teaching a MUSICAL way of walking, which some might call dancing. It is no wonder that some dancers like alternative music because they can hear it, move to it be inspired by it. Watch a North American dance to blues or RB. That is the music of our people; it makes sense to us, we can just feel what to do. In fact I use alternative precisely for this quality of creating confidence... Hmmm, I guess I CAN dance. Teaching steps. Steps? Steps don't equal tango; steps are just the things you do once you know tango. This is perhaps why in Argentina you can start with the steps. Culturally, they already know tango, what is sounds like, looks like, feels like, so they just need to know what to do. I know, you have teachers who present lots and lots of steps. This is so typical of new teachers and Intermediate dancers. Let me show you! This is an ocho, this is a volcada, this is a shoe shine, this is a whoop-de-do. They are teaching at the level they are learning, not the level where a beginner is learning. Teaching lots of steps keeps the guys in a constant state of un- confidence and un-ability. It is deceptive, perhaps. They feel like they are learning, and maybe they keep taking classes always seeking
Re: [Tango-L] Igor's Question: a woman's perspective
This guy says, I'm perfect for you, 'cause I'm a cross between a macho man and a sensitive man. I said, Oh, a gay trucker? [] Judy Tenuta At 11:33 AM 10/2/2007, Tom Stermitz wrote: On Oct 2, 2007, at 10:34 AM, Darlene Robertson wrote: Hello All, ... I have over many years invited, coerced and bribed (with the promise of a date, if you will, for some fellow that actually learned tango) many men to visit our community with the goal of adding them to the Argentine Tango herd. I have grabbed them from West Coast Swing, East Coast Swing, Country/Western and my former boyfriend (before Tango became my boyfriend), Salsa. I've given free lessons, cheap lessons and encouraged them to go someplace else for group or private lessons, etc. They're consensus? Gosh, I hope you're sitting down. They didn't like the music. Okay, there, I've said it. Please don't get all your tailfeathers ruffled over yet another discussion about traditional, alternative, neo, nuevo, etc. on me. This isn't about that well-worn topic. Of the 40 or so men, NONE liked the music. They danced the other stuff because it was what they could hear a beat to, or dance to without thinking or whatever. What does that tell me? These guys dance to get laid. The go to hold women. They're doing the same thing many of us single people are doing: they're looking for love. My fault that I didn't find a dancer amongst them -- I just didn't get that right! Abrazos, Darlene Thanks for this Darlene, I liked all your comments, but in particular you make an important point that so many men DON'T LIKE THE MUSIC (at first, I presume). This is strongly related to the other two points: LACK OF CONFIDENCE and RETENTION OF GUYS. I define advanced tango as simple things done well, but that is also a definition of confident tango. We've been throwing around the terms feminine and masculine, and those are useful but loaded terms. A more specific and easier to address issue is to address CONFIDENCE or lack thereof. Yes, tango requires masculine guys, but at the basic level it isn't that these guys aren't masculine. They feel tentative because they aren't confident. Tango requires (the follower requires), that the man proposes an idea, a step a sequence of steps or whatever. This is daunting for the men at first, and the crux of the problem is confidence vs uncertainty. I've taught for ten years, which is important because I've tried and abandoned many things with a specific goal of creating better retention of the men. Women are important, but they have more patience, can learn quickly in privates, and in general have an easier time with tangoat the beginning. Retain the men, and we'll retain the women. In my experience, the single most important driver for retaining the guys is whether they feel confident. Secondly, the foundation for confidence is understanding the music. You can draw a big fat arrow: MUSICALITY = CONFIDENCE = RETENTION = HAPPY WOMEN. Teaching Musicality. So, when I teach I am highly focused on showing the men where the beat is and where the musical phrasing is. Change the music, repeat and rinse. It takes repetition and time, as this is a strange foreign genre to most. Basically, if they don't know the music, then they have to be shown exactly where it is, and how to make their movements relate to it. Musicality is when your energy matches the musical energy, the surge at the beginning of the phrase, the suspension at the end, the flow and wave of the waltz, the staccatto of D'Arienzo, the walk of Di Sarli, the drama of Pugliese. Confidence is when you just know what to do in your bones. I'm sometimes accused of just teaching walking because I present tango steps or vocabulary more slowly than some teachers, but that is a misunderstanding because I'm teaching a MUSICAL way of walking, which some might call dancing. It is no wonder that some dancers like alternative music because they can hear it, move to it be inspired by it. Watch a North American dance to blues or RB. That is the music of our people; it makes sense to us, we can just feel what to do. In fact I use alternative precisely for this quality of creating confidence... Hmmm, I guess I CAN dance. Teaching steps. Steps? Steps don't equal tango; steps are just the things you do once you know tango. This is perhaps why in Argentina you can start with the steps. Culturally, they already know tango, what is sounds like, looks like, feels like, so they just need to know what to do. I know, you have teachers who present lots and lots of steps. This is so typical of new teachers and Intermediate dancers. Let me show you! This is an ocho, this is a volcada, this is a shoe shine, this is a whoop-de-do. They are teaching at the level they are learning, not the level where a beginner is learning. Teaching lots of steps keeps the guys in a constant state of un- confidence and un-ability. It is deceptive, perhaps. They feel like
Re: [Tango-L] Help to find masculinity in tango!
Please, help to find ways to uncover masculine part of tango to potential great leaders ! This is acually an interesting subject which, to me, requires a review of the changing roles of men and women in the U.S. in general (and perhaps other English speaking countries). I think these lyrics capture some of the confusion... Real Men by Joe Jackson (1982) Take your mind back - I don't know when sometime when it always seemed to be just us and them girls who wore pink and boys that wore blue boys that always grew up better men than me and you What's a man now - what's a man mean Is he rough or is he rugged is he cultural and clean Now it's all change - it's got to chage more 'cause we think it's getting better but nobody's really sure. Some of you may remember that we went through a period here in the US where women routinely criticized men for being Neanderthals. Many men responded to this by toning down the more overt aspects of being male. Soon, historically speaking, women started asking where all of the real men had gone. Because of my age, and the pre feminist culture I grew up in, I think I have a pretty good idea of what masculinity looks like in dance. Defining it point by point is not so easy, however. It has a lot to do, though, with the fact that the man is usually bigger and stronger than the woman. Both the man and the woman accept this, and form their partnership acccordingly. If you don't accept the biological difference between men and women, I think you will have difficulty uncovering the masculine part of tango. - Don't let your dream ride pass you by.Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Igor's Question: a woman's perspective
On 10/2/07, Tom Stermitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Teaching Musicality. So, when I teach I am highly focused on showing the men where the beat is and where the musical phrasing is. Change the music, repeat and rinse. It takes repetition and time, as this is a strange foreign genre to most. Basically, if they don't know the music, then they have to be shown exactly where it is, and how to make their movements relate to it. Musicality is when your energy matches the musical energy, the surge at the beginning of the phrase, the suspension at the end, the flow and wave of the waltz, the staccatto of D'Arienzo, the walk of Di Sarli, the drama of Pugliese. This tends to be the thing I find most guys around here struggle with. In ballroom dances, there's a known timing that you can find in the music. With Argentine Tango, there isn't. AT is more about feeling the music. That's a difficult concept to get across sometimes, especially when you're also trying to teach them how tango works. This gets more problematic when the music branches out away from traditional tango music. -Greg G ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] your favorite tanda
i have been convinced by some severe front and back channel head knockings that some of my music issues relate to trying to dance to the wrong tango music. i would appreciate if some of you would pass on your favorite tanda or song to dance to. i think that if i could hear and dance to what other people find fun and satisfying, i might find the answers in the positive examples. tandas would be especially helpful, so i could feel the energy changes through a set. i have been investigating some of the music that has been discussed in the last few days, but i really want to see the setups that each of you enjoy as your favorites. thanx in advance _ Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare! http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?s_cid=wl_hotmailnews ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Igor's Question: a woman's perspective
I understand there is a problem, but disagree that it has to be a problem. Argentine Tango seems so improvisational and flexible that you can't find the structure. Specifically, the phrasing structure of Tango is 4 +4=8. This is easy count and easy to match with simple steps. But when you have too many steps, you lose the musicality. That is why it is so hard to teach musicality to intermediate and advanced dancers. The cool thing is: IT IS VERY EASY TO TEACH MUSICALITY TO BEGINNERS. On Oct 2, 2007, at 12:40 PM, Endzone 102 wrote: On 10/2/07, Tom Stermitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Teaching Musicality. So, when I teach I am highly focused on showing the men where the beat is and where the musical phrasing is. Change the music, repeat and rinse. It takes repetition and time, as this is a strange foreign genre to most. Basically, if they don't know the music, then they have to be shown exactly where it is, and how to make their movements relate to it. Musicality is when your energy matches the musical energy, the surge at the beginning of the phrase, the suspension at the end, the flow and wave of the waltz, the staccatto of D'Arienzo, the walk of Di Sarli, the drama of Pugliese. This tends to be the thing I find most guys around here struggle with. In ballroom dances, there's a known timing that you can find in the music. With Argentine Tango, there isn't. AT is more about feeling the music. That's a difficult concept to get across sometimes, especially when you're also trying to teach them how tango works. This gets more problematic when the music branches out away from traditional tango music. -Greg G ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Tango in Ottawa???
Does anyone have information about milongas in Ottawa Canada? Flying up for business in late Oct. Thanks Greg ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Igor's Question: a woman's perspective
Thanks for recognizing the point I wanted to make. Let's start with confidence, and then masculine might mean something additional. That additional could be very interesting, but I think it is more subtle, complicated and cultural. Confidence as a foundation allows us to go on to other aspects of masculinity. Also, Femininity isn't about sugar and spice and pinkness. It is more of a diva-like quality. But, that is a different topic maybe. On Oct 2, 2007, at 1:07 PM, Caroline Polack wrote: So, essentially, weakness in leading is not masculine. Lack of confidence is not masculine. Worse of all are leaders who can't stop apologizing. Please just cut that out. A simple squeeze or stroke is more than apology enough. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Igor's Question: a woman's perspective - strong lead, no arms, etc.
--- Darlene Robertson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When a guy is new, he doesn't have a clue about the proper embrace. A strong lead can take an inexperienced woman and make her look and FEEL great. A weak lead feels completely intimidated and like a blubbering idiot. Shudder. There's that phrase strong lead, again! I was too busy to put in my 2 cents worth last week, so here it is. Choosing words is extremely important since they can connote different things to different people. I find that strong implies the use of strength, which is something I dislike in a lead. Tell a beginning male that a lead needs to be strong and he's likely to think of pulling or pushing the woman into place. (And it can suggest to the woman that she needs to be pushed into place.) A clear lead is what is needed and connotes a better sense of the masculinity desired in tango (as opposed to a big bruiser of a linebacker, for example). What is a clear lead? It's simply when every part of the man tell the woman the same thing. His chest, his arms, his hands, his earlobes, etc. send her the same message. This is masculine. This is not the wishy washiness of the chest saying one thing and the arms saying another thing and the hands saying yet something else. Which is why leading with no arms is helpful as an exercise. It's hard for men to learn to control different body parts all at once. Much easier for them to master control over their chest first if they also don't have to worry about their arms and their hands. Trini de Pittsburgh PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango PittsburghÂ’s most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ Check out the hottest 2008 models today at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Igor's question: A man's perspective
Finally we arrived to equating masculinity with confidence. One of the male characteristics that in some way I initially described as the man being poised : a state of balance or equilibrium, as from equality or equal distribution of weight; equipoise. 2. a dignified, self-confident manner or bearing; composure; self-possession: to show poise in company. 3. steadiness; stability: intellectual poise. Man in Argentine society like in tango is confident, he is in charge, he knows where he wants to go and how to get there or at least he projects an image of knowing even when he does not know. This cultural characteristic is present in Tango. He moves without hesitation, with authority, and certain arrogance. He needs the woman and her femininity. He wants her for himself and seeks her attention. He adores her and expects her to spend time with him. He knows that the most valuable thing she can give him is her femininity. Something that he does not have and only a woman can give him. This is her strength and he is conscious about it. Now when you have a beginner man who has to concentrate in the music (which he does not understand), that has to concentrate in his foot work (which is very difficult, even when doing a simple walk), at the same time in leading the woman (something that he cannot do) and also to avoid collisions, following the line of dance, staying on the periphery of the floor (something that he frequently forgets to do). How can he be poised and have confidence? How can he have confidence when the woman that is his companion learns to dance faster than he does, when she seems to be dancing and following the instructor or other dancers with ease, yet she has lots of problems following him. He has no confidence, he moves with hesitation, his face red with rage, while his partner assumes a posture of passive victim, dancing with hopeless number. No wonder he finally quits, his ago and confidence shattered into small pieces. So now let's go and create a method of teaching men to dance tango that prevents and avoids these problems. Good luck, Sergio _ Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks Treats for You! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHMloc=us ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] FW: Help to find masculinity in tango!
So Igor: Seems you have started a topic with some really good responses. However I am curious. How is my response a dumb one. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Igor Polk Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 3:17 AM To: tango-l@mit.edu Subject: [Tango-L] Help to find masculinity in tango! Hm... Really, for the first time I have posted a real life question which I have to resolve, and .. I only got 3 dumb answers of those who did not even bother to think what I asked. Well, thanks a lot.. Igor Polk ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Help to find masculinity in Tango !
Keith: Instead of concentrating on the how, I suggest concentration on the what. Perhaps you've heard the expression The man is the frame. The woman is the painting. A woman can show her femininity when given the opportunity to play, especially if the man gives the woman the chance. I like to lead stepovers. Some women just step over the foot like it's an obstacle on the floor. Others take the opportunity to show off their skill, like sweeping the free foot in a wide arc, leading herself in a boleo and s-l-o-w-l-y stepping over my foot. I remember very well a class at the New York Tango Festival (the summer version, not this week's version) where Virginia Kelly taught a class in interleading, where the woman takes an opportunity to express herself. She doesn't back lead the man, but stops the man and does what she wants. A confident man will give into the woman's desire. A confident woman is sure her partner will respect her. A good dancing relationship should be based on mutual respect. Michael I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango Washington, DC - Original Message - From: Keith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: tango-l@mit.edu Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 12:53 AM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Help to find masculinity in Tango ! Michael, Having disagreed with Carol, could you suggest alternative differences between men and women. Or do you think that men and women are essentially the same? I suspect this may be the PC view in the US, but I'd like some confirmation. Keith, HK On Tue Oct 2 9:18 , Michael sent: - Original Message - From: Carol Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Help to find masculinity in Tango ! demonstrating confidence = masculine better posture = masculine precise control of body and movement = masculine (ie, martial arts) I don't agree with Carol. A woman should should also exude confidence, posture, and precise control of body and movement. IMHO, the above items are not gender specific. Michael Ditkoff Washington, DC ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Igor's Question: a woman's perspective
Hi Greg, I'm always puzzled by statements such as yours. I appreciate your contribution and courage to post your opinion, but I have to wonder what tango music you are talking about Maybe you are trying to find a steady, easy to follow beat to the music of Hugo Diaz' harmonica Otherwise I cannot believe that you can say that there is no known timing in Argentine tango music. ...The beat of danceable tango music is so pronounced and overpowering that you have to dance rhythmically The 4x4 and 2x4 of the tango is incredibly strong. Milonga and vals are also extremely rhythmical and the beat or timing is very easy to feel... Still, I do believe you. I've met a number of guys and women who have the hardest time finding the rhythm of the tango. I don't know what it is, but some folks just have a hard time with music... I've taught in many classes by having the people tap their foot to the strong beats in tango, I've had them snap their fingers and even clap their hands to the beat. They seem to get it, but immediately after the exercise, they dance completely off the beat. It's amazing really, I wish there was something that could be taken or inhaled to make the beat accessible to more people... Please, try listening to Rodriguez of the 50's, Darienzo from the 30's and 40's, and definitely good old Di Sarli from the 50's. If you don't hear the the timing pretty soon, please go to some teachers and ask them to work with you to help you find and use the beat of the tango. I guarantee you that there is so much rhythm in tango that it's practically impossible to ignore. Cheers, Manuel visit our webpage www.tango-rio.com Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 14:40:23 -0400 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] This tends to be the thing I find most guys around here struggle with. In ballroom dances, there's a known timing that you can find in the music. With Argentine Tango, there isn't. AT is more about feeling the music. That's a difficult concept to get across sometimes, especially when you're also trying to teach them how tango works. This gets more problematic when the music branches out away from traditional tango music. -Greg G ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
