Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance
On Jan 3, 2008, at 10:24 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom Stermitz had a nice post on TANGO-L about this sometime in 2006 or 2007. The crux of the matter seems to be selling the possibility of being the master of a situation: rather than being swept off their feet by passion, they are the ones doing the sweeping. Christopher Yes, the important thing for the guys is that they feel successful. Like they have achieved mastery of something, and have the knowledge and confidence to lead a beautiful woman into a dance. In tango nothing happens without the guy coming up with an idea and then executing. This is the crux of the performance anxiety problem. And in tango you are expecting him to succeed or fail in front of a woman, which loads it even more. You want to retain men? Leave them at the end of each class confident, with the new ideas well-integrated with things they already know. For a beginner, that might just be walking. The business strategy of teach something difficult so they will take privates, doesn't succeed with men. They'll just quit. Maybe they are cheap; But really they feel unsuccessful and frustrated. Tom Stermitz http://www.tango.org Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance
My 2 cents: I believe there are several things in Western society that promotes the gender imbalance. One of them is women's failure to make dancing something that is _required_ for meeting them. It is now considered absolutely normal, that women per definitionem are able to dance at some level (as in nightclub), but men are OK if they are just drinking beer at the bar. Even in places where dancing is more popular, women whom are able to dance well vastly outnumber dancing men. If women would at least declare that they _expect_ real men to be able to (partner) dance, the situation would be a lot different. Many men believes that dancing is a sissy type of thing only women do (at least until a few years ago, this was the case in Hungary - many dancers put an awful lot of effort to change that: result is when I say I'm a tango teacher the answer is invariably wow, tango is very hard to learn isn't it? and after a few minutes of talking, people ask me about courses and locations). Within existing communities, the average follower does not tend to indicate that she would gladly dance with the guys trying to get a dance. Cabeceo was invented for this reason, and really: I can't really find anything more interesting (and effective). However, it only works well if ladies distinguish between partners and pay attention to those they want to dance with. Most lady dancers take whomever asks them to dance - mostly because of the gender balance - with the exception of dancers they consider bad or repulsive, but it is very hard to see who they really prefer. This also creates a situation where men feel that they have to do nothing to get partners. There is no challenge, and therefore: little reward and little sense of success. If women would be more keen to play the GAME, then men would feel that they have to really pay attention to the women and would be more into the type of dancing that promotes less show, more _real_ tango: guys would face that mastering tango is really mastering how to please a women while dancing and not just mastering steps. Of course, while a guy in the majority urban population may socialize without the possibility of (his ego) getting hurt, this is not an easy thing to attract guys with such a dangerous environment, however the overall feeling of the milongas would be a lot more sexy and therefore the public perception of tango dancing would be more appealing (sex sells - especially among men). All in all the possibility of being rejected is a lot lower than at a club, where no partner dancing is involved. (Oh yes: the idea that men generally learn tango for the sake of tango - it is rubbish. My experience is: 5 out of 10 guys does tango to meet women or to learn a dance with which they can meet women, or consider it a training to learn how to handle women, so they are more successful with them. The other 5 already came with a girlfriend/spouse...) Cheers, Aron -- Ecsedy Áron *** Aron ECSEDY Tel: +36 20 66-24-071 http://www.milonga.hu/ http://www.holgyvalasz.hu/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] rhythm breaks
tangopeer wrote: - The milonga runs from 9 pm til 12:30 am. - At 11 pm, a milonga tanda is played followed by a latin rhythm break. - At 11 pm, a lot of dancers get up to leave. I am surprised they waited that long before leaving. What a weird way to space out the songs. No milongas for two hours!? Do they at least play any waltzes? - Is a rhythm break needed at a 3 1/2 hour milonga? - Is the combination of a milonga tanda with a rhythm break appropriate at a 3 1/2 hour milonga? Nothing wrong with a rhythm break, but why include the milongas with it? Not only is that overkill for the rhythm break but implies that the milongas are different from the other tangos. It is still tango. The rhythm break should be different music, not mixed with more tangos. Sounds like the rhythm break is chasing them away and I can't blame them for leaving. I think they should get another DJ. (I am not being facetious.) I realize every community is different, but people here in NYC would probably leave even before the rhythm break. Thanks for warning us. Cheers, Charles ** Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Gender imbalance, tips for female followers
Tip one: come to NYC. Unlike other cities I travel to, here most milongas have more male leaders than female followers. There are also more female leaders than there are male followers, which makes the gender imbalance even worse, as it takes two eligible women out of circulation. Through Darwinian laws of survival, more men work harder to improve their tango, so the number of very good male leaders outnumbers the number of very good female followers. Tip two: Arrive late, stay late. For example, at the all night milonga, even if there is close to gender balance early in the evening, or rarer still, more women than men, this is very temporary; after a few hours it skews heavily male, and closer to the end of the night almost two to one male/female ratio. Seems at around 1 or so, women leave early en masse, as if on cue. The men who are dancing are aware of this, latch on to their partner, and rotation of partners ceases. Also, better dancers tend to come later and stay later. Dont ask me why. Maybe the people who come early are there for the free beginner or intermediate lesson early in the night and have had enough after a few hours. So if you are a woman visiting NYC, take a nap in the afternoon, have a leisurely dinner, see a show, come to the milonga after midnight, you will not be sitting out any tandas. Also, the floor craft improves as the night goes on and the crowd thins out. And if you are willing to dance with a non-professional, you will have very little competition, as the better local women will only dance with their best friends or one of the many male teachers or professionals in attendance. I disagree with Igor, who says that becoming a better dancer gives you more dance partners. It is just the opposite. There are less partners that you will be interested in dancing with. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance
Sitting in one spot all night thing. WHERE you sit is supremely important. At any venue there will be predominate traffic flows - to and from: the front door, the bathroom, the dancefloor, and the food, as Trini pointed out. Women who want to dance, do well to put themselves in or near the traffic flows. Thank you for the tips, but they might not apply to everyone. I like to sit in one spot, but that's not where the traffic flows. Sometimes dancers tell me: you should sit where the traffic flows so that I can easily see you. But I rather prefer a more quiet spot where I can listen to the music and watch the dancers and I won't be disturbed by a stop-and-go-traffic back and forth from the bar or bathroom. I won't cruise around either. I'm convinced sitting is more rewarding. Why should I go hunting and ask a man to dance? I think the man I like to dance with will have eyes to see and he will find me. I prefer to be invited. A good leader will have the initiative and good eyes. I also consider patience is a prerequisite for tango. For instance I would watch one of the best dancers, he has more than 20 years of dancing experience and I love to watch him dance. I guess I have watched him for years, thinking how wonderful it would be to dance with him. And then a few weeks ago, he came to me and invited me to dance. It was worth waiting for it;) Anna Another tip: After the tanda has started, get up and cruise around. Any men hanging around instead of dancing are fair game. Like Trini said, being sociable at the food table can result in an invitation. It can be even more effective to be moving as a tanda is ending and people are coming off the floor, looking for their next partners. Another tip: Never be shy about asking a man to dance (at least outside of BsAs). J TangoMoments.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance One solution to teach them how to get dances. Sitting in one spot all night, expecting someone to come up to you is not a very effective way to meet people. The women who are successful in getting dances are the ones who aren't afraid to get up, will visit the food table which is a great place to strike up a conversation (without hinting about a dance), and act more sociable. I don't think that acting like a prima donna works in the States. Trini de Pittsburgh _ Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_122007 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Jetzt neu! Schützen Sie Ihren PC mit McAfee und WEB.DE. 30 Tage kostenlos testen. http://www.pc-sicherheit.web.de/startseite/?mc=00 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Gender imbalance, tips for female followers
Martin: I disagree with Igor, who says that becoming a better dancer gives you more dance partners. It is just the opposite. There are less partners that you will be interested in dancing with. Martin, I did not write that. I wrote: the better you dance, the easier it is to make friends And of course the better quality that friends are. Then one comes to a stage, like you described, when one has a handful of the best friends and dance with them. However, if a new one is needed - here you are, no problemo ! So, learn quality dancing, make tango friends, and you always be dancing !!! This is the best tip which surely works for the rest of you life. Igor Polk ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Gender Imbalance/Advertising for men
I sent a private reply to TFH, but he suggested it was probably worth sharing with the group, so here it is. -- Original message -- From: Tango For Her [EMAIL PROTECTED] Actually, I should clarify on the advertising. I, originally, ran the ad with a model in the picture. I called the newspaper to ask why I had such success and she told me that women wanted to be like the model. (Don't shoot me! SHE said it!) Yup, therein lies the rub with advertising. Women often look at other women and evaluate them, especially if they are beautiful. Look at women's magazines, when they are advertising for beauty products, they will show beautiful women in the ads. The association for women is that if they use that product, they will be as beautiful as the model in the photo. Men too are attracted by models (although unlike women, will NOT look at photos of other men and make the association that the product will make them look as good as 'him,' they simply don't care to compare to other men), but the subject matter is not compelling enough with the way you have worded it. You might want to consider running your ad with wording like this- Single Men: Would you like to meet attractive single women? Come to our Argentine Tango classes -in a very male dominated magazine and STILL keep the photo of the model. *Then* you will get the response from only men. So... maybe put it in a car magazine (if you had lots of cash). Alternatives would be Autotrader type magazines, or on bulletin boards at motorcycle/powerboat sales rooms, mens locker rooms at the gym, locker rooms in colleges (hand some out to the players), mens bathrooms where they have the cork boards above the, er, facilities, etc. I agree with Eron, there is a stereotype, especially in North America that dancing is not for real men. Rather, sports are thought of as a manly activity. However, the overall allure of meeting available women WILL outweigh for most men the stereotypical view of the activity. Sex sells, as Eron said, and, therefore, so does the opportunity to meet available women. The retention rate in the community of these men may be low, but even if it's 10% there will still be 10% more men than were available before. I think men in North American don't realize how much women universally love to dance. It is extremely rare that a woman doesn't like to dance. Changing the stereotype is quite difficult, but targeted advertising may do just that, eventually. Cheers! Randy Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
