Re: [Tango-L] Two of My Teaching Pet Peeves

[Chris, UK]

TFH wrote of his two pet teaching peeves:

> Find ways to teach them to have their left foot step in front of them
> rather than off to the left.  They ALL do it!  STOP THEM!

That's common hereabouts in segregated class pupils. The guy is going left 
to avoid kicking the girl's foot. Which he's not yet moved because 
actually he hasn't learned to lead. Guys: spend 1hr with a good leader.

> Someone, PLEASE, tell me why s many teachers teach
> young followers to s-s-s-s-stretch their leg out,
> really far, in a backstep!!!

Same again. The guy hasn't learned to lead her to stretch, and this  
teacher 'fixes' /her/ the only way he knows. This breaks the connection so 
neither guy or girl can find the natural solution themselves.

> Is that the only way to teach them to have a straight knee and a
> beautiful leg?  Can't they have it with a shorter backstep

They sure can. Girls: ignore teacher. Guys: spend 1hr with a good leader.

> NEITHER of them knows how to fix that awful feeling of having
> absolutely no connection.  Bounce!  Bounce!  Bounce! 

Girls: spend 1hr with a good leader. Guys: spend 1hr with a good leader.

> Almost every teacher that I have seen lets those things go!

The teacher has no choice. These dysfunctions are inevitable consequences 
of the class teahcing model that couples non-dancers with non-dancers.

--
Chris



___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] Tango with Children

[Roger]

Victor Bennetts wrote:
> 

>  Does anyone have any clever strategies that they can suggest we use to get 
> us to the point where 

Join, or organise, a baby-sitting club.
Other parents sit for you. You sit for other parents. Points system .. 
doesn't drain the bank. While sitting you get to watch their DVDs and 
eat their supper. When they sit for you - they can watch your tango 
DVDs. Potential new blood in the tango community?

cheers
rde
___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances

[Tango For Her]

First, as a person, Fabian is absolutely top-notch.  

Second, when he is in town, I pay very close
attention, because I learn a lot from his technique.

Third, it's been quite a few years.  Is his partner's
name Carolina?  Anyway, she is a phenominal dancer AND
she is enabled to do so much because Fabian's lead is
impeccable.  That woman is balanced with 100% security
because of her great leader!

Fourth, he can, probably, dance better than any of us
writing on here.  So, why soil his name like that?  

I know ... freedom of speech, etc ... but, what about
"do unto others as you would have them do to you."?



--- Krasimir Stoyanov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> No contradiction here - Fabian Salas is an awful
> dancer.
> 
> >  "And see, you go to Europe, most of these people
> dance the way we do ..."
> >
> >Fabia Salas, interviewed by Keith Elshaw,
> 2001
> 
>


  

Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  
http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ 

___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances

[Krasimir Stoyanov]

No contradiction here - Fabian Salas is an awful dancer.

>  "And see, you go to Europe, most of these people dance the way we do ..."
>
>Fabia Salas, interviewed by Keith Elshaw, 2001



___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] Two of My Teaching Pet Peeves

[Tango For Her]

--- "Chris, UK" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> TFH wrote of his two pet teaching peeves:
> 
> > Find ways to teach them to have their left foot
> step in front of them
> > rather than off to the left.  They ALL do it! 
> STOP THEM!
> 
> That's common hereabouts in segregated class pupils.
> The guy is going left 
> to avoid kicking the girl's foot. Which he's not yet
> moved because 
> actually he hasn't learned to lead. Guys: spend 1hr
> with a good leader.

Sure.  But, that’s taking the responsibility away from
the teachers!
Teachers, when you see 3 leaders in your class
stepping off to the left, stop the class, point it
out, show them how to correct it and continue with
your steadfast gameplan.

===

> 
> > Someone, PLEASE, tell me why s many teachers
> teach
> > young followers to s-s-s-s-stretch their leg out,
> > really far, in a backstep!!!
> 
> Same again. The guy hasn't learned to lead her to
> stretch, and this  
> teacher 'fixes' /her/ the only way he knows. This
> breaks the connection so 
> neither guy or girl can find the natural solution
> themselves.
> 

There IS a solution!  Teachers, when you teach about
straightening the knee in the backstep, also, teach it
with a short step.  They are NOT being taught this!

===

> > Is that the only way to teach them to have a
> straight knee and a
> > beautiful leg?  Can't they have it with a shorter
> backstep
> 
> They sure can. Girls: ignore teacher. Guys: spend
> 1hr with a good leader.
> 

Instead, Girls, ask your teacher about straightening
your leg during a short backstep.  Make your teachers
earn their money!

===

> > NEITHER of them knows how to fix that awful
> feeling of having
> > absolutely no connection.  Bounce!  Bounce! 
> Bounce! 
> 
> Girls: spend 1hr with a good leader. Guys: spend 1hr
> with a good leader.
> 
> > Almost every teacher that I have seen lets those
> things go!
> 
> The teacher has no choice. These dysfunctions are
> inevitable consequences 
> of the class teahcing model that couples non-dancers
> with non-dancers.
> 

Teachers do have a choice!  When you see a number of
people doing a certain thing wrong, stop the class,
point it out, show them the correct way, and continue
the class.







  

Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] Two of My Teaching Pet Peeves

[Tom Stermitz]

I share your two pet peeves (three if you think about it):
  - How to walk in a straight line.
  - How not to step on her feet. How not to get stepped on.
  - How to walk to the cross without going too far outside.

These are real issues for all newcomers to dance, and it is  
understandable that it would take some effort to resolve them.  
Teachers can and should figure out how to speed the learning process  
and correct bad technique earlier on. Sensible body mechanics are  
often compromised by stylistic ideas, which can even lead to injury.  
The followers back and SI joint is a weak point.

First, to sympathize with the newcomer to tango:
  - The new leader is really afraid of stepping on her, so he  
typically overcompensates.
  - Walking backwards gracefully is difficult and certainly much more  
unfamiliar than walking forward.
  - Spiraling movements (moving outside to the left of her) are much  
harder to do than walking straight forward
  - He sees the teacher's movement, but has a tendency to exaggerate it.


WALKING IN A STRAIGHT LINE

As your body moves forward, your foot should land under your center of  
balance. If she is in front of you, then you are also stepping under  
her center of balance. This is true by stupid definition: It is called  
"walking without falling over". But, there is a real reason why  
leaders have difficulty with balance and walking in a straight line.  
He is trying to avoid stepping on her, and compensates by moving his  
feet to either side. On the follower's side, she tries to overstep  
backwards to get her feet out of the way.

Solutions:

Leader needs to move forward in a natural "side walk" stride. A  
purposeful, upright, bold stride of the leader helps everything: Land  
heel-ball, end with the weight transfer with his "hips, heart and  
head" over the ball of the foot. This keeps his posture forward,  
upright and on balance. The follower's connection to his body moves  
her backward, and her feet can "naturally" float to catch her body.

Landing on the ball of the foot is a stylistic treatment, that is a  
direct contradiction of 20 or 40 years of daily walking. Maybe it's  
desirable for some versions of tango (stage, for example), but for  
regular social dancing it is so much better to work with normal,  
natural movements. If you teach a class of beginners to lead with the  
toes or ball of the foot, you will produce a class of guys worried  
about their feet and mincing across the room instead of moving their  
bodies boldly.


WALKING BACKWARDS GRACEFULLY

Walking "naturally" backwards means that the ACTIVE leg is the  
supporting leg, the one that pushes her body through space, and the  
FLOATING leg stretches downwards and back, rather than reaching.  
Reaching and engaging the butt muscles, digs into her SI joints. The  
recently popular, "culo alegre" style of arching the lower back makes  
this much worse. Maybe the 20-year old ballerina is not yet injured,  
but for normal women, the wear and tear on the back is really harmful.  
Consider also that pregnancy loosens a woman's joints, and has a  
specific impact on the SI joints.

There is a simple way to address this: Keep your heels downward,  
almost grazing the floor. A gently straight leg comes from keeping a  
soft butt, stretching the inner thigh, psoas and lower tummy, and  
stretching the achilles.

Quick survey: How many women have sore backs after a workshop weekend?
  - Do you reach back or stretch downwards?
  - Is your butt soft or tight muscles?
  - Are you trying to take big steps?
  - How's your core support?
  - Is your belly-button pulled toward your backbone?
  - Is your heel pointed downward?

Secondly, reaching way back, away from the leader disconnects the  
woman's leg from herself. She is guessing how long the stride will be,  
rather than matching the float of her leg to his forward movement. The  
most connected strides come when the leader's and follower's legs  
match speed and distance. One of the best exercises I have to discover  
this is for the follower to "almost brush his thigh" as it comes  
forward. If she can slow down her float to match his tempo, she will  
always be out of his way, and never out of connection, both internal  
and with him.


SPIRALING AND WALKING OUTSIDE (TO THE CROSS)

My pet peeve is leaders who over-lead the cross. They walk way outside  
and their movement shouts: I'M GOING TO CROSS N!". That  
habituates the followers to gross, even grotesquely exaggerated  
movements.

I know. It is popular to teach that he should lead her cross with a  
spiral. I prefer leading the cross mostly with the axis. I think of  
the leader FOLLOWING her with his spiral as he walks outside, leading  
the cross with the axis shifting slightly diagonal, and then un- 
spiraling to follow her as she moves to the cross.

Again, sympathy for the beginner is important. Walking in a straight  
line is much easier than rotational movements: spiraling, p

[Tango-L] Men who pull to the left

[Michael]

Astrid wrote about men who pull to the left causing pain to
the woman.

My teacher taught me the hook step. When I take the woman to
the cross, after stepping side left, as the woman steps
backward on her left, my right foot has to go around her
right foot or I'll crash into her. HMM! Let me try again. As
I step outside her I want to stay close to her. My right
foot has to hook around her right foot, at the same time my
chest has to rotate to the right to remain facing her, even
though I'm still outside her. The next step is another hook
step where my left foot has to brush my right foot before
going forward. Men who don't use the hook step will walk to
their left because they see the woman is in their way. As
they walk to their left, they pull the woman to her right.

It gets worse on the next step. If I don't brush, my left
foot will go straight ahead, where the woman isn't, causing
the woman to twist her back even more.

Unfortunately, this is easier to show than to tell.

Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
If I can wake up early enough tomorrow, I'll get to NY in
time to see Zotto's tango show.



I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] Two of My Teaching Pet Peeves

[Carol Shepherd]

Bravo, Astrid.  I have been having this problem for years and could not 
exactly pinpoint why my lower back was in so much pain from dancing with 
certain people.  Thanks

CS

Astrid wrote:
>> Hmmm, I'm always trying to get further outside on my left especially when 
>> in close embrace. Is this my problem?
> 
> No, you are not alone. A lot of men do this, and let me tell you, the 
> further left you go, the more uncomfortable it gets for the woman. 
> Especially if you turn the right side of her body at an angle to you. It 
> means, she has to walk while constantly having her back twisted into an 
> unnatural angle. Lasrt time I danced with a Japanese tango teacher who took 
> this to such an extreme that he looked like he would have almost prefered to 
> dance behind me. Why do guys do this?
> 
>>   Can you be a little more descriptive?  Certainly walking to the cross, 
>> one has to do this...is this wrong at some times? when? Is it a matter of 
>> an inch or two? thanks
>>
>>
>>
>

-- 
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw PLC
Ann Arbor MI USA
734 668 4646 v  734 786 1241 f
Arborlaw - a legal blog for entrepreneurs and small business
http://arborlaw.com

___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

[Tango-L] NyTimes review Tango X 2 Zotto

[Jim G]

Great review 1/18/08  of the Zotto show in NYC  
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/18/arts/dance/18tang.html?scp=1&sq=tango

_
Climb to the top of the charts!  Play the word scramble challenge with star 
power.
http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan
___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances

[Krasimir Stoyanov]

He is an awful dancer precisely because he dances like tipical european or 
american pseudo-tango dancer.

- Original Message - 
From: "Tango For Her" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 5:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances


> First, as a person, Fabian is absolutely top-notch.
>
> Second, when he is in town, I pay very close
> attention, because I learn a lot from his technique.
>
> Third, it's been quite a few years.  Is his partner's
> name Carolina?  Anyway, she is a phenominal dancer AND
> she is enabled to do so much because Fabian's lead is
> impeccable.  That woman is balanced with 100% security
> because of her great leader!
>
> Fourth, he can, probably, dance better than any of us
> writing on here.  So, why soil his name like that?
>
> I know ... freedom of speech, etc ... but, what about
> "do unto others as you would have them do to you."?
>
>
>
> --- Krasimir Stoyanov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> No contradiction here - Fabian Salas is an awful
>> dancer.
>>
>> >  "And see, you go to Europe, most of these people
>> dance the way we do ..."
>> >
>> >Fabia Salas, interviewed by Keith Elshaw,
>> 2001
>>
>>
>
>
> 
> 
> Be a better friend, newshound, and
> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now. 
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
>
> ___
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L@mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l 

___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

[Tango-L] European and American pseudo-tango dancers, and Argentine truest tangos

[Igor Polk]

Very very nice example of a slow salon tango 
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA-mGU_X8Mc), 
Thank you Krasimir !

But what about this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmPzXwjN8Ac
( dance starts at about 2:40 )

Isn't it a truest form of tango too? ;)

Igor Polk,
PS Watch my video collection:
http://www.virtuar.com/tango/linkblog.htm






___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances

['Mash]

On Fri, Jan 18, 2008 at 06:10:42PM +0200, Krasimir Stoyanov wrote:
> He is an awful dancer precisely because he dances like tipical european or 
> american pseudo-tango dancer.
>  

Sweeping generalisations aside, I totally agree with Krasimir. 

I think we would all dance better if we shaved our underarms, put on trousers 
rather then lederhosen, wore shoes not clogs and between tandas stopped 
inhaling that "Big Mac and fries" before having a quick siesta. 

I will also try to put down my cup of tea, I know how distracting those 
splashes can be.

:)

'Mash
London, UK

"Tango, like running with rubber scissors."
 
___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] European and American pseudo-tango dancers

[Krasimir Stoyanov]

No, nothing to do with the style, it doesn't matter if it is nuevo or 
milonguero or classical salon.

There is a feature, that makes it true tango. Again, I am not going to 
explain, all you have eyes to see.

Two more examples:
1. Milonguero
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvYZTC27S1I

2. Nuevo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhfI-wM8q2Y


Again, nothing to do with style, it is technique, not style. And it's 
fundamental for the way dancers feel and move.



- Original Message - 
From: "Ecsedy Áron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Tango-L" 
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 10:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] European and American pseudo-tango dancers


Dear Krasimir,

They are really nice, but this is simply the question of
style-preference. It is very strange that you picked this recording. It
looks exactly like when a stage dancer tries very hard to dance like a
milonguero proficient in salón style (sometimes disregarding the music
altogether, which is not really characteristic for milongueros I
know...). Most "very milonguero" people I saw doesn't have such posture
and fluency of moves (and the slightly cheesy intro) like these stage
professionals, but they give you a little more downtoearth enjoyment of
the music, the partner and what they do.

Nevertheless, nuevo technique is here to stay, even if the actual style
will change considerably towards less movement and less open embrace moves.

Cheers,
Aron

Krasimir Stoyanov írta:
> No, I am not going to explain. If it is not obvious to you, all words on
> this world will not make you see.
>
> Compare this (tango in its truest form):
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA-mGU_X8Mc
>
> to anything from Fabian, Gustavo and company - I can't really say they 
> dance
> tango.
> Same with most people in Europe and US. Sad truth is they have no idea 
> what
> tango is.
>
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Tango For Her" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 8:37 PM
> Subject: [Tango-L] European and American pseudo-tango dancers
>
>
>
>> --- Krasimir Stoyanov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> He is an awful dancer precisely because he dances
>>> like tipical european or american pseudo-tango
>>>
>> dancer.
>>
>> This could be an interesting topic.  What is a
>> European or American pseudo-tango dancer?
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page.
>> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>> ___
>> Tango-L mailing list
>> Tango-L@mit.edu
>> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>>
>
> ___
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L@mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>
>
>


-- 
Ecsedy Áron
***
Aron ECSEDY

Tel: +36 20 66-24-071

http://www.milonga.hu/
http://www.holgyvalasz.hu/

___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l 

___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] European and American pseudo-tango dancers

[Igor Polk]

Clif,

Hey, what was so "exhibition"-istic about that tango?
They did not do anything which ordinary people are not able to do.

..If they want.

Igor Polk



___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] Video collections

[Krasimir Stoyanov]

Ok for all to have some good time watching (about 65 youtube video-links):

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=5B60ABA03526B22C
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=5BF0348F2DC77884

Of course not all of them are there to show the highest possible quality of 
tango, some clips are there to serve as not so good tango examples, so don't 
be surprised . . .




- Original Message - 
From: "Igor Polk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> It looks like Krasimir has a nice video links collection somewhere. I hope
> it is on the net.
> Why don't we exchange links with video collections? To enrich each other?

___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

[Tango-L] European and American pseudo-tango dancers

[Mario]

O.K. here's my vote for the real McCoy Argentine Tango...a lay-up.
   
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdbpjesqFpI&feature=related

   
-
Looking for last minute shopping deals?  Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

[Tango-L] A true tango

[Igor Polk]

This is a true tango:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpLqCth7DrY
Juan Carlos Copes and Cecilia Narova

How anyone could doubt !?

Igor Polk



___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] Two of My Teaching Pet Peeves

[Anton Stanley]

In response to the below posts, could someone put me straight on the
trend to hold the follower to the right side of the leader. from my very
first lesson in Tango, it was insisted upon that I keep the follower in
front of me. I found that difficult after years of Ballroom. Even today,
my teachers insist that the correct position to hold the follower is in
front. Any comments please?

Anton



(Bravo, Astrid.  I have been having this problem for years and could not

exactly pinpoint why my lower back was in so much pain from dancing with

certain people.  Thanks Carol

CS

Astrid wrote:
>> Hmmm, I'm always trying to get further outside on my left especially 
>> when
>> in close embrace. Is this my problem?
> 
> No, you are not alone. A lot of men do this, and let me tell you, the
> further left you go, the more uncomfortable it gets for the woman. 
> Especially if you turn the right side of her body at an angle to you.
It 
> means, she has to walk while constantly having her back twisted into
an 
> unnatural angle. Lasrt time I danced with a Japanese tango teacher who
took 
> this to such an extreme that he looked like he would have almost
prefered to 
> dance behind me. Why do guys do this?)

___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

[Tango-L] A true tango - Nieves

[Keith Elshaw]

Yes, a true lovely choreographed.

Now, the back-story on what it is missing:

Carlos Saura begged Maria Nieves to appear in this film, for he meant it
as a tribute to Copes and Nieves.

At the time, it was too soon after Juan dumped her to dance with his
daughter. She would have none of helping him out again - if I may put it
that way. (They later did re-unite for a tour, thank goodness).

The woman who danced in the film is obviously lovely. She copied Nieves'
part so well.

But anyone who saw Nieves dance this signature number of theirs is not
being picky by saying no one else is quite as good in this piece. It was
hers for 40 years. The last few years, she kept Juan from forgetting; from
spreading his legs too far as he does here, etc. (She matched him
perfectly in size and they were intimate since 1952 or so).

No one could STAND on the stage and look so perfect - let alone walk - as
Maria does. There are many reasons why she is a legend. None of it b.s. or
personal opinion. Just look at how history is treating her.

I hope she will forgive me for hinting at personal knowledge. Juan, too.

How I love them. The first tango I ever saw was this Cumparsita by them as
I sat in the third row in the theatre. Over the next 5 months, I watched
them do it 42 times. ALWAYS she was perfect.

She became my sister-in-law for a few years and took me close and gave me
more than she will ever know.

I think she does that to everyone in her way. But, if you know her
personally, you get touched by the gods in a special way, surely.

Mostly, she showed her perfect stage and public posture and that is what
we have all seen.

Privately, she showed her imperfect posture and you felt that was perfect,
too; for airs and pretenses she never bothered with.

Three sisters were the only women Copes ever danced with before his lovely
daughter Johanna grew up and became his partner.

The two younger sisters, Maria and Cristina, will tell you their older
sister Niata was the best. She didn't go professional; but the other two
became part of the legend.

When Nieves and Copes divorced in the early 60's, Cristina was Juan's
partner for two years. Then Maria came back and Cristina resumed her
preferred role in the company (Copes Tango Revue).

But, you should see HER dance. Maria a few years younger.

These people of whom I speak introduced me to tango and I know it changed
my life in part because THEY were tango for me. I feel the same swoon when
I recall their smile and the way they move as I do when I hear a
bandoneon.

Well - just to say:

If you want to see that Cumparsita and call it True Tango, you want to
find a version of Copes and Nieves. Then you can use all superlatives.


And I would add that I wish people outside of professional circles had
some awareness of Cristina (professional name Cristina Rey). She never
wanted the spotlight. But she deserved it every bit as much as Maria.

She joined the Copes company when she was 14 and did the hard work of
training all the new people who came in for the next 30 years. I met many
of them over the years. Gavito's first partner as a professional was
Cristina, for instance.

Perhaps her's is one of the greatest tango dancer stories never told.






___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] Men who pull to the left

[Michael]

There are salient points missing from his explanation. Notice that the leader's 
feet are pointed outward. As he steps forward with his right, there is a path 
for him to step because the left foot is pointed outward to the left. After he 
passes the left foot he hooks his right foot back towards the woman. He doesn't 
keep walking to his left. His right foot is making a "S" which my teacher calls 
the hook step. You hook outward and then inward. He describes that on the third 
step, many men continue to step away from the woman instead of bringing the 
foot together with the right.

I promise this is the last message for today. I probably hit my quota.

It's an excellent video but I feel significant points are missing. Of course, 
he could have said them when the camera wasn't rolling.

Michael
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
Time to go to sleep.

- Original Message - 
From: "Mario" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 1:45 PM
Subject: [Tango-L] Men who pull to the left


Here is a short video of walking inside/outside. Is it taught correctly?
How much further to the left would produce discomfort in the woman? 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBFFLgUpXn0


___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

[Tango-L] Where is the follower?

[Michael]

Anton:
Your teachers are correct. The woman is directly in front of you. Think of this 
way. Look at a door. The door has a hinge. The wall has a hinge. The hinges are 
interwoven. A pin drops through the hinges to keep them together so no matter 
how far the door swings, it's still attached to the wall.

Feel the indentation in your chest. The follower has a similar indentation. The 
two indentations are to line up directly in front of each other. There is an 
imaginary pin between the partners. No matter how far the woman rotates, the 
indentations have to face each other. This is why it's critical that the man 
has to keep his chest facing the woman. The lead comes from the chest. When the 
man takes the woman to the cross, he steps outside  her on his left, BUT his 
chest rotates to the right. This is called contrabody motion where the top half 
and bottom halves of the body aren't facing the same direction. It took years 
of yoga before I could do this.

As an experiment, practice with yourself. Hold your fingers in your right hand 
together and vertically place them in your indentation, which is the sternum. 
Put on music in the privacy of your home and just dance. The sensation of your 
fingers in your sternum will help you become aware of the follower when 
dancing. If possible, if people don't laugh at you at a practica, ask a woman 
to put her right hand, fingers closed, upright, in your sternum. Just dance. 
You'll have a better understanding of why the woman has to be directly in front 
of you. There is an alignment and it's difficult to dance when the alignment is 
destroyed. Women who push outward on their right arm throw me off the center. 
Your frame should be firm, not stiff. Firm and stiff don't mean the same thing.

Hope this helped. I have to return to packing for my trip to NY. The bus leaves 
@ 7:20 AM. Hopefully, there will be tickets available for purchase at City 
Center for Zotto's tango show.

Michael
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango

- Original Message - 
From: "Anton Stanley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Two of My Teaching Pet Peeves


In response to the below posts, could someone put me straight on the
trend to hold the follower to the right side of the leader. from my very
first lesson in Tango, it was insisted upon that I keep the follower in
front of me. I found that difficult after years of Ballroom. Even today,
my teachers insist that the correct position to hold the follower is in
front. Any comments please?

Anton


___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] A true tango

[Tango For Her]

One of my favorite dances is the scene from the movie,
Tango, where he dances with his real life daughter in
the salon. Is that online, anywhere?

--- Igor Polk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> This is a true tango:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpLqCth7DrY
> Juan Carlos Copes and Cecilia Narova
> 
> How anyone could doubt !?
> 
> Igor Polk
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L@mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
> 



  

Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

[Tango-L] Truth eliminates myths. But are YOU ready for this?

[Igor Polk]

Oh, Keith !

Thanks for sharing this gossip about truly wonderful people !

"a true lovely choreographed". Yes it was! By many people trying to convey
in a 3 minute piece the spirit and style of true old tango, the root of all
other styles we know ( or have heard, or do not even suspect existence of )
now.

As the root, it clearly conveys the source of many figures which were
changed to unrecognizable form in all these different styles of tango. But
we all know - fundamentals are the cornerstone of success.

It evaporates the prejudice and myths of tango, such us:

"Tango always is danced in close"
"Ganchos are not allowed"
"Legs up - that is for stage"
"Pee-wee little steps - that is only true tango"
"Treat her like .. the dance was born in bordellos, so she must look
appropriately"
"She is not allowed to make steps on her own"
"Forces are not used in tango"
"Chests are always face each other"
"They must look at each others chests"
"Feelings, feelings that is what is most important !"
"Stepping on the toe and looking like a heron make the tango a true tango !"
"Slow, very slow - that is a true way"
"Molinete is the basis of tango"
"Hip has to be free. Always. Freely dangling out of pelvis socket"
"Body never bends in tango"
 and more...

How can I finsh...
ah, why bother..
Why bother explaining thing to people which disrespect choreography. Amazing
!!!
That is the last important thing which makes a dancer, any dancer, social
dancer, great - he choreogrphes his dance right on spot to look like a piece
of art. Not like a presentation example designed for beginners ( yes, this
phrase is related to some of the previsous "true tango" videos".

Igor Polk.



___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

[Tango-L] European and American pseudo-tango dancers

[Mario]

Two Europeans..Melina + Detlef  who dance the true Argentine Tango
   
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MxNgrqr184

   
-
Never miss a thing.   Make Yahoo your homepage.
___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

[Tango-L] European and American pseudo-tango dancers

[Mario]

wow..thanks for the Ney Melo and Jennifer Bratt!  right on target.  
   
-
Looking for last minute shopping deals?  Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] Two of My Teaching Pet Peeves

[Trini y Sean (PATangoS)]

Unfortunately, I don't have time to read all of the posts
that popped up today while I was at work.  And I probably
won't until after I return from Ann Arbor.  So, please
excuse me if I end up repeating something someone else has
already mentioned.

--- Tango For Her <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Someone, PLEASE, tell me why s many teachers teach
> young followers to s-s-s-s-stretch their leg out,
> really far, in a backstep!!!  Is that the only way to
> teach them to have a straight knee and a beautiful
> leg?  Can't they have it with a shorter backstep like,
> say, in the same county?

Here teachers confuse length of the body with length along
the floor.  If a follower learns to use the length of her
body, a properly-sized step will follow.  Followers tend to
take small steps if they initiate the back step with their
knee or the middle of the thigh.  If you teach them to step
where the leg rotates in the hip socket.  This fixes a lot
of the problem.

Trini de Pittsburgh





PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
  Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh’s most popular social dance!
  http://patangos.home.comcast.net/
   



  

Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  
http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ 

___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

[Tango-L] Truest Form of Tango

[Tango For Her]

This could be quite interesting.  Let's try, without
explanations and trash talking, just listing people's
examples of "The Truest Form of Tango".  Again, no
need to degrade anyone for listing what they like.  

This could become a great list from which to learn and
compare styles.


=== Krasimir === 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA-mGU_X8Mc 
Milonguero
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvYZTC27S1I
Nuevo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhfI-wM8q2Y

=== Igor Polk === 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmPzXwjN8Ac 





  

Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  
http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ 

___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] European and American pseudo-tango dancers

[Krasimir Stoyanov]

No, I am not going to explain. If it is not obvious to you, all words on 
this world will not make you see.

Compare this (tango in its truest form):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA-mGU_X8Mc

to anything from Fabian, Gustavo and company - I can't really say they dance 
tango.
Same with most people in Europe and US. Sad truth is they have no idea what 
tango is.



- Original Message - 
From: "Tango For Her" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 8:37 PM
Subject: [Tango-L] European and American pseudo-tango dancers


> --- Krasimir Stoyanov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> He is an awful dancer precisely because he dances
>> like tipical european or american pseudo-tango
> dancer.
>>
>
> This could be an interesting topic.  What is a
> European or American pseudo-tango dancer?
>
>
> 
> 
> Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page.
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> ___
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L@mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l 

___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] Truth eliminates myths. But are YOU ready for this?

[Tango For Her]

Igor wrote: 

> That is the last important thing which makes 
> a dancer, any dancer, social dancer, great 
> - he choreogrphes his dance right on spot 
> to look like a piece of art. 

Cool!  We can all finally agree!!!  All of us 1000's
of great social dancers choreograph our dance right on
the spot to look [ or feel ] like a piece of art.  

Here's to improvisation!

The recent posts took us through a discussion of where
choreo fits in the classroom.  Something a little
different than your email was talking about.  But,
again, thanks, from the 1000's of us, for the
recognition!  :o)





  

Be a better friend, newshound, and 
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.  
http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ 

___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

[Tango-L] Video collections

[Mario]

My name is Nacotete on Youtube, check out my Favorites and please let me know 
where your's are...also, any playlists??
   
  http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=nacotete

   
-
Never miss a thing.   Make Yahoo your homepage.
___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] European and American pseudo-tango dancers

[Ilene Marder]

the "milonguero" video is beautiful dancing but I sure wouldn't want to 
be dancing next to them at a real milonga...
I'd either get kicked in the teeth or tripped by her extended legwork!!
I.




Krasimir Stoyanov wrote:

No, nothing to do with the style, it doesn't matter if it is nuevo or 
milonguero or classical salon.

There is a feature, that makes it true tango. Again, I am not going to 
explain, all you have eyes to see.

Two more examples:
1. Milonguero
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvYZTC27S1I


>  
>
___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

[Tango-L] Video collections

[Igor Polk]

It looks like Krasimir has a nice video links collection somewhere. I hope
it is on the net.
Why don't we exchange links with video collections? To enrich each other?

I've already mentioned mine:
http://www.virtuar.com/tango/linkblog.htm


Igor Polk,




___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] European and American pseudo-tango dancers

[Clif]

Krasimir, 
Scuse me for saying so but, isn't this "exhibition" tango? How can this be 
"tango in its truest form?" 
 
You tango gods confuse me with your demagoguery. 
 
Hey, I have an idea, shut up and dance.
 
Just a thought.
Clif
___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] European and American pseudo-tango dancers

[Ecsedy Áron]

Dear Krasimir,

They are really nice, but this is simply the question of 
style-preference. It is very strange that you picked this recording. It 
looks exactly like when a stage dancer tries very hard to dance like a 
milonguero proficient in salón style (sometimes disregarding the music 
altogether, which is not really characteristic for milongueros I 
know...). Most "very milonguero" people I saw doesn't have such posture 
and fluency of moves (and the slightly cheesy intro) like these stage 
professionals, but they give you a little more downtoearth enjoyment of 
the music, the partner and what they do.

Nevertheless, nuevo technique is here to stay, even if the actual style 
will change considerably towards less movement and less open embrace moves.

Cheers,
Aron

Krasimir Stoyanov írta:
> No, I am not going to explain. If it is not obvious to you, all words on 
> this world will not make you see.
>
> Compare this (tango in its truest form):
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA-mGU_X8Mc
>
> to anything from Fabian, Gustavo and company - I can't really say they dance 
> tango.
> Same with most people in Europe and US. Sad truth is they have no idea what 
> tango is.
>
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Tango For Her" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 8:37 PM
> Subject: [Tango-L] European and American pseudo-tango dancers
>
>
>   
>> --- Krasimir Stoyanov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> 
>>> He is an awful dancer precisely because he dances
>>> like tipical european or american pseudo-tango
>>>   
>> dancer.
>> 
>> This could be an interesting topic.  What is a
>> European or American pseudo-tango dancer?
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page.
>> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>> ___
>> Tango-L mailing list
>> Tango-L@mit.edu
>> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l 
>> 
>
> ___
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L@mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>
>
>   


-- 
Ecsedy Áron
***
Aron ECSEDY

Tel: +36 20 66-24-071

http://www.milonga.hu/
http://www.holgyvalasz.hu/

___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] teaching technique vs. choreography

[Tom Stermitz]

Jay makes some good points.

The most important point he makes is: "Beginning students are anxious  
to start dancing."

This goes double for retaining the men.

Men quit tango when they are frustrated or unconfident. Complicated  
patterns keep men in that frustrated, complicated mindset. It is not a  
personality flaw on the part of the man; rather the teacher who  
forgets the beginner mindset.

Walking a beautiful woman around the room can be taught in a one hour  
class. He leaves excited, thrilled, confident, happy, successful.

The SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT RULE for retaining men is to recognize this,  
and make sure they leave each class, each month, each workshop, each  
series feeling confident and successful.


On Jan 18, 2008, at 9:58 AM, Jay Rabe wrote:

> I agree that technique (how to walk/step, posture, balance, how to  
> lead, how to follow) is the most important thing to teach. But, some  
> comments:
>
> 1. Learning technique is a life-long process. There are dozens if  
> not hundreds of individual "technique principles." It's not  
> something you learn once and then you're done. You may quickly learn  
> some key points, but refinement and fine-tuning continues for years/ 
> decades.
> 2. "Pure" technique is pretty boring, and hardly qualifies as  
> "dancing." Beginning students are anxious to start dancing.
> 3. Simple steps can be executed with pretty sloppy technique. More  
> complicated steps/patterns require more refined, more precise  
> technique.
> ...
> I guess the point I'm trying to make is that you can't effectively  
> teach JUST technique without boring and losing all but the most die- 
> hard students. You have to embed the technique instruction into a  
> dancing context of some step or pattern.

___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] A true tango

[Astrid]

> One of my favorite dances is the scene from the movie,
> Tango, where he dances with his real life daughter in
> the salon. Is that online, anywhere?
>
I believe, I have seen it on youtube. But I did not know this was his 
daughter. 

___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

[Tango-L] Two of My Teaching Pet Peeves

[Mario]

hello,  I'm guessing this is Mel. You did me a giant favor by posting that last 
one on walking, etc.  Mil gracias!  after one minute of heel toe instead of 
balls of feet walking, my wife said that I was walking much better.. wow, 
thanks.
   
-
Looking for last minute shopping deals?  Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] Men who pull to the left

[Astrid]

> Here is a short video of walking inside/outside. Is it taught correctly?
> How much further to the left would produce discomfort in the woman?
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBFFLgUpXn0

I don't know what to say as the teacher is using the practice hold and we 
are talking about the right embrace. However I am stating to see where the 
men's mistake comes from. So you mean, some guys are so stiff, they cannot 
even think of putting a little tortion into their bodies to step outside the 
women while remaining in the embrace while making her twist twice as much 
just for his comfort? Or is it pure ignorance?

How much further left, Mario? You are not supposed to go off to the left at 
all, the shoulders should remain in alignment as much as possible. 
Definitely not more than one or two inches off, IMO. Instead, you should 
work on the flexibility of your waist.


>

___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

[Tango-L] "the disruptive effects of rock and roll on tango"

[carolyn merritt]

For those interested in a thought-provoking read on contemporary tango
music, there's an interesting article in the Spring/ Summer 2007
edition of Latin American Music Review - Tango Renovacion: On the Uses
of Music History in Post-Crisis Argentina, by Morgan Luker.  I can't
attach the article, but have included an excerpt below and a link.  I
was only able to access through my university library's account with
Project Muse, but perhaps you can request access directly through the
publisher:

http://libproxy.temple.edu:2119/journals/latin_american_music_review/v028/28.1luker.html
http://muse.jhu.edu/login?uri=/journals/latin_american_music_review/v028/28.1luker.html

Towards the end, he discusses La Chicana (the band seen in the
documentary 'Tango: Un Giro Extrano) and their claim to authenticity
through a 'rougher' tango that is closer in spirit to rock and 1920s
tango than golden era orchestra recordings.
One of the most important points he makes - certainly relevant to
discussions of the dance as well - is that debates over 'realness' and
'authenticity' are at heart about inclusion and exclusion.  Claims of
truth and authenticity are about more than preservation, they are
motivated by very real social and economic implications.

Best,
Carolyn

excerpt (pp 83-5):

"La Chicana was formed … with the clear intention of producing tango
music with a
rougher edge. They favor the 'canyengue' rhythms and humorous melo-
drama of early tango as opposed to more solemn later flavors. They truly
believe that the essence of tango lies in its 1920s spirit of rebellion and
spontaneity [which] puts it ideologically closer to rock music than to the
orchestral forms that popularized it in the world since the '40s" (lachi-
canatango.com).

This statement makes several complicated historic and aesthetic moves
that get to the heart of the work of new form tango groups. La Chicana
proclaims golden age tango to be a less than authentic rendition of the
"true" tango spirit due to both its aesthetic features (the "solemn fla-
vors") and its international reception ("popularized in the world"). The
group's rejection of the golden age, however, does not represent a
sweeping dismissal of tango history, but rather an invitation for further
and deeper historical exploration. Indeed, rather than discursively posi-
tioning themselves at the forefront of a progressively developing tango
tradition, La Chicana cites a pre-golden age moment as their inspira-
tion, the music of which they claim to be emblematic of the true tango
experience and sensibility.

At the same time, by claiming that the "rough edge" of early tango rep-
resents an oppositional position vis-à-vis hegemonic expressive forms sim-
ilar to that of rock, La Chicana at once incorporates and validates the
musical and stylistic sensibilities of rock as part of tango. This is a crucial
claim, not least because of the confluence it sets up between tanguero and
rockero aesthetics that have historically been taken as opposites. This claim
of confluence is also important to these groups because many new tango
musicians have extensive backgrounds in rock. Melingo, for instance, was
once a prominent figure in rock nacional, playing in the 1980s with Los
Abuelos de la Nada, Los Twist, and alongside Argentine rock superstar
Charly García (rock.com.ar).

The discursive links between tango and rock relate to the continuing
saga of how outside aesthetic influences and forms are variously accepted
or rejected in Argentine culture and what role they play in the imagina-
tion of the Argentine self.  Debates over such influences stretch at least
as far back as the "civilization vs. barbarism" dichotomy articulated by
educator and statesman Domingo F. Sarmiento (1811–1888) in his 1845
book Facundo(Sarmiento 1998).  The variously positive or negative per-
ceptions of outside influences in Argentine culture remain a crucial issue
for many artists, and clearly play a role in strategies of tango renovation:
while the new orquestas reject the tango vanguard as overly influenced by
international styles and therefore not real tango, La Chicana rejects the
music of the golden age at least partially because of its stylistic codifica-
tion and acceptance in the wider world. At the same time, groups like
La Chicana embrace the repertoire and aesthetic of musical genres imag-
ined as coming from the "outside" such as rock and world music that
are rejected by others because of their perceived foreignness. By incor-
porating elements from international genres into their original tango
compositions, La Chicana creates music that sounds not entirely unlike
contemporary pop music yet claims to be more directly aligned with the
spirit of "real" tango, that is, the genre that emerged from the conflu-
ence of the local and the transnational in the heterogeneous milieu of
turn-of-the-century Buenos Aires.

So is this "real" tango? Who can say? What is important to recognize
is that contemporary tango as performed 

Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances

[Chris, UK]

> the sequences do NOT work. Nobody dances like argentinian here

Where is here, Krasimir?

> I think it is the same in most places in the world.

 "And see, you go to Europe, most of these people dance the way we do ..."

   Fabia Salas, interviewed by Keith Elshaw, 2001

--
Chris





___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] Two of My Teaching Pet Peeves

[Tom Stermitz]

I share your two pet peeves (three if you think about it):
- How to walk in a straight line.
- How not to step on her feet. How not to get stepped on.
- How to walk to the cross without going too far outside.

(part 2)

WALKING IN A STRAIGHT LINE

As your body moves forward, your foot should land under your center of  
balance. If she is in front of you, then you are also stepping under  
her center of balance. This is true by stupid definition: It is called  
"walking without falling over". But, there is a real reason why  
leaders have difficulty with balance and walking in a straight line.  
He is trying to avoid stepping on her, and compensates by moving his  
feet to either side. On the follower's side, she tries to overstep  
backwards to get her feet out of the way.

Solutions:

Leader needs to move forward in a natural "side walk" stride. A  
purposeful, upright, bold stride of the leader helps everything: Land  
heel-ball, end with the weight transfer with his "hips, heart and  
head" over the ball of the foot. This keeps his posture forward,  
upright and on balance. The follower's connection to his body moves  
her backward, and her feet can "naturally" float to catch her body.

Landing on the ball of the foot is a stylistic treatment, that is a  
direct contradiction of 20 or 40 years of daily walking. Maybe it's  
desirable for some versions of tango (stage, for example), but for  
regular social dancing it is so much better to work with normal,  
natural movements. If you teach a class of beginners to lead with the  
toes or ball of the foot, you will produce a class of guys worried  
about their feet and mincing across the room instead of moving their  
bodies boldly.


WALKING BACKWARDS GRACEFULLY

Walking "naturally" backwards means that the ACTIVE leg is the  
supporting leg, the one that pushes her body through space, and the  
FLOATING leg stretches downwards and back, rather than reaching.  
Reaching and engaging the butt muscles, digs into her SI joints. The  
recently popular, "culo alegre" style of arching the lower back makes  
this much worse. Maybe the 20-year old ballerina is not yet injured,  
but for normal women, the wear and tear on the back is really harmful.  
Consider also that pregnancy loosens a woman's joints, and has a  
specific impact on the SI joints.

There is a simple way to address this: Keep your heels downward,  
almost grazing the floor. A gently straight leg comes from keeping a  
soft butt, stretching the inner thigh, psoas and lower tummy, and  
stretching the achilles.

Quick survey: How many women have sore backs after a workshop weekend?
- Do you reach back or stretch downwards?
- Is your butt soft or tight muscles?
- Are you trying to take big steps?
- How's your core support?
- Is your belly-button pulled toward your backbone?
- Is your heel pointed downward?

Secondly, reaching way back, away from the leader disconnects the  
woman's leg from herself. She is guessing how long the stride will be,  
rather than matching the float of her leg to his forward movement. The  
most connected strides come when the leader's and follower's legs  
match speed and distance. One of the best exercises I have to discover  
this is for the follower to "almost brush his thigh" as it comes  
forward. If she can slow down her float to match his tempo, she will  
always be out of his way, and never out of connection, both internal  
and with him.

Tom Stermitz
http://www.tango.org
Denver, CO 80207


___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] Two of My Teaching Pet Peeves

[Tom Stermitz]

I share your two pet peeves (three if you think about it):
- How to walk in a straight line.
- How not to step on her feet. How not to get stepped on.
- How to walk to the cross without going too far outside.

These are real issues for all newcomers to dance, and it is  
understandable that it would take some effort to resolve them.  
Teachers can and should figure out how to speed the learning process  
and correct bad technique earlier on. Sensible body mechanics are  
often compromised by stylistic ideas, which can even lead to injury.  
The followers back and SI joint is a weak point.

First, to sympathize with the newcomer to tango:
- The new leader is really afraid of stepping on her, so he typically  
overcompensates.
- Walking backwards gracefully is difficult and certainly much more  
unfamiliar than walking forward.
- Spiraling movements (moving outside to the left of her) are much  
harder to do than walking straight forward
- He sees the teacher's movement, but has a tendency to exaggerate it.


(Part 1)

SPIRALING AND WALKING OUTSIDE (TO THE CROSS)

My pet peeve is leaders who over-lead the cross. They walk way outside  
and their movement shouts: I'M GOING TO CROSS N!". That  
habituates the followers to gross, even grotesquely exaggerated  
movements.

I know. It is popular to teach that he should lead her cross with a  
spiral. I prefer leading the cross mostly with the axis. I think of  
the leader FOLLOWING her with his spiral as he walks outside, leading  
the cross with the axis shifting slightly diagonal, and then un- 
spiraling to follow her as she moves to the cross.

Again, sympathy for the beginner is important. Walking in a straight  
line is much easier than rotational movements: spiraling, pivoting and  
ochos.  Walking to the cross introduces two difficult things at once:  
walking off to the side which has to be coordinated with a spiraling  
movement. The beginner visually picks it up the teacher's movement,  
but then exaggerates it when they try to replicate it.

My solution is to keep the walk to the cross much more gentle, more  
linear and with less twisting.


On Jan 17, 2008, at 6:27 PM, Tango For Her wrote:

> But, I have a few pet peeves about a lot of tango
> teachers.
>
> Look.  You want your beginning leaders and
> intermediate leaders to stop knocking their followers
> off balance?  Find ways to teach them to have their
> left foot step in front of them rather than off to the
> left.  They ALL do it!  STOP THEM!  Why go on with
> your classes if you are going to keep letting them
> step slightly off to the left with their left foot?
> ...
> Someone, PLEASE, tell me why s many teachers teach
> young followers to s-s-s-s-stretch their leg out,
> really far, in a backstep!!!  Is that the only way to
> teach them to have a straight knee and a beautiful
> leg?  Can't they have it with a shorter backstep like,
> say, in the same county?
> ...
> Whew  I'm okay. Now.



Tom Stermitz
http://www.tango.org
Denver, CO 80207


___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

[Tango-L] European and American pseudo-tango dancers

[Tango For Her]

--- Krasimir Stoyanov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> He is an awful dancer precisely because he dances
> like tipical european or american pseudo-tango
dancer.
> 

This could be an interesting topic.  What is a
European or American pseudo-tango dancer?


  

Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

[Tango-L] Men who pull to the left

[Mario]

Here is a short video of walking inside/outside. Is it taught correctly?
How much further to the left would produce discomfort in the woman? 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBFFLgUpXn0

   
-
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.
___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] A true tango - Nieves

[Astrid]

> Carlos Saura begged Maria Nieves to appear in this film, for he meant it
> as a tribute to Copes and Nieves.
>
Wow, I had no idea that Narova was replacing Nieves in this film ! Like this 
it looks like, Copes is just sort of in there accidentally, teaching the 
other actors. So, are the other characters also meant to mean somebody who 
really exists? 

___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

[Tango-L] teaching technique vs. choreography

[Jay Rabe]

I agree that technique (how to walk/step, posture, balance, how to lead, how to 
follow) is the most important thing to teach. But, some comments:

1. Learning technique is a life-long process. There are dozens if not hundreds 
of individual "technique principles." It's not something you learn once and 
then you're done. You may quickly learn some key points, but refinement and 
fine-tuning continues for years/decades.
2. "Pure" technique is pretty boring, and hardly qualifies as "dancing." 
Beginning students are anxious to start dancing.
3. Simple steps can be executed with pretty sloppy technique. More complicated 
steps/patterns require more refined, more precise technique.

So you teach the technique that is necessary for whatever steps you're teaching.
If you've got absolute beginners, you start with posture, and the basics of how 
to step/walk. Then you teach the embrace and rudimentary lead and follow for 
walking. Then you teach them the first "pattern" - simple walking and pausing 
in LOD in open embrace. But now at least they're dancing. If they have trouble, 
you refine wherever they're deficient, whether posture, embrace, or lead/follow 
technique.

Then if you want to teach them turns, you refine the technique of leading, by 
teaching how to turn the torso/chest necessary to make the turn happen. If you 
want to teach close embrace, you refine the posture/body-mechanics technique of 
having intention forward, weight on balls of feet, and body held straight 
without tipping or bending.

And so it goes. When you want to teach another step - ochos, check-steps, the 
cross, whatever - you refine the basic technique with the subtleties that are 
necessary for the new step/pattern.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that you can't effectively teach JUST 
technique without boring and losing all but the most die-hard students. You 
have to embed the technique instruction into a dancing context of some step or 
pattern.

If you try to teach algebra as nothing but x's and y's, it gets pretty dry. A 
student is likely to ask what good is all this. If you show them how to 
calculate whether the 47oz package is cheaper than the 28oz package that's on 
sale, then it's got context. So if you teach technique in the context of a 
step, then it's got relevance and the student can immediately see that, hey, if 
I use the right technique, viola, the step works.

  J
 TangoMoments.com

_
Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail®-get your 
"fix".
http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx
___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] Men who pull to the left

[Chris, UK]

> Here is a short video of walking inside/outside. Is it taught correctly?

That can't be answered from examining the teaching. One has to examine the 
learning... which is not shown in this video.

--
Chris
___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] European and American pseudo-tango dancers

[meaning of life]

it was beautiful.
they had great connection.
they were having fun.
they were having a conversation in dance.
they were on balance.
they had a nice frame.
he was leading, she was following.
they were responding to each others moves.
their moves related nicely to the music.

looked like tango to me.

lets see, "looked like a duck, quacked like a duck"

but it was not a duck

hellooo


The Tangonista
Sponsered by P.E.T.A. (People Expressing Tango Attitude)
NOTICE - no cats were injured in the making of our music

_
Climb to the top of the charts!  Play the word scramble challenge with star 
power.
http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan
___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] European and American pseudo-tango dancers

[Clif]

Igor, 
Thanks for the reply...

According to the preponderance of information given here, if one is doing 
exhibition, then it can't possibly be "real".

In this dance shown... A true dancer of tango would never step forward on the 
first step. Would never reverse back down line of dance. Would ever do such 
deep boleos and block traffic on the floor. 

I mean, how can this be the "truest form of tango" with these glaring issues of 
floor mastery.


Clif, (with tongue firmly planted in cheek.)

___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] European and American pseudo-tango dancers, and Argentine truest tangos

[Krasimir Stoyanov]

- Original Message - 
From: "Igor Polk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> But what about this one:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmPzXwjN8Ac
> ( dance starts at about 2:40 )
> 
> Isn't it a truest form of tango too? ;)

:-)

Another example: Ney Melo and Jennifer Bratt:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SodIdnzP4gI

Excellent stuff, I think they are the best non-argentinean couple.

___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] Men who pull to the left

[Keith]

Mario,

Chris can't answer the question, but I can. The teaching of Oscar Casas is 
excellent. 
Clear and precise.

Keith, HK

 On Sat Jan 19  4:10 , "Chris, UK"  sent:

>> Here is a short video of walking inside/outside. Is it taught correctly?
>
>That can't be answered from examining the teaching. One has to examine the 
>learning... which is not shown in this video.
>
>--
>Chris


___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] European and American pseudo-tango dancers

[Ilene Marder]

my nomination for "real" milonguero, exhibition...with no need to change 
their style for the milonga floor!
Pocho y Nellie...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ak2y84C-9Y&feature=related


helene eckert wrote:

> but they would NEVER dance like that in a milonga !!! they are very 
> respectful and well educated... in a milonga, they will of course 
> adapt their dance to the crowd !!!
> Hélène (Geenva, Switzerland)
>
>
>
> 
> > Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 16:13:58 -0500
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > CC: tango-l@mit.edu
> > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] European and American pseudo-tango dancers
> >
> >
> > the "milonguero" video is beautiful dancing but I sure wouldn't want to
> > be dancing next to them at a real milonga...
> > I'd either get kicked in the teeth or tripped by her extended legwork!!
> > I.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Krasimir Stoyanov wrote:
> >
> > No, nothing to do with the style, it doesn't matter if it is nuevo or
> > milonguero or classical salon.
> >
> > There is a feature, that makes it true tango. Again, I am not going to
> > explain, all you have eyes to see.
> >
> > Two more examples:
> > 1. Milonguero
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvYZTC27S1I
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > ___
> > Tango-L mailing list
> > Tango-L@mit.edu
> > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>
> 
> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! MSN Messenger 
> 

___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] European and American pseudo-tango dancers

[Keith]

Wow, for once I'm actually agreeing with Igor. People like Clif just think that 
if 
dancing is really, really good - it must be a show or an exhibition. Clif, I 
think 
you're setting your sights too low. Of course, we can never be as good as the
professionals but at least we should aspire to be as good as we can possibly be.

Keith, HK


 On Sat Jan 19  4:51 , "Igor Polk"  sent:

>Clif,
>
>Hey, what was so "exhibition"-istic about that tango?
>They did not do anything which ordinary people are not able to do.
>
>..If they want.
>
>Igor Polk
>
>


___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] A true tango

[Anton Stanley]

I would have no doubt if you had labeled it "true Show Tango".

Anton


This is a true tango: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpLqCth7DrY
Juan Carlos Copes and Cecilia Narova

How anyone could doubt !?

Igor Polk



___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l



___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] A true tango

[Astrid]

tango for her:
> One of my favorite dances is the scene from the movie,
> Tango, where he dances with his real life daughter in
> the salon. Is that online, anywhere?
> 
I think, you mean this one. It is not his daughter, it's Yacono.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-7ksPeNsz8&feature=related
___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] Milonga 101 -- conversation between dances

[Astrid]

> First, as a person, Fabian is absolutely top-notch.

Sorry, tango for her, but I can't see anything "top notch" about Fabian. 
Maybe the fact that he is an ex-lawyer gone full time tango dancer "because 
there is more money in tango" impresses you. Having said that, he is still a 
lot nicer than Carolina...


___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] A true tango

[Krasimir Stoyanov]

Do you really think this is tango? I think y?u are just challenging us.

Because I think this is a ballet on tango theme, nothing more. The feature 
that makes it tango is not there.


- Original Message - 
From: "Igor Polk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 1:47 AM
Subject: [Tango-L] A true tango


> This is a true tango:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpLqCth7DrY
> Juan Carlos Copes and Cecilia Narova 

___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] Two of My Teaching Pet Peeves

[Krasimir Stoyanov]

Both are possible, and both are correct. Most Argentineans dance with the 
follower slightly to the right - but, in my experience, not many are the 
people that have the necessary posture and dissociation to perform correctly 
in this position.


- Original Message - 
From: "Anton Stanley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 2:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Two of My Teaching Pet Peeves


> In response to the below posts, could someone put me straight on the
> trend to hold the follower to the right side of the leader. from my very
> first lesson in Tango, it was insisted upon that I keep the follower in
> front of me. I found that difficult after years of Ballroom. Even today,
> my teachers insist that the correct position to hold the follower is in
> front. Any comments please?
>
> Anton
>
>
>
> (Bravo, Astrid.  I have been having this problem for years and could not
>
> exactly pinpoint why my lower back was in so much pain from dancing with
>
> certain people.  Thanks Carol
>
> CS
>
> Astrid wrote:
>>> Hmmm, I'm always trying to get further outside on my left especially
>>> when
>>> in close embrace. Is this my problem?
>>
>> No, you are not alone. A lot of men do this, and let me tell you, the
>> further left you go, the more uncomfortable it gets for the woman.
>> Especially if you turn the right side of her body at an angle to you.
> It
>> means, she has to walk while constantly having her back twisted into
> an
>> unnatural angle. Lasrt time I danced with a Japanese tango teacher who
> took
>> this to such an extreme that he looked like he would have almost
> prefered to
>> dance behind me. Why do guys do this?)
>
> ___
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L@mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l 

___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

Re: [Tango-L] A true tango

[Krasimir Stoyanov]

Yes, surely not his daughter.
When I first saw this movie, I thought this was perfect tango.
Continued to think so in the next couple of years as I watched it some more 
times.
Then. for some years, I did not watch it.
And, an year ago, I saw this same scene - no, it is not tango at all - it is 
ballet.

About his daughter, Johana Copes, I've seen her dance real tango, but not 
him (the father).


- Original Message - >
 I think, you mean this one. It is not his daughter, it's Yacono.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-7ksPeNsz8&feature=related

___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l

[Tango-L] A True tango - Copes

[Keith Elshaw]

Context.

Copes is known for being the first person to choreograph tango for
professional dancers on stage.

!

You could say he invented the nuevo tango of his time (early 50's). He
gave Piazzolla (and so many other -performers and theatrical artists) jobs
and a place. (http://ToTANGO.net/copes.html)

This Cumparsita is his signature piece.

But it was created with his partner of 4 decades, Maria Nieves.

Like what he does or not personally in the context of the times; but no
one has achieved what he did. Neither Maria. They were the hub of the
tango industry. His ideas and image portrayals are now thought of as the
pure stuff of Argentine tango on stage. We are all his children. Their's.

True tango is to me the social dance. He never claimed to be doing that.
___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l