Re: [Tango-L] Beginners and milongas
Since we all hate the 8CB paso basico so much and feel it is a failed teaching method that encourages the wrong kind of dancing and collisions on the pista, how do we all feel about the open frame 6CB (modified box step) that is frequently taught for milonga? I say it is a nice, simple figure that is easy and fun, which lets beginners feel a lot of confidence and gives them practice in floor traffic. The key words in beginner retention being easy and fun. (she said, donning the same flamewear as Doug) CS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: alex Most fail to see tango in its social light - that it is a social dance - a social experience. Tango has its own culture. (Some have called it a cult.) Beginner classes often fail in not teaching or conveying the other aspects of tango (beyond the dance, the vocabulary, the technique) - not delving into the history, the culture, the social aspects and ultimately the (local) opportunities available to dance tango socially on a regular basis. /alex Lindy Hop is not easy. Most(?) Lindy Hoppers come in via east coast swing which is rhythmically much simpler, is (arguably) NOT the REAL swing, often teaches bad habits (giant rock steps, arm yanking and girl tossing among others) that need to be unlearned, and all sorts of other bad things. But it is easy and fun. In almost no time, people get it and are dancing and having a good time. In six months most are pretty good. Those that are inclined and able move on to Lindy and/or Balboa and/or West Coast Swing. Many are happy to be where they are, simply dancing east coast swing. Tango has a very fun, rhythmically simple, mechanism for getting people out dancing and having a good time quickly. It is called Milonga. If beginners were taught 8 to 10 basic Milonga patterns, got to walk/run around without all of the culture, the history, the expectations and the occasional outright arrogance that makes Tango simultaneously so subtle, so beautiful and so difficult, I bet that many more (in the US at least) would stick and then move on to a real study of Tango. Totally off the wall suggestion (dons flameproof attitude): What if beginners were taught Milonga, and the first, say six or so songs of the Milonga after a beginner lesson were Milonga, and the beginners were encouraged to change partners after EVERY song (I agree with Carol Shepherd's comments regarding the negative impact of tandas on beginners)? Yes, not PC and totally culturally incorrect. But it might help get dancers, especially younger dancers, having fun and dancing a lot sooner. It might even get them to stick. doug ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l -- Carol Ruth Shepherd Arborlaw PLC Ann Arbor MI USA 734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f Arborlaw - a legal blog for entrepreneurs and small business http://arborlaw.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] beginners and milonga
Interesting. When I learned D8CB tango from Ray Hogan and Amy Calio in Detroit 10 years ago (open frame), after about 3-4 months, the next dance on the agenda was milonga. Difficulty was very clearly presented as tango, milonga, vals. We didn't even get to vals until level 3. Milonga was introduced as 6CB paso basico and after some time we got a few variation steps, one titled along the lines of 'paso borracho' and something else I functionally describe as sideways traveling ochos. None of these were small steps, they were ballroom sized steps. And milonga was characterized as always one step per beat. Maybe this was to simplify it for our rudimentary abilities but it was presented as a stylistic dictate that separated the look and feel of the dances. Vals had the tiniest steps of all of them by far, and fast back ochos in 3 were encouraged (but difficult, and treacherous on a crowded floor. Actually all of the milonga/vals we learned was treacherous on a crowded floor. But incredibly exuberant and fun on a non-crowded floor.) CS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Traditionally, tango is taught first in its basic form, then as waltz, then milonga because they are progressively more difficult and variations on tango, not the other way around (if taught correctly). The basic steps and elements that one learns in tango are the foundation for the other two. Unfortunately milonga is often not taught properly and students are heavily influenced by performances they see instead of learning to dance it socially. Milonga is quite a bit different from tango...it is not just faster tango. Although it is rhythmic and fun it also is more subtle and has smaller and different steps, and others that are rarely done, if at all, like crosses, which are common to regular tango. Theoretically, it sounds fun to start that way, but pedagogically speaking it is a little like putting the cart before the horse. cheers, Charles -- Carol Ruth Shepherd Arborlaw PLC Ann Arbor MI USA 734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f http://arborlaw.com contract corporate counsel for creative companies ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Beginners and milongas
alex Most fail to see tango in its social light - that it is a social dance - a social experience. Tango has its own culture. (Some have called it a cult.) Beginner classes often fail in not teaching or conveying the other aspects of tango (beyond the dance, the vocabulary, the technique) - not delving into the history, the culture, the social aspects and ultimately the (local) opportunities available to dance tango socially on a regular basis. /alex Lindy Hop is not easy. Most(?) Lindy Hoppers come in via east coast swing which is rhythmically much simpler, is (arguably) NOT the REAL swing, often teaches bad habits (giant rock steps, arm yanking and girl tossing among others) that need to be unlearned, and all sorts of other bad things. But it is easy and fun. In almost no time, people get it and are dancing and having a good time. In six months most are pretty good. Those that are inclined and able move on to Lindy and/or Balboa and/or West Coast Swing. Many are happy to be where they are, simply dancing east coast swing. Tango has a very fun, rhythmically simple, mechanism for getting people out dancing and having a good time quickly. It is called Milonga. If beginners were taught 8 to 10 basic Milonga patterns, got to walk/run around without all of the culture, the history, the expectations and the occasional outright arrogance that makes Tango simultaneously so subtle, so beautiful and so difficult, I bet that many more (in the US at least) would stick and then move on to a real study of Tango. Totally off the wall suggestion (dons flameproof attitude): What if beginners were taught Milonga, and the first, say six or so songs of the Milonga after a beginner lesson were Milonga, and the beginners were encouraged to change partners after EVERY song (I agree with Carol Shepherd's comments regarding the negative impact of tandas on beginners)? Yes, not PC and totally culturally incorrect. But it might help get dancers, especially younger dancers, having fun and dancing a lot sooner. It might even get them to stick. doug ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Beginners and milongas
What's the point of replacing one 'basic figure' with another basic figure? Especially as the 6CB incudes the worst elements of the 8CB, i.e. the back step and the Resolution. I think the only common ground so far in this discussion is that there should be no such thing as a basic figure in Tango. Keith, HK On Sab Feb 16 1:35 , Carol Shepherd sent: Since we all hate the 8CB paso basico so much and feel it is a failed teaching method that encourages the wrong kind of dancing and collisions on the pista, how do we all feel about the open frame 6CB (modified box step) that is frequently taught for milonga? ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Tango-L Helping Newbies Dance in Tight Spaces
- Why not show them something they all already know how to do? Remember your first dancing? What did you do? Well, you put your arms around the girl's waist and she put her arms around your shoulders and you stood in place, rocking back and forth ( ahem..Rock Step!) Tell them to use this whenever navigation becomes a problem. That is certainly what the milongueros do. It also helps the newbies become aware of where their weight and the weight of their partner is. They can make a 180 turn doing little rock steps to see if there is an escape route out of a traffic jam and never go against the line of dance. Nancy Rito es la danza en tu vida y el tango que tu amas te quema en su llama de: Bailarina de tango por: Horacio Sanguinetti Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Tango-L Beginners Teachers
IMO, if, over time, a beginner doesn't develop a love and feel for classic argentine tango music and in addition can't find the beat, no matter how many months of classes he/she attends or how many different (if available) teachers are used, then I believe it's a lost cause. What does a teacher do in this case? pk http://torontoargentinetango.blogspot.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango-L Helping Newbies Dance in Tight Spaces
( New leaders, save these!!! ) Nice! Here's another: Back when I was just past being a newbie, but still could only do the basic few patterns and only in one direction, I got some helpful advice. There was an extra teacher hanging out in the room, helping here and there. :o) This move really gave me some freedom (it's a front ocho to my right side): I am on my right foot. My follower is on her left foot. We are facing each other. I pivot her so that her toes are pointing to my right side. I lead her to take a front step. I pivot her so that her toes are in line to step back in front of me. Yes, I am leading a front ocho. She steps back in front of me. I pivot her so that her toes are pointing back at me, again. Done! You can also teach the leader to step back while she is stepping forward, then, step in place while she completes the front ocho. YES, new leaders are going to chicken-wing the hell out of that move. YES, they are going to lead it with their arms rather than their body. But, at least, they have the freedom to do a cool move without going anywhere! Hmmm, I could have written that better. Was that visual enough? :o) --- NANCY [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Why not show them something they all already know how to do? Remember your first dancing? What did you do? Well, you put your arms around the girl's waist and she put her arms around your shoulders and you stood in place, rocking back and forth ( ahem..Rock Step!) Tell them to use this whenever navigation becomes a problem. That is certainly what the milongueros do. It also helps the newbies become aware of where their weight and the weight of their partner is. They can make a 180 turn doing little rock steps to see if there is an escape route out of a traffic jam and never go against the line of dance. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango-L Helping Newbies Dance in Tight Spaces
Maybe you mean that a front ocho figure is a good holding pattern? Or did you mean that a front ocho or back ocho figure can also be over- or under-rotated to realign the couple's direction, to navigate around a couple that has stopped to execute some kind of non-progressing figure. Also the milonga cross (ocho cortado). Tom Stermitz showed some great tips a few years back on leads using diagonals from the line of dance, to work into empty corners and to the sides, to have enough space to do something more exciting than shifting weight in place, and to avoid traffic jams. Unfortunately, I don't see many people using it in their dance (diagonals are the key navigation tool taught in ballroom, in travelling dances). Of course using this to pass presupposes that room exists for a second lane of dance. Tango For Her wrote: ( New leaders, save these!!! ) Nice! Here's another: Back when I was just past being a newbie, but still could only do the basic few patterns and only in one direction, I got some helpful advice. There was an extra teacher hanging out in the room, helping here and there. :o) This move really gave me some freedom (it's a front ocho to my right side): I am on my right foot. My follower is on her left foot. We are facing each other. I pivot her so that her toes are pointing to my right side. I lead her to take a front step. I pivot her so that her toes are in line to step back in front of me. Yes, I am leading a front ocho. She steps back in front of me. I pivot her so that her toes are pointing back at me, again. Done! You can also teach the leader to step back while she is stepping forward, then, step in place while she completes the front ocho. YES, new leaders are going to chicken-wing the hell out of that move. YES, they are going to lead it with their arms rather than their body. But, at least, they have the freedom to do a cool move without going anywhere! Hmmm, I could have written that better. Was that visual enough? -- Carol Ruth Shepherd Arborlaw PLC Ann Arbor MI USA 734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f http://arborlaw.com ventures • alliances • mergers • acquisitions ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Help Newbies Dance in Tight Spaces
Tango For Her wrote: It just seems that the two discussions, “walk, walk, walk” and “the basic-8” are just spending a lot of time just defending or breaking down these teaching styles. Those teacing methods already exist and new leaders still have nightmares when they get out to the milongas. Because what you have to learn is navigation and improvisation, and whether you teach using the 8CB as a coat hanger or by teaching to walk doesn't change a thing about that. Actually, the first step in teaching people not to march on regardless of anything is to teach them to listen to the music - and to act on it, rather than their own impulse to always move on. After all, tango music ain't a military march for a reason. Some music obviously lends itself to teaching this aspect of the dance better than other. I think it's a disservice to beginners to insist on *only* playing instrumental music with a very clear beat and no long arching phrases, certainly if you want to make thgem aware of the fact tango is slightly more rich than a fat Nubian slave beating the drums on a Roman trireme. And you have to teach them to fill the stepless time and be aware of what is happening (it's a fallacy to think that if you don't step nothing happens, but it's not *obviously* wrong to beginners). They'll be more patient on a crowded dance floor if they're having fun in place than if they're just constantly itching to move on when they have nowhere to go. -- Alexis Cousein [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- If I have seen further, it is by standing on reference manuals ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Some get it, some don't.
IMO, if, over time, a beginner doesn't develop a love and feel for classic argentine tango music and in addition can't find the beat, no matter how many months of classes he/she attends or how many different (if available) teachers are used, then I believe it's a lost cause. What does a teacher do in this case? Some people are dancers and some are not...some hear music and some don't. We don't have control over that, but some people take a long time to get it so you can't always predict how they might turn out. If someone really wants to continue, you should encourage them, they could be late bloomers, and even be very good eventually. ...or...you could try deconstructing some basic elements of steps that they already know and create repetitive exercises that they could do with music to help them and then reconstruct the steps after they have developed some sense of rhythm from the exercise...in other words try to trick them into doing the step, sort of like Mr. Miyagi's approach to karate...wax on, wax off. But hey, I have watched dancers here in NYC for ten years and some still don't get it, and they are still out at the milongas. They may be dancing just for the fun of it. If they don't want to give up, keep teaching them. They are paying the bills, after all. You can't save the world. Cheers, Charles ** The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. Go to AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp0030002565) ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] beginners and milonga
Charles Theoretically, it sounds fun to start that way, but pedagogically speaking it is a little like putting the cart before the horse. /Charles Having taught dance for over 10 years now, I find that pedagogy often dictates that fun precede deep study. Nothing wrong with coasting around in the cart before you learn to ride the horse. Also, I think that because of the step-on-every-beat aspect of Milonga (ignoring traspie) I found Milonga far far easier to led as a beginner. I always knew what foot my follow was on, even if I was messing up the lead badly and even if I was failing to lead anything. I could have fun without the fear and trepidation that paralized me when I tried to dance tango. One less thing to worry about and to screw up. doug ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Help Newbies Dance in Tight Spaces
Help Newbies Dance in Tight Spaces When I was a beginner, my first milonga was on a very small, very crowded floor. No room to move. DisasterVille! Later, as a more advanced dancer, I had a few interesting private lessons. 1. I had a private lesson with a partner. It was in a 10x8 space. The teacher walked in front of us and his partner walked behind us. He changed his pace, dancing in place, dancing slowly, moving in a burst, etc. In BsAs, he said, if you leave a gap between you and me, someone will enter the dance floor in front of you. So, I want you to keep the same tight distance behind me. It was quite an eye-opener. 2. I had a private lesson dancing with my teacher in a 10x12 room. We could only go around the room once or twice for the entire song. That, too, was quite an eye-opener. 3. Another lesson was for training to perform. I was instructed to dance in phrases, small, tight moves followed by long sweeping moves. Again, I became aware of dancing at different speeds. Now, of course, I know how to dance in place when there is no place to go. Sometimes, I even, purposely, dance behind the slowest leader in the room just for the practice. Heres my quandary: Why all this talk of walk, walk, walk for beginners? Why all this talk of the pieces of the basic-8? (Those are rhetorical questions.) Why not have a week-long discussion on the problem at hand: *** Beginners have trouble in tight spaces. *** I posted an example on , Tue, 12 Feb 2008 09:18:53 EST, Breaking the paso basico with simple movements I know that that exercise worked wonders. It allowed beginners to move in tight spaces. There must be all kinds of teaching examples that you can come up with. It just seems that the two discussions, walk, walk, walk and the basic-8 are just spending a lot of time just defending or breaking down these teaching styles. Those teacing methods already exist and new leaders still have nightmares when they get out to the milongas. So? I know you all must have some great teaching examples for solving this problem. Lets hear them! Again, I am saying nothing positive or negative about walking and basic-8 exercises. I just think it would be interesting reading, for all of us out here, to hear what other gems you have for helping the newbies! Thanks ahead of time! Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Osvaldo Centeno -- his exhibition in El Beso during Encuentro Tango Milonguero
Original Message From: Janis Kenyon [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... Osvaldo was overwhelmed by the response to his dancing on Monday night in El Beso. He has never done an exhibition because he dances for himself, not an audience. That explains it to some extent. He did not look to be in a mood to dance at all. He looked busy, tired, working hard. I mean the dance was good, but the impression was that something was wrong. Plus he left Ana Maria in the middle of the floor, both times, returning to his table quickly and leaving Ana Maria to go to her table by herself. Not a very good example for many of us attending Milongueando 2008. The high point for me was the dance of the elderly couple toward the end of the demo set who danced several dances including a milonga. I think they danced to El Acomodo which was absolutely fabulous. I wish I could remember their names. Perhaps Janis would know. === seek, appreciate, and create beauty this life is not a rehearsal === ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Osvaldo Centeno -- his exhibition in El Beso during Encuentro Tango Milonguero
Original Message From: Janis Kenyon [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... Osvaldo was overwhelmed by the response to his dancing on Monday night in El Beso. He has never done an exhibition because he dances for himself, not an audience. That explains it to some extent. He did not look to be in a mood to dance at all. He looked busy, tired, working hard. I mean the dance was good, but the impression was that something was wrong. Plus he left Ana Maria in the middle of the floor, both times, returning to his table quickly and leaving Ana Maria to go to her table by herself. Not a very good example for many of us attending Milongueando 2008. The high point for me was the dance of the elderly couple toward the end of the demo set who danced several dances including a milonga. I think they danced to El Acomodo which was absolutely fabulous. I wish I could remember their names. Perhaps Janis would know. === seek, appreciate, and create beauty this life is not a rehearsal === ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
