Re: [Tango-L] Weight of words
--- Floyd Baker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I spent nearly ten years in a Tango wasteland studying what was behind it all... Without (for the most part) being able to dance it myself. But that did not stop the understand of it. I concentrated on the origins and concepts. How and why it came about. I bought and watched current and historical movies.., read books, listened to the music, bought instructional videos, went to workshops, kept in touch with Mataj and others all during my non-dancing era. --- I wonder, if one were to substitute "Martial Arts" for "tango" in the above paragraph, whether the writer would feel qualified to teach martial arts. If he did, and Chuck Noris criticized his teaching, do you suppose the writer would challenge him to a sparring match? Anyone may sign up for and post any B.S. they want to this list. But the tango world is tiny. There is at most one degree of separation between any of us who post regularly. It is easy to get background info on any of us. I urge those of you reading who are new to the community and don't know the writers in person to talk to someone who has danced with the author before you buy a bunch of B.S. in a well crafted package. I was shocked and saddened by TangoforHer's endorsement of Floyd over Keith Elshaw. If there are any others out there who don't know Keith Elshaw's qualifications, I offer this endorsement: If Keith ever disagrees with me on any aspect of tango, you may safely assume that he is right and I am wrong. I've often said that there are no experts on this list. But Keith is probably closer to that than the rest of us. Sean PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburghs most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Speak up if you are uncomfortable - policies
btw - my monthly milonga is, right now, the only one that is free and open to the public.. I'm just sayin' :) barbra Have you joined the Buffalo Argentine Tango Society Yahoo! group yet? It's easy, and the best way to make sure you know what we're doing and what's going on with the Argentine tango in and around Buffalo..go to www.yahoo.com > select Groups > search for Buffalo Argentine Tango Society > follow the directions to join BATS_tango. Thanks! ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Caveat emptor: Nigerian scammers
Heads up to anyone looking online for apartments in Buenos Aires. The Nigerian scammers have even invaded that area of online commerce. My wife is looking for one and a Craigslist ad she responded to turned out to be one of these scams. It was reasonably easy to recognize, but if you don't have your skeptic hat on, you might not realize it until it is too late. Just a warning...caveat emptor. Here is a link to one of many sites that have information on how to recognize and avoid these kinds of frauds: http://www.fraudaid.com/ScamSpeak/Nigerian/index.htm Skip A. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Speak up if you are uncomfortable - policies
Now here's something we can agree on Chris... I started holding Tango dances in mid summer 05. Buffalo was a tango wasteland prior to that. Within a year we brought about many workshops with imported instructors, and a couple of fairly major productions. Not to mention the weekly dances. A few Tangueros came out of the woodwork for that first dance and gave the incentive to carry on. The crowd continued to grow very nicely and we soon topped fifty at a dance... In July of 06 we held our first, 3 day weekend Tango Festival. I had considered forming a 'non profit' club at one time but really could not see the need for it... This isn't a business... It's people enjoying something they love doing. Then a 'people organizing' tanguera started doing her thing... Taking the people to a lot of ballroom venues, sporatic venues.., weird venues. The crowd became tired and unfocused. The crowd stopped growing at the weekly milonga. I became discouraged and stopped holding them... To be clear, we weren't supporting the place any more so it closed on our night for a couple of months. When it reopened in the fall, he didn't care if we came back, and neither did I. Now there is a government recognized non profit club here, run by the people organizer..., that many belong to. And they've buried themselves in a yahoo casket. The leader rules the roost. Sells T-shirts, charges for previously free dances, has worked her way into a art based political position, possibily from her 'organizational skills' and contacts.., and there is very little social Tango dancing going on. Tango should be free... Floyd On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 02:07 +0100 (BST), you wrote: >> Actually, Chris, there are quite a number of nonprofits with elected >> officials (presidents, vice-presidents, secretaries, treasurers) who >> are all community leaders. Their memberships have elected them to >> handle the affairs of the club. > >Um, that's not a community - it what comes from /lack/ of community. > >Real tango communities don't have so-called community leaders, and it >follows that so-called community leaders don't have real tango >communities... > >...hence their need to form clubs, hold elections and bestow >important-sounding titles upon one another. You can tell a real tango >dance community by the fact people would rather dance. ;) Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango * * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * * * ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] people who can and can't
On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 08:30:15 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: >Can we get Igor Polk back posting on Tango-L? > How about if he promises not to repeat his infraction(s)? > Could we take a vote on it? Would that influence the moderator(s) > to re-consider his bann? > His off-list emails have been sincere and would have been > good Tango L fodder, in my own opinion. > Thanks for considering this request in his behalf...I didn't ask him > if I could do this..I just thought that I'd give it a shot since the > topic popped up on-list. I'd like to second that... Igor is the only person on the L who had a 'real' problem with my online lessons when I first mentioned them here a year ago... Some others just didn't like that I seemed to be anti-ballroom. I'm not of course.., but I think they were taking it personally because I'm against using ballroom *methods* to teach Tango. :-/ Igor had a complaint on my use of the term 'heavy lead'.I was talking about the heavy 'physical' push and pull that many instructors teach and many leaders do to their partners. It was a reasonable, although somewhat belabored , complaint.I did understand what he was saying. Which was in fact that to him a 'heavy lead' meant the use of emphasis in the giving of true Tango leads. Simultaneous leads and the energy imparted to them. So I made the necessary clarification to the online lessons. It's good to get *constructive* criticism you know? :-) Floyd Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango * * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * * * ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Weight of words
Keith... Last week my reponse went only to you. A failing I have, not sending to 'all'. This one I will be careful to do right. You said a lot of things privately about 'the great unwashed'.. Being 'protective' of them and all. How did come to be their guardian? To keep them from hearing ideas other than yours? I know if I were a newbie coming to Tango L, I would not like knowing there were a small group of people, and I emphasize the word small, who were trying to keep them from hearing all sides of a Tango issue. That some people would eliminate their competition... To excommunicate them from 'their church' so to speak? What *should* happen is for people to explain what exactly is wrong with anything I've said., instead of just accusing me of being wrong in general. I'm against teaching patterns to followers, not physically forcing ladies into position, keeping Tango improv and to not mechanize it. I gave you one person by name, whom I'm sure you know, who teaches leaders to get their right fingers behind the ladies left shoulder blade and pull, when she's to be brought around to his right. That's disgusting. Is that what you support? People learning to 'fake' Tango. To look like they're doing it but not understanding a single thing on how to dance it..? You and I started about the same time in the Tango resurgence. I tried then to grow Tango in WNY by bringing in Thomas and Heidi.., Mataj and Nina and then Mataj and Robinn from Ithaca. A small group formed but basically it was too early for Tango in Buffalo. Scoliosis then took my wife out of the picture. So while you and others were perfecting your 'smooth' dancing.., I spent nearly ten years in a Tango wasteland studying what was behind it all... Without (for the most part) being able to dance it myself. But that did not stop the understand of it. I concentrated on the origins and concepts. How and why it came about. I bought and watched current and historical movies.., read books, listened to the music, bought instructional videos, went to workshops, kept in touch with Mataj and others all during my non-dancing era. My last video from Mataj was a stage show with him and Rina, Facudo and Kelly, et al. in 2001. All this time and since I have been working to tie off loose ends left by various instructors. I found that many had been trying to 'fool' me. :-/ I called it 'learning Tango from the inside out'. So while you think smooth is the answer.., I think 'understanding' is more so. Those who don't like what I say, need to point out exactly what it is they don't like. I would welcome that. Please do. Put your expertise into words as I've done. Stop the smoke of childish one liners, name calling like stupid and idiot. *That* should get *you* banned from the list, eh? It would do Tango and the L a lot more good.. Just tell me and others what you think is wrong.Perhaps you're upset because I'm not 'humble' enough? :-) That I don't say that everyone else is right too?Cause they're just not, you know? Some teach patterns to followers.., don't they? How can that be right? Tell me. Anyone is welcome to contradict what I say. But don't try pointing to early-on videos as proof of imcompetance? Ha! Those done at the very beginning of Tango here in WNY that I'm in fact very proud of... Those that were done with students of mine at 2, 5, and 9 months experience.., on their first time alone in the middle of a big floor with 400 people watching them. We were not trying to 'connect' with each other.., I can assure you. One follower's lips were quivering. But we did do what we wanted to do. To demo some slow show Tango to the 'great unwashed' I guess you call them. We were happy to get through it, and very well too, I must say. Happy to leave the hot stuff to Daniel Trenner and Anne Sophie Vile later that night.. So here are the videos referred to. At Five Months. http://www.buffalotango.com/html/video_-_knox_1.html Two vids of Karen and I. At Nine Months. http://www.buffalotango.com/html/video_-_knox_2.html Two vids of Karen and I. One vid of Sarah and I. I do admit to being dragged out by that third demo... I was running the whole event too... But do notice that the ladies knew exactly where and when to touch their feet down, all by themselves.Without the need for a ballrom 'frame' either. They just 'followed' my leads. So please say more than 'you know what's best for everyone'. Stop trying to censor other people's opinions. Stop calling 4th grade names. Stop the one liners. Grow up. Tango on Floyd Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango * * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * * * ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Are they really Tango Gods?.. or could it be me?
Alex wrote: >> In the cultural sense, individual N. >> Americans are more likely to be relatively conflict averse. > > Yes, but not actually in the same *way* that someone from BsAs. > would be. For one thing, *they're much less afraid of losing > face, which fosters a more direct method of communication > (in which you don't pussyfoot around in a conversation). Which ones are *"they" in this statement, the portenos or the Americans? (it has not been my experience that either ones are like that) ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Weight of words
I honestly have resisted being part of these particular threads - but I really do want anyone and everyone passing even reasonably near Buffalo to come dance with us. I generally have about 30 folks at my regular monthly milonga - and we're not too "gender imbalanced" :). When I have visiting instructors, I usually "sell" something like 50-55 sessions (includes repeaters who are taking more than 1 workshop), and I usually, not always, fill as many privates as we can schedule. I've had almost 60 people for two special "gala" milongas/dinner dances. I have even been able to get some tv coverage for some of our events and a feature in a local glossy magazine is being done. I am also happy to say that, through our events, we have raised money to repair a public art installation named, appropriately enough, the Tango Dancers. We have people aged early 20s to 80s - with varying degrees of experience and different backgrounds - salsa, ballroom, swing and, of course, our tango purists :). I am actually proud of the fact that, with very, very little exception, everyone dances with everyone and I especially love the care that most of our leaders, and followers, take to make sure any "newbies" get a chance to dance - even if it's just a walk around the floor. There is a young man who does a monthly Saturday night milonga, and he also gets a lot of folks - they tend to be the younger dancers, but not exclusively. He is more traditional in his play-list, etc. which is great. He does a lot of demonstrations in the community which helps bring folks in - esp. people from the local salsa crowd and the University. As my monthly weeknight dance tends to serve as an "entry point' for folks who may not have much, if any, dance experience - I tend to play a little more alternative tango and I throw in some latin and swing - which a lot of folks like - I know there may be a lot of folks who would "disapprove," but almost everyone gets on the floor for these "breaks" - so I must be doing something right :). If any one finds themselves anywhere near Buffalo - let me know, I'll try to find you places to dance, to stay and to make new friends. :) Barbra Have you joined the Buffalo Argentine Tango Society Yahoo! group yet? It's easy, and the best way to make sure you know what we're doing and what's going on with the Argentine tango in and around Buffalo..go to www.yahoo.com > select Groups > search for Buffalo Argentine Tango Society > follow the directions to join BATS_tango. Thanks! -Original Message- From: Michael Figart II <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: tango-l@mit.edu Sent: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 7:40 pm Subject: [Tango-L] Weight of words Keith Elshaw wrote;
[Tango-L] Maria Nieves Rego -- illustrious citizen of Buenos Aires
This afternoon, at a ceremony in the Salon Dorado of the city legislature, Maria Nieves Rego was honored as an illustrious citizen of Buenos Aires. We viewed a video of Maria dancing on stage with Juan Carlos Copes to Quejas de Bandoneon. In her remarks, Maria said she was born to dance and expressed her gratitude to Juan Carlos Copes, her partner of 40 years. She danced a tango with several milongueros whom she summoned from the audience including Julio Duplaa and Armando Giacovelli. Maria began dancing at the age of 14 and didn't hesitate to mention that she is 73. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] gender imbalance
Or, "I can't find anything to wear in your closet". At 07:20 PM 4/28/2008, NANCY wrote: >Ah yes! The 'I have nothing to wear' closet. > >N > > > > >Be a better friend, newshound, and >know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it >now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ >___ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L@mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] gender imbalance
--- On Mon, 4/28/08, Nina Pesochinsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > And, (would you believe ?!), it is possible to walk into a > milonga in > BsAs, full of people, some very good dancers, and say > "There is > nobody here to dance with!". Ah yes! The 'I have nothing to wear' closet. N Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] gender imbalance
I forgot to mention something that was the reason that I wrote the post in the first place - any one dancer, a man or a woman, needs only one other dancer at any moment that he/she would like to dance. It is ot a requirement that all other people in the room are dancin. So gender balance/imbalance is irrelevant. It is not how many are there that is important, but rather who is there. If a woman wants to dance with a particular man, and he is busy dancing with someone else, he is not available and it is irrelevant whether there are other men and that there may be gender balance. That particular man is not available for that particular tanda. Instead dancing with whomever, and spend the precious music while thinking "I wish I was dancing with the other one", it might be better to sit. And, (would you believe ?!), it is possible to walk into a milonga in BsAs, full of people, some very good dancers, and say "There is nobody here to dance with!". Nina ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] gender imbalance
David, Sad, sad... this is very sad. :) You dance with people because of their level of dance?! beginner or advanced?! And what if they have bad breath, look desperate, and have nothing intresting to say? What if you say "axis" to a woman, and she smiles and says "yes, of course", but is thinking "this guy is crazy, I have no idea what he is talking about"? The sad part is when people dance with people only because of what they perceive the other person's dancing level to be. Once, in ancient times, I danced with a man who, as I recall, may not have been a great dancer (but I can't be sure). While we danced, he was telling me hillarious jokes in my ear. I was hurting from laughter. I laughted at those jokes for years. You can teach someone to find his/her axis (and even someone else's :), and whatever else, but you cannot teach them to be witty and entertaining. On a serious note, dancers hold real power to mold other dancers. A man who is a fabulous dancer, can teach a woman, any woman, almost any basic technical element non-verbally, while simply dancing with her. But why would we do that? Social duty? Not at all. Instead, more from a recognition that people are much more than their dancing abilities, and that it may be a mistake to dance with a proficiency level instead of a person. Best, Nina At 05:59 PM 4/28/2008, David Thorn wrote: >Although I am a lead, I contribute negatively to the gender >imbalance situation. I am an adequately decent dancer, perhaps one >of those terminal intermediates who "prey" on the beginners. I >dance with beginning and with advanced follows. I almost never >dance with the intermediate follows. > >When a beginner is dangling off my neck, pulling me over, clamping >my arm or jumping from foot to foot and generally making my dance >unpleasant, I will politely ask ask her to manage her own axis, or >to wait, or whatever, and explain that I have a bad rotator cuff, or >whatever. Thinking that I am a good dancer, she will say OK, do so, >and then the dance is fine. > >The local follows who are advanced know that I am a good, but >certainly not excellent, dancer. However I am good enough that I >can give them a decent dance and they will have a good time. They >can also manage their axis, they wait, don't clamp my arm, etc, and >no requests are required. They say yes to my dance invitations and >we have a fine dance. > >But the intermediate follows, which means most of them, or at least >very many, often can not manage their axis, and or don't wait for a >lead, and/or But, since they know that I am only an >intermediate myself, are quite offended if I make any requests, even >regarding my damaged rotator cuff. They KNOW that they are not >clamping my arm. I have simply quit asking them to dance. > >Probably slightly passive aggressive, but it does avoid conflict, I >can have an excellent evening of dance, and I only feel slightly bad >about all those sad intermediate follows lined up against the wall >looking hopefully out at the floor. > >Cheers > >D. David Thorn > >_ >Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill meets World Series. >Get in the game. >http://club.live.com/word_slugger.aspx?icid=word_slugger_wlhm_admod_april08 >___ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L@mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] gender imbalance
Although I am a lead, I contribute negatively to the gender imbalance situation. I am an adequately decent dancer, perhaps one of those terminal intermediates who "prey" on the beginners. I dance with beginning and with advanced follows. I almost never dance with the intermediate follows. When a beginner is dangling off my neck, pulling me over, clamping my arm or jumping from foot to foot and generally making my dance unpleasant, I will politely ask ask her to manage her own axis, or to wait, or whatever, and explain that I have a bad rotator cuff, or whatever. Thinking that I am a good dancer, she will say OK, do so, and then the dance is fine. The local follows who are advanced know that I am a good, but certainly not excellent, dancer. However I am good enough that I can give them a decent dance and they will have a good time. They can also manage their axis, they wait, don't clamp my arm, etc, and no requests are required. They say yes to my dance invitations and we have a fine dance. But the intermediate follows, which means most of them, or at least very many, often can not manage their axis, and or don't wait for a lead, and/or But, since they know that I am only an intermediate myself, are quite offended if I make any requests, even regarding my damaged rotator cuff. They KNOW that they are not clamping my arm. I have simply quit asking them to dance. Probably slightly passive aggressive, but it does avoid conflict, I can have an excellent evening of dance, and I only feel slightly bad about all those sad intermediate follows lined up against the wall looking hopefully out at the floor. Cheers D. David Thorn _ Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill meets World Series. Get in the game. http://club.live.com/word_slugger.aspx?icid=word_slugger_wlhm_admod_april08 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Weight of words
Keith Elshaw wrote;
Re: [Tango-L] Community building
Stephen wrote: <<>> We have had this same problem in NYC for many years but in spite of the diluted scene, the tango community has grown to fill in the spaces somewhat. We now have many milongas every week and new workshops on almost a weekly basis and some for extended stays...but we also ahve a very large community. We also attract a lot of good people and many Argentines pass through here and live here. Even in the beginning days when the milonga of Danel and Maria was the only dance in town, there was a community of older expat Argentines here who would show up every week. But I would caution that NYC is not your typical city in this regard. There are still new venues that open here, and just as many soon close. However one venue is consistent with other cities...the restaurant that has a slow night (or has low attendance in general) that expects to bring in a tango crowd to bolster its business. After an initial rush they usually close. A few have survived but as Stephen said, tango dancers do not spend money on food and liquor and often the restaurant will drop the tango night, especially if business picks up. One or two have survived here, notably Lafayette Grill which also has tango now on other nights (but it is an exception), but the floor is a little small and the level of dancing is mixed. Others hang in but usually with a small crowd. I have personally seen maybe twenty "restaurant milongas" come and go. Most of the people who run the milongas have resigned themselves to making only a certain amount of money and no more...no one makes a big profit. Most of the people who run the milongas have other income or are involved in other milongas and workshops. As Danel once said to me: Nobody got rich from tango, except Francisco Canaro. Cheers, Charles ** Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp0030002851) ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] how to lead (was 'weight change')
Oleh Kovalchuke wrote: >>> My "frame" is always "locked" -- I dance in close embrace. >>> >> B (close embrace) does not imply A (the frame is locked). > > While it might be true statement in the way you perceive close embrace > dancing, I was writing from experience about my own dancing style > (that is why I used that adjective in the sentence). My embrace begins > at chest level, it is always locked (with good followers). I suspect we're in violent agreement but for the definition of "locked" (which I don't take to just mean "joined"). So I'll let the matter rest. -- Alexis Cousein [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Community building
Hi Ron: Oops! I should have mentioned Ron rather than Joe in my previous post about community building. I was writing in response to Ron's and Sean's posts about community building. Let me clarify a few points: What Ron described is happening in many U.S. cities--the seeming proliferation of tango activities without a comensurate growth in community size, with the consequence smaller and smaller attendance at any given event. Milongas are actually among the easiest of these activities to organize and often the first to become what some might regard as too plentiful. In a city like Dallas, where the new things are always considered attractive, milongas in stable venues quite often take a back seat to new milongas in what are likely to prove unstable venues--restaurants. Restaurants that have a dance floor and sound system but are lacking customers will quite often accomodate what promises to be a large crowd for for dinner and dancing. The large turnout indicates a success to the organizer. The feeling of success lasts until the restaurant goes out of business or finds out that tango dancers don't drink or eat very much. (One or the other always happens. No successful restaurant will continue to accomodate a group that eat and drinks so little.) In the meantime, the established milongas in venues that have been stable (because the owners/organizers know what to expect from milongas) suffer from poor attendance and are in danger of being discontinued for lack of income. Similar occurrences arise with workshops. In the mid- to late 1990s, people in Texas would check with organizers in other Texas cities to make sure they weren't organizing a workshops too close together in time in the three cities that then had active tango communities--Austin, Dallas and Houston. By 2001, however, newly emerging organizers in Dallas didn't even bother to consider schedules in their own city before scheduling workshops. In a community that was then less than 100 active dancers, we saw three workshops shoehorned into a six-week period with the new organizer jumping into the middle of two already scheduled workshops. A little bit later the same year, we saw two workshops on the same weekend, with the new organizer saying that if she had to consider existing events that she would be excluded from organizing. Needless to say, all of these workshops suffered from diminished attendance. After these scheduling conflicts, those of us that had long-standing records of organizing workshops quit doing so. We weren't really making money on these workshops in the first place and didn't want to take losses for the inability to meet minimums. I'm not justifying these market forces. I'm just saying that the dynamics in a community change as it grows and makes a transition to market determined outcomes. Unless one wants to make a living at tango--something that I decided didn't suit me--what remains for founding organizers is to accept or lament the changes for what they are or aren't. I'm doing a little of both, but I'm leaning toward acceptance rather than lament. With best regards, Steve ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] how to lead (was 'weight change')
> > My "frame" is always "locked" -- I dance in close embrace. > > > > B (close embrace) does not imply A (the frame is locked). While it might be true statement in the way you perceive close embrace dancing, I was writing from experience about my own dancing style (that is why I used that adjective in the sentence). My embrace begins at chest level, it is always locked (with good followers). Apparently your style is different, and it's OK. > If (or I should say when) the frame is really locked, it is impossible > for you to do a weight change and for your partner to do none... etc. I do it all the time, when I do the cross, and the follower doesn't. Thousands of dancers are doing that as well. If I were to see your video, I might be able to point out to you, when you are doing this. -- Oleh Kovalchuke, not surprised Argentine Tango : Connection, Balance, Rhythm http://tangospring.com On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 12:23 PM, Alexis Cousein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Oleh Kovalchuke wrote: > > Alexis Cousein wrote: > > > > > > > Nobody is claiming that you necessarily lead a weight shift of the > > > follower through your own weight shift, except when the frame is locked > > > (i.e. when your axis and hers are moving in unison). > > > > > > > My "frame" is always "locked" -- I dance in close embrace. > > > > B (close embrace) does not imply A (the frame is locked). > > If (or I should say when) the frame is really locked, it is impossible > for you to do a weight change and for your partner to do none; > by definition: a weight change means moving your centre of gravity > relative to your support points, and if the frame is locked, by > definition you can't have one person doing it and the other not. > > Even in close embrace (and fully apilado), you'd be surprised at the > number of degrees of freedom there still are. Well, actually, you > wouldn't, given that you seem to be able to shift your weight without > shifting that of your partner. > > > > > -- > Alexis Cousein [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics > -- > > > ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Tango Gods or Mortals in BsAs
Oh Mario, it is not that the women change, it is that the men, the milongas, the ambiance in BsAs are different! It begins when I walk in the door of the milonga and am greeted with a kiss by the organizor who says, "Such a long time, I have been thinking it was time to see you again". Then the waiter, remembering my preference from a year ago, escorts me to my favorite table. The DJ nods to me from his booth and makes a mental note that the blonde woman loves tango valzes and he will play an extra one or two in a tanda if he sees me on the floor. And the women nearby rise to greet me with a kiss when I sit down. So you see, before I ever step out on the floor, I feel valued and cared for and appreciated. Then the dancing with the lovely custom of the cabeceo so that I never am put in the awkward position of having to decline a dance with someone or dance when I am too tired or hot. Once a partner is selected, he greets me with a kiss and some lovely complimentary words which immediately make me feel adored and beautiful. He remembers me, my name, where I am from, asks how long I will stay. (And on my last day he will make an effort to come to the milonga "for our last dance" because he remembers my departure day. Then we dance. WE do not discuss weight changes or heel leads or style or what is best an open or close embrace. I cannot imagine EVER talking about dancing with any of these men except to comment on the music or the floor or the weather ( between tandas). And they never criticize - they are always encouraging and complimentary and express gratitude and amazement when I am able to follow something tricky and they show off for their friends and tell them how well I dance, too. If, at the end of the tanda, I do what my mama always taught me and say, "thank you", they are likely to reply "It is I who should thank you for the honor of letting me dance with such a divine, elegant, yadda yadda woman." And perhaps, Mario, I am a different woman in Buenos Aires but who has the magic wand? Nancy --- On Mon, 4/28/08, Mario <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: Mario <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [Tango-L] Are they really Tango Gods?.. or could it be me? > To: tango-l@mit.edu > Date: Monday, April 28, 2008, 12:25 PM > "I know many women who have found that special feeling > in tango when dancing in the milongas with Argentine men. > It’s a feeling of security and being protected while > losing oneself in the music. We can forget all our troubles > and be present in the moment. No other dance has the feeling > of tango." >- from Tango Chamuyo (Blog) > http://jantango.wordpress.com/ > > I've heard this same song from so many women that > I'm beginning to wonder what's up? >I'm beginning to think it must be like; since they > are not in their usual environment >where they're own cultural buttons are easily pushed > and where they are under >the very scrutinizing eyes of > all their peers and those with whom they compete, gossip > >about, etc. etc things are naturally more > relaxing...and so, they loosen up themselves >and quit > being so on-guard all the time...this theory goes for the > guys who come back >from BsAs raving about the portenia > women, too... > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Are they really Tango Gods?.. or could it be me?
Off topic, off list. Look, I'm not thin skinned, and I'm not sensitive about criticism of my country. There's plenty to criticize; I'll be first, but again over beers, not in email, which never is a good forum for solving problems. I'm just surprised at your stereotypes. Working for a go-getter US high-tech company might not present you with many "typical" americans. I'm imagining the CEO of my last company storming into your office... but I digress. Speaking of stereotype, are you saying that N. Americans (Canadians too?) are aggressive, while Argentines are conflict averse? On Apr 28, 2008, at 12:41 PM, Alexis Cousein wrote: > Tom Stermitz wrote: >> You've been watching too much US television and too many of our >> Conservative politicians. > > Uhm - I happen to work for a US based company, you know. I *am* > familiar with more than the stereotypes. > >> In the cultural sense, individual N. >> Americans are more likely to be relatively conflict averse. > > Yes, but not actually in the same *way* that someone from BsAs. > would be. For one thing, they're much less afraid of losing > face, which fosters a more direct method of communication > (in which you don't pussyfoot around in a conversation). ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] gender imbalance
Astrid wrote: > If the woman dares to let it be known she is not 100% > satisfied and deeply impressed with his dancing skills, the usual > pattern is that the man will go find someone more easily impressed and > gloat in front of the one who dared to think otherwise. Well, they're in dire need of an attitude change if they want to improve - but who will teach them? Certainly not the more easily impressed followers. I know there are bound to be some incorrigible ones that aren't the Right Stuff, but if there are too many men with that attitude, some of them probably don't know any better and just mimic their peer leaders (and will do so until someone manage to change that attitude little by little). I also happen to think it all depends on exactly how a woman dares to let it be known she is not 100% satisfied. Porteñas have a knack at making you understand without telling you. Hitting someone else with The Cluebat, sadly, is usually not something that works, especially not when egos can be bruised easily. It doesn't even work with me (except when someone *hands* me the cluebat, after which I can retreat and hit myself with it in private ;) ). -- Alexis Cousein [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Unreasonable, illogical Tango? ..and the Tango nerds?
'4. The essence of TangoZen is; ..." that there is something beyond logic and reasoning in Tango.'' - From the new TangoZen blog This is one hell of a good point..it is where my focus isit is where all revolution lay. If this blog can deliver on it's point #4...then, I'm reading it always! - Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Are they really Tango Gods?.. or could it be me?
Tom Stermitz wrote: > You've been watching too much US television and too many of our > Conservative politicians. Uhm - I happen to work for a US based company, you know. I *am* familiar with more than the stereotypes. > In the cultural sense, individual N. > Americans are more likely to be relatively conflict averse. Yes, but not actually in the same *way* that someone from BsAs. would be. For one thing, they're much less afraid of losing face, which fosters a more direct method of communication (in which you don't pussyfoot around in a conversation). I'm not judging anyone - just pointing out that it's natural for someone to travel to somewhere else to be surprised at how culture may influence patterns of behaviour and ways of dancing - and to enjoy some of the differences. It's not just *they* that cast away their inhibitions; there really *is* something different in the air. The grass is indeed a different kind of green on the other side. > Anyway, you will find that on the individual level, people are pretty > warm and friendly, no matter what the culture. Of course (though you'd hardly guess from reading tango-l, which seems to regularly illustrate Poe's Law very well -- but of course, people are rarely the fire-breathing dragons they are online¹;) ). The way they dance around each other in the social dance, though, isn't exactly the same in all cultures (which explains the plural). -- ¹Except me, of course. Fourth man: "I am a gorilla." -- Alexis Cousein [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Dancing with Beginners
I think it is fairly common in tango communities to see some men and some women grab beginners to dance with them. In some cases, those doing the grabbing may be among the less popular dancers in their own group who are taking advantage of newcomers. In other cases, people are trying out the beginners to see whether they have the aptitude (a basic set of movement/music/balance skills) to make it worth investing the time. Those lacking the aptitude are quickly dropped. Newcomers may be preferred to those long-time members of the community who have long demonstrated a lack of compatibilty in dancingl. Without dancing with someone, it may be difficult to actually know how comfortable it is to dance with someone. You can only see how they look. With best regards, Steve ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] gender imbalance
> I've *taught* my dance partner that it's also her responsibility to > make me improve - by refusing to accept anything that doesn't feel > right and to *always* tell me when something doesn't feel right. > Yes, but that is your dance partner. The men who ask a woman to dance at a milonga do not usually want to be told anything. If the woman dares to let it be known she is not 100% satisfied and deeply impressed with his dancing skills, the usual pattern is that the man will go find someone more easily impressed and gloat in front of the one who dared to think otherwise. The ones who have a little more humility are the ones that have the stuff to become better dancers, because improving takes a certain amount of patience and receptivity. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] how to lead (was 'weight change')
Oleh Kovalchuke wrote: > Alexis Cousein wrote: > >> Nobody is claiming that you necessarily lead a weight shift of the >> follower through your own weight shift, except when the frame is locked >> (i.e. when your axis and hers are moving in unison). > > My "frame" is always "locked" -- I dance in close embrace. B (close embrace) does not imply A (the frame is locked). If (or I should say when) the frame is really locked, it is impossible for you to do a weight change and for your partner to do none; by definition: a weight change means moving your centre of gravity relative to your support points, and if the frame is locked, by definition you can't have one person doing it and the other not. Even in close embrace (and fully apilado), you'd be surprised at the number of degrees of freedom there still are. Well, actually, you wouldn't, given that you seem to be able to shift your weight without shifting that of your partner. -- Alexis Cousein [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] how to lead (was 'weight change')
On Apr 28, 2008, at 10:01 AM, Oleh Kovalchuke wrote: > In the way I dance tango, weight shifting per se is not a lead at all. > > I lead the follower by moving her body axis. > > As long as I don't move her axis, I can do all kind of steps with my > feet: shift weight, do grapevine, whatever, and my partner will not > step ... > > Your dance style might differ. And its OK. > -- > Oleh Kovalchuke > Argentine Tango : Connection, Balance, Rhythm > http://tangospring.com Oleh also points out that you can disassociate your legs from your body, which opens up a whole bunch of possibilities to prevent or ask for a weight change. Of course, there are multiple methods of causing her to change weight, from coarse to sublime: - leader changes weight - follower steps on the slow beat unless prevented - leader shifts axis - leader lifts shoulder (uggh!) - leader bends axis - leader settles hips - leader pushes hips out - leader rotates (spirals) - leader rotates (pivots) - leader lifts and set down follower with arm - leader uses tummy to lift and set down - leader uses hands to move follower The good leader uses multiple techniques at the same time, which can make the lead extremely subtle, yet extremely clear. Some of the above techniques could feel really bad if too large or in isolation, but as part of the whole gestalt of "weight change", they are all viable or useful depending on the situation. I think the only one I really don't use is the shoulder lift or the bending axis. In my tango I don't like an axis that buckles. Some tango dancers do use movement ideas from swing dancing, which includes a bending axis. FOOTFALLS As for the thought that a good follower or leader can always feel their partner's footsteps. An excellent dancer can soften the weight change and maintain a stable enough axis that their partner can't feel it. This is difficult at the highest levels, but good axis control and quality of weight change is a characteristic of all the great dancers I know. As for the footfall itself... that deserves a world of technique in itself. Tom Stermitz Denver Tango Festivals http://LaEternaMilonga.com Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] gender imbalance
Astrid wrote:
> It is our responsibility to make you
> guys improve, yes?
>
Well, if there aren't enough good leaders you can either foster
their growth or wait until they come creeping out of the woodwork.
Or you can move, of course ;).
I've *taught* my dance partner that it's also her responsibility to
make me improve - by refusing to accept anything that doesn't feel
right and to *always* tell me when something doesn't feel right.
I couldn't improve without her. It's our responsibility to make the
other {guy,girl} improve, yes.
--
Alexis Cousein [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics
--
___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] how to lead (was 'weight change')
Hi Oleh, and thanks for the video description I love it! ..and is that the weight change (you changing wt. while moving the follow) in seconds 45-46 of the video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_60K2dAvGc ..this definately adds to my appreciation/understanding of this important move. - Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Are they really Tango Gods?.. or could it be me?
> I don't think that's all there is. It is also undoubtedly true that > BsAs. has > had quite some time to develop an ethos of tango that different > cultures have > a hard time to develop or even embrace - certainly the ultra- > individualistic > and undoubtedly more abrasive USA (where in-your-face assertiveness > is seen > much more as a virtue). WTF? You've been watching too much US television and too many of our Conservative politicians. In the cultural sense, individual N. Americans are more likely to be relatively conflict averse. We have other negative stereotypes that I'm willing to admit to over beers. Too much pseudo-self-esteem, perhaps. Argentine culture has some common stereotypes as well. Across Latin America, they tell jokes about it, hell, even Argentines repeat these same jokes. Anyway, you will find that on the individual level, people are pretty warm and friendly, no matter what the culture. Tom Stermitz Denver Tango Festivals http://LaEternaMilonga.com Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] gender imbalance
Astrid, I didn't twist anything. You were the one that used the word "preying", which implied there was something wrong with what they were doing (dancing with beginners). BTW, you still haven't answered how you determined they are preying (are these beginners followers upset that people want to dance with them)? As for getting the men to improve, you are the one whining about it. Thus I suggested that you might consider doing something about it. I couldn't care less if they improve or not. These "mediocre" men have found others to dance with, and seem to be perfectly happy. It would appear, they don't see any value in doing what is needed to dance with you. IMO, if you keep doing what you've been doing, you're going to keep getting what you've got. David Astrid <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I'm curious how you determined that people who dance with beginners are > > "preying" on them? Is there something wrong with dancing with beginners? > > I don't know if this was your intent, but you come across as being upset > > that people are dancing with beginners. > > Whatever one writes on this list, there will always be somebody who finds a > way to twist your words. I never said that tehre is sometihng wrong with > dancing with beginners. I also wrote how happy I am when I happen to > discover a talented beginner among the men. Note: the accent is on > "talented", not on "beginner". > > > > Rather than simply blaming these men that you appear to have such disdain > > for, maybe you might consider what you could do differently so that they > > might prefer to dance with you. Maybe then, you could influence them to > > improve. > > Sure, blame it all on the women, David. It is our responsibility to make you > guys improve, yes? > > My whole point in what I wrote in the posting you are referring to was that > some of the perpetual intermediates among the men are using the easily > impressed beginners as an escape way from having to get better in order to > receive more respect from the advanced women. Rather than working on their > skills, they find the easy way out: do not get better, just find partners > who are even worse than you so that you can impress them with your > unchanging mediocrity. There will always be some new beginners who do not > know you yet... > > The really good dancers may offer suggestions (and usually only when I ask > for them), but they are very positive and encouraging (ie. they also give > compliments). > > Of course they do. Unless you try to patronise them. > > ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] how to lead (was 'weight change')
Alexis Cousein wrote: > Nobody is claiming that you necessarily lead a weight shift of the > follower through your own weight shift, except when the frame is locked > (i.e. when your axis and hers are moving in unison). My "frame" is always "locked" -- I dance in close embrace. That does not mean that, when I shift my weight, the follower will do so too. Unless I move her axis, of course. My feet, on the other hand, can be decoupled (dissociated, in the common dance instructor parlance) from my chest. Thus "my weight shifting isn't a lead at all". Moving her axis is. Hence the word "balance" in my signature. Leader can also do the opposite: keep the weight on one foot and move her around without shifting his weight from that foot (at 3'37" here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_60K2dAvGc ). Osvaldo Cartery does this all the time (I copied his step in this clip). -- Oleh Kovalchuke Argentine Tango : Connection, Balance, Rhythm http://tangospring.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] weight change
> The leader may be hopping and skipping all around, doing whatever > necessary to keep up with where he wants the leader and her feet to > be.., but the follower has her own job to do.., and it is not > dependent on her watching or feeling *everything* the leader is doing > in his job. Just the leads he intends to give, from where they must > be taken... The image that comes to mind is one of dancing with a gnome gone crazy... ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Are they really Tango Gods?.. or could it be me?
Mario wrote: > since they are not in their usual environment > where they're own cultural buttons are easily pushed I don't think that's all there is. It is also undoubtedly true that BsAs. has had quite some time to develop an ethos of tango that different cultures have a hard time to develop or even embrace - certainly the ultra-individualistic and undoubtedly more abrasive USA (where in-your-face assertiveness is seen much more as a virtue). -- Alexis Cousein [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] gender imbalance
> I'm curious how you determined that people who dance with beginners are > "preying" on them? Is there something wrong with dancing with beginners? > I don't know if this was your intent, but you come across as being upset > that people are dancing with beginners. Whatever one writes on this list, there will always be somebody who finds a way to twist your words. I never said that tehre is sometihng wrong with dancing with beginners. I also wrote how happy I am when I happen to discover a talented beginner among the men. Note: the accent is on "talented", not on "beginner". > > Rather than simply blaming these men that you appear to have such disdain > for, maybe you might consider what you could do differently so that they > might prefer to dance with you. Maybe then, you could influence them to > improve. Sure, blame it all on the women, David. It is our responsibility to make you guys improve, yes? My whole point in what I wrote in the posting you are referring to was that some of the perpetual intermediates among the men are using the easily impressed beginners as an escape way from having to get better in order to receive more respect from the advanced women. Rather than working on their skills, they find the easy way out: do not get better, just find partners who are even worse than you so that you can impress them with your unchanging mediocrity. There will always be some new beginners who do not know you yet... The really good dancers may offer suggestions (and usually only when I ask for them), but they are very positive and encouraging (ie. they also give compliments). Of course they do. Unless you try to patronise them. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] how to lead (was 'weight change')
Oleh Kovalchuke wrote: > In the way I dance tango, weight shifting per se is not a lead at all. *Your* weight shifting isn't. Nobody is claiming that you necessarily lead a weight shift of the follower through your own weight shift, except when the frame is locked (i.e. when your axis and hers are moving in unison). > > I lead the follower by moving her body axis. Which shifts *her* weight (by definition)- QED. -- Alexis Cousein [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Community building
Both Sean and Joe offer interesting perspectives on the inevitable transition a successful tango community must make. The domination of the founding organizer(s) gives way to market determined outcomes as a new generation of organizers and teachers organize new milongas, classes, practicas and workshops. In such a transition, the original organizers may suffer from a sense of shock that new organizers no longer make decisions out of a sense of what builds the community. Instead, the new organizers take a different approach: What is fun to do? What might be successful? The old community understandings of no two milongas on the same weekend give way to two milongas on the same night. The big halloween milonga becomes three smaller milongas, and the big New Year's milonga becomes four smaller milongas. Inevitably, geography and the development of stylistic and philosophical differences leads to some degree of splintering--even if there are no hard feelings. At that point, some of the founding organizers may look around and wonder why things look do different and why the new generation of organizers take what looks like a selfish perspective--rather than a community perspective. That is what a market place looks like. It's natural to be concerned when such changes take place. I remember in the mid-1990s when the Stanford Tango Week was the only tango festival in the United States. Everyone wondered whether the country could support new summer events in Chicago, Columbus and Miami. When the Stanford Tango Week came to an end, it was not because it had lost out to other events, rather it was because the organizer wanted to concentrate on other activities. Now there are more than 50 tango festivals in the United States, and we see the continual entry and exit of tango festivals from the market. Some of these festivals cater to the latest stylistic trends. What do the founding organizers get for their effort? 1) An opportunity to dance in a self-sustaining tango community that no longer requires their organizational effort. (How many times did the founding organizers think or say that they'd just like to quit organizing and become dancers in a city where tango was already established?) 2) The opportunity to be revered as one of the original organizers--if they didn't try to hold onto control too long. 3) If the founding organizers started their community in the mid-1990s or earlier, they were also rewarded with the opportunity to create a network of friends across the country and globe made up of founding organizers in other cities. With best regards, Steve (de Tejas) one of the founders of the tango community in Dallas, TX ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Are they really Tango Gods?.. or could it be me?
"I know many women who have found that special feeling in tango when dancing in the milongas with Argentine men. Its a feeling of security and being protected while losing oneself in the music. We can forget all our troubles and be present in the moment. No other dance has the feeling of tango." - from Tango Chamuyo (Blog) http://jantango.wordpress.com/ I've heard this same song from so many women that I'm beginning to wonder what's up? I'm beginning to think it must be like; since they are not in their usual environment where they're own cultural buttons are easily pushed and where they are under >the very scrutinizing eyes of all their peers and those with whom they compete, gossip >about, etc. etc things are naturally more relaxing...and so, they loosen up themselves >and quit being so on-guard all the time...this theory goes for the guys who come back >from BsAs raving about the portenia women, too... - Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] how many tangos?
I have been talking to someone at recent milonga, and someone has asked me, if I get tired of dancing to the same old tangos. My answer was no: the mood, the partner change the emotional meaning of the dance all the time. Besides that, there are a lot of classic tangos I have never had a chance to dance to yet. I have couple thousands recordings by various tango dance orchestras from the golden age of tango myself -- most of them I had never heard played at milongas. Thinking about his question has piqued my curiosity though. Does anyone know how many arrangements have been recorded by all tango dance orchestras in the period from the late twenties to the fifties? ~20,000; 50,000; 100,000...? -- Oleh Kovalchuke Argentine Tango : Connection, Balance, Rhythm http://tangospring.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] how to lead (was 'weight change')
In the way I dance tango, weight shifting per se is not a lead at all. I lead the follower by moving her body axis. As long as I don't move her axis, I can do all kind of steps with my feet: shift weight, do grapevine, whatever, and my partner will not step (for example, independent shift of weight at 1 min 40 sec and at 4 min 10 sec in this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MesNethpYxA ). Your dance style might differ. And its OK. -- Oleh Kovalchuke Argentine Tango : Connection, Balance, Rhythm http://tangospring.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] gender imbalance
Astrid, I'm curious how you determined that people who dance with beginners are "preying" on them? Is there something wrong with dancing with beginners? I don't know if this was your intent, but you come across as being upset that people are dancing with beginners. Rather than simply blaming these men that you appear to have such disdain for, maybe you might consider what you could do differently so that they might prefer to dance with you. Maybe then, you could influence them to improve. I feel fortunate to be in a community where there are some very good followers who don't become snobs around dancers like me who aren't up to their level. It's funny, but I get the most complaints from intermediate dancers. The really good dancers may offer suggestions (and usually only when I ask for them), but they are very positive and encouraging (ie. they also give compliments). I don't know if you realize it, but by driving "mediocre" leaders to dancing with beginners, you are simply increasing the gender imbalance, since it sounds like the beginning followers are getting people to dance with them, so they are more likely to stay with it. What are you doing to encourage the beginning leaders to stay with it, and to get the "mediocre" leaders to improve? David -- > From: "Astrid" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] gender imbalance > To: "Brick Robbins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > > Brick wrote: > > And I'm sure that many of those women thinking the men are not worth > > the time, suck worse than the men they don't want to dance with. > > > And what gives you that idea? It takes a while for a woman to realise that > some of those guys who impressed her in the beginning are actually quite > mediocre compared to the really good ones. You know the type, those who prey > on beginners because they are the only ones they can impress with their > leading? > Whatever, this is news to very few people in here, probably, but the truth > is, on a lucky day, one may discover a new,talented, promising beginner > among the men, while on a bad day, one only sees the same eternal > intermediates who nevertheless may be so full of themselves that they have > closed themselves off to polishing up their weak points, and the gender > imbalance lets them get away with it. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] people who can and can't
Can we get Igor Polk back posting on Tango-L? How about if he promises not to repeat his infraction(s)? Could we take a vote on it? Would that influence the moderator(s) to re-consider his bann? His off-list emails have been sincere and would have been good Tango L fodder, in my own opinion. Thanks for considering this request in his behalf...I didn't ask him if I could do this..I just thought that I'd give it a shot since the topic popped up on-list. - Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] At one with the earth..
Oops, here's the second one by Alberto and Paulina Can we get up a fan club for this guy? Tangaso is publishing the videos and I just sent them a 'thank you' notice.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-7Scl1l5WM ..an aside: for those curious about life in BsAs, here is a really fine TV station from the city.. you can enlarge the screen and voilla Portenio TV in your living room! http://www.tn.com.ar/ - Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] At one with the earth..
Two by Alberto Dassieu ..the Vals was posted before but this is better quality video. I just love the way this guy dances! Someone pointed out his 'soft knees' and I just love the way he seems to be grounded. He seems to be growing from the floor in every move he makes. "Natural" sums it up, for me.. any other comments are welcome. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqgujDIWlOc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqgujDIWlOc - Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] weight change
Floyd, I haven't had a chance to read your lengthy posts, lately. However, last week, someone posted that your video (seeing you dance) suggests ... whatever ... about your teaching. My comment to that is, "Yeah, right!" How many times have I sat and watched and commented to an advanced follower, "Hey, he looks pretty good.", and get the reply, "Not really. He throws me around." I wrote something similar to that a couple of months ago and someone wrote back saying something like, "It takes advanced skill to be able to see ..." In my opinion, some of the greatest aspects of a leader's dance cannot be seen as well as they can be felt. I didn't respond, last week. But, now, it seems like a good time. Your recent posts, like other posts, are insiteful. And, I agree. A leader can change weight umteen times without leading the follower to change weight. How many times have we leaders done a back, side, front while leading the follower to just take a back step? I agree. The follower's weight change is led. I agree that, in open embrace, newer followers will look down and take extra unled steps. I just wanted to say that I do intend, when I find the time, to go back and read through your posts. They are insiteful. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] milonga sequence
Richard wrote: Here is a clip from the Argentine film "La voz de mi ciudad" with Mariano Mores and orquesta playing Taquito Militar. There is a seven second dance sequence at 2:53 which is performed in such a different way. Can anyone explain it? Is it merely a film choreography of no great historical value? or is it an example of an obscure or forgotten style? Richard, It might be choreographed a little bit but the sequence is a fairly basic milonga pattern, with him leading her to step in back, then in front, then in back, etc. while he does the same, or even the opposite...sort of like starting ochos but not finishing them before changing direction. I have done that step a few times myself, but they are jumping around and hamming it up a little bit more than normal, which could have been the director, and which could explain why it looks that way. It is actually not very difficult, if you are fairly competent in traspie. (But it is definitely not a beginner step.) I'll show you next time we cross paths at a milonga. I don't think it is style specific other than being traspie, but who knows?...it could have originated in a barrio or by a particular person...and that might be one of the first appearances on film. I have seen it done in a few performances. Cheers, Charles ** Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp0030002851) ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
