Re: [Tango-L] Gratuitous insults and "social" tango
It certainly wasn't my intention to insult Nuevo dancers. I like to dance some Nuevo elements and I enjoy watching good Nuevo dancers. My point was that, in my opinion, the walk is less important to Nuevo dancers than to those who dance Salon or even Milonguero style. It appears that Nuevo is more figure-oriented. Do you disagree with that? Jack - Original Message > From: David Thorn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > I love the pesky walk in close embrace. I > love the joy of the open, more > intellectual connection that exists in Nuevo. What is the point of insulting > the Nuevo dancers? > ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
David Thorn wrote: > It is one thing to say that I don't like to dance to Piazzolla, or I can't > dance to Piazzolla, or that I have never heard > Piazzolla played at a Milonga in BsAs, or even to say "of course I can but > why in the world would I ever want to?". > > It is an entirely different thing, and I think incorrect, to say that > Piazzolla is not socially danceable. I've certainly often heard Piazzolla played at Milongas in Australia, and I've danced to it myself. It's not the easiest music to dance to, but when you get accustomed to it, it can make for a beautiful dance experience. I'm not a great tango dancer (yet!), but if I enjoyed the dance, and my partner enjoyed the dance, and we followed the ronda and didn't run into anyone, how is that not social dancing, I wonder? -- Myk Dowling ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] (no subject)
Jack Dylan wrote > It appears that Nuevo is more figure-oriented. > Do you disagree with that? Actually, and perhaps surprisingly to some on this list, I do disagree strongly. I'll pick a two very simple examples. A volcada and a quick coldaga. In the volcada, every aspect is led and can be modified or reversed at absolutely any point in the "figure". I can easily lead my follow to sweep large or small radius, lead her leg to stop prior to reaching my position and go back, lead her leg to stop in a (leaning) crusada position with or without a weight change, lead her to sweep her leg so that it stops near me and then convert the volcada into a front step, etc. ad infinitum. Quick Colgada: Say I lead a back ocho and step into my follow, placing one of my feet against 1/2 of her just landed foot and take her off axis (but supported) at the same time. I now have about a billion things I could lead from that position ranging from simply righting her and stepping out, to pivoting her in an outward leaning embrace, with all sorts of stuff in between. Thus every Neuvo element (not figure!) can, and should be, used to help interpret the music. Yes, figures do get used as learning tools, but that should not be confused with dancing. Honestly, I know no figures bigger than an ocho, a front step, a side step, a tip of my partner off axis, etc. I can dance an entire song, lead things I've never lead before, repeat nothing (except perhaps for a few of those pesky walking steps in between stopping to cause a traffic jam). I am also not even remotely unique in the world of leads who are, or are trying to learn to be (this be me), decent Nuevo leads who listen to and interpret the music, just as do dancers of all stripe. Cheers D. David Thorn _ With Windows Live for mobile, your contacts travel with you. http://www.windowslive.com/mobile/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_mobile_072008 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
Joe Grohens wrote: > Maybe you would agree, David, that Piazzolla's music is not well > suited to the dance abilities and preferences of a very high majority > of tango dancers? > You cannot make a general pronunciation. There is no such thing as "Piazolla's music" that is a monolithical slab of black onyx 1:4:9; it's a collection that encompasses many different styles of music. Do I agree that "Adios Noniño" played by a symphony orchestra isn't really dance music? Yes. Some other pieces of music are danceable, period, and it doesn't take rocket science to dance them. For some others, it all depends on context, and it takes a good DJ to appreciate context. -- Alexis Cousein [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
From what I hear, Australia is not a very crowded place. Maybe Piazzolla could be considered social dancing there, but probably no place else.:) So how about designating what is acceptable as social Argentine tango country-by-country, such as Piazolla for Australia, Milonga Gay in every city in the U.S., stage tango in Russia, etc. Instead of other fake styles, such as milonguero, nuevo, etc., there could be new styles,. such as "Argentine tango US style", or "Argentine tango Australian style", etc. :) Nina At 04:40 AM 7/24/2008, Myk Dowling wrote: >I'm not a great tango dancer (yet!), but if I enjoyed the dance, and my >partner enjoyed the dance, and we followed the ronda and didn't run into >anyone, how is that not social dancing, I wonder? > >-- >Myk Dowling >___ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L@mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
> You cannot make a general pronunciation. There is no such thing as > "Piazolla's music" that is a monolithical slab of black onyx 1:4:9; > it's a collection that encompasses many different styles of music. Yes, yes. Of course you are right, Alexei. My earlier statement was a huge generalization. I'm not sure I can make a generalization, but let me try again. The Piazzolla music that was thought of as avant- garde, which was written for listening and not for dancing, and which was called "tango nuevo", seems to me, for the most part, to be difficult for most people to dance to in ordinary social dance settings. Because much of Piazzolla's works for quintet are musically very interesting, and beautiful, and because the sheet music is published and readily available in parts for each instrument, I often hear tango ensembles playing these pieces at milongas. I just think that it is bad judgment. Someone commented to me privately that part of the problem is that most dancers are not very good, and have trouble with anything that doesn't have a metronomic beat. A friend of mine once asked me, on this same topic, if I didn't think that tango dancers needed to evolve their dance forms to adapt to newer music, rather than have the newer music adapt to the old dance forms. These are worthwile points to consider. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo Figures
David, You disagree but then immediately prove my point by describing 2 such Nuevo figures. A Salon or Milonguero dancer might have no such figures to describe. Even Ochos an Giros are just walking steps divided by pivots. Btw, I never said Nuevo figures were not led. I assume they are. But they appear to be figures that both of the couple must know. If the lady doesn't know how to dance Volcadas and Colgadas, they cannot be led by the man. Jack - Original Message > From: David Thorn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Actually, and perhaps surprisingly to some on this list, I do disagree > strongly. > I'll pick a two very simple examples. A volcada and a quick coldaga. > ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Styles of Tango
For many years, there was an old woman in San Telmo on Sundays, in trashy outfits, sometimes intoxicated, dancing tango alone. There was a bandoneon next to her and some pictures of tango dancers and she tried to collect money. There was something quaint about her... How foolish of me not to look to her for tango inspiration! Does anybody know if she is still there? :) Nina At 08:33 PM 7/24/2008, Myk Dowling wrote: But Argentina is more than the BsAs milongas, it's the street dancers and stage shows as well. >-- >Myk Dowling ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Styles of Tango
Nina Pesochinsky wrote: > From what I hear, Australia is not a very crowded place. Maybe > Piazzolla could be considered social dancing there, but probably no > place else.:) Well, it depends more on the size of the dance floor than the size of the country, surely. Yes, we often have a fair amount of space to play with, but certainly not always. > So how about designating what is acceptable as social Argentine tango > country-by-country, such as Piazolla for Australia, Milonga Gay in > every city in the U.S., stage tango in Russia, etc. Instead of other > fake styles, such as milonguero, nuevo, etc., there could be new > styles,. such as "Argentine tango US style", or "Argentine tango > Australian style", etc. :) How about recognising that people dance according to the conditions? If there is space on the floor, it is perfectly acceptable to make use of some of it. When things get crowded, you bring your movements in tighter. In any case, it is certainly possible to dance to Piazzolla in crowded conditions. Like David said, it's a case of what you're used to. If you choose never to dance to nuevo music, you'll never be very practised at dancing to it. I take difficult music as a challenge, especially when the music has as much beauty as Piazzolla's. Dammit, I _want_ to dance to that. I want to turn that fantastic music into movement. Personally, I'm against "splitting up" tango, other than by music. Milonga is different to Tango is different to Vals is different to Nuevo. You dance to each type of music in a different way. I don't dance to a milonga the same way I dance to a tango, any more than I dance nuevo style to a tango or vals. Can anyone claim to dance "true Argentine Tango"? Do they dance the same way in BsAs now as they did in the twenties? Is Tango something to be fossilised and enshrined in a strict form, or is it a living art form? If it's a living art form, which is certainly what I want to be part of, then you can never really define it precisely. And you shouldn't even try. That's what happened to ballroom dancing, and now there's no room for creativity any more in it. As has been pointed out, "Strictly Ballroom" is a scarily accurate portrayal. If people aren't interested in dancing "Argentine Tango", then they'll dance something else. Anyone who calls what they do "Argentine Tango" is presumably looking to Argentina as the source for their art form. But Argentina is more than the BsAs milongas, it's the street dancers and stage shows as well. -- Myk Dowling ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Styles of Tango
Nina Pesochinsky wrote: > For many years, there was an old woman in San Telmo on Sundays, in > trashy outfits, sometimes intoxicated, dancing tango alone. There > was a bandoneon next to her and some pictures of tango dancers and > she tried to collect money. There was something quaint about her... > > How foolish of me not to look to her for tango inspiration! How foolish of me to assume that other people can tell the difference between good dancing and bad dancing other than by its location! -- Myk Dowling ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Styles of Tango
Myk Dowling wrote: > Nina Pesochinsky wrote: >> For many years, there was an old woman in San Telmo on Sundays, in >> trashy outfits, sometimes intoxicated, dancing tango alone. There was >> a bandoneon next to her and some pictures of tango dancers and she >> tried to collect money. There was something quaint about her... >> >> How foolish of me not to look to her for tango inspiration! > > How foolish of me to assume that other people can tell the difference > between good dancing and bad dancing other than by its location! > And actually, who is to say that a drunken trashy dancer by herself might not provide some kind of inspiration? Is there no story of interest to be told there? A sad tale of failure and an uncaring society? The sort of story that very few styles of dance could tell? -- Myk Dowling ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango-L Digest, Vol 28, Issue 23
Social tango: Capussi & Plebes Many years ago, I had the pleasure and rare opportunity to observe Capussi & Malena Plebes dancing "socially" at a milonga briefly, one night at the Montreal Festival. Both of them had come to the Festival teaching and performing with other partners; so I presume that in this instance, their pairing was spontaneous, and un-rehearsed. Capussi did not do anything "theatrical," nor did Ms. Plebes do any of the special things that she is so capable of doing in performance. Rather, they were simply dancing a tanda of milongas together, in the line of dance, having a great time, right along with everyone else, on a relatively crowded dance floor. And, honestly, it was one of the most memorable and spectacular things I can ever recall seeing, in ANY tango venue. So many years later, I can still see it clearly in my mind's eye. Such is the impression it had on me. Similarly, over the years I have seen quite a few well-known figures -- Chicho, Gavito, Salas, and others -- dancing socially in milongas with great beauty and great effect, and without any excessive pretence to stage or performance dancing. So, my hat's off to those who have the good grace, good sense, and the balance of esthetics, to do the right thing in the right place & at the right time. Cheers to all; ckel. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
Joe Grohens wrote: > The Piazzolla music that was thought of as avant- > garde, which was written for listening and not for dancing, and which > was called "tango nuevo", seems to me, for the most part, to be > difficult for most people to dance to in ordinary social dance > settings. No argument from me. But is something like "Bando" or "Preparense" (1955) "nuevo" in this context? Is something like Milonga del Angel "nuevo" in this context? Is "Oblivion" (if you'll excuse the very British expression, the closest tango thing there is to the proverbial smooch dance music at parties)? You'll probably find as many opinions as people expressing them (except from the bulk of staunch guardians of orthodoxy espousing simple views like Piazzolla != danceable). > Because much of Piazzolla's works for quintet are musically > very interesting, and beautiful, and because the sheet music is > published and readily available in parts for each instrument, I often > hear tango ensembles playing these pieces at milongas. I just think > that it is bad judgment. No argument from me. Besides, I know many tango ensembles who make arrangements of non-Piazzolla numbers so obviously tuned to a listening audience that they also become undanceable. There are many ensembles (outside of Argentina) without a *really* good feel for playing for a dance audience, not only because it requires quite a bit of unusual humility. > > Someone commented to me privately that part of the problem is that > most dancers are not very good, and have trouble with anything that > doesn't have a metronomic beat. > That, too. People who dance to beautiful tango as if there were a fat Nubian slave beating the drum on a Roman galley instead of tango music (without ever dancing on the fast beat) make me sad almost as much as people really misinterpreting Piazzolla. I just saw some couples on US TV yesterday with absolutely *no* musicality in their movements, and while they were extremely elegant in their movement, it was obvious they didn't have a clue about what tango is all about -- none of that jazz, if you'll forgive the pun. There is tons of music that has a "metronomic beat" that doesn't require you to dance *only* to the basic 2/4 beat. Picking the instrument you're tracking while you're dancing, and jumping between the jungle of melodic lines, is one of the real pleasures of tango (as is watching other people doing it). > A friend of mine once asked me, on this same topic, if I didn't think > that tango dancers needed to evolve their dance forms to adapt to > newer music, rather than have the newer music adapt to the old dance > forms. > Good tango dancers have been capable of showing extraordinary abilities to adapt, even within traditional tango. I don't think the good dancers to traditional music are the ones who can't dance to something a bit more adventurous (though some don't see the point, and that's their god-given right). It's just that the somewhat less good tango dancers only able to dance to *just* the simple beat or really uncreative at interpretation are made more aware of their limitations when they can't fall back on the metronome. And some resent that with a vengeance. -- Alexis Cousein [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Different feeling in tango
Myk, Your approach to tango seems a bit too naive and too literal, but that probably will change in time. So just a few corrections: 1. Passion is allowed among people regardless of conventional partnerships, if people they are not repressed. 2. Partnerships do not control passion and one does not have to pretend to be playing a role in order to justify sharing passion with someone other than his or her partner. 3, Milonga gay does not mean segregation of gay people. It means that the codes of conduct are relaxed in regards to the music, the gender roles, the invitation style, etc. But... if you are not familiar with these milongas in BsAs, you wouldn't have known it. And you see what I mean about the cultural stuff? All I have to do is throw out the word "milonga gay" to someone raised in the Western homophobic reactionary society and I get an instant response! Keep working on it, Myk. You're doing just fine. Nina At 08:47 PM 7/24/2008, Myk Dowling wrote: >Nina Pesochinsky wrote: >>Noticing the anatomical differences between genders is how >>3-year-olds learn that mommy and daddy are different. > >Actually, I think they recognise their different facial features. >Anatomical differences are way down the list. Human brains are >hard-wired to recognise and distinguish faces > >>The key words in Myk's post are "playing a role". Real dancers do >>not play a role. They dance who they are. If a woman can't quite >>figure out the power of her gender, she is in trouble, just as a >>man swimming in feminine energy. > >Sorry, Nina, but you're wrong. Dancers play a role, because a dance >is telling a story. A good dancer brings their self into the role. >People's psyche's are rarely so pure, and the story of the dance is >rarely reality. If you dance a passionate dance with someone who is >not your partner, you are play-acting, dancing a role. I'm not sure >why you want to be dismissive of this very powerful part of human >culture. Humans can empathise and communicate fiction. It's a >wonderful thing, deserving of great respect. > >>Why is it that the Argentines have no issues with gender >>roles? They dance as men and women, and, if those roles don't >>work, they go to some milonga gay. But they certainly do not try >>to justify abandoning traditional gender roles in the traditional milongas. > >Perhaps it's "traditional" homophobia? What you are describing is >called segregation, and it's something that I for one find quite >abhorrent in principle. Why should gay people have to go to separate milongas? > >>Actually, I am not against tango in energetic gender drag. I just >>want to know when and where it is happening, so that I can be prepared. :) > >"I got nothin' against them gay folk, I jes' don't want to see 'em >kissin' in front o' me!" > >Spend a moment considering the similarities of those two statements, >ignoring the obvious differences. > >-- >Myk Dowling ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
