Re: [Tango-L] To Dance -- or Not to Dance: That is the Question
I have asked this question before - who do you dance with, folks? Do you dance with people or with their tango abilities? Personally, I dance with people. If I like the person, and his technique has suddenly deteriorated for some mysterious reason, such as a spell of some tango sorcerer in Siberia, I would certainly attempt to remove the spell. Tango technique is a fluid thing - it can be restored and reconstructed. In tango, as in all dance, some days are better than others. Some days, there is axis and other days it is on vacation some place. Some days, the body does what it is supposed to and other days it decides to do its own thing and no amount of arguing can change anything. Somehow we push through those moments and dance works out. But a person can be destroyed by rejection. Tango trauma is a serious thing. One of the biggest problems with assumptions in all aspects of life is attribution. We often attribute incorrectly. Michael said that the woman's tension was from dancing with men that don't have good technique. But maybe she had a stressful day instead. There is no linear cause and effect in human experience or behavior. Tango accepts people as they are, with all their feelings. In Buenos Aires, that is still the beauty of the experience - you are expected to dance your feelings, whatever they may be that day. There is freedom in that and integrity. All the best, Nina At 09:12 PM 9/28/2008, Michael wrote: >Based on a lot of messages on this topic, about only dancing with >good dancers and should a lead be refused, I've combined my answer >into one message. > >1) I understand what Ilene wrote. I remember meeting a woman at a >practica. She was very stiff, tight and difficult to lead because >her muscles were frozen from men who lead with their arms, pulling >and pushing her off her balance. I told her to relax and she danced >much better. We used to dance a lot. Then she went back to the men >who caused her to dance poorly because of their tight frame. She >absorbed her tension like a sponge absorbs water. After a while her >dancing deteriorated and I stopped dancing with her. > >Everybody has to answer for themselves if dancing bad tango is >better than no tango. There is no universal right answer. Everybody >makes the decision for themselves. > >2) Refusing a lead >There are a few reasons a woman refuses a lead. When I danced in NY >Sept 20 at Sandra Cameron, there were a few women I couldn't lead >because they were pushing so hard outward on my left hand, they >threw themselves off our alignment. All I can is drop her arm >downward and keep it down no matter how hard she pushes. The other >type is part of a dialogue. Virginia Kelly taught a great class at >the NY Tango Festival (the one in the summer NOT the one coming up) >called Interleading. The woman stopped the man dead in his tracks so >she could do a figure. As long as I was relaxed and understood what >was going on, I didn't freak out. Tango is a dialogue. When the >woman talks, the man has to listen. > > >Michael >Resumed Spanish class for my trip to BA next year >I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango >- Original Message - >From: "Ilene Marder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Lead an invitation that can be ignored or faught > > >I once asked a very good, very well known dancer why he didn't dance with >me anymore. he said... basically..." look at who you are dancing >with...some of them >are not very good and they don't make you look very good. If I dance >with you next, it makes me look bad..." > > >Jack Dylan wrote: > >It seems that Sean will not only not dance with women who are not >good dancers but with women who agree >to dance with men who are not good dancers. > >___ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L@mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] To Dance -- or Not to Dance: That is the Question
the good news is that since this happened several years ago, my level jumped and the dancer in question and I have danced often. And by the way, he was a good friend or I would have never asked him the question...! Michael wrote: > >1) I understand what Ilene wrote. > > >Michael >Resumed Spanish class for my trip to BA next year >I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango >- Original Message - >From: "Ilene Marder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Lead an invitation that can be ignored or faught > > >I once asked a very good, very well known dancer why he didn't dance with >me anymore. he said... basically..." look at who you are dancing with.. > > > > > > ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] To Dance -- or Not to Dance: That is the Question
Based on a lot of messages on this topic, about only dancing with good dancers and should a lead be refused, I've combined my answer into one message. 1) I understand what Ilene wrote. I remember meeting a woman at a practica. She was very stiff, tight and difficult to lead because her muscles were frozen from men who lead with their arms, pulling and pushing her off her balance. I told her to relax and she danced much better. We used to dance a lot. Then she went back to the men who caused her to dance poorly because of their tight frame. She absorbed her tension like a sponge absorbs water. After a while her dancing deteriorated and I stopped dancing with her. Everybody has to answer for themselves if dancing bad tango is better than no tango. There is no universal right answer. Everybody makes the decision for themselves. 2) Refusing a lead There are a few reasons a woman refuses a lead. When I danced in NY Sept 20 at Sandra Cameron, there were a few women I couldn't lead because they were pushing so hard outward on my left hand, they threw themselves off our alignment. All I can is drop her arm downward and keep it down no matter how hard she pushes. The other type is part of a dialogue. Virginia Kelly taught a great class at the NY Tango Festival (the one in the summer NOT the one coming up) called Interleading. The woman stopped the man dead in his tracks so she could do a figure. As long as I was relaxed and understood what was going on, I didn't freak out. Tango is a dialogue. When the woman talks, the man has to listen. Michael Resumed Spanish class for my trip to BA next year I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango - Original Message - From: "Ilene Marder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Lead an invitation that can be ignored or faught I once asked a very good, very well known dancer why he didn't dance with me anymore. he said... basically..." look at who you are dancing with...some of them are not very good and they don't make you look very good. If I dance with you next, it makes me look bad..." Jack Dylan wrote: It seems that Sean will not only not dance with women who are not good dancers but with women who agree to dance with men who are not good dancers. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] milonga in San Francisco (Oct 4th-5th)
To see a list of favorites, check out www.inscenes.com then click on Tango in the left column. Have fun. -Original Message- From: Dyane Auclair [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 10:30 PM To: 'tango list' Subject: [Tango-L] milonga in San Francisco (Oct 4th-5th) I will be in San Francisco (my first visit) on Saturday Oct 4th or Sunday Oct 5th and would like to go to a nice milonga. Any suggestions? Dyane _ It's simple! Sell your car for just $40 at CarPoint.com.au http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fsecure%2Dau%2Eimrworldwide%2Ecom%2Fcgi%2Dbin%2Fa%2Fci%5F450304%2Fet%5F2%2Fcg%5F801459%2Fpi%5F1004813%2Fai%5F859641&_t=762955845&_r=tig_OCT07&_m=EXT ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] milonga in San Francisco (Oct 4th-5th)
I will be in San Francisco (my first visit) on Saturday Oct 4th or Sunday Oct 5th and would like to go to a nice milonga. Any suggestions? Dyane _ It's simple! Sell your car for just $40 at CarPoint.com.au http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fsecure%2Dau%2Eimrworldwide%2Ecom%2Fcgi%2Dbin%2Fa%2Fci%5F450304%2Fet%5F2%2Fcg%5F801459%2Fpi%5F1004813%2Fai%5F859641&_t=762955845&_r=tig_OCT07&_m=EXT ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Lead an invitation that can be ignored or faught
--- On Wed, 9/24/08, Jack Dylan wrote: "Wow, some of you guys are tough. It seems that Sean will not only not dance with women who are not good dancers but with women who agree to dance with men who are not good dancers." Hi Jack, I don't mean to be tough, punative, or to prevent other guys from getting dances. I'm just looking for my best chance to "catch the ghost". In a 4 hour milonga, I might dance only 6 to 8 tandas. (More if the DJ is really great.) So I use various strategies to try and choose the women who will both enjoy dancing with me and who I will enjoy dancing with. First obviously is watching how well the women dance (and wherther she back-leads :D ). But I also watch who their partners are, how those partners dance, and how they react to her. --- On Wed, 9/24/08, Jack Dylan also wrote: "It also raises the question of how you choose your dance partners. Is the ONLY criteria, as Sean implies, that they are 'good dancers'." I did not mean to imply that; that they are 'good dancers' is necessary but not sufficient. Any of the other things you mention could also apply if you are able to choose between several 'good dancers'. ;-) In my opinion, the phrase 'good dancers' is so subjective, and so emotionally loaded that it is useless in a forum like this. I would prefer a term like "compatible dancers". I don't usually seek out the best dancers in the room. If a woman is not thrilled to be dancing with me, I'm not going to enjoy the dance either. So I look for the women that I think I can thrill, and who will also be able to thrill me. Sean PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh’s most popular social dance! http://patangos.home.comcast.net/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Lead an invitation that can be ignored or faught
I once asked a very good, very well known dancer who had asked me to dance several times and was very complimentary, why he didn't dance with me anymore. he said... basically..." look at who you are dancing with...some of them are not very good and they don't make you look very good. If I dance with you next, it makes me look bad..." he told me most good dancers-at least in Buenos Aires, think like that. I have found that to be true. because I wanted to continue dancing with him, I became much more choosey ...it was difficult at first, but well worth it, in terms of the dance. I have many friends who I like but it doesn't mean I want to dance with them. Jack Dylan wrote: Wow, some of you guys are tough. It seems that Sean will not only not dance with women who are not good dancers but with women who agree to dance with men who are not good dancers. It makes me feel a little sorry for the nice ladies who agree to dance with me :-). Does it mean they will miss out on dancing with the very best dancers? > > ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Lead an invitation that can be ignored or faught
p.s. in tango, you have to earn the right to be on the floor and to dance with good dancers. It's just the way it is. Jack Dylan wrote: >Wow, some of you guys are tough. It seems that Sean will not only not >dance with women who are not good dancers but with women who agree >to dance with men who are not good dancers. It makes me feel a little sorry >for the nice ladies who agree to dance with me :-). Does it mean they will >miss out on dancing with the very best dancers? > >It also raises the question of how you choose your dance partners. Is the >ONLY criteria, as Sean implies, that they are 'good dancers'. That certainly >isn't the case with me or, I think, with most of the people I know. My only >criteria is that I like the lady or, if I don't know her, then I think I will >like her. >If I don't think she's a nice person or I dislike her for any other reason, I >will >never dance with her and I don't care how well she dances. But, if I like her, >I'll always dance with her. And, if she's not very good, then I hope I can >help >her to improve. If I see a lady struggling to dance with a man who isn't very >good it probably means she's a nice lady and, in my case, would make it >more likely that I would dance with her. > >I am just so grateful to all the women who agreed to dance with me when >I was absolutely awful. And I would feel very sorry if, because of that, they >missed out on dancing with men who are good dancers but think the same >way as Sean. > >Jack > > > > >- Original Message > > >>From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> > > > >> So if I see a woman dancing with that sort of a man, I am >>not likely to invite her to dance. The odds of her being a "good" dancer are >>just too low. >> >> >>Sean >> >> >> > > > > > > >___ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L@mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > > > ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Lead an invitation that can be ignored or faught
Wow, some of you guys are tough. It seems that Sean will not only not dance with women who are not good dancers but with women who agree to dance with men who are not good dancers. It makes me feel a little sorry for the nice ladies who agree to dance with me :-). Does it mean they will miss out on dancing with the very best dancers? It also raises the question of how you choose your dance partners. Is the ONLY criteria, as Sean implies, that they are 'good dancers'. That certainly isn't the case with me or, I think, with most of the people I know. My only criteria is that I like the lady or, if I don't know her, then I think I will like her. If I don't think she's a nice person or I dislike her for any other reason, I will never dance with her and I don't care how well she dances. But, if I like her, I'll always dance with her. And, if she's not very good, then I hope I can help her to improve. If I see a lady struggling to dance with a man who isn't very good it probably means she's a nice lady and, in my case, would make it more likely that I would dance with her. I am just so grateful to all the women who agreed to dance with me when I was absolutely awful. And I would feel very sorry if, because of that, they missed out on dancing with men who are good dancers but think the same way as Sean. Jack - Original Message > From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) [EMAIL PROTECTED] > So if I see a woman dancing with that sort of a man, I am > not likely to invite her to dance. The odds of her being a "good" dancer are > just too low. > > > Sean > ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist
David, Nice find! Thank goodness we now have a voice that people might listen to :-) Or maybe not. Who wants to be the first to tell us that Gavito got it wrong? Jack - Original Message > From: David <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > PS: Who made this quote? > > "I lead every thing. Everything! I lead her foot during the boleo...if she > blinks, I lead that, too!" > > For the answer, see here: > http://www.tangopulse.net/tango_pulse_sound_bites.htm > ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] front ochos or crosses in close embrace?
I agree. Contra-body torsion is extremely important in tango and requires a flexible spine. One of my favourite warm-up exercises is to stand backing a wall, a short distance away. With hands up, palms out and without moving the feet, twist as much as you can to place your palms on the wall. If you can twist enough, you can place your forehead on the wall. The aim is to twist enough so that your shoulders are parallel to the wall but this is difficult. If you have a practice partner, it's fun to do it while backing each other, twist in opposite directions and place palms against each others. Check who's the most flexible - it's usually the lady :-). Jack - Original Message > From: Joe Grohens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > For Mario - you might try more contra body torsion for both you and her. > > -joe ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] front ochos or crosses in close embrace?
Hi Mario, I have a few suggestions, and will not talk about posture, as you for sure have thought about that already. Trying to put words on the front ocho in circular system of movement is difficult and obviously my explanation is not sufficient. Get somebody to show it to you! But know you know what you shold be asking for :-) On 23 Sep 2008 at 12:18, Mario wrote: > I am focusing on the front crosses or front ochos however they are called > in close embrace. > It often feels to me that there is not enough room to do them in close > embrace. First, when dancing close and taking a crossed step forward it is a very common mistake to let hip go forward. In other words, during a crossed right step forward, the right hip often goes forward too (rotates counterclockwise). Try to resist this. Try even to counter this by pulling your right hip one centimeter back while you stretch your right foot forward (this is just a image that helps). The same applies for men and women. If both know how to walk while holding their hip back, you can use a crossed front step almost everywhere time. Second, front ochos in close embrace works best if you use circular system of movement, (not linear). This variation of the front ocho is difficult, but delightful when it works. During the circular system front ocho in closed style, there are only two kinds of steps: the circular sidestep for the man, and the circular crossed forward step for the woman. Unfortunately, both steps are difficult. In addition, between each step is a turn of the direction. Two different systems of movement The way I use this concepts, in linear system of movement the center of both dancer (their weight) is moving in same direction, the lead is more in leader's chest, and a follower's response to a leaders weight shift is a weight shift (a step). In circular system of movement (used in most giros), the dancers weights are moving in the same direction in a circle (and thus in opposite directions in relation to a line), focus moves away from the leaders chest to leaders back, and a follower's response to a leaders weight shift is turning their hip (a pivot). Thus in the a front ocho upper bodies are together at all times, and one complete front ocho can be described as circular movement clockwise, change of direction with pivot, circular movement counter clockwise, change of direction with pivot. During the circular movement, the woman takes a crossed front step through the circle and the man takes an open sidestep following the circle with his back. Use a prologment of the women´s front step to place it. Change of direction is given by the leader's weight shift, which must be timed and placed so that initiates the pivot for the follower and gives the speed, duration and degree of her pivot. Because the follower is twisted, when the weight shift comes, this initiates a turn in the follower´s hip and foot. Leader initiates a new step through the circle for follower with movement of his back (in giro we both follow the circle, in front ocho the woman´s walk is through the circle) leader uses his back to turn the circle (think of it as a rope around the couple, grab the rope and rotate the circle). Getting started To start a circular forward ocho, first the man needs to communicate the change to circular system. Therefore, the easiest way to start is a circular sidestep clockwise, thus leader moves to the left, and follower to the right. (If this sidestep is linear, it is unintuitive, but possible, to change system of movement during the next step.) Now the leader keeps the circle rotating clockwise and invites the follower to a forward crossed step in circular, which is the first step of the ocho. An easy exercise is to alternate between starting the front ocho and ocho cortado from the circular sidestep. While in Ocho cortado the direction of movement in the circle changes, before completing the side step, while this particular forward ocho starts on the next step, if the circular movement from the sidestep just keeps going...and the rest of the lead is there. The circular sidestep A common problem is that the line of movement of the dancer´s weight does not follow the circle. Imagine that you are dancing inside a barrel or tube, and your back caresses the inside of this, at all times, during the ocho. No exceptions! Leaders are often lazy and do not turn their bodies enough prior to the followers pivot. Exercise for sidestep in circular system for both: Stand in the middle of a side step. Grab each others shoulder blades or hold just below them. Have some distance between the couple, so that the feet form a perfect square, and are placed directly below the circle created by the arms. Now imagine that you have wings and you want to fold them open, stretch your wings out, and around your partner. Imagine that you are insi
[Tango-L] Tango in Gainesville, FL
http://gainesvilletango.wordpress.com/ I just made a blog with current links for anyone looking to find Argentine Tango in Gainesville, FL since I just moved here 3 weeks ago and all the local Web sites and newspapers have mostly outdated/inaccurate information. (We basically have three venues now and occasional workshops with visiting teachers.) We have a nice little community of Tango lovers here in Gainesville and surrounding areas and all Tango dancers are welcome if you come to visit Gainesville. Best Regards, Steve Littler ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Omar Vega
I didn't join this list for many years. Omar Vega's death made me return to it. To end all rumors before they begin: There were no drugs involved! He always hated drugs. At the moment nobody can tell what he died of. Even the doctors don't know. The only thing they know for sure is that he couldn breath any more. There are many stories about him. I can asure you, he could read. Not as well as people in the western world can, that' right. As a kid he never had the time to go to school. He had to survive. But he was no orphan. He entered school when he was an adult. And the friend who made him go to school, took him out to a milonga. Thats how he got in touch with tango. And tango became his life. Pepito Avellaneda was his most important teacher. For me, and I assume for many others too, Omar was el rey del traspie. Whoever danced with him, will probably never forget it. He once told me, that when he stars to dance he' enters a bubble. All music around him and nothing there except music and his partner. He's buried at Chacarita. And there will be a Milonga for him this wednesday in Buenos Aires. He was a great dancer. Verena ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
