Re: [Tango-L] improving discussion in our forum -- sugestions
Amaury de Siqueira wrote: > In such situations humans (showing remarkable adaptability) created > strategies for coping with the lack of minimal cues. Such strategies include > the use of emoticons :-) ... :-( ;-/ ; acronyms (LOL, IMHO, LOLAR) ; > and certain writing strategies to minimize potential for misunderstandings. If I'm joking, I'll consider using them. But I'm trying to have a serious discussion about the _differences_ that separate nuevo tango from what came before (which I refer to as "traditional tango" for sake of convenience). > The use of absolute statements is not very helpful and sometimes alienating. > For example Myk writes --> > "... must have _some_ difference"; > " ...You cannot lead an underarm..."; > "... All leading comes from the chest..."; and etc But sometimes an absolute statement is helpful. Does anyone want to deny that there _is_ a difference between nuevo and traditional tango? If so, they're welcome to say so. _That's_ the way to have a discussion. I welcome anyone to explain how an underarm turn can _possibly_ be lead without using one's arm. Some absolute statements are entirely justified. And I was simply repeating other people's "all leading comes from the chest" statements in order to deconstruct the statement, so you can't blame that absolute statement on me. I was in fact just saying that it's not entirely true. > (I could go on extracting more text from the message... but this must suffice. > > Another helpful hint for successful communication is to avoid complex > constructs of ideas... for example our dear Chicho simply stated "not arms... > just connection"... that should be enough. I mean I don’t know you guys but > I have the sense that our audience has shown over the years a certain amount > of fluency and intelligence. So there is no reason to offend the audience by > repeating oneself an restating the obvious. No, it isn't enough, because he might just be (gasp!) wrong. When it comes down to it, people don't always realise what they do with their own bodies. What does Chicho mean when he says "just connection"? When his only physical connection to his partner is through his arms, then surely he _is_ using them? And what on Earth is _wrong_ with using your arms to dance? Where did this whole "no arms" schtick come from, and how has it become elevated to such a high level of worthiness? People are treating this like it's a touchier subject than religion or politics. It's just dancing, people! Relax! > Finally, we should all know that the real experts seldom if ever post to the > list... What I mean is that we are all AMATEURS... So we should show some > humility and tone down our language and thoughts of intellectual and dance > grandeur. But doing that makes the list a bland nonentity that isn't worth reading. We become more than amateurs by discussing things, and using what we learn. Humble posts with little substance and many qualifiers are _boring_ posts. Let me just make one thing clear. I _like_ nuevo. I dance nuevo myself at times (though nowhere near as well as Damian, let alone Chicho). Myk in Canberra ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Waiting for a dance
Well, asking for a dance is generally a good way to address that issue I would think. As far as you "feeling the pressure", well, it your prerogative to feel whatever you want and act according to your wishes. I dance with the people I want to for as long as we both want to dance together. The only exception to that it would be if I was hired to be a "taxi dancer". Assuming I would take such a job that is. "What do I have to do to get a dance around here?" > > Personally I normally only dance 3 songs with a lady at a practica, > especially if there are ladies waiting. If I dance longer, I feel the eyes > and pressure on me to change partners. > ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Waiting for a dance
Here in Portland woman ask men to dance all the time, whether at milongas or practicas. J _ Windows Live™: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_explore_022009 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Waiting for a dance
Is the practica a real practica or a milonga in disguise? If it's a practica, she's free to approach men to practice with her. Trini de Pittsburgh --- On Wed, 2/11/09, Vince Bagusauskas wrote: > From: Vince Bagusauskas > Subject: [Tango-L] Waiting for a dance > To: tango-l@mit.edu > Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 3:24 PM > Last week at one of the practicas I went to that had for > once more or less > equal numbers of men/women. One lady who is a reasonable > beginner asked me > this question in an exasperated voice: > > "What do I have to do to get a dance around > here?" > > I was a bit stunned to realize that she was sitting out on > that night. > > Personally I normally only dance 3 songs with a lady at a > practica, > especially if there are ladies waiting. If I dance longer, > I feel the eyes > and pressure on me to change partners. > > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Waiting for a dance
Last week at one of the practicas I went to that had for once more or less equal numbers of men/women. One lady who is a reasonable beginner asked me this question in an exasperated voice: "What do I have to do to get a dance around here?" I was a bit stunned to realize that she was sitting out on that night. Personally I normally only dance 3 songs with a lady at a practica, especially if there are ladies waiting. If I dance longer, I feel the eyes and pressure on me to change partners. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Close embrace - Open embrace
With that much dancing I would be sure it is just a rubbing sore. Better keep open embrace until it is gone well away. But men can develop breast cancer. As men are usually reluctant to go to the doctor I would strongly urge you (or any other man in a similar circumstance) to seek medical advice if the pain persists. Vince -- From: "Steve Littler" Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 8:53 AM To: "Tango-L List" Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Close embrace - Open embrace ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] improving discussion in our forum -- sugestions
I probably should just mind my own business and do as I have said before in other postings work instead of reading tango related messages. However I see an opportunity here to help future online interactions. The problem with text only computer mediated communication (mostly text-based applications such as chat, BBS and email) is that the medium is in itself very 'lean'. By lean I mean we do not have other nuances such as visual and aural cues for us to interpret what someone is 'saying'. In such situations humans (showing remarkable adaptability) created strategies for coping with the lack of minimal cues. Such strategies include the use of emoticons :-) ... :-( ;-/ ; acronyms (LOL, IMHO, LOLAR) ; and certain writing strategies to minimize potential for misunderstandings. Having said that... we can also really complicate communication in lean text-based communication . Here are some approaches that do not lend themselves to constructive communication... The use of absolute statements is not very helpful and sometimes alienating. For example Myk writes --> "... must have _some_ difference"; " ...You cannot lead an underarm..."; "... All leading comes from the chest..."; and etc (I could go on extracting more text from the message... but this must suffice. Another helpful hint for successful communication is to avoid complex constructs of ideas... for example our dear Chicho simply stated "not arms... just connection"... that should be enough. I mean I don’t know you guys but I have the sense that our audience has shown over the years a certain amount of fluency and intelligence. So there is no reason to offend the audience by repeating oneself an restating the obvious. Finally, we should all know that the real experts seldom if ever post to the list... What I mean is that we are all AMATEURS... So we should show some humility and tone down our language and thoughts of intellectual and dance grandeur. Following these simple rules could help improve the quality of our discussions. Amaury PS: On a side note I must note that some of these patterns of behavior are ingrained in people as a result of educational, cultural, and GENDER experiences. So things will not change overnight ... but at least we can try. -Original Message- From: tango-l-boun...@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-boun...@mit.edu] On Behalf Of Myk Dowling Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 10:27 AM To: tango-l Subject: Re: [Tango-L] R-E-S-P-E-C-T David Thorn wrote: > It appears to me that both "traditional tango" and "social tango" are often > used as code to mean 'close embrace all the time tango'. > So what term can we use to refer to the tango that is not "nuevo tango"? That's what I was using "Traditional tango" for. > Such use would seem to ignore the fact that, as has been oft noted in this > list, the nuevo style of tango actually contains no "new" movements! All > modern tango movement can be found, or its roots found, in the dance of years > past. So perhaps nuevo is actually quite traditional and perhaps it is > insulting to those who dance "modern tango" to be told that they are not > dancing with respect for the traditions of tango. The nuevo style must have _some_ difference, or we wouldn't be able to call it a distinct style. If it contains no new movements, then the difference would seem (in my observation) to be in the dancers' alignment relative to their partners' chests. Does anyone actually want to _discuss_ this? > Finally, I'll mention the lead. A good modern tango dancer nearly always > leads with his chest, his core and his heart. If my partner is to my side, I > still lead with my heart and my core. I don't ever shove her with my arms. > The arms are merely the extension of my core and provide the instantaneous > connection between my heart and hers. Yes, I do use my arms, my wrists, my > fingers, but the lead is from my core. The rest just adds nuance. Again, it > is both insulting and inaccurate to say that modern tango, when danced well, > is not led with the heart and the chest. You cannot lead an underarm turn without using your arms. (Surely that is obvious?) The motion and the intent still comes from the chest, but to claim that that's what "chest leading" means is to rob the term of any effective meaning. All leading comes from the chest (and the "heart", if you insist, but I'm really just talking about the basics) from one perspective. But in some dances, the arms play a greater role than others. It's simple fact. To guide your partner to move to your side (relative to your chest) and back in front can't be done just with the chest. How this observation can be considered to be insulting, is what baffles me. I say "here is a difference I can see". And in response, I get people saying I'm being insulting. What insult? Why is perceived _difference_ an insult? Myk in Canberra __
Re: [Tango-L] R-E-S-P-E-C-T
David Thorn wrote: > It appears to me that both "traditional tango" and "social tango" are often > used as code to mean 'close embrace all the time tango'. > So what term can we use to refer to the tango that is not "nuevo tango"? That's what I was using "Traditional tango" for. > Such use would seem to ignore the fact that, as has been oft noted in this > list, the nuevo style of tango actually contains no "new" movements! All > modern tango movement can be found, or its roots found, in the dance of years > past. So perhaps nuevo is actually quite traditional and perhaps it is > insulting to those who dance "modern tango" to be told that they are not > dancing with respect for the traditions of tango. The nuevo style must have _some_ difference, or we wouldn't be able to call it a distinct style. If it contains no new movements, then the difference would seem (in my observation) to be in the dancers' alignment relative to their partners' chests. Does anyone actually want to _discuss_ this? > Finally, I'll mention the lead. A good modern tango dancer nearly always > leads with his chest, his core and his heart. If my partner is to my side, I > still lead with my heart and my core. I don't ever shove her with my arms. > The arms are merely the extension of my core and provide the instantaneous > connection between my heart and hers. Yes, I do use my arms, my wrists, my > fingers, but the lead is from my core. The rest just adds nuance. Again, it > is both insulting and inaccurate to say that modern tango, when danced well, > is not led with the heart and the chest. You cannot lead an underarm turn without using your arms. (Surely that is obvious?) The motion and the intent still comes from the chest, but to claim that that's what "chest leading" means is to rob the term of any effective meaning. All leading comes from the chest (and the "heart", if you insist, but I'm really just talking about the basics) from one perspective. But in some dances, the arms play a greater role than others. It's simple fact. To guide your partner to move to your side (relative to your chest) and back in front can't be done just with the chest. How this observation can be considered to be insulting, is what baffles me. I say "here is a difference I can see". And in response, I get people saying I'm being insulting. What insult? Why is perceived _difference_ an insult? Myk in Canberra ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
