[Tango-L] Truth in Tango Advertising Tango Detente
- Original Message From: Vince Bagusauskas vy...@hotmail.com Subject: [Tango-L] Subject: Re: No place left to dance The point being that alternative music implies nuevo moves, that terrifies some traditionalist people and thus causes much debate. However, if the term alternative milonga keeps the traditionalists away, it gives more room for nuevo. Sort of a win-win situation then. If nuevoists do not pass on the 'traditional' milonga, then there is a 'heads I win, tails you lose' situation for them. If nuevoists call their milongas 'alternative', do traditionalists need to call their milongas 'traditional', or is just plain 'milonga' OK? Perhaps out of necessity they need to say 'traditional Buenos Aires style milonga with all classic tango music'. This will scare away people who dislike dancing tango in a close embrace and who dislike classic tango music for dancing tango. And do they need to call their classes 'Argentine tango' to differentiate if from 'tango for export'? (You know, the tango danced at milongas outside Argentina) Odd thing is, in Buenos Aires there are about 100 (just plain) 'milongas' per week where all classic tango music is played and people dance 'tango' (maybe 'tango de salon' to differentiate it from 'tango fantasia'). Perhaps it is too much to expect the rest of the tango world to follow Argentine standards. What do traditionalists need to do to let attendees know that at their milongas, one adheres to a line of dance, keeps feet on the floor, and generally respects the space of other dancers on the floor? I don't mean I can zip around the floor with rapid and large movements and I will not collide with anyone because this puts traditionalists into an unpleasant defensive driving mode (one foot on the break pedal, always looking in the mirrors). We don't enjoy playing tango police nearly as much as you think we do. We just want to dance in peace. I believe we can have separate events and if we agree to label them without ambiguity, we can all respect the codes of the events we attend and tango milonguero and nuevo can both live in peace and respect each other, sort of a 'tango detente'. They will live in separate niches because they are different species of tango. How about: Tango milonguero dancers have 'traditional' milongas with 'all classic tango music'. The classes they teach are 'Argentine Tango'. Nuevo dancers have 'alternative milongas' with a mix of classic tango, modern tango, nuevo tango, neotango, and non-tango music. The classes they teach are 'Nuevo Tango'. If we had this truth in advertising, there should be a lot fewer conflicts. Ron ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Truth in Tango Advertising Tango Detente
It's all about the marketing. There's a new ad in the tango magazines here for classes in Tango Nuevo Milonguero !!! Now what in the heck is that? I'm sure the phrase will attract folks who want to be on the cutting edge and/or perhaps to dance both traditional and nuevo. I suppose the promoters want to appeal to everybody. Was it that long ago when there was only tango? cherie http://tangocherie.blogspot.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] commentary on advertisement, classes and workshops
The 'Walmartization' of Tango MEGA WORKSHOPS jam packed with teachers in glitzy locations around the world are a common sight today. How far from the bohemian atmosphere of local dancing bars these events have become. Siting in a circle sipping mate while enjoying a friendly talk with teachers and dancers are simply not possible in these MEGA events. Similar consumerism driven actions have also existed among teachers. Some have created imaginary divisive lines across styles others have claim invention of a complete new form of true AT. How sad all this seems to be... I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] commentary on advertisement, classes and workshops
Amaury is right. It is sad. Tango is very simple. It is nothing more than music, poetry and the embrace of two people. But many people never look long enough into these simple things to see the beauty that they offer. They don't see that no other invention is needed. Best, Nina - Original Message - From: Amaury de Siqueira amauryc...@yahoo.com To: Tango-L@mit.edu Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 8:13 AM Subject: [Tango-L] commentary on advertisement, classes and workshops The 'Walmartization' of Tango MEGA WORKSHOPS jam packed with teachers in glitzy locations around the world are a common sight today. How far from the bohemian atmosphere of local dancing bars these events have become. Siting in a circle sipping mate while enjoying a friendly talk with teachers and dancers are simply not possible in these MEGA events. Similar consumerism driven actions have also existed among teachers. Some have created imaginary divisive lines across styles others have claim invention of a complete new form of true AT. How sad all this seems to be... I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Truth in Tango Advertising Tango Detente
Nuevo dancers have 'alternative milongas' with a mix of classic tango, modern tango, nuevo tango, neotango, and non-tango music. Now I want to know the definitions of modern tango, nuevo tango, neotango and how they differ from each other. Sergey May you be forever touched by His Noodly Appendage... ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster ) ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Cafes de Buenos Aires - The day of the cafes -
Today is the day of The Cafe de Buenos Aires. The Cafe is an institution and a tradition in the life of Buenos Aires, a place where you can go to have a cup of coffe, meet a friend, read, and see intellectuals, politicians and artists. Going into the Tortoni to have a cup of coffee, to meet someone there, to attend any of the innumerable cultural functions offered there, is getting into the very kernel of tradition. Tradition is not the past. Tradition, transmission, comes from tradere, to give. Tradition is the offering of the best of the past to the men of the present and the future. It is not only in the walls of the Tortoni -which in themselves are worthy of a museum- but mainly in the spiritual climate that its management has wisely created, that the best of our porteño past can be found. And one day we shall find the best of the present there, once it has aged enough. The tourist who arrives in Buenos Aires has the entire city in the Tortoni: the past, in its walls; the present, sitting at its tables; the future, in the enthusiasm of the people who work there for the sake of culture. José Gobello, 1998. Clarin Newspaper has videos and pictures: http://www.clarin.com/diario/2009/10/27/um/m-02027450.htm Other pictures: http://images.google.com/images?hl=ensource=hpq=cafes+de+buenos+airesum=1ie=UTF-8ei=aSHnSszvBMX3lAer28iSAQsa=Xoi=image_result_groupct=titleresnum=5ved=0CCMQsAQwBA Gran Cafe Tortoni is the oldest it was built in 1857 http://www.cafetortoni.com.ar/ it has text in spanish, French and English. Best regards, Sergio _ Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen2:102009 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] commentary on advertisement, classes and workshops
Thank you Nina. I hope one day come to visit you in your community simply to dance and enjoy a few hours of good company! Abrazos,Amaury --- On Tue, 10/27/09, Nina Pesochinsky n...@earthnet.net wrote: From: Nina Pesochinsky n...@earthnet.net Subject: Re: [Tango-L] commentary on advertisement, classes and workshops To: Tango-L@mit.edu Date: Tuesday, October 27, 2009, 7:21 AM Amaury is right. It is sad. Tango is very simple. It is nothing more than music, poetry and the embrace of two people. But many people never look long enough into these simple things to see the beauty that they offer. They don't see that no other invention is needed. Best, Nina - Original Message - From: Amaury de Siqueira amauryc...@yahoo.com To: Tango-L@mit.edu Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 8:13 AM Subject: [Tango-L] commentary on advertisement, classes and workshops The 'Walmartization' of Tango MEGA WORKSHOPS jam packed with teachers in glitzy locations around the world are a common sight today. How far from the bohemian atmosphere of local dancing bars these events have become. Siting in a circle sipping mate while enjoying a friendly talk with teachers and dancers are simply not possible in these MEGA events. Similar consumerism driven actions have also existed among teachers. Some have created imaginary divisive lines across styles others have claim invention of a complete new form of true AT. How sad all this seems to be... I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Truth in Tango Advertising Tango Detente
let ´s see... definitions... modern tango, Boedo, 1929. Why modern ? Because De Caro made an arrangement where his hornet violin, play a counterpoint to the bandoneon of Laurentz .. nuevo tango , El negro Shicoba, 1867, made in Uruguay .the character described , who can be loose translated as the balck broom , was part of the dancing of candombe or candomble, the afroamerican dance . It has a different pattern of music, so later it was considered the first tango widely known , it is possible that many other music of those years could being played as candombe and was an evolution to tango . Sebastian Piana made an excellent compilation of songs and shoutings of street vendors on the street of Buenos Aires from 1810 onwards , writing it down into musical arrangementes. Although they are no tangos as we considered it now, two centuries later , definitely , El negro Shicoba, have a different music, nuevo. neotango:maybe on 1897, when Rosendo Mendizabal composed el Entrerriano, using a piano, who was something completely different from the musical instruments used before. I can keep going backwards to the big bang and the theory the explosion sounded in a 2 x 4 rhytm beating :) alberto --- El mar 27-oct-09, Sergey Kazachenko syarz...@gmail.com escribió: De: Sergey Kazachenko syarz...@gmail.com Asunto: Re: [Tango-L] Truth in Tango Advertising Tango Detente Para: RonTango ronta...@rocketmail.com Cc: tango-l@mit.edu Fecha: martes, 27 de octubre de 2009, 2:37 pm Nuevo dancers have 'alternative milongas' with a mix of classic tango, modern tango, nuevo tango, neotango, and non-tango music. Now I want to know the definitions of modern tango, nuevo tango, neotango and how they differ from each other. Sergey May you be forever touched by His Noodly Appendage... ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster ) ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l Yahoo! Cocina Encontra las mejores recetas con Yahoo! Cocina. http://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Truth in Tango Advertising Tango Detente
--- On Tue, 10/27/09, RonTango ronta...@rocketmail.com wrote: What do traditionalists need to do to let attendees know that at their milongas, one adheres to a line of dance, keeps feet on the floor, and generally respects the space of other dancers on the floor? I don't mean I can zip around the floor with rapid and large movements and I will not collide with anyone because this puts traditionalists into an unpleasant defensive driving mode (one foot on the break pedal, always looking in the mirrors). We don't enjoy playing tango police nearly as much as you think we do. We just want to dance in peace. ~~~ Honestly, I don't understand this not being able to set the tone of the milonga or develop a reputation such that standards of behavior are not known. I really don't. Certainly not up to the point that it feels as if one is trying to keep people away. I've never had a problem like this. Every once in a while (once a year, perhaps), I'll have to approach someone or their teacher about a navigation issue, but that's it. Local teachers talk about the line of dance, but we don't typically need to do special classes or workshops on navigation. I don't feel a need to separate out people who do social nuevo steps at our local milongas. Milongas using Golden Age music are simply milongas. Milongas using alternative music are alternative milongas. Perhaps the approach should not be that it is the other people that is the problem. Perhaps the approach should focus on what the milonga organizer stands for, what his/her image needs to be, and that should be strong enough on its own. I mean, would you dress in torn jeans and a t-shirt when you go into a BMW showroom? Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Tango nuevo milonguero Gavito mnemonics
I once listened to a mnemonic that Gavito sang while teaching milonga steps, more or less it was si milonga quieres bailar , nunca tienes que parar . If milonga you want to dance, you should never have to stop and there was another mnemonic for tango , also Gavito caminare para arriba los pasos en el abrazo, cada vez . I will walk upwards the steps into the embrace, each time I could open a school of tango nuevo milonguero with this, saying it is the secret mantra for tango :) But I wont :) what Gavito really try to do was to light our burden , on the tango mnemonic he said why do you walk as if you were in a mechanical ladder of a subway always downwards ?? think upwards. And walk each step into the embrace, one at a time, my boys , one at a time, why such a hurry you are not going to any place, you are just in the place, already arrived, give yourselves a break ... alberto --- El mar 27-oct-09, macfro...@aol.com macfro...@aol.com escribió: De: macfro...@aol.com macfro...@aol.com Asunto: Re: [Tango-L] Truth in Tango Advertising Tango Detente Para: tango-l@mit.edu Fecha: martes, 27 de octubre de 2009, 11:51 am It's all about the marketing. There's a new ad in the tango magazines here for classes in Tango Nuevo Milonguero !!! Now what in the heck is that? I'm sure the phrase will attract folks who want to be on the cutting edge and/or perhaps to dance both traditional and nuevo. I suppose the promoters want to appeal to everybody. Was it that long ago when there was only tango? cherie http://tangocherie.blogspot.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l Yahoo! Cocina Encontra las mejores recetas con Yahoo! Cocina. http://ar.mujer.yahoo.com/cocina/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Truth in tango advertising
Vince wrote: Just saying it is Tango milonguero or classical tango music will not on its own create the sort of atmosphere you want. However, alternative milongas says very clearly to everyone what is allowed I think. Why not? This sjust eems to reflect your personal prejudices and preferences. Saying that it is classic tango, or milonguero tango is no less specific than calling it alternative. It is clear what they all mean. Traditional dancers don't attend the alternative milongas because they know what to expect. Nuevo dancers should do the same at traditional milongas and respect that their dancing is not appropriate and not expect to hear the same kind of music. A majority of tangoists are not Argentine, do not tango in Argentina on a regular basis and some never go. They are influenced on what happens around their local city. 90% of the tango workshops I have gone to in Australia have taught nuevo elements. This has nothing to do with nuevo or traditional styles or the country in which they are danced. The term originated long before nuevo came along to distinguish the original tango danced in Argentina from American ballroom tango. Milonguero, tango de salon, milonguero, nuevo, etc. are all Argentine tango. Although eventually nuevo and even traditional tango could change in character from what is danced in Argentina if they continue to develop in isolation, just as Finnish tango did. Cheers, Charles ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Translation Milonga Codes IV
Page 31 - Frederic Megret - Mc Gill University - Los códigos milongueros forman parte de la cultura tanguera. Y si continúa el proceso de licuación de las convenciones que dan encanto y marco al baile, estaremos mutilando un legado del cual muchos argentinos estamos orgullosos . (The Milonga Codes are part of the Tango Culture. Should the process of dilution of the conventions that frame and give charm to the dance continue, we will be mutilating a legacy of which many Argentines are proud of). The Milonga Codes have a function of identification and filtration or screening between the inside and the outside of the tango scene. They are markers for those that know them, and mysterious for those from the outside world (that would have a lot to do before it could find any logic). It comes to mind the scene in the movie Eyes wide shut in which Tom Cruise enters a mansion where a clandestine orgy is taking place, he is unaware that he provided the wrong password at the entrance and that this has marked him from the beginning. The transgressor ignores that he was identified as an intruder from the start. Certain rules are never explained, they become true codes in the sense that only a very attentive observation of customs in force at the milongas can allow elucidation. Milonga codes are then at the same time elements of clarity for the inside and of opacity for the outside, they create the certitude of the otherness of tango and make the tango community something totally separated and different from the rest of society. Best regards, Sergio Le Code des milongas e son é ude posen égalemen la ques ion des rappor s du collec if au par iculier e inversemen . En réali é, on peu souligner une cer aine priori é on ologique e a iologique du général sur le par iculier, du collec if sur le couple, e du couple sur l’individu. Le social précède le couple, au sens où le ango n’a jamais e is é e ne pourrai e is er au remen que socialemen , de la même manière que le couple domine l’individuel, au sens où il es presque absurde d’imaginer un ango dansé seul. En ermes norma ifs, l’on peu faire ou ce que l’on veu _ Windows 7: It helps you do more. Explore Windows 7. http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen3:102009 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango Detente
--- On Tue, 10/27/09, RonTango ronta...@rocketmail.com wrote: What do traditionalists need to do to let attendees know that at their milongas, one adheres to a line of dance, keeps feet on the floor, and generally respects the space of other dancers on the floor?... We don't enjoy playing tango police nearly as much as you think we do. We just want to dance in peace. ~~~ Trini wrote: Honestly, I don't understand this not being able to set the tone of the milonga or develop a reputation such that standards of behavior are not known. I really don't. Certainly not up to the point that it feels as if one is trying to keep people away... I've never had a problem like this...I don't feel a need to separate out people who do social nuevo steps at our local milongas...Perhaps the approach should focus on what the milonga organizer stands for, what his/her image needs to be, and that should be strong enough on its own... As much as I might agree with Trini, clearly Ron perceives a problem, a conflict in need of resolution. So if we take his question at face value: What do traditionalists need to do?... - we might refer to strategies used in the past at milongas in Buenos Aires to control attendees' behavior. I once saw a sign posted at the El Arranque afternoon milonga, mentioning a dress code requiring slacks for men. Some Buenos Aires milongas back in the last century would have signs saying (roughly translated) Cortes and Quebradas prohibited (cortes and quebradas were tango moves that were considered scandalous by some at the time, and unfit for nice girls to have to endure at a dance). So one approach might be to pick some nuevo moves or inconsiderate behaviors that from the organizer's perspective cause problems to other dancers, and prohibit them with a sign near the door, where the money will be taken. To avoid misunderstanding, perhaps include in the sign some photos showing the prohibited moves and behaviors. If necessary, offenders could simply be offered a refund of the entrada and requested to leave - not fun, I know, but probably only necessary once or twice before word gets around a relatively small tango community. I would think that a simple and obvious step like this would go a very long way to directly solving the problem as it's defined here. On the other hand, milongas (and tango communities in general) are social networks whose collective behavior can be very difficult to predict. Here's a cautionary note concerning such direct action (and its unforeseen consequences): You make what you defend against, and by Your own defense against it is it real And inescapable... - A Course in Miracles All the best, Brian Dunn Dance of the Heart www.danceoftheheart.com Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
