Re: [Tango-L] SA- Neuvo Theory vs Practice: Creating a Social
--- On Mon, 12/14/09, Tony Rathburn wrote: > i'm amused by the religious fervor... > attempting to protect the sanctity... > of tango milonguero... > from the influences of change... I've been making a lot of noise about obnoxious tango nuevo dancers on this list, but as I've said before, I'm not a purist. I don't care exactly what steps someone else is doing, so long as they have good behavior in the ronda. Why am I complaining about obnoxious nuevo dancers and not obnoxious dancers in general? The difference is that nobody considers obnoxious traditional dancers to be cool or admirable or trend-setters or worthy of imitation; they're just crappy dancers. > dance the dance... > that you enjoy... > > but don't expect me... > to dance your dance... Fine by me. So long as you don't cut across the line of dance, don't go against the line of dance, don't lead your partner to kick me or my partner, and don't try to find out just how close you can come to me without colliding -- we'll get along just fine. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo Theory vs Practice: Creating a Social Nuevo, plus my pet dancefloor peeves
--- On Mon, 12/14/09, Alexis Cousein wrote: > Simply point out that > a) he's being rude Yeah, I've done that once or twice. More often I just give cold looks to the guys stepping against the line of dance. Maybe I should be more vocal. I don't want the speedboats of the world to go on thinking that everything is OK. I've written to a couple of festival organizers about the lack of floorcraft at their festivals. One said only, "Yeah, I see it too" without elaboration. The other suggested there was nothing he could do about it. Well, I guess it's up to me, then. > a move that reminds people of an olympic hammer throw. Thanks for the laugh. I once saw a step which I imagined was a place-kick as in American football. (I guess it was a linear voleo of some kind.) ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] New entry fee into Argentina
Actually, the fee is exactly what the US charges for Argentines to apply for a visa to visit the US. This fee is not refundable if the visa is denied and it is done without any explanation for the denial. Should the applicant choose to appeal, they must pay another $131 to submit a new application. The usual reason for denial is the belief by some bureaucrat that the person might not intend to come back so they must show that they have sufficient assets in local banks and family and obligations ( such as a job) to which they must return. Nowwould you be willing to book a flight to Argentina with the possibility that you might be denied a visa just because you 'look like you might overstay your visa'? I know US Citizens who have overstayed their original visas by five years. This is not so much "getting you coming and going" as it is "tit for tat" IMHO. Visas are being denied to Argentines who have had three previous trips to the US for tourism, who have property in Buenos Aires, who have jobs and family there. These more stringent requirements were instituted during the big financial crisis in Argentina which was close to the 9/11 attacks during which many rules and regs were passed without much foresight. I recently had to get visas for India and China. They both took over 60 days and about $80-$120 to acquire. Why can't we just all get along? Nancy --- On Mon, 12/14/09, Tango22 wrote: From: Tango22 Subject: [Tango-L] New entry fee into Argentina To: tango-l@mit.edu Date: Monday, December 14, 2009, 6:57 PM "Michael" wrote - The Argentine government begins charging Americans an ENTRY fee into the country. Americans already have to pay to leave the country. Now you have to pay to enter. This is the epitome of the expression "getting you coming and going. Another view We are eternally grateful to Argentina for the gift of part of its rich culture, Tango music and dance. If it helps the people, we, from a wealthy nation, are happy to contribute. It is no fun living on the street when you are 8 years old, even if a passing tourist sees it as part of the rich tapestry of life. If you want to help some more, you could organise one annual milonga to contribute to the welfare of underprivileged children in and around Buenos Aires. It's called putting your money where your mouth is. www.paralosninos.net. John ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] New entry fee into Argentina
"Michael" wrote - The Argentine government begins charging Americans an ENTRY fee into the country. Americans already have to pay to leave the country. Now you have to pay to enter. This is the epitome of the expression "getting you coming and going. Another view We are eternally grateful to Argentina for the gift of part of its rich culture, Tango music and dance. If it helps the people, we, from a wealthy nation, are happy to contribute. It is no fun living on the street when you are 8 years old, even if a passing tourist sees it as part of the rich tapestry of life. If you want to help some more, you could organise one annual milonga to contribute to the welfare of underprivileged children in and around Buenos Aires. It's called putting your money where your mouth is. www.paralosninos.net. John ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] The Structure of Tango
If you want to really understand the structure of Tango I suggest that you purchase the excellent book by Joaquin Amenabar. http://www.joaquinamenabar.com/ Mr Amenabar is touring Germany, Austria, Italy and Lebanon early in 2010, before returning to Australia mid-year. His workshops are very popular and not to be missed for those interested in dancing social Tango at a high level. I doubt that the long wait at the start of each song has anything to do with music. You can't hear a thing during the customary "chatting- up" time. Best wishes, John > Most tangos don't. > > E.g. I just relistened to the last set I played and found intros on > only > 5% of the tangos. I think that's pretty representative of what's > played by > trad DJs in Argentina and Europe. > > Agreed 100%. But you don't start to dance ploughing your way through a > field of still stationary dancers after ANY beat of a song. It comes > from > the floor, not the music. E.g. in packed Lo de Celia people don't > start > moving until after 30-60s, regardless of whether the track has an > intro. > > -- > Chris ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] New entry fee into Argentina
On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 11:21 AM, Michael wrote: > The Argentine government begins charging Americans an ENTRY fee into the > country. Americans already have to pay to leave the country. Now you have to > pay to enter. This is the epitome of the expression "getting you coming and > going. > > http://www.argentinepost.com:80/2009/12/argentina-to-charge-americans-an-airport-entry-fee.html Whenever you see idiocy such as this, you invariably find that it is a direct reprisal against the bs that the United States government forces upon visitors to the US. Any complaints from Americans should be addressed to the US government, not the Argentine. Huck, "who's about had it up to here with Washington" ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] SA- Neuvo Theory vs Practice: Creating a Social
--- On Mon, 12/14/09, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote: > Otherwise, you can just agree to disagree. Agree that > your individual experiences differ and that you've reached > different conclusions. By the way, this comment applies to Ron, as well as, his critics. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] SA- Neuvo Theory vs Practice: Creating a Social
Tony et al, Susana Miller is very Argentine. She's not an American. Many only report bits and pieces (that whole selective perception and retention thing) of what she says. Sorta' like saying "tango is a walking dance". There's more to it than that. But I think you're missing one of the points about tango's evolution. How much can I incorporate swing moves into tango and still realistically call it "tango"? At what point does it become swing? Chicho saw this and in his interview mentions that tango could become more modern dance than tango with all of new dancers coming in who don't understand tango's roots. It would be shortsighted for people to think that tango can't evolve into a different dance form in the same way that Finnish tango did. In fact, a very well-known and respected dancer recently told me how surprised she was when she traveled abroad for the first time (about 15 or so years ago) and found out that different countries had their own version of tango. French dancers would show her their French tango and acknowledged that it differed from Argentine Tango. A pair of Filippino dancers showed her steps of their Phillippine tango. Clearly they weren't afraid of acknowledging their cultural heritage. I perfectly understand why some people might want to define their milongas in a limited way to prevent local customs from changing the milongas too much, and it's their right to do so. If one doesn't like it, then just don't go. I can't believe this argument still continues. It's quite obvious that Ron's experience concerning nuevo dancers have been quite negative. Sitting here typing arguments about it is not going to change his experiences. He's asked for video proof - a reasonable request. If you want to change Ron's mind, then he needs to experience it differently than how he currently has. Otherwise, you can just agree to disagree. Agree that your individual experiences differ and that you've reached different conclusions. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] SA- Neuvo Theory vs Practice: Creating a Social
spending my time... the past few months... in Buenos Aires... living in the Abasto neighborhood... where Gardel was raised... this weekend... carlos gardel's birthday... recognition of the past... celebrated in the now... amazed by attitudes... of people wanting to recreate... "the feel of a BA milonga"... which one? which night? which year? which decade? i have no standing in the tango community... other than as a participant... nothing i can say... is based on my reputation... it can only be considered on it's merits... i prefer it that way... my thoughts... are simply my thoughts... an opinion... based on my choices... my logic... what i like... not... on what i consider 'right'... for anyone else... others... attempting to enforce... their version of style preference... as 'right'... making everyone... who doesn't comply... 'wrong' and as with most enforcers... purveyors of intolerance... unfettered by facts... bold statements... imposition of opinion... by volume... and passive aggressive intimidation... i'm amused by the religious fervor... attempting to protect the sanctity... of tango milonguero... from the influences of change... tango milonguero... a term coined by susana miller... an american... in the mid-1990's... while assisting Pedro 'Tete' Rusconi... interesting that milonguero style... does not actually reflect... the dancing of the 'golden age' music... that these same adherents claim... as 'traditional' tango music... milonguero tango... as i understand it... very close embrace... limited independent movement... small steps... syncopated rhythmic steps... actually based on... petitero... canquero style... common in the downtown clubs... of the 1950's... not the late 30's... and 40's... of the golden age music... interesting... that the tango de barrio.. of the 50's... emphasized longer steps... a more elegant flow... more complex figures... a flexible embrace... more complicated footwork... wondering... celebrating the birthday of Carlos Gardel... who died in a plane crash... 24 June 1935... wondering... what he would have thought... of the evolution of the tango he knew... as it morphed into the 'golden age'... i have no idea... what this neighborhood was like... 100 years ago... when Gardel was coming of age... i doubt the shops... that bear his name and image... accurately portray the story either... interesting... that the mid-90's... was the timing for the term... tango milonguero... to enter the lexicon... a time when Tete's generation... was watching... the rebirth of tango... with leads like... Gustavo Naveira... Chicho Frumbloi... Fabian Salas... Sebastian Arce... Pablo Veron... Norberto "El Pulpo" Esbrez... are these the dangerous leads... who should be banned from dancing socially... who are inappropriate... unrepresentative of tango... 'as it's done in Buenos Aires'? is the style of current gymnasts... not really gymnastics... because of the influence of... bela karolyi... olga korbut... nadia comaneci? i have no opinion... on Susana Miller's classes... or style... i hope to have the privilege... of working with her... at some future point in time... simply... to share the ideas... to expand my options... i respect her reputation... but... i simply have no experience with her... hmmm... i like evolution... continuing to grow... understanding the past... appreciating it... as the foundation for today... with an eye on inventing tomorrow... my point... to all of those who want to push... what tango 'is supposed to be'... instead of 'this is how i prefer to dance'... is that tango is improvisation... and evolution... and... much... much... more... to deny evolution... is to deny improvisation... dance the dance... that you enjoy... but don't expect me... to dance your dance... i like 'new'... even when it makes me uncomfortable... i like revisiting the past... places i've been... that i enjoy... but... i don't want to always repeat... those same sets of experiences... i'm spoiled... in a choice between... the security of replaying the past... of known outcomes... however pleasant... and inventing the future... laughing on the journey... intrigued by what lies ahead... no contest... let's dance... and enjoy the adventure of creating... to deny evolution... is to deny improvisation... i take lessons... primarily from women... and have consistently asked them... to make me someone... they would truly enjoy dancing with... not just someone... they would tolerate dancing with... not to have them show me a particular step... or trick... i want to adapt my lead... to the music... to the mood... and to my follower... i like to listen... as well as lead... yes... i have a connection with... the followers i dance with... it may not be the same... as the one you want to create... the connection i want to create... varies... follower to follower... tanda to tanda... song to song... i have no desire... to dance like any other lead... i have
Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo Theory vs Practice: Creating a Social Nuevo, plus my pet da
>> But regardless of that, you don't start to dance ploughing your way >> through a field of still stationary dancers after the second beat >> of a song. >> > > Agreed 100%. But you don't start to dance ploughing your way through a > field of still stationary dancers after ANY beat of a song. It comes from > the floor, not the music. E.g. in packed Lo de Celia people don't start > moving until after 30-60s, regardless of whether the track has an intro. > > All true. However, there is nothing to prevent me from starting to move before the 30-60 sec as long as I do it in place without disturbing anybody. Whoever moves first is doing precisely that. I was at Lo Celia a few days ago. Gordon > -- > Chris > ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango Tower of Babel - Different Language, Different Dance
RonTango wrote: > Words like 'connection' and 'social dancing' have different meanings for > different people. > > The problem stems in part from two groups with very different perceptions > laying > claim to the same name 'tango'. As far as connection is concerned, I know all the different aspects this can encompass. Again, you're insisting that someone sits on *one* side of a fence you've just imagined. As far as "social dancing" is concerned, as far as I'm concerned, there's also a continuum of conditions. Social tango means dancing socially without bothering the others, and adapting to circumstances. And there are indeed different circumstances - even within one milonga. Which means that trying to pigeon hole everything in two classes is futile. If you stubbornly refuse to adapt to circumstances yet still insist to dance, then you're not very good at dancing socially. > Many nuevoists say that nuevo is the evolution of tango. It is *an* evolution (i.e. a class of phenotypes forming a cluster), and a collection of elements that embed themselves in a tradition (unlike ballroom tango). It is not "the future" in the sense that anything else is going to go extinct. Anybody who has half a brain would know better than to claim it. Anyway, given it's a social dance how it will have evolved will only be clear in hindsight. > Many traditionalists would say nuevo is an evolution away from tango. That's a fundamentalist's point of view (and I'm not using the term pejoratively; it's just a pattern that you see very often in different contexts). > > Why can't you accept that nuevo is a new species with its own niche, > separate from tango (de salon)? > Because there is no clear divide until *you* draw a line in the sand. You have no authority to do so, and as I said there is absolutely *no* rationale for treating it as "a separate species", as there is shared habitat and cross-fertility between individuals. > One could take a cynical view and say that nuevo positions itself as > the heir apparent to tango Again, you are building a straw man. What I see on this list is exactly zero "nuevistos" claiming that what others dance is not tango or outdated, but a lot of people claiming that nuevo is somehow so "different" it's no longer tango. > Why do nuevoists feel the need to share the same floor with tango de salon? > Duh! Because they might actually enjoy dancing different styles, like the music that's played, share celebrating a tradition and even like to see others that don't dance the same style while they're dancing? Where am I supposed to dance, in your world? I'm not a nuevo dancer; I'm not an anti-nuevo dancer either. Is it going to be "if you're not with us, you're against us"? Should those nuevo parties you advocate materialise, am I going to be thrown out if I dance a close and closed embrace? > This argument doesn't go away. Nuevoists want to be on the same floor with > traditionalists. I think we should go towards "one man, one tango". Let's have different floors for people with a common axis and for people who have two independent axes, let's institute rules about the minimum (or maximum) separation between the leader and the follower at milonga X, let's have different milongas for people who like music only from the twenties,... That's going to do a lot of good. If you want tango to die and become irrelevant, that's the way to go. In Flanders, we have two cities: one where organisers live with others in a spirit of tolerance, and one where each teacher knows the One True Way and segregates his pupils from all the others. Guess which scene is thriving? > - Nuevoists want to intimidate traditionalists, driving them off the floor > and perhaps away from 'tango' in their community so that nuevo can lay > sole claim to 'tango'. Sure. They even have a secret book about that - the Protocols of the Elders of Nuevo. If that isn't a conspiracy theory, then I haven't seen many. > - Nuevoists want a conspicuous presence everyone so they can recruit new > dancers. Ah - now nuevo dancers are all teachers, and non-nuevo teachers are *never* conspicuous in sometimes jarring attempts at recruiting? > Outside Argentina, flashy dancing is effective in recruitment; I lament the bias towards flashy dancing (if it supposes a lack of attention to musicality and connection) just as much as any other. "Nuevo", though, isn't necessarily that. And to make the same point again, if flashy dancing is effective in recruitment in the US, it says a bit about the audience too, not only about the teachers. > the subtlety of tango de salon is lost on the naive dancer. Pardon me for saying, but the subtlety of tango de salon is lost on more than just "nuevo" dancers. I'm sure some aspects of it are still lost on me after twenty years, and many aspects I now clearly feel in my blood were totally lost on me for ten years and others for eighteen years. > > Just face the reality, Nue
[Tango-L] Tango Tower of Babel - Different Language, Different Dance
It is apparent there is a Tower of Babel (or is it 'Tower of Babble'?) in the tango world. Words like 'connection' and 'social dancing' have different meanings for different people. The problem stems in part from two groups with very different perceptions laying claim to the same name 'tango'. Nuevo is very creative. Based on tango, it has developed in new directions. It takes a lot of talent to learn it and teach it. But in its focus on movement possibilities, its exploration of new territory, it has left drifted away from the focus in tango de salon on connection with partner, music, and other dancers on the floor. This is not something I made up; I am just restating what the milongueros who have danced tango their whole lives say. Many nuevoists say that nuevo is the evolution of tango. Many traditionalists would say nuevo is an evolution away from tango. Why can't you accept that nuevo is a new species with its own niche, separate from tango (de salon)? One could take a cynical view and say that nuevo positions itself as the heir apparent to tango because 'tango' has name recognition and it is easier to market nuevo under a popular known name than to spend time and effort in gaining name recognition for 'nuevo'. Sometimes what appears at first to be cynical is reality. Why do nuevoists feel the need to share the same floor with tango de salon? This argument doesn't go away. Nuevoists want to be on the same floor with traditionalists. Traditionalists want to have the floor to themselves. Again from a cynical perspective, there are several popular explanations for this: - Nuevoists want to intimidate traditionalists, driving them off the floor and perhaps away from 'tango' in their community so that nuevo can lay sole claim to 'tango'. - Nuevoists want a conspicuous presence everyone so they can recruit new dancers. Outside Argentina, flashy dancing is effective in recruitment; the subtlety of tango de salon is lost on the naive dancer. Just face the reality, Nuevo is a different dance. It is separate from tango de salon in Buenos Aires. Why do nuevoists continuously try to impose nuevo on tango de salon in the rest of the world? One request. In future responses, please refrain from personal attacks. Stick to the issues. Don't attack the person expressing different ideas. Ron - Original Message > From: Alexis Cousein > YOU, on the other hand, do appear to be overly sensitive (since you perceive > an > attack on all members of the group where there is none -- note the singular > "a traditionalist" in the quoted message, which clearly tells you what is > meant > in propositional logic, and no, it doesn't mean "every") > And YOU weren't building a Feindbild? > Perhaps YOU can't fathom someone dancing nuevo who has > that type > of connection or dances to music, but that's simply lack of imagination (and > a > lack of > curiosity: I haven't seen YOU ask *how* that would work, simply imply that it > doesn't). > > Perhaps that's because YOU are cursed with a particularly egregious local > community of > "nuevo" idiots, but even then, that doesn't allow YOU to generalise in any > logically > valid way. > > Perhaps YOU don't have a willingness to understand anything but YOUR own > world > view (what a smug reply!) > > I thought we were having a productive argument, but YOUR last reply is simply > nothing but empty > name calling and attempts at painting something in a negative light in the > most > unreasonable ways > possible, and a consistent attempt at doing nothing but polarising the debate. > > In other words, it's no longer *reasoned* debate. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo Theory vs Practice: Creating a Social Nuevo, plus my pet da
Chris John Jordan wrote: > Alexis > >> The songs have intros for a reason. > > Most tangos don't. > They have a section that can easily be identified as *some* sort of intro. At least it's usually clear to me. But regardless of that, you don't start to dance ploughing your way through a field of still stationary dancers after the second beat of a song. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo Theory vs Practice: Creating a Social Nuevo
Jack Dylan wrote: > Nuevoists have no emotional connection to be disturbed, I assume you know that from experience, having probed the brain of everyone dancing nuevo [ darn, everyone in Practica X needs to wear a tin foil hat ]? Apart from stating that as a fact, any supporting evidence or arguments? I'm not sure there's such a thing as "a nuevoist" (except as defined by someone who craves to "belong" to a not-the-nuevoist-group as a mental crutch). I usually am a neo-platonist in real life, but I'm not that rabid. I was also unaware that a lack of emotional connection was a property of any single style (if only it were...) > Is it possible for nuevoists to understand that? Understanding the logic that leads you to that assertion is something I confess evades me. But then, I do tend to stick to propositional logic. I assume that makes me a "nuevoist*"? -- *Ugh - why not use the more euphonic neuvisto? ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo Theory vs Practice: Creating a Social Nuevo, plus my pet dancefloor peeves
Sandhill Crane wrote:
> --- On Fri, 12/11/09, Brian Dunn wrote:
>
>> This lack of understanding is evident in the idea that
>> colgadas and volcadas (for example) can be taught as simple
>> "tricks" without reference to connection skills with your
>> partner and awareness of the dimensions of the available space.
>
> Maybe these steps are not taught as tricks, but they are
> certainly learned as tricks.
Not necessarily a valid statement *in general*.
> You know this and I know this, but the guys for whom this
> is true can't see it; they need someone else to point it out.
>
No argument from me. But you usually won't achieve that by
going on an anti-nuevo (or even merely anto-colgada/volcada
crusade). They simply won't listen.
Simply point out that
a) he's being rude
b) if he can't perform that step without being rude on
dance floor X (by whatever measures are necessary), he
should either practice or refrain from inflicting damage
("put up or shut up" in another guise).
c) There's more satisfaction in getting a volcada, colgada
or even boleo just right, with *just* enough movement to
feel it unambiguously (and in the case of a boleo, with feet
barely separating). If he can pull those off, that'll impress
the audience more than a move that reminds people of an olympic
hammer throw.
If he then still thinks he's entitled to mow down other couples, well,
that suggests he needs a swift kick in the butt to free him from
his culture of entitlement.
> It's up to the teachers to influence which
> path their students take.
No argument from me. On the other hand, you can't blame the teacher
only, because I've seen a lot of people resist attempts at
reining them in (and demanding the teacher go on to more fancy
stuff even when they don't get the basics right). It's partly
a culture thing in the audience, too, and as I said, sadly it
predated "nuevo".
[off-topic]
As I'm getting tired of that "nuevo destroys dance floors" mantra,
why not discuss my pet peeves on the dance floor.
Let's go back to bashing stepping back into the line of dancing
with a large step (which can actually be forward depending on
your current orientation!) without knowing whether you
have room, something which plagues all styles and more dance
floors than egregious nuevo dancers (at least here).
Note: some fundamentalists think that banning steps back
of the leader is enough. It isn't, unless your shoulders
are always aligned the same way with respect to the line of dance,
and if you don't understand the difference, you need to practice
and be alert to things, rather than rely on dogmas to save your
behind (or more correctly that of the followers of other couples).
My second pet peeve: if you have half the dance floor in front
of you and everyone crowded behind you, you aren't flowing with
the ronda. I don't care what *you* think music X from Biaggi demands
as far as forward movement on the floor, the rest of the dance floor
isn't agreeing with you. If you compound the problem by also
dashing sideways madly in a windscreen wiping motion, preventing
everyone to unstick the mess you made, you're a real pain.
My third pet peeve: don't start dashing ahead when the intro
of the song is playing, making everyone else (who's just
exploring the music and the connection) instantly feel as
if they're bowling pins. The songs have intros for a reason.
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Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo Theory vs Practice: Creating a Social Nuevo
RonTango wrote:
>> "Self-fulfilling prophecy" has a ring of truth to me. From the discussion,
>> I picture such a traditionalist getting "disrupted" at the first sight of a
>> colgada at a range of twenty yards, because of what's "probably going to
>> happen when I get near that nuevo guy" - then looking for someone ELSE to
>> blame when his lack of focus on his own tango doesn't fulfill his partner's
>> tango happiness.
>>
>
> Yes, tango milonguero dancers as a group are overly sensitive neurotics.
Straw man. Nobody claims that all tango milonguero dancers are overly sensitive
neurotics.
You, on the other hand, do appear to be overly sensitive (since you perceive an
attack on all members of the group where there is none -- note the singular
"a traditionalist" in the quoted message, which clearly tells you what is meant
in propositional logic, and no, it doesn't mean "every")
I don't think you're neurotic, just for the record.
> We appreciate your insight into our thoughts and character.
Again, the use of "we" and "our" does betray "us-vs-them" thinking (and means
that you
somehow presume to talk for a group).
And you weren't building a Feindbild?
> Nor can one claim that what one is dancing is social tango unless one
> understands what social tango is.
And what is that supposed to convey? That neither Brian nor I understand what
social tango is
?
For the record, I'm not necessarily a "nuevo" dancer, and I frequently enjoy
close embrace
dancing (even with a common axis for leader and follower) on crowded dance
floors to
traditional music (though in staunch contrast to the most radical
traditionalistas
I consider some tangos from the 40s as danceable, and don't consider that
d'Arienzo
betrayed anyone in what he produced just after WWII). As a DJ I played very
traditional
as well (though I again confess the world didn't end in 1930 for me, but in
1949, with
the odd 1955 recording thrown in).
But I won't let anyone thow mud on entire groups of people or cry heresy
without reacting.
Drag nuevo through the mud and I'll come defending it (though I won't defend
any of its excesses,
just as I won't defend any of the excesses of conservatism - by which I mean
conservatism
in itself is not a defect, just an attitude, but some of the excesses are
defects).
If an entire group on T-L came out and started deriding the "old guard" as
boring and not
understanding what they are doing just because they lack nuevo's analytical
framework,
and laughing at the fact they're not dancing the fad-du-jour move, I'd call
them to task as well.
> This points out the lack of understanding of nuevoists.
Well, it would have been good to actually define the terms you were using, if
you wanted
to avoid confusion about what we thought you meant with "connection". Yes, I
confess:
I do not have divinatory powers. Obviously, that means that despite not seeing
myself
as a dedicated "nuevo" dancer (I was dancing well before "nuevo" became a
lightning
rod), I am one.
> The connection we are talking about is the emotional connection between
> partners
> and the shared connection with the music, both of which emanate from the
> embrace,
> not the physical connection per se.
That doesn't change the point one bit - what Brian and I wrote applies just as
well to
that type of connection. Perhaps you can't fathom someone dancing nuevo who has
that type
of connection or dances to music, but that's simply lack of imagination (and a
lack of
curiosity: I haven't seen you ask *how* that would work, simply imply that it
doesn't).
Perhaps that's because you are cursed with a particularly egregious local
community of
"nuevo" idiots, but even then, that doesn't allow you to generalise in any
logically
valid way.
There's also nothing special about the "nuevo" connection, except typically (in
uncrowded
dance floors) more room. The Big Divide in the types of connections are those
between
a connection with shared axis and a connection with a frame but two independent
axes
(which can be danced with a very close embrace as well). And traditional dancers
use both.
> This vertical span allows elevation of the feet high off the floor ("to the
> ceiling").
"To the ceiling" was meant to allow the rest of the body some room. But thanks
for the straw man.
> Great for exhibition, not for social dancing. Instead try one square meter
> within 10 cm of the floor.
I assume that means that traditional social dancers are all shorter than 10cm,
or are all thinner than
10cm, lying on the floor huddled in a fetal position?
> Tango is a feeling that is danced (shared), not movement that is danced
> (shared).
> Perhaps this nuevo is another dance.
>
Perhaps you don't have a willingness to understand anything but your own world
view (what a smug reply!)
I thought we were having a productive argument, but your last reply is simply
nothing but empty
name calling and attempts at painting something in a negative light in t
