Re: [Tango-L] Abusing the available space
On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 7:31 PM, Alexis Cousein wrote: > > Perhaps in your neck of the woods you can see a correlation > and people use nuevo as a sorry excuse (i.e. claim "freeedom" > to stand on their rights by sitting on those of others) > but I don't think you see the same thing at, say Practica X. > > > i witnessed a woman being hit in the chest by a stray boleo in Prac X -- Yours in dance dementia, Niki ( http://tangotrails.blogspot.com ) ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] My Definition of Tango Nuevo
hbboog...@aol.com wrote: > I’ve put a lot of thought into what I think tango nuevo is and I finally > figured out what I believe identifies nuevo. It’s not the figures It’s > just different footwork and unconventional movements. What I see in nuevo > that > ’s different from other styles of tango is the leader stepping without > closing the feet standing usually in a squatting position always looking > down > at the floor with a lot of arm movement. > I also see this occasionally in other tango styles but that’s just bad > dancing they should know better. The difference is this must be how nuevo is > taught because everyone I’ve seen dancing nuevo dances this way. Which again shows you we're all talking about something slightly different. That's absolutely *not* how I've seen "everyone" dance nuevo. To me nuevo is indeed about "unconventional movements" in the sense that it's a framework of analysing exactly what you can do from a given position, and a willingness to break out of the obvious (the move that you'd do while on autopilot). If I'd have some things that would define it, it's more "alteraciones" than in more traditional tango (which does mean you need more floorcraft to avoid stepping against the direction of the ronda), more novel ways to go from gyrating moves to linear moves, and a lot more moves where leader and follower are "wrongfooted" against each other for a brief (but led) moment. In this, nuevo does require you to adjust to different types of frames, closed, open, with chest parallel and at right angles, so there are certainly styles that limit the moves you can do in such a way that you cannot dance anything "nuevo". Colgadas are certainly part of it, and I don't agree with Shakruth that it needs to destroy technique for an entire generation of dancers (as long as it's made clear that colgada is not normal posture, but something *exceptional*, the differences are made crystal clear, and that people know that the exception shouldn't be the rule). Back sacadas are certainly "part" of it as well, even though they predate the framework by a lot (but they're actually an adorno from the fundamental thing that happens, given that you can do the exact same rather surprising transition without ever doing the back sacada at all). Of course, the best "nuevo" dances are those where the more surprising elements are used as spices are: sparingly, because if everything is "a surprise" it's no longer a surprise. A good nuevo move is one that leaves the audience (and sometimes the follower) wondering what on earth happened for that fraction of a moment and leaves them to wonder if they dreamt it all, not a constant display of fireworks. If the entire dance is unconventional, that'll give everyone (including the dancers) indigestion. Personally, I don't like too much bravado *even* in performance dancing. If I feel the urge to hold the "10 points" card for technical performance up, then I know they've gone too far. One of the reasons that you can't do "too much" all of the time is the music. The music certainly has its dramatic moments, but it also breathes and flows, and you MUST be connecting to it as well. It doesn't mean you have to do big steps, and it certainly doesn't mean you have to look to the floor (that's more a performance dance effect parroted by people who don't know better) and it certainly doesn't mean that you have to do "a lot of arm movement", given that many of these unconventional transitions require having adjusted to a more open frame in which your arms are your messengers (you lead "desde el alma" but your partner hasn't got a snowball's chance in hell of guessing if you let your arms wander around aimlessly). And if you don't go through a closed feet position between steps, stomping around like a tango godzilla, then I wonder exactly how you're going to maintain control when your centre of gravity is flailing around, so I don't think that defines any style either. Perhaps Shakruth has a point: what masquerades as "nuevo" is just stage performance dancing (or even downright bad dancing technique) in inappropriate settings, which just uses the "new and improved" label as an excuse. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Bad teachers produce bad dancers?
Hi there, I know, this might sund funny, coming from a teacher, but I just have to comment on this sentence in the mail of hbboog...@aol.com (Who's behind this Alias anyway?): "... I do know that it (bad teachers) produces bad dancers that disrupt the floor for the rest of us" Actually I am not so sure about this. I've seen a lot of good dancers, who only took classes with the worst teachers and quite some awful dancers, who had access to great instruction. To me, the statistical relation between good instruction and becoming a good dancer does not seem to be very significant. Unfortunately. I don't say, that is hurts, to take classes with good teachers, 'cause they can give you great ideas and infos, but you won't become a good dancer just by this. You have to take into consideration talent, (good) taste, (common) sense, sensibility, experience (with other dances or sports), age, pysical fitness, (good) dance partners, (good) perception, (high) level of Tango-community, reason and of course (the right) practice. ... So please, don't blame it all on the teachers! If you are intelligent enough and think about what you're doing, you might even learn from real bad teachers. I did! ;-) Happy New Year, Melina MELINA SEDO & DETLEF ENGEL www.tangodesalon.de www.youtube.com/tangodesalon www.facebook.com/tangodesalon ta...@tangodesalon.de ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Bad teachers produce bad dancers?
Melina Sedo & Detlef Engel wrote: > You have to take into consideration talent, (good) taste, (common) > sense, sensibility, experience (with other dances or sports), age, > pysical fitness, (good) dance partners, (good) perception, (high) > level of Tango-community, reason and of course (the right) > practice ...and humility. The moment you think you know everything about a particular subject is the moment you stop to improve. The problem is that that moment comes when you do understand it for 5% of the people, but 95% of the people think they're in that 5%. Personally I'm only more or less satisfied something when I *feel* the step and the energy just the way I feel it while I look at someone more accomplished. Not just the steps, but the way something breathes, how energy is stored and released, the exact timing of everything *within* one single step, and how it all plays with the music. On the rare moments that you can get that "this feels just right" experience, I rarely still have those "Oh my God! Yuck!" moments after someone videotapes me and I get to see the video. Often I *do* get those painful moments if I'm taped before I've actually become satisfied (even when other people think I'm doing just fine, the defects usually stick out like a sore thumb to me, and I feel like hitting myself over the head.) And yes, I can see that someone who's blind to these subtleties and has concrete cast in the ear will miss all that, but often people are blind and deaf through arrogance and lack of attention more than they are through "bad perception" in se. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Bad teachers produce bad dancers?
Alexis wrote: "...and humility." Damn right. My list was by no means final. ;-) Melina ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Definition of Nuevo
If I were to define nuevo, one of the distinguishing characteristics I'd include is the greater amount of training women need compared to classic tango. It's more athletic and requires more practice, more body awareness. Women really have to "get the joke" to do alterations, volcadas, colgadas, linear boleos. Women don't need so much the first time they're exposed to ganchos or boleos in the middle of a milonga. I know that there are men who will say that they've led an inexperienced woman to do, say, a volcada successfully. But I'm not talking once or twice. I'm talking 50 times, a hundred times, a thousand times. To the average woman, not just the young fit chicas. And by the average male dancer, not the superstars. I'm focusing on women because that's what the dance is supposed to focus on, right? The man leads the dance, but he adjusts a lot for the woman. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] colgadas- not so nuevo
Sharukh writes that colgadas are new. I believe they were done forever, in a smaller scale, anytime you have a stop (parada) and a passing over step (posada), there is a moment, however brief, where the follower is off axis. Particularly if you were in close embrace when you did this, as the woman has no space to stay completely on axis. All that was done recently in colgada was to exaggerate the passing over step. It can also be thought of as an amplified version of a turn in which the woman is maintained in one spot on one foot and the man walks around her, pivoting her. I forgot the Spanish word for that. The only difference for the colgada version is the distance of the body cores, requiring counterbalance, and the placement of the mans steps close and around her standing foot. To me, maybe the only innovation in nuevo is the use of soltadas, and the use of other body parts to lead, as chicho sometimes does, ie, the back, the shoulder. . but even there, there is some precedent in the old style of shadow dancing where the man was behind the woman, so chicho just innovated to have the woman behind the man for a few steps. Actually, even soltadas may not be so nuevo - there were probably stage dancers who transitioned between shadow doble and normal facing embraces within a single piece, thus creating a moment of soltada. There is nothing new under the sun, so sayeth Ecclesiastes. -Martin Nussbaum ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Abusing the available space
Valerie says:
Consider for a minute anyone you know who behaves responsibly. Did he
or she learn etiquette from a teacher? Probably not. Polite people
seem to come pre-packaged..
Probably did. The teacher is usually a parent.
The people with no navigation skills, watching their feet, rote
(figures) learned so they can't stop, even when they want to,
compulsive amateur "teachers" ("you're meant to do this" - if I was
subjected to this humiliation I would immediately leave the floor) and
the overblown male and female egos stand out like a beacon. Mostly
they are decent, polite people. Apart from the last, it is
substantially a teaching / learning problem, and even the last may be
moderated by a tactful teacher.
John
___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] bad teachers, bad dancers
What ever it takes, desire is one more trait But just one more comment. Something I would like to see all instructors do is. Good or bad. Teach a new person the basics before anything else. I've seen to many people who call them selves teachers, teach volcadas, colgatas, gauchos, to a person on their first night of lessons. Teach new people how to walk, find their balance, lead, or follow before going to the difficult steps. A medical student isn't given a scalpel in their first class. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Bad teachers produce bad dancers?
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. You can teach dancers tango, but you make them follow etiquette. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines Celebrating New Year's Eve in New York Melina Sedo & Detlef Engel wrote: You have to take into consideration talent, (good) taste, (common) sense, sensibility, experience (with other dances or sports), age, physical fitness, (good) dance partners, (good) perception, (high) level of Tango-community, reason and of course (the right) practice > > ...and humility. The moment you think you know everything about a > > particular subject is the moment you stop to improve. The problem is that > that moment comes when you do understand it for 5% of the people, but 95% > of the people think they're in that 5%. > > ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Bad teachers produce bad dancers?
> From: Michael > > You can teach dancers tango, but you make them follow etiquette. > Not sure how you can 'make' students do something but teachers should certainly teach etiquette and it should be part of EVERY SINGLE CLASS, at every level. And teachers should set the example. On YouTube I often see teachers doing a demo of the steps taught during the previous class and they're often going in all directions, rather than following the LOD. Not a good example, IMHO. Jack ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] bad teachers, bad dancers
> From: "timmyta...@aol.com" timmyta...@aol.com > I've seen to many people who call them selves teachers, teach volcadas, > colgatas, gauchos, to a person on their first night of lessons. > They may call themselves 'teachers', but they're not, IMHO. Jack ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango-L] The Definition of Tango Nuevo (1 of 2)
Shahrukh said: "And people who dance "nuevo" do so because they like the way it looks and/or the way it feels has a missing element for them." >From my observations, that explains why it seems so many women dance it in my community. There are plenty of Youtube clips of nuevo teachers showing their moves without anyone around them and therefore 'stretching' to occupy the available space. There are not any clips that I can find, of general nuevo dancers (or these teachers) dancing in a crowded milonga and thus disrupting the energy of the milonga. If there were, and they were more prominently broadcast, maybe it would be worthwhile? Vince In Melbourne Enjoying his break. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Who to blame for the "bad" dancers ?
If it was not for the renaissance of tango and in particular the fantasia shows and competitions in BsAs, would there be a nuevo tango following today? For those who read this list and want to preserve social tango dancing, maybe as promoters/organizers of festivals/milongas you should decline from having individual couples putting on demos* thus encouraging them to display the 'crowd pleasing steps' that are not strictly tango, that the crowd then feels obliged to learn. If a demo has to be held, have several couples dance on the floor at once, thus forcing them to restrain themselves and show a semblance of social dancing. But I guess there is no money for promoters in that. My 2c *For the record, these days, demos do not excite me as they once did: I tend to do something else when it is on. Vince In Melbourne Enjoying his break. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
