Re: [Tango-L] Cabaceo & SAYING "NO"
- Original Message > From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) patan...@yahoo.com From Sean. > These women need a serious reality check about their own abilities. > Agree. Many beginner ladies can get dances with good leaders and they soon have an inflated sense of their own ability. Thereafter, they often don't want to dance with other beginners, including their own classmates. > And the sub-par dancer aggressively pursuing the skilled dancer is far more >likely (90% or more) to be a woman than a man. Likewise, men are more >likely than women to be dancing with someone below their own ability. > This certainly corresponds with my observations. > So even though a man may be far above her level, he is still not good enough > - in her mind. > Agree again, especially after dancing with their teachers [as Sean also said]. These are the ladies who often end up sitting, not because they're turning down dances but because fewer and fewer men will ask her - including me. :-) > The women that I want to dance with manage to really dance, regardless of >the man. Even if the man is far less skilled than she. > My own partner is very good and, for various reasons, she often dances with men below her level, especially visitors. But she always enjoys her dances. It's often said that a person's true personality will be revealed in the milongas and I agree with that. Some women are just 'nicer' than others and, personally, I only dance with ladies that I like or think I will like, regardless of their dance ability. Jack ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Cabeceo
How do you get the waiter's > attention at a nice restaurant? Do you physically go into the kitchen > to retrieve him. > > Many/most waiters seem to be oblivious even to someone standing on the table waving both arms in the air. And Yes, I have resorted to a trip to the kitchen - which stirs up a hornets' nest - chefs seem to consider this a major afront. It results in more than enough attention. Fortunately tangueras are more perceptive and the slightest nod will suffice. Likewise waiters in BsAs - who, I think, turn waitering into an art form. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Cabeceo
Tom Stermitz said: > > Why are the lights turned down low? > Notions of romantic lighting? In some places the lights could be so low that the candles on the tables are (almost) brighter. > > How can you see the dances? > You need to have one of these: http://tinyurl.com/2f3e7lr > > How do you get the waiter's attention at a nice restaurant? > Not a problem unless it is a certain European country restaurant. You know which one being an American :) > > Do you physically go into the kitchen to retrieve him? > I would not like to enter some kitchens to avoid disappointment. Vince In Melbourne ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Cabeceo
On Oct 19, 2010, at 2:59 AM, Vince Bagusauskas wrote: > On the matter of cabeceo in general, I doubt it would work at many > milongas > in Australia, because either for seating arrangement or because of > the very > turned down light levels. And oh some women who take their glasses > off for > the night :) > > Vince > In Melbourne Why are the lights turned down low? How can you see the dances and the women eagerlly looking at you for dances? The cabaceo isn't a strange ritual. How do you get the waiter's attention at a nice restaurant? Do you physically go into the kitchen to retrieve him. Tom Stermitz c: 303-725-5963 http://www.tango.org Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Cabaceo & SAYING "NO"
> As for this whole card/cabaceo issue, I wonder if it is all over a single > girl who can't say "no"? Gosh, how naive I was to think we managed to close this part of the discussion. No, if you want to point fingers, point towards me. I can't count the times I've heard followers complaining about difficult-to-refuse guys with whom they would really not want to dance; and although I never claimed this to be a Pittsburgh phenomenon, yes, it happens here too. This made me think about how they could handle the problem and tried to come up with a solution which (a) could plausibly reduce refusal stress, (b) does not lead to a permanent drop in the number of wanted dances, and (c) does not count as policing of the community because it does not force rules on other disinterested followers or leaders from above. It seemed to me that adopting a personal cabeceo policy could be a solution, but only if (a) sufficiently many of the sought-out followers of a community take an interest so that they are not getting isolated, (b) this group can make it clear and credible that they are adopting the policy to leaders so to reduce the chance of misunderstanding, and (c) all leaders get a chance to learn the new ways before they potentially get refused on its basis. The card and the idea that it should be launched at a given date was merely a vehicle to facilitate these goals, I'm sure there are alternatives. I thought it's a nice touch to add waiting until the music starts. When I asked followers and friends - an admittedly biased sample - for opinions I only met glowing eyes (I certainly don't see women frequently turning down dances in Pittsburgh, but maybe I'm just not attentive enough), and I even had friends who were enthusiastic enough to start to organize other followers to implement it. And so I made the (with hindsight) mistake to attach one of these emails, which I found particularly well written, to mine as opposed to reiterate the idea in my own words. All this you know well; if you skipped over this in my first email then also for the reason because I explained you (Trini) so during a recent milonga. I really don't mind if the idea turns out to be psychologically inadequate or socially unfit for this or that reason, either shown by a cogent argument, or by practice, or by a plausibility argument that even an attempt to put it in practice is too risky. I take arguments seriously (professional bias) but I don't take them personally. But to repeatedly suggest that followers find an idea interesting *because* they can't say no (because they don't respect themselves enough, need to grow up etc etc) is a completely unnecessary ad hominem and, especially in a context where the main issue is thinking about how to reduce stress to make the milonga experience more pleasant, a distasteful one. Even though it turns out to be effective in discouraging implementation and is a practical demonstration of Trini's claim about the influence of respected local authorities on the community, I'd still hope it is unintentional. -- Balazs Gyenis Department of History and Philosophy of Science, University of Pittsburgh 1017 Cathedral of Learning, Pittsburgh, PA 15260, USA http://www.pitt.edu/~gyepi ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Is it just me?
For weeks going to http://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/index.html has not worked on Explorer, Chrome or Safari. Vince In Melbourne ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Cabeceo
> > so often the cortinas are very short or non existent and the floor does > not clear between tanda's. > > Peter Rose How short is short and what is the ideal length? I would say 30 seconds. However, I have seen it stretch out to 2 minutes. On the matter of cabeceo in general, I doubt it would work at many milongas in Australia, because either for seating arrangement or because of the very turned down light levels. And oh some women who take their glasses off for the night :) Vince In Melbourne ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Cabaceo & SAYING "NO"
Sean here. I should know better, but here are a few of my thoughts on the subject. --- Patricia Katz wrote: "I see many leaders with very good potential stay at a level that is below their ability; these leaders don't take workshops or privates when very good teachers are in town. It seems most women will dance with them, even the very " good" women and then these women complain about these leaders lack of navigation, embrace, not listening to the music etc." Sean says: The fact that these women complain about their partners does not suggest to me that they are better dancers than their men. --- Patricia Katz wrote: "these followers feel that if they refuse then they won't dance and it seems they would prefer to dance with a poor leader than sit out for a number of tandas. Sean says: There is the proof. These women need a serious reality check about their own abilities. I've talked to dozens of skilled dancers. But I don't think I have ever met one who would "prefer to dance with a poor leader than sit out". (That doesn't mean that there aren't other compelling social reasons for accepting a dance, but in his or her heart, a good dancer would prefer to sit.) Forget about the complaints from these women. When they accept a dance, they get exactly the dance they deserve. As for this whole card/cabaceo issue, I wonder if it is all over a single girl who can't say "no"? It is certainly not a widespread problem in Pittsburgh. I frequently see women turn down/avoid dancing with men here. And the sub-par dancer aggressively pursuing the skilled dancer is far more likely (90% or more) to be a woman than a man. Likewise, men are more likely than women to be dancing with someone below their own ability. The rant: All too frequently, women will tell me that the only time that they feel like they are really dancing is when they dance with me. They unfairly expect every other man to be able to create that illusion. So even though a man may be far above her level, he is still not good enough - in her mind. I would say to those women, that if you depend on the man to make you feel like you are dancing, then you are not at a level where you can judge your partners' ability, and you should be grateful for any partner you get. The women that I want to dance with manage to really dance, regardless of the man. Even if the man is far less skilled than she. Just sayin'. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
