Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo or not Nuevo...
MUFA is a lunfardo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunfardo) term that defines the essence of tango culture outside the confines of dance-music dichotomy. I have included a link for those interested in the meaning of term as well as othe rcommon expressions. http://www.scribd.com/doc/249322/Diccionario-de-lunfardo -- this link will open a web page with an embedded window showing 24 pages of lunfardo vocabulary. scroll down to page 22 and read the definition for MUFA. Happy Holidays,Amaury --- On Wed, 12/23/09, Shahrukh Merchant shahr...@shahrukhmerchant.com wrote: From: Shahrukh Merchant shahr...@shahrukhmerchant.com Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo or not Nuevo... To: amauryc...@yahoo.com Date: Wednesday, December 23, 2009, 2:39 PM or to simply cope with 'MUFA'. Monounsaturated fatty acid?? That's the only definition I could find for MUFA ... Shahrukh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Nuevo or not Nuevo...
Most conversations online and off line about the new art form known as tango nuevo has for the most part centered around form and function. This two-pronged discussion usually evolve into a discussion about teachers, style, musical preference, authenticity, etc... One think often missed in these passionate exchanges is that the nuevo phenomenon is not a passing fluke... it is here to stay. Nuevo can not be understood from looking at its outer most manifestation - dance and music. Instead Nuevo MUST be understood for what it REALLY is. A social movement within an art form to repudiate, deny, change, or to simply cope with 'MUFA'. The nostalgia, longness, and deep sadness embedded in the Tango lyrics, poetry, life style, music and dance in each generation becomes more and more a foreign concept to newer generations. Under such conditions (cultural distance from the isolation felt by immigrants during the turn of the 20th century) nuevo's proposed changes away from an almost foreign sense of loss is not so difficult to understand. Nuevo IMHO is just that -- a cry from the new generation of artist trying to infuse a new set of emotions in this beautiful art form. Such cry is bound to find sympathizers from all sides (young, old, etc...). Personaly I am just fine with the nostalgia, melancholy, and longness that Tango evokes. For I like many of my European ancestors find myself stranded as an immigrant on a land far from the cultural roots of my childhood. Amaury ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Tango ... beyond dancers
In the frenzy to prove how much dancers know about tango musicians and composers are often forgotten If we are truly a list of Tango enthusiasts why not pay respect to those that make it all possible Honestly the talent shown in the YouTube video below far far far outperform any recent dancing clips shown... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUiH_HpWYSc Just my 2 cents. Amaury ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Tango is more than moving on the dance floor....
In a frenzy to prove how much dancers know about tango (read the latest tedious postings about tango 'this' and tango 'that' )...musicians and composers are often forgotten If we are truly a list of Tango enthusiasts why not pay respect to those that make it all possible Honestly the talent shown in the YouTube video below far far far outperform any recent dancing clips shown... Just my 2 cents. Amaury --- On Wed, 10/28/09, Sergio Vandekier sergiovandekier...@hotmail.com wrote: From: Sergio Vandekier sergiovandekier...@hotmail.com Subject: [Tango-L] Tango tradicional To: Tango-L List tango-l@mit.edu Date: Wednesday, October 28, 2009, 2:12 PM Vince shows the following: A couple of real milongas in Seoul, that incorporate a few nuevo moves. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKgvdEMt2ks http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vOIKrjWHGI Many of the coupless would not be tagged as doing salon or millonguero style. A Seoul milonga that was identified as alternative with what appears to be respectful dancers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlY6-sDc614 No need to label a milonga if everyone is respectful. And if not, the host can do something about it I guess. My answer: It is of great benefit to have videos so that finally we can know what we are talking about. Vince these people are dancing Traditional Tango using some typical embellishments, such as boleos, amagues, etc. ***They are not dancing Tango Nuevo.*** As to the Alternative milonga...the only alternative thing is the music, the dancing is traditional tango as well. Last time when you picked your marbles and left, you could have learned the difference between Tango Nuevo, Traditional Tango and Tango Milonguero which obviously you do not know. You think that a high boleo is Nuevo tango and it is not. I am not planning to get into any argument with you. Respectfully, Sergio _ New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pc-scout/default.aspx?CBID=wlocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_pcscout:102009 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango is more than moving on the dance floor....
--- On Wed, 10/28/09, Amaury de Siqueira amauryc...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Amaury de Siqueira amauryc...@yahoo.com Subject: Tango is more than moving on the dance floor To: Tango-L List tango-l@mit.edu Date: Wednesday, October 28, 2009, 3:33 PM In a frenzy to prove how much dancers know about tango (read the latest tedious postings about tango 'this' and tango 'that' )...musicians and composers are often forgotten If we are truly a list of Tango enthusiasts why not pay respect to those that make it all possible Honestly the talent shown in the YouTube video below far far far outperform any recent dancing clips shown... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUiH_HpWYSc Just my 2 cents. Amaury --- On Wed, 10/28/09, Sergio Vandekier sergiovandekier...@hotmail.com wrote: From: Sergio Vandekier sergiovandekier...@hotmail.com Subject: [Tango-L] Tango tradicional To: Tango-L List tango-l@mit.edu Date: Wednesday, October 28, 2009, 2:12 PM Vince shows the following: A couple of real milongas in Seoul, that incorporate a few nuevo moves. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKgvdEMt2ks http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vOIKrjWHGI Many of the coupless would not be tagged as doing salon or millonguero style. A Seoul milonga that was identified as alternative with what appears to be respectful dancers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlY6-sDc614 No need to label a milonga if everyone is respectful. And if not, the host can do something about it I guess. My answer: It is of great benefit to have videos so that finally we can know what we are talking about. Vince these people are dancing Traditional Tango using some typical embellishments, such as boleos, amagues, etc. ***They are not dancing Tango Nuevo.*** As to the Alternative milonga...the only alternative thing is the music, the dancing is traditional tango as well. Last time when you picked your marbles and left, you could have learned the difference between Tango Nuevo, Traditional Tango and Tango Milonguero which obviously you do not know. You think that a high boleo is Nuevo tango and it is not. I am not planning to get into any argument with you. Respectfully, Sergio _ New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/pc-scout/default.aspx?CBID=wlocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_pcscout:102009 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Line of Dance
We all know that obedience to the line of dance is simply a matter of training...period. As I visit different communities and befriend hospitable instructors I have found an interesting correlation... communities where instructors for financial (or other valid reason) are pressured to focus on step-learning rather than fundamentals have a more difficult time to maintain a civil and hazard-free line of dance. The opposite also seems to hold true A few months ago a very well known female instructor visited our community in one of her exercises she asked dancers to wonder aimlessly on the dance floor Her jaw drooped when she noticed that after a few bars the students naturally gravitated to the outside line of the dance floor maintaining a fairly even space distance among each other. The event repeated every time she asked th dancers to break the 'code'. Its simply a matter of training.. so if we are going to blame someone for a chaotic line of dance.. lets not blame the students but the so called 'instructors'. Amaury --- On Wed, 10/28/09, Tango22 tang...@gmail.com wrote: From: Tango22 tang...@gmail.com Subject: [Tango-L] Line of Dance To: tango-L@mit.edu Date: Wednesday, October 28, 2009, 4:01 PM Trini wrote. What do traditionalists need to do to let attendees know that at their milongas, one adheres to a line of dance.I've never had a problem like this. Reminds me of an hilarious experience at a crowded milonga in the centre of Paris, where one imagines the quality of dance might be good, sensual; all things French. Perhaps it was called The Bull Ring or something similar - that should have tipped me off. We were startled by a young couple, clearly demonstrating their exceptional prowess, dancing directly towards us in the clockwise direction. When I politely pointed him in the right direction with my left hand, (perhaps he was directionally impaired) whilst making a smart avoidance move, he glared at me with the don't you know who I am? look. I swear I heard someone shout Ole!! when I received a smart gancho in the behind. It did not improve. We left soon after, a little wiser and sadder; visions of Tango in Paris in tatters. Keep smiling, John ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] commentary on advertisement, classes and workshops
The 'Walmartization' of Tango MEGA WORKSHOPS jam packed with teachers in glitzy locations around the world are a common sight today. How far from the bohemian atmosphere of local dancing bars these events have become. Siting in a circle sipping mate while enjoying a friendly talk with teachers and dancers are simply not possible in these MEGA events. Similar consumerism driven actions have also existed among teachers. Some have created imaginary divisive lines across styles others have claim invention of a complete new form of true AT. How sad all this seems to be... I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] commentary on advertisement, classes and workshops
Thank you Nina. I hope one day come to visit you in your community simply to dance and enjoy a few hours of good company! Abrazos,Amaury --- On Tue, 10/27/09, Nina Pesochinsky n...@earthnet.net wrote: From: Nina Pesochinsky n...@earthnet.net Subject: Re: [Tango-L] commentary on advertisement, classes and workshops To: Tango-L@mit.edu Date: Tuesday, October 27, 2009, 7:21 AM Amaury is right. It is sad. Tango is very simple. It is nothing more than music, poetry and the embrace of two people. But many people never look long enough into these simple things to see the beauty that they offer. They don't see that no other invention is needed. Best, Nina - Original Message - From: Amaury de Siqueira amauryc...@yahoo.com To: Tango-L@mit.edu Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 8:13 AM Subject: [Tango-L] commentary on advertisement, classes and workshops The 'Walmartization' of Tango MEGA WORKSHOPS jam packed with teachers in glitzy locations around the world are a common sight today. How far from the bohemian atmosphere of local dancing bars these events have become. Siting in a circle sipping mate while enjoying a friendly talk with teachers and dancers are simply not possible in these MEGA events. Similar consumerism driven actions have also existed among teachers. Some have created imaginary divisive lines across styles others have claim invention of a complete new form of true AT. How sad all this seems to be... I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Harmony and Balance
Bloomington Argentine Tango Organization in conjunction with Minetti Productions, cordially invites you to attend our workshop: Harmony and Balance - A Weekend of Traditional Argentine Tango with Fernanda Ghi and Guillermo Merlo, accompanied by the live tango ensemble Tangamente. November 13 - 15 Dancers attending this workshop will work on material emphasizing the harmony between dancers and the music while attending to the necessary 'balance' of roles between leaders and followers. Harmony Balance focuses on honing dancers' skills in three essential domains of social Argentine tango dance: Musicality, Navigation, and Technique. The combination of these three separate skills when properly executed improve dancers' floor craft allowing for a smooth movement in the line of dance and an enjoyable dance experience for both leaders and followers. The workshop's program is : Principles of Navigation I II, Technique for Salon Tango, Musicality Musicality Redux as well as 2 practice sessions. Detailed description of all classes may be found online at our website. In addition we are also excited to offer an evening Gala Milonga that will consist of a performance by Fernanda and Guillermo, with musical accompaniment by Tangamente. This Gala Milonga open to the public at $15 for students, $25 for non-students, and $40 for couples. Pricing of packages are: -Beginner package $100 -Intermediate Advance package $160 -Complete Package (Beginner and Advance classes) $190 **Please note packages do not include attendance to the Gala Milonga. Additionally, a special yoga for Tango Dancers class will be offered, by an accredited instructor, to help keep you in top shape for this great weekend (pricing for the Yoga classes is yet to be determined). Fernanda Guillermo will also be available for private lessons as well. Scheduling for private lessons will be made available soon online. The location will be: Space 101 (101 East 6th Street) Bloomington, IN. Learn more and register with us at our website - http://www.bloomingtontango.net/ ATTENTION: Check our website to find out when the 90 spaces available for the workshop have been filled. - Gender Balance Control will be implemented when needed. Please register online to guarantee your place. Abrazos, Bloomington Argentine Tango Organization ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] La Grande Milonga - Lafayette
To ALL participants in the “La Grande Milonga – Lafeyette” Our very first Milonga bringing together four great tango communities in the mid-west was a great success. Urbana, Lafayette, Bloomington and Cincinnati converged in a beautiful dance hall in Purdue for an evening of great dance and social moments. The folks in Purdue created a wonderful atmosphere – the food and drink table was wonderful and the dancing hall was beautiful. Joe Grohens from Urbana started the evening with a great set of tandas and the evening just kept getting better. The dancers from CIncinatti were a pleasure to meet Michael, Nuria, Julie, Chuck and Debbie you guys are great! Dancing with everyone – a true class act! The Lafayette group was a joy to meet very attentive hosts from the door people to the ones in charge of the clean up. We hope we can extend the same care during our November Workshop with Fernanda and Guillermo. The Urbana dancers never stopped dancing. You guya are very fun to be with. I am looking forward to my next Milonga in Urbana! Claire you are very very fun. Finally I would like to say thank you to my friends in Bloomington. I feel very fortunate to have met people like you. I am proud to share the dance floor with all of you!! Abrazos, Amaury I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] tango in a small midwest town
We are a small group of (amateur) dancers and musicians working collaboratively in a small midwest town. We love tango and work very hard helping each other the best we can. Our first concert as a group was in our town's little theater. You can view our very first work together here: Mano a mano: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoOM86TB5bgfeature=related La Cumparsita: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGEB15KwqCUfeature=related No te vayas Bandoneon / Preludio para la cruz Del Sur http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-RVs9Qb6ZU enjoy! Amaury ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Comment on the post How do you decide who to dance with?
I have been for so long hitting the delete key for most tango postings that often times i forget the reason for such mechanical and thoughtless behavior. So then sometimes I tell myself... maybe I am too critical or simply wrong about the ideas posted in the list... In these moments of self-doubt I make the mistake to read a posting...invariably something like the ideas below... Then I immediately remember the reasons why I should and will continue to hit the delete key before ever opening any of the comments in this list. Not to leave without a more constructive commentary I will say this: Tango is a social activity which I construed to mean that we are operating in a social environment... for me to be social is not to have a critical list of prerequisites guiding who I dance or not with. To be social is to leave one's professional and emotional baggages out of the door and enter a space willing to try... willing to make mistakes and above all willing to live. Out of this thread and the list what a waste. Amaury --- On Fri, 3/20/09, Noughts damian.thomp...@gmail.com wrote: From: Noughts damian.thomp...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How do you decide who to dance with? To: Steve Littler s...@stevelittler.com Cc: tango-l@mit.edu Date: Friday, March 20, 2009, 9:39 AM I always dance with my partner first and last - if that is possible. If I have to excuse myself to freshen up at either end of the night and miss either the first or last, c'est la vie. However like others, then I love to dance my warm up tanda's with people I know who are forgiving and kind to me and allow me to get the kinks out so to speak. Then, depending upon the music as to whom I dance with - I rarely dance a milonga with anyone but an experienced dancer and one that I have shared time with doing tango first. Milonga has so little reaction time for the follower that you want to know that the partner can keep up with change of pace, syncopation and quick changes of direction first. Vals I dance with either beginnners, or advanced and Tango with all. Nuevo (if you want to label) with more advanced, but not only. As for the order, whomever is available, but sometimes, I like to watch too... sometimes people forget that this is also a chance for men, women and kids if they are dancing or there, that we all like to watch and see how everyone else is going. I don't care about age, weight, race or religion - love to dance with people that connect, the reason we are there ;-) Damian PS - I'll dance with men too, if we run short but hey, isn't that how we improve? :-) ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] help grouping
Hi Folks, I am not familiar at all with different orchestras. I need some help with existing schema (models) that would facilitate my understanding of rhythm, mood, style, etc... Even the categories are open to interpretation. PLEASE I do not want this to be a thread of wrong or right... I just want to know if dancers out there have any particular way to group musical pieces or orchestras together. Just starting to think about this makes me confused. I think this could be a very positive online community project that would inform dancers and non-dancers alike. Any help with that would be greatly appreciated. thank you, Amaury ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] part2 -improving discussion in our forum -- sugestions
Folks, Good morning and thank you for both supporting and not so supporting personal email messages. I simply pointed out the challenges of communicating in a text-based lean medium and offered 3 suggestions on how to AVOID (if that is one's intention) situations that could lead to online misunderstandings. Some will follow others won't The consequences however will be fairly predictable. Respectfuly, Amaury -Original Message- From: tango-l-boun...@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-boun...@mit.edu] On Behalf Of Myk Dowling Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 12:20 AM To: Tango-L Subject: Re: [Tango-L] improving discussion in our forum -- sugestions Amaury de Siqueira wrote: In such situations humans (showing remarkable adaptability) created strategies for coping with the lack of minimal cues. Such strategies include the use of emoticons :-) ... :-( ;-/ ; acronyms (LOL, IMHO, LOLAR) ; and certain writing strategies to minimize potential for misunderstandings. If I'm joking, I'll consider using them. But I'm trying to have a serious discussion about the _differences_ that separate nuevo tango from what came before (which I refer to as traditional tango for sake of convenience). The use of absolute statements is not very helpful and sometimes alienating. For example Myk writes -- ... must have _some_ difference; ...You cannot lead an underarm...; ... All leading comes from the chest...; and etc But sometimes an absolute statement is helpful. Does anyone want to deny that there _is_ a difference between nuevo and traditional tango? If so, they're welcome to say so. _That's_ the way to have a discussion. I welcome anyone to explain how an underarm turn can _possibly_ be lead without using one's arm. Some absolute statements are entirely justified. And I was simply repeating other people's all leading comes from the chest statements in order to deconstruct the statement, so you can't blame that absolute statement on me. I was in fact just saying that it's not entirely true. (I could go on extracting more text from the message... but this must suffice. Another helpful hint for successful communication is to avoid complex constructs of ideas... for example our dear Chicho simply stated not arms... just connection... that should be enough. I mean I don’t know you guys but I have the sense that our audience has shown over the years a certain amount of fluency and intelligence. So there is no reason to offend the audience by repeating oneself an restating the obvious. No, it isn't enough, because he might just be (gasp!) wrong. When it comes down to it, people don't always realise what they do with their own bodies. What does Chicho mean when he says just connection? When his only physical connection to his partner is through his arms, then surely he _is_ using them? And what on Earth is _wrong_ with using your arms to dance? Where did this whole no arms schtick come from, and how has it become elevated to such a high level of worthiness? People are treating this like it's a touchier subject than religion or politics. It's just dancing, people! Relax! Finally, we should all know that the real experts seldom if ever post to the list... What I mean is that we are all AMATEURS... So we should show some humility and tone down our language and thoughts of intellectual and dance grandeur. But doing that makes the list a bland nonentity that isn't worth reading. We become more than amateurs by discussing things, and using what we learn. Humble posts with little substance and many qualifiers are _boring_ posts. Let me just make one thing clear. I _like_ nuevo. I dance nuevo myself at times (though nowhere near as well as Damian, let alone Chicho). Myk in Canberra ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] improving discussion in our forum -- sugestions
I probably should just mind my own business and do as I have said before in other postings work instead of reading tango related messages. However I see an opportunity here to help future online interactions. The problem with text only computer mediated communication (mostly text-based applications such as chat, BBS and email) is that the medium is in itself very 'lean'. By lean I mean we do not have other nuances such as visual and aural cues for us to interpret what someone is 'saying'. In such situations humans (showing remarkable adaptability) created strategies for coping with the lack of minimal cues. Such strategies include the use of emoticons :-) ... :-( ;-/ ; acronyms (LOL, IMHO, LOLAR) ; and certain writing strategies to minimize potential for misunderstandings. Having said that... we can also really complicate communication in lean text-based communication . Here are some approaches that do not lend themselves to constructive communication... The use of absolute statements is not very helpful and sometimes alienating. For example Myk writes -- ... must have _some_ difference; ...You cannot lead an underarm...; ... All leading comes from the chest...; and etc (I could go on extracting more text from the message... but this must suffice. Another helpful hint for successful communication is to avoid complex constructs of ideas... for example our dear Chicho simply stated not arms... just connection... that should be enough. I mean I don’t know you guys but I have the sense that our audience has shown over the years a certain amount of fluency and intelligence. So there is no reason to offend the audience by repeating oneself an restating the obvious. Finally, we should all know that the real experts seldom if ever post to the list... What I mean is that we are all AMATEURS... So we should show some humility and tone down our language and thoughts of intellectual and dance grandeur. Following these simple rules could help improve the quality of our discussions. Amaury PS: On a side note I must note that some of these patterns of behavior are ingrained in people as a result of educational, cultural, and GENDER experiences. So things will not change overnight ... but at least we can try. -Original Message- From: tango-l-boun...@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-boun...@mit.edu] On Behalf Of Myk Dowling Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 10:27 AM To: tango-l Subject: Re: [Tango-L] R-E-S-P-E-C-T David Thorn wrote: It appears to me that both traditional tango and social tango are often used as code to mean 'close embrace all the time tango'. So what term can we use to refer to the tango that is not nuevo tango? That's what I was using Traditional tango for. Such use would seem to ignore the fact that, as has been oft noted in this list, the nuevo style of tango actually contains no new movements! All modern tango movement can be found, or its roots found, in the dance of years past. So perhaps nuevo is actually quite traditional and perhaps it is insulting to those who dance modern tango to be told that they are not dancing with respect for the traditions of tango. The nuevo style must have _some_ difference, or we wouldn't be able to call it a distinct style. If it contains no new movements, then the difference would seem (in my observation) to be in the dancers' alignment relative to their partners' chests. Does anyone actually want to _discuss_ this? Finally, I'll mention the lead. A good modern tango dancer nearly always leads with his chest, his core and his heart. If my partner is to my side, I still lead with my heart and my core. I don't ever shove her with my arms. The arms are merely the extension of my core and provide the instantaneous connection between my heart and hers. Yes, I do use my arms, my wrists, my fingers, but the lead is from my core. The rest just adds nuance. Again, it is both insulting and inaccurate to say that modern tango, when danced well, is not led with the heart and the chest. You cannot lead an underarm turn without using your arms. (Surely that is obvious?) The motion and the intent still comes from the chest, but to claim that that's what chest leading means is to rob the term of any effective meaning. All leading comes from the chest (and the heart, if you insist, but I'm really just talking about the basics) from one perspective. But in some dances, the arms play a greater role than others. It's simple fact. To guide your partner to move to your side (relative to your chest) and back in front can't be done just with the chest. How this observation can be considered to be insulting, is what baffles me. I say here is a difference I can see. And in response, I get people saying I'm being insulting. What insult? Why is perceived _difference_ an insult? Myk in Canberra ___ Tango-L mailing
[Tango-L] pre-school all over again
Wow!! I have to say that the longer I live the more convinced I am that humans instead of aging indeed do regress mentally over time -- or maybe even do not mature at all after their 5th B-day. The latest Chicho exchange is proof of that the funny thing though was Chicho's remarks. he simply said... wow that was long ago... not arms just connection. That was it no 'blah, blah, blah'. Just a quick and simple statement and the conversation ended. :- )) And here we are some of you bickering talking this and that about someone that is above all of this really he is simply concerned with dancing... For me this situation is very much like this... A bunch of people bored with their 'real life' routines select an artifact (anything like video, music, dancing style) and go on a tirade using that artifact as an outlet for their insecurities and other stuff I feel for the moderator of our list... their 'babysitting' job must be at best tedious. Shame on you... really Amaury -Original Message- From: tango-l-boun...@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-boun...@mit.edu] On Behalf Of Tango-L and Tango-A Administrator Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 3:24 PM To: tango-l@MIT.EDU Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Bye for now Future posts by Noughts and Vince are temporarily being reviewed to ensure that they are rules-compliant. This is usually done for posts that violate the no flaming rules (most other rules violations get a warning, or are often ignored if they are minor and/or not repeated). I hope, however, that they do continue to post, as much of the content was otherwise informative and interesting. As far as another reader's comment: It has been simmering and I am now sufficiently fed up with the way how some members of this list prefer to interact disrespectfully with each other. Point well taken, but allow me to suggest a more constructive response (than complaining to the list, or at least in ADDITION to complaining to the list): Post something to the list YOURSELF that is the kind of post you would like to see, written in the way you would like to see it written. No better way to make the point than by example, and the list then benefits by a well-written contribution as well. And anyone who is reluctant to post for fear of being attacked: well, indeed your IDEA or OPINION may very well be attacked (disagreed with, perhaps strongly, though one hopes respectfully), but any PERSONAL attack, although I cannot guarantee will never happen, will certainly be short-lived, at least on Tango-L, and should therefore become rare. Tango-L and Tango-A administrator tango-l-ow...@mit.edu ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] no religion -- reply to Ron
Ron, Your lengthy posting reinforces my point. There are so many assumptions in your message that I feel discouraged as i am writing these few lines. It suffice to say that your ideas affirms a single view of what constitutes to be an Argentine and a tango dancer. Such ideas seems to come from an outsider's view and reflect a position of dominance (it does not matter if you have been to Argentine a 1,000 times.. your ideas are still filtered by your experiences). The most dangerous part of your behavior is that you really do seems convinced that your construct of what count as being Argentine and a dancer is the right one and can be so simply reduced to a few lines in an email. Amaury -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tango Society of Central Illinois Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 3:02 PM To: tango-l Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango the Religion On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 4:59 PM, David Thorn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I too have puzzled over this religious fervor. If one looks for example at Lindy Hop, another street dance with no ruling body, it passed through the style wars (Savoy vs. Hollywood vs. West Coast Swing vs. ..) in a matter of several years. A 'milonga' is a place or event where tango social dancing occurs. The origin of the tango and the milonga are in Buenos Aires. The terms derive their meaning from the culture of their origin. Within the ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] no religion -- Andreas and the age of reason ::yawn::
Andreas ::yawn:: I will only engage with content that I deem worth discussing. Your commentary while poised to potentially cause a flame war is not worth a reply. Interestingly enough you also seems to fit neatly in the category I defined in my first email ... hum... coincidence maybe. You may want open your eyes, re-read my posting and try seeing things a little less linearly. If my words do not make sense to you... than my friend that is because we (you and I) live and very likely dance in different worlds. Interestingly enough I have seen Ron dancing ... his dance matches his conversation style. I am sure I would find your dancing as boring, linear and rational as your comments. Lets take this thread off the list please. Any other comments kindly address to my private email... I am sure you can do that...yes? Amaury -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andreas Wichter Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 7:00 PM To: tango-l@mit.edu Subject: [Tango-L] no religion -- reply to Ron Dear Amaury, After reading this post and your previous one, and comparing them to the one Ron contributed to the subject, I have a few observations. Your first post contained a lot of vagueness relevant to the subject only in a peripheral sense. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Closing remarks on the Apilado, marketing thread
Sergio and Chris Thank you for the genuine effort to keep the discussion coherent, civilized, and even toned. I was compelled to write the initial posting after disheartening experiences on past milongas. In the past two years I have encountered some hostility from folks claiming that Apilado style is the only way to dance tango. While visiting a milonga for the first time in a certain mid-west city I was approached by one of the milonga organizer and literally belittle for not adhering to a strict closed embraced tango dance. In yet a second mid-western city, a dancer from Atlanta, Georgia refused to step on the dance floor with me unless I danced strictly close embrace! In both instances I conformed (in sadness) with the local requirements. On a very recent trip to Boston I had an incredibly pleasant time on the dance floor. Pamela and her husband (MIT tango instructors) were very hospitable and courteous. I also had the opportunity to dance with (two local dancers) Gina Mora and Debbi Hobson ... marvelous dancers... neither imposing a particular dance form. I believe our learning process is not limited to dancing alone. Students will learn much more than just steps from instructors. It would be wonderful if instructors would act more responsibly placing their marketing needs in a secondary place to teaching tolerance and respect to all styles. And Nancy in regards to your postings on Susna Miller... No one attacked her reputation ... its sad when peoples ideas and opinions are purposefully twisted and misrepresented as personal attacks. It is responses like yours that promote disruption and flames in online environments. Amaury --- On Sun, 6/29/08, Sergio Vandekier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Sergio Vandekier [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Tango-L] Apilado, marketing To: Tango-L List tango-l@mit.edu Date: Sunday, June 29, 2008, 6:12 PM Thank you Paul for the correct date of the Clarin article : La guerra de los roces (The war of the roces). Roces means rubbing, friction. A reference to the War of the roses (a dynastic English war 1455- 1487), playing with the words Roses and Roces. The article in Spanish appears if you specify the correct date August 8 1999. It does not appear if you just specify the year 1999. The paragraph in question (in clarin) says: A little later, Susana Miller began her classes at the traditional Club Almagro. Miller (of academic extraction) associated with Cacho Dante (a veteran aficionado) begun from her classes the propagation of which usually is known as the Almagro style - very similar to the typical style of the downtown night clubs of the 40's. Its less demanding requirements gave access even to those who were less fitted naturally, technically or sensitively. And it quickly put on the dance floor an enormous amount of new fans, generating a true leveling off of the dance. The web page cited by Chris says : Susana has probably put more people on the dance floors of Buenos Aires than any other single teacher. An article in Clarin, the major Buenos Aires daily paper, cited her as one of the four most important influences on contemporary tango, along with Miguel Angel Zotto, Gustavo Naveira and Gerardo Portalea. (Clarification citation added by Karen 6/29/2008.) . I guess everything is clear...finally...I hope. As I said before she did a good job propagating the milonguero style abroad. The marketing story was/is that it is the only possible way one can dance at the milongas in buenos Aires. So some people here in the USA started becoming upset by any one that used any other style at their milongas. Accusing them of not knowing how to navigate the floor, being dangerous, a continuous annoyance difficult to endure. Some started making the floor very small so that they could imitate the lack of space present in the crowded milongas of Buenos Aires. But all this is another story. Have a nice weekend, (what is left of it), Sergio _ Windows Live Hotmail is giving away Zunes. Enter for your chance to win. http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/ZuneADay/?locale=en-USocid=TXT_TAGLM_Mobile_Zune_V3 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Reflections on competition and art form.
I wonder... what is the side-effect of taking a socially grounded art form and making it a competition? In a few instances that I know of the competitive execution of art forms have eventually transformed the fundamental way in which artist practices and execute the art form. Emphasis on competition may have the following side-effects: execution becomes geared towards fitting particular guidelines and standards (stifling creativity); scoring points become the ultimate measurement of a dancer; and the financial requirements of such competitions alienate talented dancers of low social economic status. Anyone needing examples of what the future will look like for tango competition -- look at dance sport (formerly know as ballroom) and judo (competition vs. art form practice). Amaury --- On Tue, 6/10/08, Astrid [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Astrid [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Marketing or hype? To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Tango-L@mit.edu Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tuesday, June 10, 2008, 12:38 AM The URL for the 2007 World Argentine tango show championship's list of winners is this: http://www.mundialdetango.gov.ar/tango_escenario_e.php The Japanese winners and finalists are all dancers I know personally, Chizuko still works at the studio I go to for their milongas while her partner Sebastian has returned to BA. The Korean couple who won 1st prize a couple of years ago paid our milonga a visit on their way home to Seoul. Gonzalo who won 2nd place last year with a Japanese partner never returned to Tokyo after that. Cristian Lopez who won 4th place the year before that with Rika has been bought up by another studio in Tokyo, I used to dance with him every week. So, don't rush to conclusions if you just lack information, Chris. The video of the teaching couple you posted does not look like they would be able to win the Mundial in BA, but then you never know. Sometimes dancers just have to know the right people and take lessons with someone who is on the jury to score in these kind of events. There are also world tango competitions held in Florida, or were, at any case, the teacher who organised them would then proudly announce on tango-l that all the winning couples had been among his students, except for Gavito and Marcella and such... So, no need to take these results all that seriously, but these competitions do exist. The proper name for th BA event is Campeonato Mundial de Baile de Tango. Copes, Sergio Cortazzo and such people are on the jury. I would love to know more about the salon tango competitions but unfortunately, teachers from Japan (Japanese or Argentine) do not usually compete in that, but there were a few who went and one or two couples scored. Chris wrote: this UK teaching couple http://tinyurl.com/5pmbh4 who claim to have won the World Argentine Tango Show Championship. Despite there being no record of a World Argentine Tango Show Championship ever having been held. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango and Management Skills
In six days I will be presenting in an Organizational Behavior Teaching Conference on the use of AT principles to elicit key concepts in organizational leadership. Will post the results of the conference later. Amaury --- On Thu, 6/5/08, Jay Rabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Jay Rabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango and Management Skills To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], tango-l@mit.edu Date: Thursday, June 5, 2008, 10:30 AM Paul, What an exciting project. I sincerely home you'll be posting some followup on how it goes. J TangoMoments.com _ It’s easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites through Windows Live™ Messenger. Learn how. https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnHow ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] nuevo tango -- Basic economics and exoticism
I enjoyed reading the different positions offered in regards to tango styles. One missing point in this discussion is simple economics. = Tango Nuevo proliferates because there is a demand for it!! =20 From the student perspective learning Nuevo Tango is a matter of = individual esthetic and personal connection with the dance and music. I would find = it difficult to express my feelings in Nuevo style while listening to the = words of El Choclo. -- Vieja milonga que en mi horas de tristeza, traes a = mi mente tu recuerdo cari=F1oso. =20 But as I said before that is a personal choice. Students are free to = choose what they want to look like on the dance floor as they listen to words = and musical notes. Perhaps the traditional AT form and expression feels oppressive and too conforming... too square. So let's look different = and cool... yeah !! The second issue addresses instructors. Here economics plays a larger = role. We all know that competition in a free market economy only allows the = best to prevail. If you cannot succeed as a top professional in a given area = you then need to change strategies. Product differentiation is an old = trick to bring the worse in one area to the top on another. So NUEVO TANGO emerges... A new space where one can claim to have mastered certain movements and thus command $$$ for services rendered.=20 In a rare moment :-) I agree with Nina's posting. It is a matter of maturity and experience (or perhaps not). One thing is certain... as = long as people are willing to pay for Nuevo Tango classes you will find = someone teaching it. The creation and marketing of Nuevo Tango is a great strategy to create = a niche on the market where one can exploit and earn a decent living. = Lets market, and sell... and does sexy sell?? Sure it does. Package some of that sexiness with pictures of exotic places and birds and voila!!! = You have created the perfect vacation package for those seeking the thrill = of an exotic and sensual experience. Such experience promises to move the = novice tango dancer away from the drudgery of their daily life and work. = Perhaps a few days in an exotic place away from bills, children, church, neighbors = and the white picket fence with 2 cars garage will re-energize my life. =20 Nuevo Tango is giving a voice for those dancers that find it difficult = to connect with the culture, feelings and emotions associated with the more traditional form of AT. Amaury -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf = Of Nina Pesochinsky Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 1:35 AM To: tango-l@mit.edu Subject: Re: [Tango-L] New nuevo tango Sacrifices Tradition and Grace Great article. Thank you, Huck. I think that it is OK that they dance that way. For now. If they=20 are under 30, they probably do not have the inner resources to=20 appreciate the finer things of tango that the author refers=20 to. Some of it may be even scary for them. But if you give them 10 years or so, they might change. By that=20 time, all of the current traditionalists of whatever age might be=20 dead, and so these people will be the future dancers. And they will=20 not dance as they do now. This stuff is deeply unsatifying after one=20 achieves a level of maturity that commands self-respect. So tango nuevo is a great trick meant to suck in the young and=20 innocent, and keep them there until they become smart enough and=20 mature enough to be trusted with the real thing. Nina At 08:22 PM 4/16/2008, Huck Kennedy wrote: On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 7:04 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's a great article by Terence Clarke on Tango Nuevo, with the=20 popular DNI school in BsAs as an example of what he terms Playground Tango: http://blogcritics.org/archives/2008/04/15/125453.php As I read through this article, I was so hoping for a cargo pants reference and almost thought I was going to be disappointed, when finally--Yes!! It showed up in the next-to-last paragraph. Fantastic! Bravo, Mr. Clarke. Huck ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] once again
Joe, I am not quite sure about your statement. Would you mind qualify a little better what you meant in your statement: tango was born in the brothels. From the little I know (and is literaly quite little)the construct of tango's singularity (born in a single place from a single group and a single economic status)is as embarrassing as associating bananas with South America. Unknowingly, your associations (tango-brothel)is a variation of the same cultural diconnect represented in some variations of Nuevo Tango. Cheers, Amaury --- Joe Grohens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: tango is a sensuous undertaking of direct erotic power and great feeling. Dressing well for it gives it even more of this power because the elegance of the dress enhances the fires rising from the soul and the heart. The fires, as it were, hide themselves within the clothing. They smolder there. They're fanned by suggestion and nuance. They begin to appear as the result of the erotic give-and-take between two very involved dancers, and when the flames finally break out, they are truly incendiary. Terrence forgot to mention that tango was born in the brothels. Now that's a tradition we really want to nurture. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo tango just another evolutionary wave
LA has a very interesting group of Nuevo tango dancers. Had a chance to see some of them at 'El Encuentro' and other venues. Unimpressive and often time annoying. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 7:09 PM To: tango-L@mit.edu Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo tango just another evolutionary wave I have absolutely no trouble watching, learning, or doing nuevo tango - and I'm an old geezer in his 60s. And I certainly don't shave my head or grow a goat's-beard beard or dress in cargo pants. In fact, I usually wear a vest and tie and dance dress shoes and an Armani suit or jacket - NOT for snob appeal but because Armani designs are engineering marvels: comfy, fit right off the rack, and feel as light and cool as elven illusions. Then as the evening wears on I strip off vest then tie then jacket and eventually shift to a short sleeved shirt. And once a month I wear jeans and a tee and tennies just to play around with styles. I think all of you gritching about how awful and shallow and inelegant nuevo is are a bunch of old fogies regardless of your age. Or maybe a bunch of children who never grew up. Lighten up. It's just another of the evolutionary waves that tango has gone through ever since it was invented. Eventually people will assimilate the good parts and reject the silly parts. And the young pups of today grown older will be gritching about the next new thing! Larry de Los Angeles _ Click here for free information on starting a business from your home. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iieVCyAPTr89tKinTbEYVFkwxuZ 7SwbiASFy4HUvdXjkvpfai/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Question on Gardel
Chris, Thank you very much for this info. I learned something new today. Amaury -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 5:36 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Question on Gardel Amaury, Dancing to Gardel's music is considered a serious insult to his memory, almost on the order of sitting down for the Argentine National Anthem. It's definitely music for serious listening. Gardel is a revered national hero of Argentina since his death over 70 years ago. If you say the Carlito everyone in Ba knows who you are talking about, and in fact there is still a dance step named after him (from his movie appearances) called the Gardelito. Then again, none of it would be considered really danceable. Consider how little music from before 1935 is played at the milongas. Christopher On Tue, 8 Jan 2008 07:48:56 -0800 (PST), Amaury de Siqueira [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I cant remember one single milonga playing tangos with Gardel's voice. Not once! Given his prominence as a singer in the tango world I would expect hear his voice in every milongas at least in one tanda. I admit I have very limited experience with tango, so maybe I am just missing the obvious. Anyone with any ideas? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tango For Her Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 8:17 AM To: tango-l@mit.edu Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango schizophrenia That is really good advice TFH, but those things are all about dancing well, not about developing your own particular style (whatever that might mean). If you are aspiring to develop an individual style, I think it is assumed you can already dance tango confidently. Victor Bennetts Actually, I have always been told, since those lessons, that I have a style of soft tango that noone else has (in the places that I have danced). So, I was trying to relate that my style really did emerge from finding the right teachers and working on what I wanted. Well, except for the second teacher who was one of those geniuses (not just in tango) that you come across once in a great while. So, anything that he said, I wanted to hear. I already danced well before the lessons. But, I AFTER those lessons, followers always comment on my style. I am proud that my followers comment on how balanced they are and the exactness of my lead. That came from my first set of lessons. I know that I am free from thinking in terms of patterns. That was distinctly from my second set of lessons. I am extremely happy that I receive comments about the softness of my tango. That was, most definitely, from my third set of lessons. So, my advice about developing your own style is to find the greatest tango minds that you can, shell out the bucks, put your chest on theirs in private lessons, and do what they say! Those lessons were close to 10 years ago. Good close embrace private lessons definitely do have a lasting effect. ... Actually, I if it is nuevo tango, exchange of lead and follow, or something of that nature that you want, then maybe the close embrace aspect wouldn't apply. I am just saying that I developed the style that I wanted through these lessons. The original posting asked for examples. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] translation for El Viejo Vals
Can anyone point me to an English translation of #8220;ElViejo Vals#8221;? Much appreciated! Amaury __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
