Re: [Tango-L] tango to rap

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Hello Trini,

I did receive authorisation to pass on his  email, IMHO.  As someone who 
markets themselves as an international professional tango teacher, he did in 
a very straight forward manner state where I was "wrong".  I am sure he 
would have liked to reply on Tango L but AFAIK he is not a member having 
left in disgust a few years ago.  I make no comments about his form of 
reply, as I do not understand it myself.

I think you are confusing the ad with the making of the ad video.  To me 
there is no connection between the dancers and between them and music in the 
ad.  They seem to have choreographed a piece and then inserted the music as 
far as I could see.  They could have been just as well been tangoing to a 
polka in the end!!

I thought this forum is about the lovers of real Argentine tango and 
therefore the vast majority of readers here would like to know what has 
happened to their passion in the real world? The people who I said were 
liking/not liking the ad I was referring to the comments under the Youtube 
posting, not to who like/disliked the ad here on Tango L.  It is merely my 
guess that in the main they are not written by Argentine tango dancers. 
Personally, I was and still am affronted that tango has to be wrapped up in 
rap music to make it palatable to the masses and I dread that we will now 
start to hear rap pieces being played at mainstream milongas.  If that 
happens, I think I will leaving the dance floor if not the milonga.

Vince
In Melbourne

(Sleepy, after the several unlisted phone calls in a row overnight. So sorry 
if the above is not making much sense.)



-Original Message- 
From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS)
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 2:22 AM
To: Tango-L
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango to rap

>Firstly, it's extremely rude

>Secondly, I thought the ad was pretty cool

>Thirdly, Vince, if you didn't like it and were only going to criticize it

Trini
de Pittsburgh



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Re: [Tango-L] Tango to Rap

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Well the male tango dancer does state his name (Gaspar Godoy) which then 
leads us to many of his show tango videos on Youtube.

-Original Message- 
From: hbboog...@aol.com
Watch the making of the video it's pretty cool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N9WhnABBxA 

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[Tango-L] Tango to Rap

[Vince Bagusauskas]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-6njVFEq2A

It is rubbish, but some people like it from reading the comments on Youtube.

Vince
In Melbourne 

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Re: [Tango-L] The Australian context for copyright in OriginalTango Music

[Vince Bagusauskas]

The short answer to your questions, if copyright still exists, then "yes" to 
all of them.

>Does that mean that all of those people on Youtube that record themselves

I read something on TangoDJ where BMI I think, were pursuing and successful 
in taking down videos of tango works in which they held copyright.  As 
Youtube is based in the USA and USA copyright exists for 70 years after a) 
1st recording b) death if the artist, then I suspect all vidoes of tango 
works would be in breach under US law.  Rather than fining the offender, the 
copyright holder would like to be paid, and through the various associations 
educate the public to do the right thing.  Which leads me to the question, 
if anyone knows of anyone on Youtube having done the right thing in terms of 
tango music.



-Original Message- 
From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS)
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2011 3:54 AM
To: Tango-L
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The Australian context for copyright in OriginalTango 
Music

>he must have a license to perform it (which I would guess would be handled 
>by the school)?

>Would "public performance" include anything outside of the home, regardless 
>of whether money is requested to hear the performance?




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Re: [Tango-L] The Australian context for copyright in Original Tango Music

[Vince Bagusauskas]

The following is a response from the Licensing Department, PHONOGRAPHIC 
PERFORMANCE COMPANY OF AUSTRALIA (PPCA), to a series of questions I posed to 
them:


"On 1 January 2005, the duration of copyright increased.  The increase 
applies to all works and sound recordings which were in copyright on that 
date and those created after that date.

With regard to musical works (the written music and lyrics), copyright 
subsists until the expiration of 70 years from the end of the calendar year 
in which the author/composer of the work died. In relation to protected 
sound recordings, copyright subsists until the expiration of 70 years after 
the end of the calendar year in which the recording is first published.

This means that, while you may be playing classical music recordings, you 
may still be required to hold a licence for the public performance of the 
protected sound recording itself (which can be obtained from PPCA) if the 
recorded version of the classical music is not more than 70 years old.

In other words, while you may be playing a Beethoven composition (in which 
copyright has expired), the CD/cassette you are playing may be, for example, 
by the Australian Symphony Orchestra, recorded in 1998. As the particular 
recording by the orchestra is only 11 years old, copyright exists in the 
protected sound recording and a licence to publicly perform it is required.

With regard to your query, regarding playing recorded music from Argentina, 
I confirm we have an agreement with Argentina and a licence with PPCA would 
still be required."

So there you go.

Vince
In Melbourne


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[Tango-L] The Australian context for copyright in Original Tango Music

[Vince Bagusauskas]

This really is an interesting topic the more I read about it.  There are 
many different factors that performers, dance schools, milongas and DJs need 
to consider.  Here is what I have distilled so far from many different 
websites for Australian copyright.

Copyright has totally been extinguished if:-
•If the original composer and lyricist had died prior to 1955 and if the 
1st recording had been made prior to 1955 then no economic or moral 
copyright now exists in Australia.  Persons can use tango music in any way 
they see fit, including re-releasing it on CD.

Copyright has not been extinguished if:-
•If the original recording was done post 1955:  Copyright still exists 
to 2025 in the sound recording.
•If the composer and lyricist died post 1955: Copyright still exists in 
the musical work to 2025.

I think in most instances, the copyright in tango sound recordings have now 
been extinguished in Australia.  However, as a result of above, you may 
still need to pay a license fee to the composer and lyricist when playing 
tango at your dance event.

Different organisations in Australia collect fees for the record companies 
and for the composer/lyricist.

The organisation that collects license fees for the record companies has 
many different fee structures:-
•The rate for milongas/practicas varies between a licensed/non-licensed 
venue from around AU$1 to AU$3 per person per event;
•An annual Mobile DJ license fee if the DJ is not working in a venue 
holding a public license, of around AU$100; and
•Annual fees for dance studios that varies upon the number of classes 
they hold per week.
Further reading see:
http://www.ppca.com.au/music-users-/licensing-faq/#apra
http://www.ppca.com.au/music-users-/tariffs/
Again I stress, the venue holder/DJ/dance school may have to pay a separate 
fee to the composer etc.

What about moral copyright?
Well it is not an economic right in Australia. It gives due recognition 
(that is, no money exchanged) to the composer of the musical work etc, when 
the use of the sound recording has been made in a video for example; eg 
professional performers using tango music on Youtube that they are dancing 
to.   Moral rights are extinguished when normal copyright ceases.



If I am in error in my summary above, then even the organisations that 
collect license fees say on their websites that the subject is very complex, 
so I can be corrected.

It is a fascinating subject, with each country applying their own laws on 
the matter.

Vince
in Melbourne


-Original Message- 
From: Brick Robbins
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 10:41 AM
To: tango-l@MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Copyright for tango music?

There are a couple of different issues that are being confused here
(at least in the USA)


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Re: [Tango-L] Copyright for tango music?

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Not very well.

On using Google to translate "copyright tariffs" I get a mostly blank page.



Vince
In Melbourne

-Original Message- 
From: JOHN WROBLEWSKI
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2011 7:03 AM
To: Vince Bagusauskas ; tango-l@mit.edu ; Tony Rathburn
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Copyright for tango music?

What is the problem in Spanish??? Google translates it, so language barrier 
is only minimial
--- On Sun, 2/13/11, Tony Rathburn  wrote:

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[Tango-L] Copyright for tango music?

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Sorry but I thought I had replied to the list but it only went to Tony. 
Here is what I wrote to him:


Maybe it never expires in the US, but elsewhere it does:

How long does copyright last?
The current general rule – that copyright generally lasts for the life of
the creator plus 70 years –
came into operation on 1 January 2005. Before then, copyright generally
lasted for the life of the
relevant creator plus 50 years. There were various exceptions to this rule,
including:
• where a work was not published, performed or broadcast during the
creatorʼs lifetime; and
• where something was published anonymously or under a pseudonym, and the
identity of the
creator couldnʼt reasonably be ascertained.
(In each of these cases, copyright lasted for 50 years from the end of the
year the work was, with
permission, first published, performed or broadcast.)
The change in rules resulted from Australiaʼs commitments under the Free
Trade Agreement with
the US. However, Australia was not obliged to apply the new rules to
material in which copyright
had already expired.
This means that if, under the old rules, copyright had already expired by 1
January 2005, it stays
expired, and the material can, at least within Australia, be used freely.
(Note, however, that the
rules on duration of copyright vary from country to country.)
For detailed information on duration in Australia, see our information sheet
Duration of copyright.


from
http://www.copyright.org.au/admin/cms-acc1/_images/11961644624ce9fe69be8e0.pdf

Therefore in Australia at least most of the original recordings of Tangos
are now in the public domain.

Vince

I'll let Tony repost his response to me if he wishes.  However I will add 
further to my comments:

SADIAC only covers Argentina and the website is in Spanish, so finding out 
how and what it costs to morally license tango music is impossible to 
non-Spanish speakers.



In a subsequent post, a mention of ASCAP (AMERICAN SOCIETY OF COMPOSERS, 
AUTHORS AND PUBLISHERS) was made. From their website:

12. Aren't musicians, entertainers and DJ's responsible for obtaining 
permission for music they perform?


Some people mistakenly assume that musicians and entertainers must obtain 
licenses to perform copyrighted music or that businesses where music is 
performed can shift their responsibility to musicians or entertainers. The 
law says all who participate in, or are responsible for, performances of 
music are legally responsible. Since it is the business owner who obtains 
the ultimate benefit from the performance, it is the business owner who 
obtains the license. Music license fees are one of the many costs of doing 
business.


I must admit that trying to understand if ASCAP covers music being played 
milongas/practicas/dance classes is a bit beyond me.  However, it seems that 
the minimum fee that they charge per year is US$288.

Vince
In Melbourne


-Original Message- 
From: Tony Rathburn
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2011 4:38 AM
To: dwy...@gmail.com ; Tango-L
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Copyright for tango music?

officially, all tango music is copyrighted... and, the copyright never 
expires.
as within the US, an appropriate fee should be paid to copy, distribute, or 
play
for commercial purposes, including websites or milongas.  the organization 
that
covers licensing is BsAs is Sadiac.

tony



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Re: [Tango-L] invitation to dance

[Vince Bagusauskas]

>when a woman responds, she is 
>cut off or ignored...if this is how you dialogue, it must be an 
>indicator of how you dance( with  all the hand wringing and 
>complaining) totally self-focused  men, ignoring the woman's point of 
>view

A little slack directed our way is necessary.


I do think this is a “mens club”.  I often get personal replies from what I 
have posted on Tango L from women.  Some to thank me, some to disagree, some to 
give their account.  Maybe it is only that women are more prone to lurk on this 
list rather than to contribute?  And I admire the worthwhile contributions from 
certain women.

It is hard enough being a man trying to lead the dance when over the years 
reading Tango L the criticisms mostly from men directed to men are:

  a.. being told repeatedly that it will take you years to get to a standard 
whereby you will get a dance with the “better” women whereas the woman/follower 
will tell you she only needs a few months to learn how to tango well and can 
teach you at that stage; 
  b.. being lectured that maybe you have not taken enough lessons; 
  c.. being told you have been taking too many lessons with the wrong teacher/ 
style of tango; 
  d.. being told that the men overall in BsAs are better than you; 
  e.. being told you are not musical enough; and 
  f.. so on it goes.

Maybe the men are truly wanting to improve and are not getting the feedback 
they require, and are more open to discuss their experiences?

My 2 cents

Vince
In Melbourne

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Re: [Tango-L] "how can one attract more male dancers on the dancefloor?"

[Vince Bagusauskas]

I have heard this question for 10 years now off and on. 

You may consider this thread:

http://tango.romanvirdi.com/there-is-no-tango.htm


What about marketing tango to the male demographic as a dance where you can 
dance in close embrace? 


Vince
In Melbourne




-Original Message- 
From: Olivier Normandin 
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 12:46 PM 
To: tango-l@mit.edu 
Subject: [Tango-L] "how can one attract more male dancers on the dancefloor?" 

Bonjour,

I would like to talk about a subject that might be relevant to any  
Dancing community in general, any Tango community in particular: "how  
can one attract more male dancers on the dance floor?"
Does anyone have any idea?
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[Tango-L] Would you buy tango music if..........

[Vince Bagusauskas]

A friend of mine has stated that he asked the local tango group to invest in 
buying tango recordings, thus quadrupling the groups tango library, so as to 
give the various budding DJ’s more variety in music.  He was refused.  Money 
was not a problem it seems as the group had several thousand dollars in the 
bank.  The main reason why the request was refused was because the group 
relied upon a couple of DJ’s who bought their own music and never charged 
for their DJ services.  My friend was told he should do the same..

So I am wondering, do DJ’s around the world, including my home town of 
Melbourne, buy their music just for the love of it and expect nothing in the 
way of payment when called upon to DJ at a milonga?  And if you are a tango 
fan/DJ, how much do you think you have spent on tango music?

I’ll go first:  I think I have spent at least US$1,8000 in the last few 
years on tango music and have provide my services to a milonga/practica for 
free.


Vince
In  Melbourne 

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Re: [Tango-L] If you are a tango DJ, are you using a Netbbook?

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Thank you all!!!

In particular that tango DJ resource site and group.

And yes I am buying Keith's recordings-lots of them :)

Cheers

Vince
In Melbourne
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[Tango-L] If you are a tango DJ, are you using a Netbbook?

[Vince Bagusauskas]

I am considering getting something more portable than my laptop to DJ with. So 
I have been tempted by new Netbooks running Windows 7 Starter.  These are about 
half the price of an iPad and a quarter the price of an Macbook.

Thing is, what is the sound quality from the ear phone jack and are they up to 
the task?

Much appreciated for your views if you are a DJ.

Thanks

Vince
In Melbourne
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Re: [Tango-L] Learning from You Tube

[Vince Bagusauskas]

-Original Message- 
From: Mario 
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2011 11:58 AM 
To: TANGO-L 
Subject: [Tango-L] Learning from You Tube 

>At first seeing such a great resource I couldn't understand why sooo many were 
>warning NOT to study the dancing on these videos ...

Many teachers of dance, and some in tango, I have heard will look at Youtube 
videos to get inspiration to teach new moves. 

Is this breaking some sacred taboo?

Vince
In Melbourne
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Re: [Tango-L] Type A Tango

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Mario, Bora welcomes criticisms on her blog. Have you tried there or posted a 
comment on her Youtube link?

We have our own opinions about her dancing ability/style/enjoyment but prefer 
to keep it to ourselves.

She is a good writer but, when she focuses on her journey on lessons learnt, 
rather than on her experiences with the Romeoes of BsAs tango.

Vince
In Adelaide,
Wishing all a Merry Christmas



-Original Message- 
From: Mario 
Sent: Saturday, December 25, 2010 12:19 PM 
To: TANGO-L 
Subject: [Tango-L] Type A Tango 

I'm going to stick my neck out here..feel free to swing away.
Here is Bora's latest practice session posted a few hours ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xAlGZVf854 
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Re: [Tango-L] Type-A Tango

[Vince Bagusauskas]

I read through to back down to day 10 of her blog and was amazed and 
somewhat bored with her experiences as a foreigner and her many repetitive 
approaches by the locals wanting to get laid rather than enjoying a mere 
dance.


Vince
enjoying his break

-Original Message- 
From: Mario
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 8:08 AM
To: TANGO-L
Subject: [Tango-L] Type-A Tango

Here is an interesting Tango blog written by a young woman doing a month
in her Mecca of Tango, BsAs 

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Re: [Tango-L] Some thoughts on connection

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Yesterday in a class, a couple of teachers (one Argentinian) talked about 
“leaders” and “followers”.  Coincidently, one thing mentioned was that as the 
woman becomes experienced she is able to “invite” the man to perform a move.

Vince 
In Melbourne


-Original Message- 
From: Sergey Kazachenko 
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 12:46 AM 
To: Pat Petronio 
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu 
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Some thoughts on connection 


I usually avoid saying "leading" and "following" for exactly the
reasons you mention.
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Re: [Tango-L] Some thoughts on connection

[Vince Bagusauskas]

But then there is the Argentine teacher who a couple of years ago said at at 
festival in Sydney, Australia.  That there are no “leaders” and followers” only 
“men” or “women” and went on to demonstrate that in the context of the dance.  
He had the (hetro) women swooning.   

-Original Message- 
From: Pat Petronio 
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 11:14 PM 
To: tango-l@mit.edu 
Subject: [Tango-L] Some thoughts on connection 

Words are powerful in influencing behaviour. 
"Leading" & "following" can create a different mindset to "inviting" & 
"responding", 
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[Tango-L] The truth of Tango. It hurts.

[Vince Bagusauskas]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQ2u-xLu-QI&feature=player_embedded

Enjoy

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[Tango-L] Is it just me?

[Vince Bagusauskas]

For weeks going to 

http://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/index.html 

has not worked on Explorer, Chrome or Safari.

Vince
In Melbourne 
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Re: [Tango-L] Cabeceo

[Vince Bagusauskas]

>
>  so often the cortinas are very short or non existent and the floor does 
> not clear between tanda's.
>
> Peter Rose


How short is short and what is the ideal length?  I would say 30 seconds. 
However, I have seen it stretch out to 2 minutes.

On the matter of cabeceo in general,  I doubt it would work at many milongas 
in Australia, because either for seating arrangement or because of the very 
turned down light levels.  And oh some women who take their glasses off for 
the night :)

Vince
In Melbourne 

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Re: [Tango-L] the fear of close embrace

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Yes but would they rather be dancing with their own age group or not?

My experience is that the men have more  of an issue with this than the
women: they prefer to dance and socialize with their own age group.

Vince
In Melbourne

-Original Message-

You should come to Buenos Aires and watch the glow on the faces of the
"younger females" 
who just got invited to dance by one of the "old men" milongueros--if their
personal boundaries were being invaded, they certainly weren't showing it.

Shahrukh
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Re: [Tango-L] Social-ethical behaviour and protocol

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Hi Cherie,

I am reporting what a tourist has observed.

I warned a friend before she went to BsAs that the codigos are to be
expected and to work with them.  After going out to many places, including
the famous and traditional milongas, her overall impression was that they
approached her like they would in Australia: because she is a tourist she
was treated differently to the regular locals.   

Vince
In Melbourne

From: macfro...@aol.com [mailto:macfro...@aol.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, 1 September 2010 3:38 AM
To: vy...@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social-ethical behaviour and protocol

Vince, this is so inaccurate! 

If the "porteno" is under 30, he probably goes to practicas where anything
goes. 

As a dancer who has lived and taught tango with my milonguero parter in BsAs
for many years, let me assure you that the codigos are still respected and
observed in all of the traditional milongas. 

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Re: [Tango-L] Social-ethical behavior and protocol

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Sergio said,

>Milonga codes were developed over the years for a reason. Codes are not old
fashioned capricious inventions; they all exist for an important reason.
 
>When you ignore them you are losing 90% of what Argentine Tango is about.

I have it on good authority from someone who has returned and experienced
*many* milongas in BsAs that most portenoes do not use the codes.  In fact
they approach women as men do so in Australia.  And yes, there are sleazes
amongst them.

The notions of romantic codes have been lost I think upon the modern
generation.


BTW, it is Niki, not Nick

Vince
In Melbourne



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Re: [Tango-L] Socio-ethical behavior and protocol

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Sergio,

The manners you highlight, must be reserved to certain milongas in BsAs and
for the locals.  It was not what I observed how they treated the group I was
travelling with to BsAs or to other tourists.  On the whole the men behaved
as men do here in Australia.  Yes I did observe the cabeco in some milongas.

Vince
In Melbourne

-Original Message-
From: tango-l-boun...@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-boun...@mit.edu] On Behalf Of
Sergio Vandekier
Sent: Thursday, 19 August 2010 1:06 AM
To: Tango-L List
Subject: [Tango-L] Socio-ethical behavior and protocol

This behavior is considered very poor manners. The invitation to dance must
be done with a stare and a nod (cabeceo).
 
Only poor dancers, or inconsiderate men come from the side or from behind to
ask a lady to dance. 
 


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Re: [Tango-L] Socio-ethical behaviour and protocol

[Vince Bagusauskas]

-Original Message-
From: tango-l-boun...@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-boun...@mit.edu] On Behalf Of
Sergio Vandekier
Sent: Wednesday, 18 August 2010 12:39 AM
To: Tango-L List
Subject: [Tango-L] Socio-ethical behavior and protocol

>Is this so difficult to understand?
 
>Knowing all this, and I will say this with the most respect for your point
of view,... if you wish to dance tango as if it was fox-trot, please do and
have fun, but do not >try to understand our perspective, as this may be an
exercise in futility . People dance tango for many different reasons.


Sergio, maybe not all men from your parts approach tango in a scholarly and
with a pureness of the heart way adhering to some mythical codigo.  Some
approach it as a pick-up joint, hitting upon visitors in within a very short
time.  I have read literature about this "shark" behaviour happening,
warning women before they go.  

It is not a behaviours unique to portenoes, I think.  I have seen it happen
in Australia on visitors.

Boys will be boys, no matter where you live.

Vince
In Melbourne




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Re: [Tango-L] Social-ethical behaviors and protocols

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Trini wrote:

>I love it when my husband chases the opposite sex at milongas -

I met a woman once who said shrugged and accepts the fact her husband likes
to flirt at milongas.  He is a popular guy and she had to try hard as a
dancer to snatch him.



Vince
In Melbourne




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Re: [Tango-L] Music preferences

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Thanks for all of your reply.  Really useful.

I think that Australians prefer instrumental more so too.



-Original Message-
From: tango-l-boun...@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-boun...@mit.edu] On Behalf Of
Joe Grohens
Sent: Sunday, 15 August 2010 1:51 AM
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Cc: Joe Grohens
Subject: [Tango-L] Music preferences

 > From: Vince Bagusauskas  >  > When you attend a
milonga (or a practica for that matter) what proportion of  > the music do
you want to hear with  lyrics?
I have a small addition to this thread.
At the "Chicago Tango Week" of July this year, Horacio Godoy gave a workshop
on DJing.
During questions, a participant asked Horacio how much he uses songs with
singers versus instrumental. Below I am transcribing from a video recording.
Horacio Godoy: I use more with singers. Because in Argentina they prefer the
lyrics. They want to dance lyrics (gesturing towards his
ear) with the music.
Questioner A: 60%? 70%?
Godoy: Yeah, yeah. Maybe more.
Questioner B: Would you do the same in the U.S.?
Godoy: I do the same here. Maybe in Rome (?), because sometimes in Europe or
the United States they prefer just the orchestra, not the singer.
Questioner C: In the same tanda, would you stay all instrumental, or all
with the cantor, or do you mix?
Godoy: It depends on the orchestra. For example, Calo, instrumental is very
different than Calo with Beron. Very different. [Di Sarli], it's different
but not a lot, and D'Arienzo, it can be the same feeling.  
OK? It depends on the orchestra what happens with the instrumental or the
singers. When I play the mix, I try to play two and three, or two and two.

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[Tango-L] Music preferences

[Vince Bagusauskas]

When you attend a milonga (or a practica for that matter) what proportion of
the music do you want to hear with  lyrics?

At some events I have attended over the last three years there seems to be
musical preference towards tango music that has a strong beat and without
lyrics.  It is my belief that the poetic and cultural history of tango also
comes through the vast amount of tango music that has lyrics. 

So I am interested in your thoughts as it will help with my own musical
selections.

Vince
In Melbourne

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Re: [Tango-L] Tango marathons

[Vince Bagusauskas]

To: tango-l@MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango marathons
From: Tango22 
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 10:16:38 +1000
Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
In-reply-to: 
List-archive: 
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References: 
Sender: tango-l-boun...@mit.edu


John said:

>Sydney Salon Tango Festival  - September - October

You forgot "Tango in the Spring" in Canberra over the same weekend.


>I'm getting the feeling the organisers of national events and one-off 
>touring teachers will need to be very selective, coordinate nationally 
>with other organisers and make sure that their offerings are excellent 
>quality to succeed.


A clearing house of events nationally is never going to happen.  It would
mean that "teachers" and the few clubs would need to band together and form
a Australian Tango Federation of sorts similar to what they do in ballroom,
to regulate the syllabus, qualifications, competitions etc.  At least
informally I believe in Melbourne teachers talk to each other.   If BsAs
had such a Federation then maybe Australia would follow in its footsteps. 

I have heard that of local milongas that had waned in the past couple of
years.  So to me any event that attracts people to make a critical mass of
dancers, can only do the community good.

Vince
In Melbourne

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[Tango-L] Tango marathons

[Vince Bagusauskas]

With Melbourne holding separate 9 and 20 hour celebratory tango marathons
(including dancing, performances, competitions) in the next few months,  I
wonder what is the longest marathon you have ever been too and what were
your experiences and thoughts about it all?

Personally, I think it is an opportunity to have people from across the
country come together and enjoy not only the dancing but the also the
socializing.

Vince
In Melbourne

(soon to be very tired) 

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Re: [Tango-L] The Basic Elements of Tango

[Vince Bagusauskas]

It was said thus in relation to Chicago Tango Week:

"The obsessive attention paid to movement possibilities in tango workshops
around 
the world is not improving tango dancing. Milonga dance floors have become 
increasingly chaotic. Instead of wasting their money supporting instructors
and 
festival organizers who are misrepresenting tango, tangueros should travel
to 
Buenos Aires regularly and observe how the masters of tango social dancing,
the 
milongueros, dance tango in the cultural environment where tango social
dancing 
has evolved and still thrives today."





If you look at their website, which is atrociously slow to load, you will
see that Narcotango is the featured band.

http://chicagotangoweek.org/

Does this not suggest to you that the festival is Nuevo orientated?  If so,
I do not have a problem with the descriptions, as I would expect to have
lots of people coming to the festival labelling themselves higher than their
true abilities whatever their preference is, and thus expect many crap
dancers going. 

Would that stop me?  Probably not, but if it I was expecting to dance the
way they dance in BsAs and travel there often, maybe it would.

Vince
In Melbourne





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Re: [Tango-L] Recognizing Tango Music

[Vince Bagusauskas]

My Sony Ericson mobile (cell) phone has a music identification program on
it.   It categorises the tango music I have on it into 4 quadrants  that
progressively range from zero to Happy, Sad, Fast and Slow.  Sometimes, if I
am wanting to listen to happier music I will use the program and move the
cursor to the happier quadrants.  It does not separate the different types
of music (M/T/V) from each other, so it is interesting to note what the
program identifies as happy or sad music.

Vince
In Melbourne


>Any takers or thoughts?

>Shahrukh

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[Tango-L] A complaint about the dearth of real tango in BsAs

[Vince Bagusauskas]

This was posted on a blog:

http://tangospam.typepad.com/tangospam_la_vida_con_deb/2010/06/the-secret-so
ciety.html

Thoughts?

Vince
In Melbourne

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[Tango-L] Practica X - anyone been there lately?

[Vince Bagusauskas]

In programming practica playlists,  I have also been reflecting on my one
time experience at Practica X whereby they played a cortina every so often.
But I cannot recall how often and long or whether it came after a certain a
milonga/vals tanda.  Anyone been there recently and can shed some light on
it?   

Vince
In Melbourne



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[Tango-L] Bachatango

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Well I spoke to my Melbourne based salsa friend about Kizomba and
Bachatango.

Kizomba had a small following in Sydney a couple of years ago.  The hip
grinding was a put off and seems to have been replaced by Zouk (where the
ladies have to have long hair).

Bachatango is only a small subset of the popular bachata (which in my humble
opinion also involves hip grinding).  My  salsa friend did say the one class
he went to, the instructor said "Don't try this at tango. You will be
laughed at".  I guess that would be correct.


Vince
In Melbourne

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[Tango-L] Bachatango

[Vince Bagusauskas]

With us being altered to the new craze of Kizomba, lets not forget that
there exists Bachatango.Examples follows:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwPOFKQt_so&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEQS_ykaW6U&feature=related

In the last couple of years this fusion of tango (cough) and bachata has
exploded. 

However, I can see elements danced in todays Nuevo tango within this
particular form of dance.  For example a soltada.

Can this form of dance become common on the milonga dance floor in the next
5 years?

Vince
In Melbourne




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Re: [Tango-L] Kizomba

[Vince Bagusauskas]

And watching this Kizomba-bachata hybrid, I am reminded of non tango milonga 
(gasp):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDpf7RCyYYg&feature=related


Yep definitely will take off amongst the tango community

Vince
in Melbourne 

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[Tango-L] Why are you dancing tango if they are not playing tango?

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Only a few bands I have heard in Australia come anywhere near to the typical 
Golden Age band sound.  Doubt any ever will as who can afford the have *any* 
type of big band play these days.

I would like to pay a little more and hear at the very least a bandoneon 
player in a band as it gives authenticity to the music.  But in Australia 
there are very few players and only one band (in Melbourne, a family affair 
from South American extraction) that has one.

Also, seems like many comments have already stated, the local bands I have 
heard, play for themselves, rather than for the dancers who enjoy the sounds 
of the Golden Age.  Some bands, because of their various combination of 
unique instruments  (try having an electric guitar, organ or harp in your 
band), vocal  style and arrangements are difficult to interpret and thus 
dance too.  Music that we are familiar with, having heard a hundred times 
before hand, the leader knows what is coming ahead how to hit the right 
accents and I followers appreciate that from comments I get.  Try doing that 
to some weird Piazolla piece (for example) and the leaders job has just 
become so much more difficult than it already is.

When music is not danceable in the traditional sense (you may insert nuevo 
here if you like) or the singer is just plain off key (which happened to me 
here recently), then it time to go to the bar or have a toilet break and not 
delude oneself that you are listening to tango music "tipica".

So what do others think?  Do you go to any band than plays tango or do you 
have standards?

Vince
In Melbourne
 

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Re: [Tango-L] Why are you dancing tango if you don't like

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Message: 4
Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 20:29:08 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz 
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Why are you dancing tango if you don't like
tango?
To: Tango List 
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes


>I've noticed that some of the most fanatical Traditional Tango Music fans
started out hating the music


Tom,

Everything you (and especially what Trini said in her closing remarks) said
in your post I agree with.

I too could not understand the music at 1st and walked away from tango for a
while.  Then came back and still could understand it.  

In a new city I have found a better appreciation of the music and listen to
the thousands of tracks I have as often as often as I can including in the
car.  Love discovering the underlying "possibilities" of the music
(including in the not so popular tunes) even if I cannot translate it to a
move at times.

If anyone wants to really understand the music and the mood of the dancers,
get them to DJ.  

Vince
In Melbourne
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Re: [Tango-L] Assassination Tango

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Steve,  the young teacher.  See imdb.com

I have been contacted off post to be told that Luciana (his wife) and Duvall
did not meet over tango, but that he taught her.   Don't ever trust what you
find over the Internet!!!

Nice little scene where Duvall talks to a dancer in Spanish, on what does
tango mean.  But it does involve a lot of violent murders. :(

Vince
In Melbourne

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[Tango-L] Assassination Tango

[Vince Bagusauskas]

After coming home from a milonga, we sat down and turned on the television
to see that a replay of Assassination Tango (2002) was on.  

The interesting fact was that the star Robert Duvall is a tango dancer and
that he also had his current wife star in the movie.  They met over tango
and she is 41 years younger than him.

Nice


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Re: [Tango-L] Rate of movement on crowded floors

[Vince Bagusauskas]

A search on Youtube for "crowded milonga" and restricted then to BsAs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVV83rj9aOc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjP6wagMIG0

They don't seem that fast to me.  And reflects the experience I had over
there.



Vince
In Melbourne


  



--

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 06:38:37 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" 
Subject: [Tango-L] Rate of movement on crowded floors
To: Tango-L 
Message-ID: <472646.15258...@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hola listeros!


>.  In BsAs, however, the LOD continues at its usual pace, even if it's
heavily packed.  


  

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[Tango-L] Floorcraft

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Well this is nice that an organiser goes to the trouble of posting "advice"
on what is acceptable before a tango festival:

http://tucsontangofestival.com/category/tucson-tango-festival/floor-craft-tu
cson-tango-festival/#floorcraft

I doubt it would have prevented what I saw a few weeks ago when the leader
walked backwards against the line of dance for around 4 metres. Kid you not.

Vince
In Melbourne
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[Tango-L] Zotto and 8CB

[Vince Bagusauskas]

OK sorry if this has been spoken off in the thread on the recent 8CB, but I 
hardly read it.

What I was doing was looking for references to Osvaldo Zotto and one of his 
ex partners.  But in doing so, I came across this:

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=cadiutori#p/u/25/rcwHwMslJR8

It shows Zotto teaching the 8CB. Thought you would be interested in it.

Anyway of more interest to me is his absolute magnificence in seeing him do 
this in slow motion:

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=cadiutori#p/u/24/5BcFBu21U7c

Cheers

Vince
in Melbourne


 

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[Tango-L] Tango in film and what is traditional?

[Vince Bagusauskas]

This is what is written on Wikipedia regarding "Tango"

 "The "milonguero" style is characterised by a very close 
embrace, small steps, and syncopated rhythmic footwork. It is based on the 
petitero or caquero style of the crowded downtown clubs of the '50s.

  In contrast, the tango that originated in the family clubs 
of the suburban neighbourhoods (Villa Urquiza/Devoto/Avellaneda etc.) 
emphasizes long elegant steps, and complex figures. In this case the embrace 
may be allowed to open briefly, to permit execution of the complicated 
footwork.

 The complex figures of this style became the basis for a 
theatrical performance style of Tango seen in the touring stage shows. For 
stage purposes, the embrace is often very open, and the complex footwork is 
augmented with gymnastic lifts, kicks, and drops." (If you disagree, you are 
welcome to edit Wikipedia)

Therefore based on the above, if the floor is not crowded or one is putting 
on an authentic milonga from the 30's and 40's, the dancers would be in 
their rights to dance against the LOD. A bold statement yes but what is the 
evidence to state otherwise?

Recent posts on beats/8CB has prompted me to do some research over the last 
few days, so I have been trawling Youtube and Google Video looking for 
dancers doing tango at a milonga, up to the period of the late 1950's. 
There are *lots* of clips of tango singers (how unlike today) but nothing 
in the way of film taken in a milonga.  There are therefore only a handful 
of clips from movies of the 1930's and 40's, of dancers putting on a bit of 
a tango dance.  Invariably the dance seems to be a bit of a mismatch of the 
candombe*/milonga style with lots of space around the dancers, allowing the 
dancers to step any which way.  I grant you that the dancers were putting on 
a show for the movie audience and thus the dance might be more showier than 
what would normally happen.

Therefore, if anyone can point me to film clips taken at real milongas from 
the proto- and Golden Age of tango please post the links.

Regards,

Vince
in Melbourne

*Wiki suggests that candombe is Uruguayan tango
 

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[Tango-L] re self proclaimed teachers etc.......................

[Vince Bagusauskas]

I apologise for my last out of context reply.

I replied to all that included Tango-L, in plain text.   I was not aware
that the post by Joanne had not appeared on Tango-L since it had been sent 
to me and to Tango-L
by rich text and was thus rejected.  I have included her message that she 
had meant to Tango-L below.


To Jack,
The competitions are not as far as I can tell run by any real association of 
teachers, teaching a syllabus.  What I fear, is that if you try and 
standardize the syllabus (who will decide?) and get accredited teachers, you 
will change Tango forever, in the bad way that ballroom has gone.

Nor, I do not approve of the competitions in BsAs.  At the very least, I 
believe stage tango as not mainstream in the social life of BsAs. It is a 
recent construct to satisfy the foreign set.  Historians can correct me on 
that.

Cheers,

Vince
in Melbourne

--

Having some sort of national association does nothing more than create some 
kind of standard that others can choose to
follow or not.  In dressage riding, there was a similar situation years ago. 
You see, anyone at all could hang out their shingle
and offer riding lessons.  There was no standard.  And many of us know that 
we paid very good money for a very long time
in good faith to people who had no business teaching dressage riding.  Then 
the USDF composed standardized
credentials that an instructor could aquire by taking practical tests and if 
they passed the tests, then they could
use that credential in their portfolio.  At first, many instructors (good 
and bad as well) pooh-poohed the idea, saying that
some certificate would not make them a better instructor.  But the system 
has stood the test of time.
IMHO, it is time for the tango community to look into such a system.
Joanne Pogros
Cleveland, Ohio



 

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Re: [Tango-L] re self proclaimed teachers. If we can't lick them teach them (long)

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Sarcasm?  Seriously, tango could become an Olympic sport.  Therefore bodies 
should seek to codify tango to thus give some a delusion of grandeur.  It 
worked for ballroom thus I see no reason why it could not work for tango.

Vince
in Melbourne





--
From: "Tony Rathburn" 
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 10:18 PM
To: "Vince Bagusauskas" 
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] re self proclaimed teachers. If we can't lick them 
teach them (long)

>
> --- On Tue, 1/12/10, Vince Bagusauskas  wrote:
>
> From: Vince Bagusauskas 
>

>
>
> having said that, i really, really hope Vince's comment was meant as 
> humor, with a touch of sarcasm for good measure.
>
 

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[Tango-L] re self proclaimed teachers. If we can't lick them teach them (long)

[Vince Bagusauskas]

timmy said:

>Lets create a syllabus of tango steps, elements of tango, moves,
>of what a good teacher should teach and in the correct order in which
>things should be taught in.


Something like each country having a national association of Tango Teachers 
that accredits teachers.  The national associations would then become 
members of a governing World Tango Council/Federation which sets a syllabus?

Pretty soon tango dancers will demand to compete in the Olympics.  Like 
ballroom dancers still hope for.


Vince
in Melbourne 

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[Tango-L] Subject: Re: [SA] RE: San Diego close embrace Festival 2010

[Vince Bagusauskas]

 Huck said:

>A lot of
>traditional folks stayed away from his festival this  year and in the 
>future I
>think that number could grow.

Just wondering, can anyone suggest any festival, anywhere where dance 100% 
of the traditional folk will be satisfied 100% of the time?

Vince
in Melbourne 

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Re: [Tango-L] [SA] RE: San Diego close embrace Festival 2010

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Meister Richard KÃhnlein  said:

>Here some text fragments of an older Website:

>http://web.archive.org/web/20070907224305/www.sandiegotangofestival.com/Jan2007/


Contrast the new Website with the present Phoenix fest:

http://phoenixtangofestival.com/


Vince
in Melbourne 

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[Tango-L] More on close embrace festivals

[Vince Bagusauskas]

With the talk of some dancers spoiling the close embrace San Diego tango 
festival,  I thought this edited response to a question I had on the 
advertised close embrace Phoenix tango festival is worthwhile relating:

"... there is good and proper instruction.  And  by setting a good 
example in our dancing. We are not making this a "closed" event. We are not 
planning on "controlling" the event. Rather we are trying to set the 
exemplary stage for the softer and gentler side of tango close 
embrace.close embrace change the dancing in Denver and San Diego 
and I dream of exposing Phoenix and Arizona to more of the softer close 
embrace style of dancing...come knowing this is not an closed elite 
event but an opportunity to show those without as much exposure to close 
embrace what they are missing. Hence my plan for a bit larger floor than 
typical for close embrace."

So instead of excluding the gate crashers, seems that Phoenix wants to 
expose and hopefully educate the masses to close embrace.

This is an interesting development don't you think?

Since the problems of bad dancing as related by this list seems to occur 
mostly outside of BsAs, maybe more festivals should promote themselves as 
"Close Embrace X Tango Festival", rather than just "X Tango Festival".


Vince
in Melbourne
 

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Re: [Tango-L] Subject: Review of Practica X

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Excellent review Shahrukh.  What I suspected that it is not a true practica. 
So where do all the nuevo dancers hang-out? :)

What about current reviews of other practicas in BsAs from you and/or 
others?

Vince
in Melbourne
Enjoying his break 

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[Tango-L] Who to blame for the "bad" dancers ?

[Vince Bagusauskas]

If it was not for the renaissance of tango and in particular the fantasia 
shows and competitions in BsAs, would there be a nuevo tango following 
today?

For those who read this list and want to preserve social tango dancing, 
maybe as promoters/organizers of festivals/milongas you should decline from 
having individual couples putting on demos* thus encouraging them to display 
the 'crowd pleasing steps' that are not strictly tango, that the crowd then 
feels obliged to learn.

If a demo has to be held, have several couples dance on the floor at once, 
thus forcing them to restrain themselves and show a semblance of social 
dancing.

But I guess there is no money for promoters in that.

My 2c



*For the record, these days, demos do not excite me as they once did: I tend 
to do something else when it is on.


Vince
In Melbourne
Enjoying his break. 

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Re: [Tango-L] Tango-L] The Definition of Tango Nuevo (1 of 2)

[Vince Bagusauskas]

  Shahrukh said:

 "And people who dance "nuevo" do so because they like the way it 
looks and/or the way it feels has a missing element for them."


>From my observations, that explains why it seems so many women dance it in 
my community.

There are plenty of Youtube clips of nuevo teachers showing their moves 
without anyone around them and therefore 'stretching' to occupy the 
available space. There are not any clips that I can find, of general nuevo 
dancers (or these teachers) dancing in a crowded milonga and thus disrupting 
the energy of the milonga.  If there were, and they were more prominently 
broadcast, maybe it would be worthwhile?



Vince
In Melbourne
Enjoying his break. 

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[Tango-L] Nuevo versus the rest

[Vince Bagusauskas]

> From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) 
> 
> I can't believe this argument still continues.  >

too true.  



Is there nothing else that can be discussed?

Like why there is not more Guerilla Tango?

Vince 
in Melbourne,

Offering you all a very Merry Christmas (or whatever) for 2009. 
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[Tango-L] No Nuevo (as a style) - according to the Naveiras

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Interesting difference in titles from the Spanish to the English versions 
for the article too.

"Federico: I like all styles, except the "new tango" which doesn't exist for 
me. What was danced in the '40s was more modern than what was danced in the 
'20s, there's always been something newer than what was before."

Yet their poses in the photos suggests "new tango".   Interesting.

This article and a few others lately seem to be saying the same message of 
redefining the nuevo style. Is this a blinkered view of tango, or am I the 
one who is blind?

Vince
in Melbourne

 

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[Tango-L] Subject: Tango on New Years

[Vince Bagusauskas]

There are tango dancers that do other types of dances.  I know of one place 
in Wellington, NZ that has both a Salsa and a tango "room" on at the same 
time and some dancers go from room to room, depending upon their mood. 
Another venue for NYE is having a tango party away from the madding crowd, 
spiced up with some salsa and rock and roll, but predominately tango.  So 
maybe your tango room may attract some punters.

 

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[Tango-L] Subject: Re: Interview: Chicho on tango nuevo, style, new music, and the current direction of tango

[Vince Bagusauskas]

With respect, Chico does not speak for what true social Argentine tango is. 
He speaks for a form of tango that he is doing very nicely with by way of 
performances and teaching. 

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Re: [Tango-L] Tanguera/o occupation?

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Jack said:

>I'd agree 100%. In fact, if you could put military and tango together,

It would probably be like the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pojGjRa13uE

Only in  Australia...sigh 
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Re: [Tango-L] Tanguera/o occupation?

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Myk  said:

> Picture a rock and roller, or a salsa dancer.  Don't see many in tango. 
> Nor
> do I recall meeting any people that work irregular shift hours like in the
> military doing tango.
You've met me. I work shift hours.

But being an IT person negates that I think.  Still in the town of Canberra 
with a high percentage of military types and military colleges, I don't seem 
to have met any doing tango.  This topic got me wondering why: maybe because 
a gregarious, can do attitude does not mix well with the of tango?  Most of 
the tango dancers I have met are reserved and have a calmer nature.  Would 
that be most peoples experience?

> And we have
at least one other shift worker (who has far more irregular shifts than
I do) dancing tango in Canberra, who you also know.


Possibly, but I do not know to whom you are referring as it was a long time 
ago now. I could count very few dancers in Canberra who came from what are 
called blue collar jobs.  I knew one person employed in a desk job in the 
aviation sector in Canberra (but doing university studies in a language) who 
has "irregular shift hours" who finds it very difficult to make it to tango 
events and thus drifted in to other things too.

Vince
in Melbourne

 

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Re: [Tango-L] Tanguera/o occupation?

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Only a regular engineer here.

But yes many IT types  in tango, and university types doing/done doctorates 
in physiology/linguistics/robotics.  Might be something to do with a 
comfortable lifestyle and free time on hand?

Picture a rock and roller, or a salsa dancer.  Don't see many in tango.  Nor 
do I recall meeting any people that work irregular shift hours like in the 
military doing tango.

Met a botanist once doing tango but never an organic chemist.


Vince



 

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[Tango-L] Tango tradicional and.....

[Vince Bagusauskas]

 >I am not planning to get into any argument with you.

> Respectfully, Sergio
_

Thanks Sergio for the clarification in that and your off list email.  Seems 
that we have been talking at cross purposes, in no small part because there 
is no definitive work that I can find on the Web that explains what were the 
actual traditional figures danced in tango in the Golden Age.  Also the 
official rules from the World Tango Championships explain what is allowed in 
salon, that differs alarmingly from your list of traditional tango figures. 
No wonder I was confused!!

Your commentary and youtube clips and my observations tells me that there is 
no  problem over here with regards to nuevo dancers.  It seems to be a 
significant problem for you dancers in other countries.  If there are good 
nuevo dancers in Australia, they must have left for greener pastures 
overseas as I don't see any that fit your definition.

Thank you for the youtube clip of the famous nuevo dancer as listed on 
Wikipedia under Argentine Tango, who I gather has a style that no-one wants 
to see at a milonga not billed "alternative".  Maybe there is a market for 
"No Nuevo" stickers?

Thanks again.

___

Well I am off reading this list for a time, as my partner and I are headed 
to the Land of the Long White Cloud for a tango holiday, sampling several 
milongas and practicas.

Vince 

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Re: [Tango-L] "Truth" in tango advertising

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Ron said:

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D01fr8UN0NQ
>
> It's a demonstration so maybe a little more 'showy' than how regular 
> people
> dance in the milongas. It's not milonguero but I'd still call it mostly
> 'traditional'.
>

>Yes, it's a little bit showy (the boleos were a little too large), but it 
>was a demo. If this was the extent of which we had to deal with in US 
>milongas, I don't think we'd be fighting so much for our space and talking 
>about milonga separation or milonga rules. Everyone in the video was 
>respecting the line of dance.


Agree with Ron (and Jack and Sergio).  There are a few nuevo moves in the 
dance that would not have passed as what is allowed in salon style at the 
recent world tango championships (eg leg above the knee).   Would they have 
been allowable at a milonga that bills itself as "close embrace"?

A couple of real milongas in Seoul, that incorporate a few nuevo moves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKgvdEMt2ks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vOIKrjWHGI
Many of the coupless would not be tagged as doing salon or millonguero 
style.


A Seoul milonga that was identified as "alternative" with what appears to be 
respectful dancers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlY6-sDc614

No need to label a milonga if everyone is respectful.  And if not, the host 
can do something about it I guess.

Have a good day.
 

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Re: [Tango-L] "Truth" in tango advertising

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Well Jack,

I don't live in that city anymore.

What city do you dance in?  I would like to google/youtube it to see what 
styles of tango are danced at the milongas you attend and then report back.

But we digress: why not in advertise what you will accept at  your milonga 
in clear and precise terms?Can we agree on that?

Cheers
 

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[Tango-L] "Truth" in tango advertising

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Charles said:

>Saying that it is "classic tango,"

You changed it from "classical tango music" to "classical tango".  Hope that 
was because you realize the music alone wont get the sort of atmosphere you 
want.

>"milonguero tango" is no less specific

It will upset the tango salon dancers :-)  BTW, a 1990's coined term

>than calling it "alternative." It is clear what they all mean.

To you and me maybe, but to the vast majority of dancers who do not read 
Tango-L, no it means nothing.  A bit of explanation of what is expected 
without all the mythical reverence would go a long way in educating the 
masses.

>and not expect to hear the same kind of music.

Dancers who like to do neuvo moves don't really care what music they dance 
to.

>This has nothing to do with nuevo or traditional styles or the country in 
>which they are danced.

I have to respectfully disagree.  If the majority of dancers in a city are 
taught nuevo elements, they may have an expectation that it is OK to dance 
such elements at any milonga.  What teacher will tell their students, sure 
you can learn all these cool moves, but you wont be welcome at any regular 
milonga that you care to attend in this city.  I bet none. Not the city I 
initially learnt tango in.


Regards


 

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[Tango-L] Truth in Tango Advertising & Tango Detente

[Vince Bagusauskas]

>What do traditionalists need to do to let attendees know that at their 
>milongas, one adheres to a line of dance, keeps feet on the floor, and 
>generally respects the space of other dancers on the floor?

It would be good as part of educating what traditionalists and nuevoists 
(sic?) want is to advertise what you are seeking to attain.  Just saying it 
is "Tango milonguero" or "classical tango music" will not on its own create 
the sort of atmosphere you want.  However, "alternative milongas" says very 
clearly to everyone what is allowed I think.

>Tango milonguero dancers have 'traditional' milongas with 'all classic 
>tango music'. The classes they teach are 'Argentine Tango'.
I see a problem with this. A majority of tangoists are not Argentine, do not 
tango in Argentina on a regular basis and some never go.  They are 
influenced on what happens around their local city.  90% of the tango 
workshops I have gone to in Australia have taught nuevo elements.  I had a 
quick look at the Berlin and Montreal tango festivals and their programs had 
a lot of nuevo.  Even Denver had a "Nuevo milonguero classics(?!!!)" 
workshop. So the majority of the worlds tango dancers believe that nuevo 
moves are OK at *any* milonga is what I am proposing.

Previously, in all seriousness I said milonga hosts/organisers/clubs should 
set-up a sandwich board outside the door on what "codes" are to be respected 
at their milongas.  Alternative ways to educate (promotion/"truth in 
advertising"/image) the vast majority of tango dancers outside Argentina and 
who never read this list (actually how many subscribe to this list are 
there: 1000?) can be thought of, like reminders in newsletters, sheets of 
paper on the tables etc.  It will take time, but eventually there will be an 
understanding of what is expected in each tango milonga outside BsAs.

People will then vote with their feet on whether they want to go to certain 
milongas that promotes "older style tango" keeping feet on the floor etc. 
Some milongas will die as people decide the music and image does not agree 
them, but the as long as the remaining people are having fun, that is OK.

Fair enough?
 

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[Tango-L] Subject: Re: No place left to dance

[Vince Bagusauskas]

>We have seven milongas to try, each with a somewhat different focus.
>All of them are oriented to social dancing, i.e. non-show tango


The point being that "alternative music" implies nuevo moves, that terrifies 
some traditionalist people and thus causes much debate.

However, if the term "alternative milonga" keeps the traditionalists away, 
it gives more room for nuevo.

Sort of a win-win situation then.

:-)

 

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Re: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES (Australia)

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Myk in Canberra said:
>Separate milongas is really not a solution to any problem I'm aware of.
>Certainly not where I live.


I have to agree.

In my 8 months in Melbourne, I would say a third of the classes over the 4 
or 5 schools cater for nuevo students at the intermediate/advanced level. 
Most of the tango dancers do nuevo at milongas.  There is at least one well 
patronised Saturday milonga that advertises to play a mix of nuevo with 
traditional stuff.  The popular Sunday practica (jeez we even had a couple 
dancing with a baby in arms today! :-) ) always has a splash of weird nuevo 
music.  Even the wonderfully eclectic Martin plays nuevo after midnight at 
the Thursday milonga.

In Canberra, the two biggest tango schools teach nuevo styles and have nuevo 
practicas, including a lot of alternative music.  From what I understand, 
the latest nuevo milonga was as a result of dissatisfaction in the musical 
direction at the older tango venues and from my reports Myk, the numbers 
were higher than what the older venues have been able to attract of late. 
Why the schism?  Can't they cater for all tastes as they do in Melbourne?

When I was living in Canberra, I was told by women how the some men were 
predictable in their dancing.  In Melbourne, I have heard similar.  Also, 
better men (in my eyes) are tagged as being minimalistic in their style or 
are known to repeat the same steps over and over.  Does this mean that women 
can get bored and want the diversity of nuevo steps?  From what I have heard 
yes: they want interesting combinations and musicality too, and not just to 
traditional tango: if the guys are up to it.

However, even if there was no nuevo music ever played again in Melbourne, 
nuevo would still be danced at each and every milonga as this is what 
happens now.   I believe this is what tango dancers in Australia really want 
and the idea that a milonga can replicate what happened in BsAs in the 1940's 
has truly had it's used by date.  Laughingly, I have also heard 1st hand 
from certain organisers that nuevo is not danced in BsAs, from people who 
have been there.  Really?!!!

This nonsense that only nuevo dancers are rude is hogwash.  Even those 
dancers who I would say do strictly salon style dancers and do it very well, 
I have seen only recently dominate the dance floor, darting in and out of 
the line of dance with big showy steps.  Frankly I find that more annoying 
than the nuevo dancers "showboating" as you expect that. But not enough to 
lose any sleep over.  But I sot of can understand why some men can have 
their ego rubbed the wrong way seeing such displays and then want to tell 
the dancers off.

Finally, there is nothing particularly hard about getting off this list. 
When I was still getting the daily emails, there always a link on how to 
unsubscribe from the list.  It only took basic navigation skills to change 
my reading preferences.

Thanks to the reader who alerted me to this latest thread to give my 2cents 
worth.



 

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[Tango-L] Subject: Re: Preserving the character of the dance

[Vince Bagusauskas]

I have to agree with Jessica Douglas and in a way, she is back leading me 
and I am following in her footsteps and herewith have modified how I receive 
messages from Tango-L.

I have found the discussions from Aron very thoughtful and have for the most 
part agreed with him.  Whereas the responses to his posts have been like 
boys engaged in a competition at the urinal.

More importantly, in the last few days I have been in correspondence with 
Dierdre which made me take stock on: nuevo,  life in BsAs, gringos and the 
dominance of leaders navel gazing on Tango-L, whereas all she wants is a 
bloody good dance.  Maybe one day Dierdre we can can catch-up and see if I 
can measure up.

So picking-up my marbles...

V 

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From: Ecsedy Áron Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo Milonguero

[Vince Bagusauskas]

What a delightful read Aron on what is tango:

>tango as it was danced does not 
>exists anymore, as ALL the original social factors, institutions, 
>locations, cultural background has changed, disappeared or was replaced 
>by other forms.


So why do so many people make a pilgrimage to BsAs?

cheers 
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[Tango-L] Subject: Re: Tango on a tile floor in Italian Restaurant

[Vince Bagusauskas]

>It works.  My milonga.  My rules.

>Trini


>From my experience, it is  THE rule at all milongas  I go to and the 
organisers react similarly to Trini.  Funny how people more experienced than 
I seem to continually forget this.  Wonder why?


V

 

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[Tango-L] So you can't dance to Piazzolla?

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Ron said:

>(Ha!!) Besides, you can't dance tango to Piazzolla. (Piazzolla said so 
>himself).


Except for "Milonga del Angel" which I think is his most danceable piece. 
It does require musicality on the part of the dancer and a connection 
between the dancers to pull pull it off.



V



 

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[Tango-L] Subject: Re: Research project: Correlation between cultural identity and tango

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Shahrukh Merchant said:

> It would appear I can't fill in the survey without disabling important
> security features of my browser, so I won't complete it. Sorry!

"Which made me go to check it out. No conflicts with my browser 
settings,
but be aware that it makes you go through a seemingly never-ending set
of word-associations. I gave up after 64 of them, without getting any
indication as to (a) when if ever this was going to end (b) whether my
efforts would be wasted if I didn't stick it out till the end (when and
if it really came) (c) whether the real survey was possibly on the "


There are 100 word associations.  10 minutes to complete the survey is a 
conservative figure.  I did indicate at the end in the comments that the 
survey was far too long and was boring towards the end and it would put 
people off.

Also no conflicts with my firewall settings.

V 

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[Tango-L] japanese Tango

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Sergio said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo1VQQcRlp0


Yes the comments at the bottom of this Youtube post says it all: Nude and 
contemporary dance.




V

 

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Re: [Tango-L] What do you think?

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Brian,


>"Pay lots of attention to the opinions of world-class experts when they 
>discuss their own area of expertise, and routinely ignore them when they 
>express opinions in areas in which they have no expertise".  Lately we've 
>heard lots of critique of the aesthetic choices of some good social tango 
>dancers on "style" grounds,

You speak of different tangos and seem to suggest that just because
someone is a real and talented expert in several different tango forms that 
the average social
dancer should just bow down to these experts and we should bask in their
greatness and cater for their needs?  I disagree.


>Yet in this thread we hear so much of "why don't they just stop calling it 
>tango?"


What you seem to dismiss, is that many people on this list, who have danced 
many
many more years than me and are expert at it, love a particular form of 
tango and the
traditions that go with them.   That is all they are asking.  If you want to 
go to a nuevo tango styled
event (eg Practica X) then find one and go for it.  If however, the
organiser promotes their event as a traditional Argentine tango
event where ganchos, leaps, and raising the leg above the knee line is
strictly prohibited, then the nuevo reformists should respect the
boundaries.  Where I came from, there are tango events catering for the
nuevo dancers and one had the freedom to go there if social tango was not
for them.  While you would think this would keep everyone happy, it was 
always the nuevo dancers who pushed the envelope trying to get their way.


>The really good dancers are the ones everyone wants to dance with, .. 
>we envy them a little bit their universal desirability at the milonga, 
>?right?


You also talked about an envious factor.  I guess all dancers want to be
popular, but sometimes humility gets shunted aside.  As an example, in my 
salsa days a work
colleague of mine had a placing in the Australian salsa championships.  If
not for an old torn knee ligament injury he may have won.  He said to me 
once "I know
how good a dancer I am, because of all of the girls lining up to dance
with me."  Obviously to my eyes many women get a buzz from such a
testosterone filled attitude and wanted to dance with the best.  But my
reaction to this was somewhat different.

V

 

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[Tango-L] > 7. Re: What Do You Think? (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))

[Vince Bagusauskas]

> Message: 7
> Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 06:15:54 -0700 (PDT)
> From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" 
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Do You Think?
> To: Tango-L 
> Message-ID: <112868.20845...@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>

>  If not, where are the bounds?
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>


Interesting question on what is Argentine tango.  Reminds me of some of the 
guiding principles of an Australian tango club:

Which tango?
1. The Club's primary focus is on participatory Argentine 
social tango.
2. The Club recognises that the definition of Argentine 
tango is contested, and will change over time.
3. The Club recognises the importance of tango as a 
performance medium, and the fusions with other dance and theatre forms that 
this involves; but does not devote its resources to working in this area 
except to attract people.
 

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[Tango-L] > 4. What do you think? (Trini y Sean (PATangoS))

[Vince Bagusauskas]

IMHO, as a fan of ballet and modern dance, when her leg flew outstretched 
above her hips eg 5:49 and 6:00 and she suspended it there eg 5:00 made it 
ballet like.

But what style was it?

If I look at http://www.tejastango.com/tango_styles.html (and many other 
sites have similar interpretations) the style fits into Fantasia.  They are 
excellent at this kind of dance but I do not know if they can really 
translate it into traditional tango dancing.  However, 
http://buffalotango.com/html/l_-_tango_styles.html suggests that 
Fantasia/Show tango will help you in your "normal' tango.

BTW, the move at 4:20 (and similar) was demonstrated several times in a 
tango show in Melbourne on the weekend by salon/milonguero dancers.  Is it a 
trend?

I do like what Sebastian said at the beginning.





> Hi all,
>
> I'd like to get others' analysis of this performance by Sebastian Arce and 
> Marianna Montes.  I think highly of Sebastian and Marianna as teachers and 
> dancers.  As I watched this performance, however, I began to think that he 
> was going to lift her up in the air over his head, and I realized that 
> somewhere they had wandered into modern dance or ballet territory.  That's 
> what one expects when one sees modern dance or ballet.  I'm not 
> knowledgeable enough to figure out when that change occurred for me.  I'd 
> like to see what others knowledgeable about modern dance or ballet think.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/user/liffeylinda#play/all/uploads-all/0/yJHIUdavnKk
>
> I'd like to hear from those who can analyze it intelligently and 
> dispassionately, and not just give personal opinions.
>
> Thanks,
> Trini
>
>

>

 

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Re: [Tango-L] The Do's and Don'ts of Inviting and Accepting

[Vince Bagusauskas]

> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 16:53:36 -0500
> From: Joe Grohens 
> Subject: [Tango-L]  The Do's and Don'ts of Inviting and Accepting
> To: tango-l@mit.edu
> Cc: Joe Grohens 
> Message-ID: <8e1c9aeb-59d2-4136-8299-5345ebabe...@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>

>I don't know if I would make it "required reading for 
newbies". Some
newbies can take a document like this as a set of absolute 
rules, and
obey them whether they make sense or not.


As Ney said: if it were "somewhat adhered to" it would make life a little 
better.  Not surprisingly, several dancers have thanked my acquaintance for 
posting that link.

People new to Tango (or even those who are proficient at it) won't be 
necessarily be reading Tango L.  And they won't read about the do and dents 
here in an easily digested form, from all of the numerous threads on the 
subject.  How many schools actually hand out a "instructions" on how to 
behave at a milonga?  Certainly the schools I have been to, do not.  One 
tango club I went to did have some etiquette rules (a "Surviving Tango 
 Guide") that were given to people only when they joined.  Schools could do 
no worse by referring students to Ney or tweak them to suit their local 
circumstances.

   >I think it's gauche to take your shoes off as a signal that you 
don't
   want to dance. But I suppose that's just me.
I have seen it used.

  >What are the best and worst rejection lines you have ever heard
  As you said:
"I'm resting" excuse, and then dances a few seconds later with somebody 
else.
 

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[Tango-L] The Do's and Don'ts of Inviting and Accepting

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Thanks for Sophia for posting this on Facebook:

http://www.close-embrace.com/invitingetiquette.html

Should be required reading for newbies 
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[Tango-L] Geraldine and Ezequiel

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Having spoken to my NZ contacts last night, who attended their classes at 
the NZ festival, seems that they were better teachers in the intensive 
immersion course before the main festival workshops.

I have been contacted off-list to be told that there were similar negative 
reports on their attendance of a German tango festival *last year*.

Cheers

>
> Message: 11
> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 11:31:25 +1000
> From: Noughts 
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest
> To: Pat Petronio 
> Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
> Message-ID:
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
This was also the exact
> same feedback that was received from all the Aussies that went to NZ
> to have classes with them there. 

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[Tango-L] Fw: Aus International TangoFest - clarification

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Oh BTW,

The couple named the weekend before taught at the New Zealand Tango Festival

http://www.nztangofestival.co.nz/teachers.html

Maybe they were just tired?

Be interesting to get a different perspective from NZ

Cheers

--
From: "Vince Bagusauskas" 
Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 9:21 AM
To: 
Subject:  Re: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest - clarification

 

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Re: [Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest - clarification

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Jay and Jack,

I was not there this year so I can not comment.  Brick has Googled the 
information on who the teachers were at this years festival.  Still, all 
fairness to Trini, they may have had *a* bad day, but several reports from 
participants over the 4 day festival should not be ignored.

Negative feed back to the organisers last year, especially about Los 
Hermanos Macana who wanted to have a good old time,  turn up late to a class 
hung-over, play the piano during class and forget about teaching tango, was 
given at the time by many.  It hopefully was acted upon, by them never 
having them invited again, but the complaints at the time for refund of the 
money spent on a wasted class was never acknowledged.  It left a sour taste 
in at least 3 international attendees who said they would never return to 
the festival.  It must be difficult to be an organiser at times and satisfy 
everyone.

Cheers

 

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[Tango-L] Aus International TangoFest

[Vince Bagusauskas]

> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 06:24:01 +1000
> From: Myk Dowling 
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rhythm or Melody?
> To: tango-l@mit.edu
> Message-ID: <4a301661.4040...@gmail.com>
> I just did most of his workshops at the Sydney TangoFest, and have to
> agree wholeheartedly. Joaquin's system for explaining tango rhythms is
> absolutely excellent.

Thanks Myk.  Last night I talked to a guy from Melbourne who attended the 
festival.  He said that there was one Argentinean teacher couple there who 
were so average not only as teachers but as performers too, that he changed 
classes.  I guess this was reflected in the  comment in the latest Canberra 
tango newsletter? Seems you got a gem with Joaquin.

The Melbourne guy said besides the hiccup, the event was better organized 
this year than last.  That is good to hear.

Vince
 

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Re: [Tango-L] Milonga music mix

[Vince Bagusauskas]

>There are dances called 'bailes' where less than 70% of the
>music is tango (milonga and vals). A 'milonga' will play no more than
>30% of these other rhythms (to which tango is not danced).

Fascinating. Was this generally known before I posted the law extract a few
days ago?

Which begs the question, if foreigners are to be true to the culture of the
portenos and Argentine tango should there be an expectation that up to 30%
non-tango music be played at milongas?

Vince
 

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[Tango-L] Nuevo milonga music mix

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Interesting to get this break down of music from the upcoming Montreal nuevo 
festival:

** ( from our FAQ ) The music ratio in each milonga will be different :
* Open Milonga : 80% classic, 20% alternative
* Chill Out Milonga : 75%  classic, 25% alternative
* After- hour milonga ( Friday ) : 50% classic , 50% alternative
* Grand Ball : 80% classic 20% alternative
* All-Night Milonga :( Saturday ): 90% classic 10% alternative
* Closing Milonga : traditional to start, progressing to alternative



Vince

 

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[Tango-L] Definition of Milonga

[Vince Bagusauskas]

--
From: "Shahrukh Merchant" 
Sent: Saturday, April 25, 2009 3:46 AM
To: 
Subject: [Tango-L] La Viruta, Definition of Milonga


>
> Hmm, I wouldn't dare to pretend to come up with the definitive answer,
> but I certainly would not trust a bunch of bureaucrats to do so! It's
> the same group that defined a milonga so narrowly that several milongas
> briefly stopped playing the traditional occasional tanda of chacarera or
> rock-and-roll or "tropical" and in some cases even CORTINAS because they
> were afraid the Tango police (and we are talking about real police now)
> would close down the milonga and/or cause them to lose their
> preferential designation as a cultural event.
>

My thanks to the person who sent me this link

http://www.cedom.gov.ar/es/busca/

A search of which (I and a couple of others) did can find Ley Nº 2323 that 
says in part:

10.7.2 Características específicas. Son parte fundamental de la estructura
de las milongas la tanda de tango, milonga o vals, la tanda de otros
ritmos, la cortina y la actuación o número vivo.

A efectos de esta ley se entiende por tanda el conjunto de cuatro o cinco
piezas bailables del mismo ritmo pertenecientes a una misma orquesta o a
varias de similar estilo.

La cortina es el intervalo entre tandas en una milonga. Indica próximo
cambio de ritmo o de orquesta y descanso a los bailarines.
La actuación o número vivo puede estar a cargo de un grupo musical u
orquesta que ejecutan su repertorio para que el público baile. También
puede consistir en la exhibición de una o varias parejas, de ritmos afines
con el tango, para lo cual se deja la pista libre.
La oferta musical de cada jornada deberá ser al menos un 70% de ritmos de
tango, milonga y vals.

Nothing there about 2-1-2-1 tandas or in full Ley or in further searching.

But what does the 70% mean?  Does that allow 30% "tropical" or "folk"?  Does 
that not also mean that Tango fusion practicas can reclassify themselves as 
milongas, where they play Golden Age music in the majority?

Vince





 

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Re: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #7: Milonga Review

[Vince Bagusauskas]

--
From: "Burnett, David" 
Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 1:05 PM
To: 
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #7: Milonga Review

> As I remember, when I was in BsAs 2 years ago the city council had just 
> declared that the 2-1-2-1 pattern was part of what defined a Milonga.
>


Tried Googling that law and could not find it.  It would be good to see it 
in total as it may also then end arguments on what is or is not Argentine 
tango as defined by the home of tango.  Anyone have an idea?
 

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Re: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #7: Milonga Review

[Vince Bagusauskas]

This was the case in a milonga in Sydney.  Maybe they did not like milonga 
pieces?   Commonly the 4-1-4-1 would be used in Australia.  Thus I 
was very surprised to have encountered the 2-1-2-1 in BsAs.

--
From: "Sorin Varzaru" 
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 9:31 AM
To: "Tango-L List" 
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #7: Milonga Review

>
> Where are you dancing? In the NE (Boston, NYC, Montreal) I have heard 
> either
> 2-1-2-1 or 2-1-1-1. Same for all festivals I attended.
>
 

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Re: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #7: Milonga Review

[Vince Bagusauskas]

--
From: "Michael" 
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 3:41 AM
To: "Tango-L List" 
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #7: Milonga Review

> 3. Milonga de los Consagrados @ central region leonesa (This is the
> same location for Mi Refugio and Nino Bien

And supposedly the place where the best-of-the-best porteneos are supposed 
to attend from the information a teacher told me.  One lady of my group 
having a bit of stage fright due to the intimidation of the place and thus 
not dancing very well, was told to "sit down" less than 1 minute into the 
1st dance.  Tough crowd. They did play salsa; jive as a break from tango 
too.

>
> 5. Miscellaneous
> DJs seem to follow the 2-1-2-1 approach to music. 2 tandas of tango, 1
> tanda waltz, 2 tandas tango, 1 tanda of milonga. In the States, the
> pattern seems to be
> 4-1-4-1.


Interesting that you say that as I recall it being around 3-1-3-1 .  It  is 
around 6-1-6-1 in some places in Australia. 

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Re: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #5‏

[Vince Bagusauskas]

--
From: "Sergio Vandekier" 
Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2009 11:39 AM
To: "Tango-L List" 
Subject: [Tango-L] Report from Buenos Aires #5‏


> this has always been a very important part of the tango culture.
>


From my observations, only in BsAs tango culture.

My recent experience at Club Gricel:   We had a reservation: To get in only 
it seems!  They then made our party stand at the bar at the back.  I was 
only able to stand in the passage to the kitchen. I watched the sardines on 
the floor for an hour, decided that any hope of getting a dance from someone 
seated, using the codes to get a locals attention was utterly  was useless 
and left when my back could no longer take it.



 

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Re: [Tango-L] Tangocool announcement was Where in BsAs do the nuevos hang out?

[Vince Bagusauskas]

>From April '09:

- The group lessons will be on Wednesday and Friday from 09:00 till 11:00 
PM.

- Wednesday's Practice will be suspended = No practice at Wednesday.

- Friday's Practice continues running as usual, from 11:00 PM till 03:00 AM.

We hope to see you at Villa Malcolm if you visit BA!!!

Best regards, Gabriel Glagovsky
TANGOCOOL! organizer

http://tangocool.com/



Cheers,
Vince

--
From: "Jack Dylan" 
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 12:56 PM
To: 
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Where in BsAs do the nuevos hang out?

>
>> From: "larry...@juno.com" 
>>
>> Maybe those of you who have a lot of experience in the Buenos Aires
>> tango scene can tell us - where do "tango nuevo" dancers usually go
>> to dance?
>>
>
> Practica X, Tango Cool, El Motivo and La Viruta.
>
> Larry, enjoy yourself. I hope you're fast on your feet to take the
> necessary evasive actions but, just in case, make sure your health
> insurance is up to date :-)
>
> Jack
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tango-L] (no subject)

[Vince Bagusauskas]

> As for the recent comment about "too much kicking" I seem to recall
> the post was about Practica X.  As in practica, as in practice?
> There is where you are supposed to try new things, and everyone
> expects that.  Put those same nuevo (and there's always some new
> "nuevo") in a traditional milonga and those same "wild" people
> are going to damn well behave themselves, or else.
>

Yes you are correct on both counts. Most people seem to treat Practica X as 
a milonga and with a semi crowded dance floor there is no space to stop and 
practise.  Plus I recall that there were cortina breaks every so often 
making it more milonga like.

Cheers
 

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[Tango-L] Waiting for a dance

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Last week at one of the practicas I went to that had for once more or less 
equal numbers of men/women. One lady who is a reasonable beginner asked me 
this question in an exasperated voice:

"What do I have to do to get a dance around here?"

I was a bit stunned to realize that she was sitting out on that night.

Personally I normally only dance 3 songs with a lady at a practica, 
especially if there are ladies waiting.  If I dance longer, I feel the eyes 
and pressure on me to change partners. 

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Re: [Tango-L] Close embrace - Open embrace

[Vince Bagusauskas]

With that much dancing I would be sure it is just  a rubbing sore.  Better 
keep open embrace until it is gone well away.

But men can develop breast cancer.  As men are usually reluctant to go to 
the doctor I would strongly urge you (or any other man in a similar 
circumstance) to seek medical advice if the pain persists.

Vince

--
From: "Steve Littler" 
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 8:53 AM
To: "Tango-L List" 
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Close embrace - Open embrace

 

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[Tango-L] Fw: chicho - sorry

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Dear Sir/Madam,

In responding to this to what appears to be an insult, to my sexuality etc, 
I did not trim my post.

I do apologize sincerely.  Just lost it there for a while.

Vince

--
From: "Noughts" 
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 11:34 PM
To: "Vince Bagusauskas" 
Cc: "tango-l" 
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] chicho - sorry

> Well, Vince... Vincenzo, Vincent, Vinnie.. Vinny...
>
> Take if personally if you must and if you must take the personal line,
> then really, please don't be familiar with me and call me 'mate'.
>
> Every ballroom studio teacher worth their salt will teach the lead
> coming from their chest.  They phrase it differently like - "keep that
> frame rigid, move it all together" or some other variant I'm sure you
> will come up with.  At the end of the day, the turn always, always
> begins with the core muscles.  Guess what, it is NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE to
> begin any turn or rotation without that - physiologically impossible.
> That 'Vince' is basic anatomy and physiology 101.
>
> So, your Salsa Cross body lead, you don't move your chest hey?  Wow,
> that is impressive, love to see that.  Basic turns, you don't move
> your chest, not even a slight rotation to lift your arm...
> Impressive... Have to see that!
>
>
> 2009/2/10 Vince Bagusauskas :
>>
>>> Vincent, even salsa, ballroom latin, with changes to the frame, they
>>> are still lead with the chest - explore this a little more and you
>>
>> Mate it is Vince.  Even mum would never dare call me Vincent.
>>
>> Oh was that a compliment?  I wonder from where...
>
> Not any more, you have made it perfectly clear where you come from and
> it is quite a tight fit in there
>
> Now this may be an inflammatory post for you and I may be banned
> but now, I'm not losing out you will.
>
> See me soon?  Why, you wanna ask me out on a date?  Sorry.  Not that
> way inclined 'Vinnie'  You wanna beat me up in the carpark?  Ok,
> good luck, really, you will need lot's of friends that day.
>
> Bye Tango-l.
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Re: [Tango-L] chicho - sorry

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Damian of Jeditango your reputation proceeds you ever since I saw you in 
action at BASH II  You really don't know who I am do you?  Maybe you should 
make some enquiries in Canberra before you mouth off further.  You really do 
no favours for yourself as a potential teacher to the tango community who 
read this post.


To think that I was wanting get tips from you when I move to Melbourne this 
Sunday.

Cheers

>
> Not any more, you have made it perfectly clear where you come from and
> it is quite a tight fit in there
>
> Now this may be an inflammatory post for you and I may be banned
> but now, I'm not losing out you will.
>
> See me soon?  Why, you wanna ask me out on a date?  Sorry.  Not that
> way inclined 'Vinnie'  You wanna beat me up in the carpark?  Ok,
> good luck, really, you will need lot's of friends that day.
>
> Bye Tango-l.
> 
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Re: [Tango-L] chicho - sorry

[Vince Bagusauskas]

> Vincent, even salsa, ballroom latin, with changes to the frame, they
> are still lead with the chest - explore this a little more and you

Mate it is Vince.  Even mum would never dare call me Vincent.

But they do not teach leading with the chest.  And yes I have studied under 
one of the great ballroom teachers.  Nor has anyone from any of the schools 
I have done salsa at have taught chest leads.

And I was only disagreeing with you on salsa/ballroom only.  Maybe you had 
unique teachers before you began tango?

> will become a better dancer than you already are...
Oh was that a compliment?  I wonder from where...

See you soon...


--
From: "Noughts" 
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:29 PM
To: "tango-l" 
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] chicho - sorry

>
 

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Re: [Tango-L] chicho - sorry

[Vince Bagusauskas]

No it is not.  Not in salsa where there is no connection but lots of hand 
leading.  Not Latin ballroom.  Yes I have/am doing both. Frankly I thought 
the dancing somewhat staged in the video.

--
From: "Noughts" 
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 5:29 PM
To: "tango-l" 
Subject: [Tango-L]  chicho - sorry


>
> So, at the end of the day, closed, open, salon, canjengue, candombe,
> nuevo, stage... any other dance you like - lead correctly, uses
> basically chest only.  The technique is the same.  Having danced and
> competed internationally in many different dances, ballroom included -
> this is quite synonymous.
>
 

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Re: [Tango-L] Tango - Smooth dancing...

[Vince Bagusauskas]

Thanks Damian.

To make it easy, some other videos of Damian are at:

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=PlatypusReign&view=videos

Cheers

--
From: "Noughts" 
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 12:12 PM
To: 
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango - Smooth dancing...

> G'day all from Australia.  Hope you are all well.
> 
> It was most complimentary to even find that I was the centre of any
> discussion where no one wanted to hurt me, fire me or shoot me :-),
> but a discussion on Tango and dancing tango.
> 
> Many, in fact all of us have our own perspectives on what is and what
> is not tango.  I would never try to tell you what tango should be to
> any of you.  But I would like to make some comments.
> 
> The video's that were picked were all very very social dancing videos
> and the only one really worth watching of those (even though they are
> cute...) was the last one posted by Sergio
> (http://mailman.mit.edu/pipermail/tango-l/2009-February/009644.html)
> 
> The other videos were all for the person that I was dancing with for
> various reasons... certainly not for my dancing, but for theirs.
> Sometimes so family overseas could see that they were alive and well
> and others to show family that they actually do dance.. .mostly for
> them though.
> Most of those were so the person that I was dancing with could see
> their own dancing and what they were doing...
> Most of them were not even meant to be musical, but were for fault
> correction and self evaluation that most of my students go through.
> I am not in a close embrace most of the time as I am actually teaching
> them how to be on their own axis to improve their dancingnot to
> mention a simple fact like - the height difference makes it very
> difficult to dance close embrace or salon (yes, there is a difference)
> with them as opposed to with Oliwia (above video) or say someone like
> Michelle Erdemsel whom I love dancing with or Mariana Dragone whom I
> also love dancing with.
> Also very interesting that you mention Fabrizio (who by the way, loves
> my dancing), he is the most influential teacher (and very close
> friend) I have had and I have spent a lot of time with Herrerra,
> Chicho, Naviera, Torreli, Farfaro and quite a few others.
> 
> Like another post mentions, comparing me to Zotto - LOL!  That is both
> incredibly fantastic and incredibly silly - here is the quote, "a very
> ordinary, intermediate nobody, like many of us I suspect, to one of
> the world's greatest exponents of Tango. Not really a fair
> comparison:".  Well, as for a nobody, well I have taught in Europe,
> every city in Australia ('cept Perth), and Buenos Aires, so whilst I'm
> a 'nobody', I have certainly accomplished more than most...
> 
> I never want to dance like Zotto - I personally hate toe steppers as
> that is a ballet influence and a stage tango technique - and I am very
> good friends with many many stage dancers and champions.  I want to
> dance like.. me.  I really would encourage you to look at some of
> my other videos if you want to compare me to Zotto, maybe ones say
> where I am actually either doing a performance, or dancing with a
> person that I both know, and am very comfortable dancing with because
> I can assure you that if I was video'd dancing with say, Cecilia
> Gonzalez, Mariana Dragone, Eugenia Parrilla, Alexandra Hubert or one
> of the many many other incredibly famous dancers, then your
> observations would be different again... One in particular is Edith
> Paez, one of the judges for the World Tango Championships, who
> considers me to be one of her favourite dancers ever - she also dance
> for 20 years on stage from the age of 16 with the likes of Miguel
> Zotto and Roberto Herrerra.  Perspective... different perspectives.
> 
> IN perspective, whom you dance with also either limits or enhances
> what you are able to do and let's face it, you don't want to connect
> with everyone, in fact, you can't.  We are human after all.  Some
> people we just won't, don't or can't connect with.
> 
> So, I guess I'm saying, really unless you have danced with me and I'm
> not teaching you, then evaluating my dance or anyone elses especially
> labelled "social" may not be either that accurate, or fair.
> 
> Hope to see all of your dancing on youtube too ;-)
> 
> Keep happy in Tango
> Damian
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