[Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend

[Joe Grohens]

Mario wrote this:
> Here's my point..simple and clear. Dancing slo tango is often not  
> 'dancing' Often, it is posing and doing mechanical movements.  
> Sometimes, these poses and mechanics can be done relatively close to  
> the same speed of the music..it can appear to be dancing. Because  
> these mechanicions don't have a basis in 'dancing' but rather in  
> engineering, they are very difficult to master. The ease and sense  
> of the 'dance' (relationship of music to body movement) just isn't  
> involved. Slo tango becomes difficult and a lucrative business. Now,  
> the Milonga (song) is harder to engineer...it's more difficult to  
> obscure and make difficult.  However, it is easy to dance..if  
> someone can dance, that is. So, what is this phenomena of a Tango  
> teacher who cannot dance the Milonga?? I'm saying that I have met  
> various 'teachers' who either refuse to dance it or dance it in a  
> spastic way. 'Spastic' = non-joyous, stiff. Dancing is releasing and  
> flowing..trusting something more profound than 'thinking' .. One can  
> 'dance' the slo tango without really dancing. The Milonga is much  
> harder to fake.. ..and doesn't lend itself well to being engineered.  
> Igor can dancethat's all...his steps may not be officially  
> approved nor have the good tango teaching seal of approval but it is  
> dancing..it flows and it's joyous. ..not mechanical not stiff.  
> that's all folks

Mario,

Congratulations on evolving (in about two months) from a beginner with  
a million questions into an aficionado with the ability to make  
sweeping generalizations from extremely small samples, sometimes from  
one data point. You are the proof that tango-l and youtube can make  
someone into a tango expert in a very short time.

About milonga. Not everyone likes to dance milonga or dances it well.  
Many tango dancers do not dance milonga much. Many dancers who really  
like milonga do not dance tango as much as they dance milonga. They  
are two different dances.

I tend to agree with you that posing and doing mechanical movements is  
not dancing. In my very limited experience of tango, I have not seen  
any correlation between dancing in such a posing way and slow tango  
music. I just offer this as a counter-example. I'm suppose you could  
be right, but I doubt it and would encourage you to re-examine your  
research findings.

In the U.S. I have (again, in my very limited experience) seen many  
joyous flowing dancers release themselves into milonga and dance it  
very badly, racing around the room, bouncing up and down, being wild  
and having a great time. They are not mechanical or stiff. But they  
are beginners.

Joe Grohens
Also a beginner in tango

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Re: [Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend

[Astrid]

how about you show us yours, Mario, or your tango, before you try to judge 
anyone else's?

Mario wrote:
> Put up or shut up
>  Let's everyone who said that Igor's Milonga is ''..just"...show us their 
> Milonga..
>  and every (usa) teacher who claims that they can dance it, show us theirs 
> too
>   Why not? What's it take to move the table our of the room and hand the 
> camera over to Jill ??
>

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[Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend

[Mario]

Here's my point..simple and clear.
  Dancing slo tango is often not 'dancing' 
  Often, it is posing and doing mechanical movements.
  Sometimes, these poses and mechanics can be done
  relatively close to the same speed of the music..it can
  appear to be dancing.
  Because these mechanicions don't have a basis in 'dancing'
  but rather in engineering, they are very difficult to master.
  The ease and sense of the 'dance' (relationship of music to body movement)
  just isn't involved. Slo tango becomes difficult and a lucrative business.
  Now, the Milonga (song) is harder to engineer...it's more difficult to obscure
  and make difficult.  However, it is easy to dance..if someone can dance, that 
is.
  So, what is this phenomena of a Tango teacher who cannot dance the Milonga??
  I'm saying that I have met various 'teachers' who either refuse to dance it 
or dance it in a spastic way.
  'Spastic' = non-joyous, stiff. 
  Dancing is releasing and flowing..trusting something more profound than 
'thinking' ..
  One can 'dance' the slo tango without really dancing.  The Milonga is much 
harder to fake..
  ..and doesn't lend itself well to being engineered.
   Igor can dancethat's all...his steps may not be officially approved nor 
have the good 
  tango teaching seal of approval but it is dancing..it flows and it's joyous. 
..not mechanical
  not stiff.  that's all folks

   
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[Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend

[Mario]

Put up or shut up
  Let's everyone who said that Igor's Milonga is ''..just"...show us their 
Milonga..
  and every (usa) teacher who claims that they can dance it, show us theirs 
too
   Why not? What's it take to move the table our of the room and hand the 
camera over to Jill ??

   
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Re: [Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend

[Astrid]

oh, I can't believe it, I forgot to add the link. Here is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKII5I_qSnA


> 
> Nancy wrote:
> 
>> THIS is milonga.
>> 
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KhBuOwJPcU
>> 
>> All others are wannabes.  
> 
I wrote: 
> No, Nancy, THIS is a milonga... ; )
> My kind of milonga, anyway...
> 
> Astrid
> 
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Re: [Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend

[Astrid]

Nancy wrote:

> THIS is milonga.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KhBuOwJPcU
> 
> All others are wannabes.  


No, Nancy, THIS is a milonga... ; )
My kind of milonga, anyway...

Astrid

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Re: [Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend

[Chris, UK]

Michael wrote:

> There are no traspie steps. It does not have the look and feel of a
> milonga except that they step on every beat, which I don't like anyway,
> but some people have the idea that milonga must be danced that way.

Some people have the idea milonga must have traspie. They're wrong too.

Astrid wrote:

> the links you posted, the 2nd and the 4th are not very good either.

Agreed. Having criticised Igor for "Everything is too big
(look at the size of some of the steps!)" Michael then recommends a video 
of US teacher doing steps at least as large. Odd.

--
Chris
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Re: [Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend

[Jay Rabe]

I appreciate Dany's understated style, and as a kind and gentle man he has no 
peers. He does true milonga steps rather than short and quick tango steps, but 
frankly it would be hard to look bad with such an exceptional follower as 
Silvina.

For my money, there is no better milonga than what Jorge Nel does. Here's the 
performance he did at the 2007 Portland TangoFest. It's substantially if not 
completely choreographed, but marvelous and playful regardless, and in between 
the showmanship, it's undeniably milonga.

Search for about 50 more on YouTube.

  J
   TangoMoments.com


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Re: [Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend

[NANCY]

THIS is milonga.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KhBuOwJPcU

All others are wannabes.  Watch all of the YouTube clips of Dany 'el Flaco' 
Garcia.  He is El Rey de la milonga.  And he can also dance awesome swing and 
salsa and tango and vals.  You will note the absence of what I call 'the polka 
look' to his milongas.  He maintains a close embrace and barely moves his upper 
torso.  He doesn't bounce and his followers do not whip their hips around. He 
lets the music tell him what steps to take.  He doesn't try to outrun the music 
or his partner.  

And before you criticize 'all US teachers', Mario,  maybe you could tell us 
which of those teachers you have had milonga classes with. 







  
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Re: [Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend

[Astrid]

I have checked and you are right, Michael. He is not using any milonga 
steps, it is just like tango, different rhythm.
However, the links you posted, the 2nd and the 4th are not very good either.
I don't know much about US teachers, but I personally think, Pablo Veron and 
Jorge Torres are great milonga dancers. Pablo I have only seen in that 
movie, but I have danced with Jorge, and he is fabulous. He is much more 
than just a stage dancer, he feels like velvet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6IeJGYqKrc

by the way, while looking for more milonga I came across a clip of El Indio 
dancing chacarera. Or is it Gato? Never seen him do that before. ; )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRUQi-9k44M&feature=related

-
 Original Message - 
From: "Michael Figart II" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> While I can pick stuff out of any performance that I
> don't care for, these four videos are of US teachers
> dancing milonga that showcase the look and feel of
> milonga done well. I'm sure there are more, but I
> picked these out in 5 minutes (I'd never seen these
> videos before today).
> I would also like to say that I'm not a great dancer
> of milongamaybe one of these days!
>
> http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=SxEH_eYzC3M
>
> http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=zAKBvfg0yq4
>
> http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=souF9ZZPAjA
>
> http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=zdjocXq05es
>
> See? No head-exploding ammunition!
> Regards,
> Michael Figart II
> Houston Tx
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend

[Tango Society of Central Illinois]

On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 2:09 PM, Burak Ozkosem <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Ron has a point, however, dancing on tango beat with couple syncopations
>  does not mean milonga dancing necessarily. I would prefer to choose calm
> dancing compared to unsuccessfull chasing of the music. Does it make sense?


Burak,

It's not exactly clear what you're saying. Since I presented videos of Pocho
and Dany Garcia dancing what appeared to be milonga, tt sounds like you're
saying that Pocho and Dany Garcia are dancing 'on tango beat with couple
synchopations' instead of milonga. If that is correct, could you please
clarify how Pocho and Dany can dance milonga better. I will be seeing them
next month so I can convey your suggestions to them if you like.

Cheers,

Ron
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[Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend

[Michael Figart II]

Hi Mario and all,
Mario wrote, <<>

OK, I've met Igor, and we sometimes correspond. He's a
good dancer, and I like him. But Mario, this video
you've posted is not a great milonga. Its more like a
sped-up tango with no pauses. Everything is too big
(look at the size of some of the steps!). Everything
is the same speed. There are no traspie steps. It does
not have the look and feel of a milonga except that
they step on every beat, which I don't like anyway,
but some people have the idea that milonga must be
danced that way.
Yes, its a performance, as are all these I've posted
below, which we must take into consideration when we
watch all this stuff. Usually performances are danced
differently than they would be otherwise.
And while there are fewer good dancers and teachers of
milonga (good milonga, in my opinion, is the hardest
of the three genres), the USA does have some teachers
that are very good at it.
While I can pick stuff out of any performance that I
don't care for, these four videos are of US teachers
dancing milonga that showcase the look and feel of
milonga done well. I'm sure there are more, but I
picked these out in 5 minutes (I'd never seen these
videos before today). 
I would also like to say that I'm not a great dancer
of milongamaybe one of these days!

http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=SxEH_eYzC3M

http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=zAKBvfg0yq4

http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=souF9ZZPAjA

http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=zdjocXq05es

See? No head-exploding ammunition!
Regards,
Michael Figart II
Houston Tx





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Re: [Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend

[melvillefox]

From: Burak Ozkosem <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Tango Society of Central Illinois <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; 
Tango-L 
Sent: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 2:09 pm
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend

Advancing in musicality requires several skills such as
.Manipulation and recombination of the rhythm
.transition between staccato and legato concepts
.developing awareness on thematic vs sequence focused patterns 
(cruzada,
ocho cortado etc.)
Here some different milonga dancing styles by great dancers

-
-

How about just listening to the music and connecting your movements to 
it?

Geesh. All this intellectualizing about the music. I've never seen it 
get anyone to 'advance their musicality'. It gets people to dance with 
their heads instead of their bodies.

I doubt the milongueros think about this complexity when they dance. 
They just feel the music and move to it.

Leave this for tango academia, not the dance floor.

Mel
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Re: [Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend

[Burak Ozkosem]

Ron has a point, however, dancing on tango beat with couple 
syncopations  does not mean milonga dancing necessarily. I would prefer 
to choose calm dancing compared to unsuccessfull chasing of the music. 
Does it make sense?
We teach milonga technique after we teach tango technique, this won't 
for work leaders unfortunately.

Advancing in musicality requires several skills such as
.Manipulation and recombination of the rhythm
.transition between staccato and legato concepts
.developing awareness on thematic vs sequence focused patterns (cruzada, 
ocho cortado etc.)
Here some different milonga dancing styles by great dancers

If you have no idea or confused about what I'm talking about, feel free 
to write me directly.
Burak
Chicago

www.tangoeclectique.com
Www.chicagotangoweek.com

:: Sent from my T-Mobile Sidekick Slide® ::
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Re: [Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend

[Tango Society of Central Illinois]

On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 9:47 AM, Mario <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> most instructors (usa) cannot dance the Milonga

Check out how some milongueros dance milonga. View the videos by Pocho and
El Flaco Dany:

http://www.centraltango.com/TangoInfo/VideoTangoMilonguero.htm

One thing that is immediately apparent in these videos is that the dancing
is unhurried. Yes, the milongas are slow Canaro, but they are also dancing a
traspie rhythm. The unhurried look is due in large part to smaller steps,
but also to collecting and waiting for partner collection before taking the
next step.

This unhurried dancing to milonga is a characteristic that differentiates
the milongueros from average dancers, not just outside Argentina, but even
within Argentina. For example, one can see a variety of speeds of dancing to
this fast milonga on a low density floor at the Lo de Celia milonga in
Buenos Aires:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNfilkXAOxo&feature=related

I cannot verify that the faster dancers are porten~os.

Ron
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Re: [Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend

[Dubravko Kakarigi]

- Original Message 
From: Joe Grohens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Cc: Joe Grohens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 6, 2008 11:47:07 AM
Subject: [Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend

> > most instructors (usa) cannot dance the Milonga
>
> Interesting. I did not know that! I learn so much from tango-l.

WHAT? I mean, you can't be serious! Are you not mocking the original 
"inspiration for the weekend" post? I mean, I like and encourage Mario's asking 
questions and such and apparently wanting to learn, but he displayed absolutely 
no substantial knowledge so far on any subject of tango to make him any sort of 
authority to pass judgment like "most instructors (usa) cannot dance the 
Milonga..this guy can."
It is not so much that Mario's judgment is right or wrong but that someone 
fairly new to the subject should not volunteer his or her opinions before 
paying the proper dues. There are those on this list who, with even less 
knowledge, can not discard the misjudgments and, in this respect, Mario is 
doing them a disfavor.
 
This whole Mario thing sounds like one big joke. Mario, please do continue to 
participate but resist the urge to pass general sort of judgements unless they 
are clearly just personal preferences to which you are certainly entitled.
 
...dubravko
 
P.S. I have communicated with Igor in private about that milonga clip and our 
views on it coincide. Since it was a private communication, it will remain so.

===
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
this life is not a rehearsal
===

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[Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend

[Joe Grohens]

 > most instructors (usa) cannot dance the Milonga

Interesting. I did not know that! I learn so much from tango-l.

 >..this guy can.
Agreed.

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[Tango-L] Milonga - inspiration for the weekend

[Mario]

Igor Milongando...most instructors (usa) cannot dance the Milonga..this guy can.
  http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=t8wXbuJ0SYM
   
  alternative Milonga music ...but it works.
  http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk3nFezA-3k
   
  can never show this enough..and leading in high heels yet..not easy!
  http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=QhknYQ41j9Y
   
  ..carrying it a bit further..
  http://mx.youtube.com/watch?v=14GzFOPmM4Q&feature=related

   
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