Re: [Tango-L] Marketing or hype?
The URL for the 2007 World Argentine tango show championship's list of winners is this: http://www.mundialdetango.gov.ar/tango_escenario_e.php The Japanese winners and finalists are all dancers I know personally, Chizuko still works at the studio I go to for their milongas while her partner Sebastian has returned to BA. The Korean couple who won 1st prize a couple of years ago paid our milonga a visit on their way home to Seoul. Gonzalo who won 2nd place last year with a Japanese partner never returned to Tokyo after that. Cristian Lopez who won 4th place the year before that with Rika has been bought up by another studio in Tokyo, I used to dance with him every week. So, don't rush to conclusions if you just lack information, Chris. The video of the teaching couple you posted does not look like they would be able to win the Mundial in BA, but then you never know. Sometimes dancers just have to know the right people and take lessons with someone who is on the jury to score in these kind of events. There are also world tango competitions held in Florida, or were, at any case, the teacher who organised them would then proudly announce on tango-l that all the winning couples had been among his students, except for Gavito and Marcella and such... So, no need to take these results all that seriously, but these competitions do exist. The proper name for th BA event is Campeonato Mundial de Baile de Tango. Copes, Sergio Cortazzo and such people are on the jury. I would love to know more about the salon tango competitions but unfortunately, teachers from Japan (Japanese or Argentine) do not usually compete in that, but there were a few who went and one or two couples scored. Chris wrote: this UK teaching couple http://tinyurl.com/5pmbh4 who claim to have won the World Argentine Tango Show Championship. Despite there being no record of a World Argentine Tango Show Championship ever having been held. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Marketing or hype?
This would all be very well if this is how tango selling worked. But the reality is that a teacher in a studio will tell all his students, most of them beginner or intermediate level:I have this teacher from BA coming over for a tango week, and he/she is really famous and one of the best tango dancers in the world. Now, for a mere 3 Yen/ 300 dollars/200 Euros or whatever, you can be part of this very special experience and take a series of lessons with him/her... At least the beginners will often buy this, no matter who is actually coming. So, words do matter, Nina, calling this fraud in some cases is not completely unjustified, it is very different from flattering a woman you want to seduce by telling her, she is the best, most beautiful etc. . There is a very basic thing about tango teaching and learning - if you look at a dancer who is also a teacher and you want to dance like him or her, then by all means take the lessons with that teacher. But if you look at that teacher and do not want to dance like him or her, then does it really matter whether this dancer is the last deity of tango? The question is who controls the student - other people of his/her internal drive? It is a journey, and the words don't matter. Nina ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Marketing or hype?
So, don't rush to conclusions if you just lack information, Chris. The video of the teaching couple you posted does not look like they would be able to win the Mundial in BA, but then you never know. I'm not rushing to conclusions, Astrid. I bothered to check the BA Mundial web site, and the names of these UK teachers do not appear anywhere in the results listings. Sometimes dancers just have to know the right people and take lessons Actually, they also have to turn up at the competition. I've seen no evidence this couple did even that. -- Chris ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Marketing or hype?
Nina (and others), Janis' point was not about superlatives alone: it was also about lies and deliberately misleading statements. Do you also accept those as a matter of course? If you do, what good is your word? Nina Pesochinsky wrote: The question is who controls the student - other people of his/her internal drive? Actually, the question was how manipulative certain people are, and how much certain other people are willing to tolerate it (and even get behind it) on Tango-A. If it is other people, then he/she needs to spend lots of money on lots of lessons to figure it out. It is a journey, and the words don't matter. And the sentences above endorse a trickle-down policy of... well, bullshit. Perhaps it's my silly internal drive talking here, but I simply don't see how one person's innocence can possibly justify another's abuse. I agree with the notion that every teacher has at least a little to offer, perhaps even a gem. The problem is that bad teachers also offer heaps of gaudy junk. That a fake Rolex tells time does not make it any the less fake. Jake ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Marketing or hype?
Dictionary: hype -- 1. Excessive publicity and the ensuing commotion. 2. Exaggerated or extravagant claims made especially in advertising or promotional material. 3. An advertising or promotional ploy. 4. Something deliberating misleading; a deception. The rules of Tango-A do not allow for hype, but that's seems to be all it contains. The number of posts would be greatly reduced if hype were eliminated. The following are some recent examples. Carlos Stasi runs one of the most famous milongas in Buenos Aires - Porteño y Bailarin! Not only is he a wonderful and welcoming host, he is also a hardcore porteño, a great social dancer and skilled instructor. He will be teaching the intermediate class at 8:30pm, assisted by another well known face in the Bs As tango scene, Susana Guevara. They will also treat us with a performance, Buenos Aires style! key words: famous, wonderful, hardcore, great, skilled. Honestly, I didn't know he could dance. Enriqueta has danced tango for over 15 years. She presently teaches group and private classes in Buenos Aires. The classes are for bothmen and women. She is an expert in Salon Tango - Milonguero Style, Tango Waltz and Milonga. Enriqueta also specializes in teaching technique for women and has led many courses and seminars. She performed at the 3rd and 5th Metropolitan Championships in Buenos Aires. She has done a number of performances in Buenos Aires including at Salon Canning, Cachirulo (Maipu 444), and at Confiteria Ideal for the First Milongueando Festival in Buenos Aires. She has been an instructor at Susana Miller's La Academia and presently teaches at Maipu 444. key words: expert, specializes, performed. The campeonato program doesn't have her name listed. Her magazine ads go all the way back to last November. She's in Chicago, so how is she presently teaching in BsAs? We'll also have a performance by Monica Paz, a true master of the milonguero style. She's visiting NYC from Buenos Aires key words: true master. Mastery dancing like a milonguero? Where does she teach and dance in BsAs? Anyone from Buenos Aires with a tourist visa and the money for airfare can be hyped on Tango-A. Americans are ready to buy. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Marketing or hype?
from what I know, it is a common policy among tango teachers and probably generally, dance teachers, to inflate their resume by doubling their years of experience and such. One guy here calls himself Gavito's former assistent. I never noticed, Gavito used any assistents... That, together with promoters doing the hype thing (e.g.: Saucedo is one of the best dancers in the world) which will all be believed at face value by ill informed beginners and intermediates, and those who only know teachers from their own country (and maybe not even those' true backgrounds...) As we all know, there is no licensing system for tango teachers, anybody can appoint himself to be one, just look at Tango-L sometimes. ; ) Janis wrote: key words: famous, wonderful, hardcore, great, skilled. Honestly, I didn't know he could dance. key words: expert, specializes, performed. The campeonato program doesn't have her name listed. Her magazine ads go all the way back to last November. She's in Chicago, so how is she presently teaching in BsAs? key words: true master. Mastery dancing like a milonguero? Where does she teach and dance in BsAs? ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Marketing or hype?
Marketing or hype? Too polite to call it fraud, Janis? ;) Sadly this is one aspect of tango which some Brits do every bit as well as the Argentines. E.g. this UK teaching couple http://tinyurl.com/5pmbh4 who claim to have won the World Argentine Tango Show Championship. Despite there being no record of a World Argentine Tango Show Championship ever having been held. -- Chris ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Marketing or hype?
Naaah, not fraud. It's just the same Superlative Crisis that has been sweeping the world these last few years. There just aren't enough superlatives to deal with all the extra- ordinary, far beyond mortal, Gods among mere god-lets that we have in tango. If the last great master was beyond amazing, then the next one has to be a master of masters. Sure, he's just a shoe salesman, but he's hushed-aweARGENTINE/ hushed-awe. Where will this nuclear arms race ever end!? On Jun 9, 2008, at 7:24 PM, Chris, UK wrote: Marketing or hype? Too polite to call it fraud, Janis? ;) Sadly this is one aspect of tango which some Brits do every bit as well as the Argentines. E.g. this UK teaching couple http://tinyurl.com/ 5pmbh4 who claim to have won the World Argentine Tango Show Championship. Despite there being no record of a World Argentine Tango Show Championship ever having been held. -- Chris ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Marketing or hype?
Here are two glorious words that, sadly, never show up in tango promotions in English: - Bodacious - Stupendous Argentines are not so attached to the truth of the words. If you are about to announce a dancing couple that is going to dance a performance, and you say Here are the best dancers in the world!, does it really matter whether it is true or not? At that one split second, they might be. But it does not matter. Argentines know that. They do not hook into every word for its truth. It just needs to sound good. When a man tells a woman when they dance Ojos claros! Que divina hermosa mujer!', should she argue with him because it may not really be true? And when a woman tells the man she just danced with that he is the best dancer she has ever danced with, should he argue because his left brain might be whispering to him doubts about that? I hope not! Nina At 07:36 PM 6/9/2008, Tom Stermitz wrote: Naaah, not fraud. It's just the same Superlative Crisis that has been sweeping the world these last few years. There just aren't enough superlatives to deal with all the extra- ordinary, far beyond mortal, Gods among mere god-lets that we have in tango. If the last great master was beyond amazing, then the next one has to be a master of masters. Sure, he's just a shoe salesman, but he's hushed-aweARGENTINE/ hushed-awe. Where will this nuclear arms race ever end!? On Jun 9, 2008, at 7:24 PM, Chris, UK wrote: Marketing or hype? Too polite to call it fraud, Janis? ;) Sadly this is one aspect of tango which some Brits do every bit as well as the Argentines. E.g. this UK teaching couple http://tinyurl.com/ 5pmbh4 who claim to have won the World Argentine Tango Show Championship. Despite there being no record of a World Argentine Tango Show Championship ever having been held. -- Chris ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Marketing or hype?
Argentines are not so attached to the truth of the words. ... But it does not matter. Argentines know that. They do not hook into every word for its truth. It just needs to sound good. Let's see if I understand you correctly, Nina. When the student who's fallen for this hype finds himself spending $30 of his money and two hours of his time listening to an Argentine telling him how to dance tango, it does not matter whether this Argentine's claims to be a great dancer and master teacher are actually true. Rather, it just needs to sound good. ??? -- Chris ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Marketing or hype?
Milton Myers, a master teacher, choreographer and former principal dancers of the Alvin Ailey Dance Company in NY, once said in class that all dance teachers have some gems. Some of them have many and they spill them in front of their students. But others have only one or two. Most students wait for the teachers that spill lots of gems before they start picking them up. But it is the student that is not only picking all those spilled gems, but also who is able to pick that one gem from that not the best of the teachers is the one that will end up with a bigger treasure. There is a very basic thing about tango teaching and learning - if you look at a dancer who is also a teacher and you want to dance like him or her, then by all means take the lessons with that teacher. But if you look at that teacher and do not want to dance like him or her, then does it really matter whether this dancer is the last deity of tango? The question is who controls the student - other people of his/her internal drive? If it is other people, then he/she needs to spend lots of money on lots of lessons to figure it out. It is a journey, and the words don't matter. Nina At 08:40 PM 6/9/2008, Chris, UK wrote: Argentines are not so attached to the truth of the words. ... But it does not matter. Argentines know that. They do not hook into every word for its truth. It just needs to sound good. Let's see if I understand you correctly, Nina. When the student who's fallen for this hype finds himself spending $30 of his money and two hours of his time listening to an Argentine telling him how to dance tango, it does not matter whether this Argentine's claims to be a great dancer and master teacher are actually true. Rather, it just needs to sound good. ??? -- Chris ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Marketing or hype?
Well Tom; It will end when a guy finally gets too dizzy of going round and round, has a drink and sees that some other dancers are caught up in superlatives. Sees an attractive woman, cabeceo (silently saying Woman, dance), and moves with the rest of the floor. Hear the heart beat of the woman, she feels nice in the arms, and we dance. Who cares about nuclear bombs. David PS: I do derive some pleasure from annoying grammarians. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom Stermitz Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 7:36 PM To: Tango-L Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Marketing or hype? Naaah, not fraud. It's just the same Superlative Crisis that has been sweeping the world these last few years. There just aren't enough superlatives to deal with all the extra- ordinary, far beyond mortal, Gods among mere god-lets that we have in tango. If the last great master was beyond amazing, then the next one has to be a master of masters. Sure, he's just a shoe salesman, but he's hushed-aweARGENTINE/ hushed-awe. Where will this nuclear arms race ever end!? On Jun 9, 2008, at 7:24 PM, Chris, UK wrote: Marketing or hype? Too polite to call it fraud, Janis? ;) Sadly this is one aspect of tango which some Brits do every bit as well as the Argentines. E.g. this UK teaching couple http://tinyurl.com/ 5pmbh4 who claim to have won the World Argentine Tango Show Championship. Despite there being no record of a World Argentine Tango Show Championship ever having been held. -- Chris ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.3/1472 - Release Date: 5/29/2008 7:27 AM Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.3/1472 - Release Date: 5/29/2008 7:27 AM ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
