[Tango-L] More Nuevo bashing. Why??
Mario wrote: >>hey Martin,, where did I say that I liked it?? I can't stand the critter... >>I'm just hoping that it drops the name 'Tango' altogether... >>I think it will someday I understand that nuevo tango is merely a "means of analysis that enables us to identify the movements and combinations of movements that are common in traditional tango, and to re-use them in ways that are not common in traditional tango." - Andres Amarilla I may be a 60 something close embrace dancer, but I am almost embarrassed by the curmudgeonly attitudes expressed by my fellow dancers. I remain totally unable to comprehend the animosity towards what is merely an extension of traditional tango, and which is danced by many (including Andres & his wife Meredith) to traditional tango music with beauty, grace, and musicality. Is it jealousy? Is it fear of change? Is it bad tribal behavior? Evolutionary biology meets grouchy old people? I'm clueless! Cheers, D. David Thorn _ Stay in touch when you're away with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_052008 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] More Nuevo bashing. Why??
Hi David, you're right it is unseemly and unkind. I have to confess that I have a really strong negative feeling towards all that is Nuevo. I too am a close embrace dancer and if Nuevo takes over the Milongas ..I quit dancing. its as simple as that ...I would just as soon cha cha or salsa...and Tango is my passion.. so, what am I to do..pretend it's nice??? I hate it..I don't even like to look at it, let alone be on the same dance floor with it...why such an inability to 'understand' the negativity?? OK there it is and here I am..out there in all of my non nice ugliness..I started off wanting to make this a nicer post but why hide the truth..I hope others won't hate me and I hope Tango L.. won't punish me...hey, maybe I can be cured?? Maybe I need some mental adjustments?? sincerely but unkindly Mario - Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] More Nuevo bashing. Why??
Well, we have a perceptible divide. It's been looming and growing for 4 years, more-or-less. Hopefully, people on both sides are quite sensitive to the reasons and implications. But - there is a Problem. Divides are not good things. Division separates and dilutes. We are seeing the sad effects in every community. I am one who would like to be able to not be caught on either side. I am a professional who sincerely seeks to please all tango lovers. I do perceive a "to hell with them" attitude happening on both sides. I find this disturbing. It does seem clear to me why this is happening. Unfortunately, to describe it gets into delicate issues for one side which might tend to put the observer in the awkward position of not being understood much by that half of the protagonists. Being misunderstood or misinterpreted is not something I want at all. This shuts me up. That bothers me too - that a balanced opinion may not be offered for open consideration to people who lack some basic information. During these past 4 years, I have watched as the divide opened up and became the Problem. It doesn't take a genius to understand what the situation is. Addressing it to effect is something I can only wish to be able to help with. If I could only say what what I want to and not offend anybody's sensibilities; but that would mean some people would have to understand more than they do now. Teachers/leaders have to prepare that way. And apparently, they don't get it. Woe is me and the whole tango community for that. One side is insulted and embarrassed; one side is blithely unaware. What a pity. Lots of people are staying home because of it. Maybe my friends Fabian, Gustavo and Chicho and some others would like to show some leadership to their blithe disciples? ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] More Nuevo Bashing - why?
The first time I saw Tango ( social dance) it was by a singular couple on a dance floor built into their second floor...I was floored...first it was the music and then it was the embrace of the couple dancing..pure beauty to me..a hope. The second time I saw Tango (social) it was at a practica where everyone was dancing close embrace..I was dumbfounded..I'd never seen such beauty in public...a hope. Now, I've tried watching Nuevo with 'open eyes' imagining myself doing it...not Sure, it can be pretty and so can salsa...so what? ..and besides the fact that it needs three times (at least) the space of abrazo milonguero, I just have no interest in dancing it. What the heck is it doing at my dance event??? That's what I can't understand.. It's not an evolution nor an improvement. It's a dis-connect as far as I'm concerned. With my first love, the Tango has a beauty that is indescribeable. We've all seen the pictures of couples locked in ecstatic embrace..sleeping, dreaming, laying together in the walking embrace..what are these other people doing? ..and who let them in to do it here? Don't they know that this is a celestial dreamroom and not a skate-board park?? - Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] More Nuevo bashing. Why??
At 03:44 PM 5/12/2008, David Thorn wrote: > I'm clueless! It's simple. It's not bashing. It's realizing and expressing the difference. Argentine Tango and Nuevo Tango are different dances. My preference, like yours, is close embrace Argentine Tango, danced to traditional Tango music. I just don't dance the other (nuevo) dance. It doesn't work well on a traditional milonga pista. If people want to do it, it's fine with me -- just not at a traditional milonga. Marty Waxman ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] More Nuevo bashing. Why??
I am curious Mario (and others of like mind), what exactly is it that you do not like about the so-called Tango Nuevo? I know that many object to the apparent lack of musicality exhibited by tango-nuevo dancers (absolutely not inherently true in my mind), some object to many tango-nuevo dancers not observing dance floor etiquette (likewise, not special to tango nuevo). What else? There are many really bad dancers in all dancing and not that many good ones. However, we all have the right to our own expression, don't we? I know, I know, but that does not give us the right to disturb others in enjoying their own right, etc. etc. I have seen classic dancers and nuevo dancers co-existing on the same floor rather nicely, however. A beautifully danced "nuevo" -- to some of Libedinsky's music, for example -- can be very poetic, artistic. and romantic. And it can feel really wonderful -- the interplay between the partners, the whole expanded way of dance conversation. I believe that it takes quite a skill to dance tango-nuevo well. I also believe that many shift to it from the start mistakenly believing that it is easier to dance that way. etc. etc. There are many reasons why people drift to it or simply choose to dance it, including myself who is just scratching the surface in that area. Is it possible that those who "bash" tango nuevo never looked at it with open eyes and open heart and open mind? I think that this may be an age old dynamic where the followers of old, established forms have hard time accepting the legitimacy of the new explorations. === seek, appreciate, and create beauty this life is not a rehearsal === - Original Message From: Mario <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: tango-l@mit.edu Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 3:54:39 PM Subject: [Tango-L] More Nuevo bashing. Why?? Hi David, you're right it is unseemly and unkind. I have to confess that I have a really strong negative feeling towards all that is Nuevo. I too am a close embrace dancer and if Nuevo takes over the Milongas ..I quit dancing. its as simple as that ...I would just as soon cha cha or salsa...and Tango is my passion.. so, what am I to do..pretend it's nice??? I hate it..I don't even like to look at it, let alone be on the same dance floor with it...why such an inability to 'understand' the negativity?? OK there it is and here I am..out there in all of my non nice ugliness..I started off wanting to make this a nicer post but why hide the truth..I hope others won't hate me and I hope Tango L.. won't punish me...hey, maybe I can be cured?? Maybe I need some mental adjustments?? sincerely but unkindly Mario - Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] More Nuevo Bashing - why?
Keith Elshaw wrote: "Explain about respectfully dancing in the ronda and keeping to your own space and not bumping and kicking - and all those good things?" Although I would not attempt it my self, I have observed excellent and considerate nuevo dancers execute volcadas in no more space than I require for a puente. I watched last week while a nuevo follow executed a low linear back boleo in less space than my usual partner requires for her ocho-cortado. Etc. As far as I can tell, bad ronda behavior is not required by nuevo tango. And when they do go a little crazy, the good nuevo dancers that I have seen appear to do it in the middle of the floor, and not by a surprise pass on my outside as some of my fellow close embrace dancers are wont to do. Bumping and kicking is just plain rude, and I fail to see it as a one of the requirements for dancing nuevo tango. I might be wrong, but I don't think so. Cheers, D. David Thorn _ Get Free (PRODUCT) RED™ Emoticons, Winks and Display Pics. http://joinred.spaces.live.com?ocid=TXT_HMTG_prodredemoticons_052008 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] More Nuevo Bashing - why?
Sounds like different people call different things "Tango Nuevo". It might be useful for the benefit of this discussion to hear from those who have contributed so far as what they actually consider to be 'tango nuevo", how they would describe it, and possibly name some dancers, preferably extremely famous for the sake of recognition by most, as clear examples of the dancing they perceive as "nuevo". Thank you. Nina Quoting David Thorn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > Keith Elshaw wrote: > "Explain about respectfully dancing in the ronda and keeping to your own > space and not bumping and kicking - and all those good things?" > > Although I would not attempt it my self, I have observed excellent > and considerate > nuevo dancers execute volcadas in no more space than I require for a > puente. I watched > last week while a nuevo follow executed a low linear back boleo in > less space than > my usual partner requires for her ocho-cortado. Etc. As far as I > can tell, bad > ronda behavior is not required by nuevo tango. And when they do go > a little crazy, the > good nuevo dancers that I have seen appear to do it in the middle of > the floor, > and not by a surprise pass on my outside as some of my fellow close embrace > dancers are wont to do. > > Bumping and kicking is just plain rude, and I fail to see it as a one of the > requirements for dancing nuevo tango. I might be wrong, but I don't > think so. > > Cheers, > > D. David Thorn > > _ > Get Free (PRODUCT) RED™ Emoticons, Winks and Display Pics. > http://joinred.spaces.live.com?ocid=TXT_HMTG_prodredemoticons_052008 > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > http://www.earthnet.net Boulder's Premier Datacenter Network, email, and web servers powered by renewable wind energy. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] More Nuevo Bashing - why?
At 05:06 PM 5/12/2008, David Thorn wrote: >Keith Elshaw wrote: >"Explain about respectfully dancing in the ronda and keeping to your own >space and not bumping and kicking - and all those good things?" >... And when they do go a little crazy, the good nuevo dancers that >I have seen appear to do it in the middle of the floor, >... That's part of the problem. Why are they dancing in the middle of the floor -- out of the ronda? Marty Waxman ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] More Nuevo Bashing - why?
Something to chew on: As it was originally conceived nuevo tango was largely a pedagogic approach to tango that emphasized a structural analysis of the dance in which previously unexplored combinations of steps and new figures can be found. Some of those exploring those possibilities gradually developed it into a style that is danced in an open, loose or elastic embrace with a very upright posture, and great emphasis is placed on dancers maintaining their own axes. Although some advocates of tango nuevo emphasize a new structural analysis over specific figures, some of the identifiable figures in nuevo tango are overturn ochos and change of directions in turns, which are most easily accomplished in a loose or elastic embrace. The dancers most often identified with nuevo tango are Gustavo Naveira, Fabian Salas and Chicho Frumboli. In just these three people, you see some progression from it being mostly a pedagogic approach to it being mostly a style of dancing tango. Among the younger generation of nuevo dancers are Homer and Christina Ladas and Andres Amarilla and Meredith Klein. I have no objection to how any of these people dance. All of them are capable of dancing in the ronda and with the music. My objections are to the bozo and bozoette who were in front of me and my partner at a recent milonga who were pursuing some new innovation without regard to the ronda or the rhythm of the music being played. These same objections hold for other oblivious dancers pursuing elaborate, space-consuming figures in other styles of tango. With best regards, Steve ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] More Nuevo bashing. Why??
I think there are two or more definitions of nuevo tango. (1) I learned from Gustavo, Fabian and Chicho back in the last century, and as far as I understand, they taught Argentine Tango. They developed a method for analyzing, learning and training in Argentine Tango. They tried steps on both sides, or reversed the leader's step to the follower, and examined what you had to change for things to work. Sometimes that meant compromising the embrace, or sometimes that meant dropping the embrace. Of particular value to me from that training was the concept of axis, and maintaining a balance between the axis of the partners. I use this concept whether I'm dancing open or close, and it is immensely useful for diagnosis of technical flaws when learning new moves or teaching. But, all those concepts are about learning traditional Argentine Tango, as well as the techniques which make it easy and make a wide variety of steps possible. If you watch Gustavo dance, his style of dancing appears very much in the school of traditional salon or salon/ fantasy tango. He has a knack for making an extremely difficult move appear super-easy. (2) Now, if I understand correctly, some people these days are using the term Nuevo Tango to mean a different style of tango, or tango danced to non-tango music, or tango danced without respect for the dance floor, or tango as a collection of "cool moves" (like the the mermaid move, where the leader picks up the follower and swings her legs around in a giant circle while she flips her feet like fins; Laugh away, I've seen it!) To me, this second definition of Nuevo Tango isn't really about tango. I mean, at a practice or on stage dance to whatever music you want, or dance whatever style you want, or do whatever cool moves you want. It's a free world. There are no rules about what steps are legal or aren't. C (3) A milonga is something different from stage or a practice floor. A milonga is a social setting in which there are certain rules and conventions. Mostly, these can be boiled down to: respecting the people around you, fitting into the social environment and energy of the crowd, listening and dancing to the music, taking care of your partner and using good floor-craft. Or am I wrong? Are there actually people who advocate that you can do whatever you want at a milonga: running into people or racing around or zig-zagging between lanes? On May 12, 2008, at 1:44 PM, David Thorn wrote: > I may be a 60 something close embrace dancer, but I am almost > embarrassed > by the curmudgeonly attitudes expressed by my fellow dancers. I > remain totally > unable to comprehend the animosity towards what is merely an > extension of > traditional tango, and which is danced by many (including Andres & > his wife > Meredith) to traditional tango music with beauty, grace, and > musicality. > > Is it jealousy? Is it fear of change? Is it bad tribal behavior? > Evolutionary biology meets grouchy old people? I'm clueless! > > Cheers, > > D. David Thorn ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] More Nuevo bashing. Why??
> nuevo tango is merely a "means of analysis that enables us to identify > the movements and combinations of movements that are common in > traditional tango, and to re-use them in ways that are not common in > traditional tango." I wonder if the nuevo scientists stopped to think why those ways are not common in traditional tango. The traditional dance is the result of letting the music and the dancers' feeling for it select what works. Nuevo is the result of using what remains. > [nuevo] is merely an extension of traditional tango, and which is danced > by many ... with beauty, grace, and musicality. Here's a test of the 'musicality'. Take the first two videos on http://eng.tango.info/videos/AndreAmari and imagine the picture from #1 played with the music from #2. Would you even notice the switch? -- Chris ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] More Nuevo bashing. Why??
Martin Waxman wrote: > At 03:44 PM 5/12/2008, David Thorn wrote: >> I'm clueless! > > It's simple. No, it's not, unless you're desperate to bin a continuum of dance expressions in two bins just for the sake of polarisation (and "us" versus "them" games), and somehow ascribe virtues to one side only and vices to the other (I'm not *entirely* sure than only nuevo dancers dare dance against the line of dance, or that only they dance as if they had concrete cast in both their ears). -- Alexis Cousein [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
