Re: [Tango-L] No Nuevo (as a style) - according to the Naveiras
Jack Dylan wrote: Many people on this list are determined to pigeon hole people into styles, and even to ascribe certain properties one would normally associate to individual couples to a style, all as if they were stating universal truths when they proclaim the association as valid. In that case, how would you distinguish [Argentine] Tango from Ballroom, American or Finish Tango? Or even Foxtrot, Quickstep or Rumba? They're danced to 4x4 music and could be danced to Tango music. Those *are* different species. There are no (fertile) hybrids that I can see, clearly defined sets of phenotypes that differentiate species and clear phylogenetic evidence for classification as different species (you can't fail to see that different Argentine tango styles all evolved out of a common gene pool but that Ballroom had completely other roots, complete with historical evidence for when Ballroom was derived from - or rather synthesized with grafts from - Argentine tango). There *is* even habitat separation that would form a hard species barrier even if the forms could in theory have fertile offspring (even though I don't think they could, as there are too many fundamental traits that are incompatible). I call red herring (it's clear that you yourself don't believe for an instant that there is no difference and that you're only asking a rhetorical question), but thanks for the effort. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] No Nuevo (as a style) - according to the Naveiras
From: ECSEDY Áron a...@milonga.hu We have made a small experiment with some tango teachers (who - even by their own admission - have fairly similar styles and priorities) in Hungary: The task was to do the same: lead simple backwards ochos (there was no other desription of the task, to allow for personal differences to emerge). I don't really get this. No one has ever suggested that those dancing the same 'style' would dance EXACTLY the same and would 'feel' the same to every partner. On that premise everyone in the world dances a different 'style'. Maybe that's what you're trying to say but I don't think you need any experiments to prove what everyone already knows. Jack ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] No Nuevo (as a style) - according to the Naveiras
On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 4:00 AM, burak ozkosem burakta...@gmail.com wrote: There are no alternative milongas or nights that you can hear electronic tango or alternative music more than 50% of the whole playlist. There is no venue in Buenos Aires where you can hear a lot of non-Tango music for dancing purposes. Actually, there is one venue that fits this description. Milonga Otros Buenos aires (http://www.moba.thetangosite.com/blog/?p=543) was set up with that specific goal in mind abrazos -- Yours in dance dementia, Niki ( http://tangotrails.blogspot.com ) ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] No Nuevo (as a style) - according to the Naveiras
Jack Dylan wrote: I don't really get this. No one has ever suggested that those dancing the same 'style' would dance EXACTLY the same and would 'feel' the same to every partner. On that premise everyone in the world dances a different 'style'. Exactly my point. What exactly defines a style? Many people on this list are determined to pigeon hole people into styles, and even to ascribe certain properties one would normally associate to individual couples to a style, all as if they were stating universal truths when they proclaim the association as valid. We can't even use the equivalent of the biological 'species' to mark styles, given styles most evidently interbreed (for the moment -- see below ), which means that styles are a bit like the ill-fated race in biology. You know a race when you see it, but you should know better than to take it as having an absolute value, and you should be mindful of the fact that phenotypes can be expressed or hidden in particular individuals in very complex manners. The only way in which styles would really become mechanisms for speciation would be forced segregation, i.e. apartheid. I know some people actually advocate this (possibly in an attempt to keep their race pure), but I have just as much sympathy for apartheid as a system in tango as I had for it in other matters. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] No Nuevo (as a style) - according to the Naveiras
On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 9:24 AM, Alexis Cousein a...@sgi.com wrote: The only way in which styles would really become mechanisms for speciation would be forced segregation, i.e. apartheid. I know some people actually advocate this (possibly in an attempt to keep their race pure), but I have just as much sympathy for apartheid as a system in tango as I had for it in other matters. I love it. Tango apartheid! That's hysterical. Alexis is making a good point, demonstrating just how absurd extremes can be. You know, if you really care what everybody else is doing all the time, there's just no end to how annoying the human race can be. Those milongas de barrio that we were talking about before can be so much fun. Sometimes you can't even really call them milongas, if by milonga you mean specifically a tango party. They'll have some tango, some cumbia, some swing. They have a ball. I walked out of those places thinking, these people really know how to party. They dance all sorts of dances in all sorts of ways. (Incidentally, the swing you see them dancing in Argentina is frequently not pure swing because it isn't the real swing we originated here in the U.S. Fortunately, nobody has told them they're not supposed to be enjoying themselves so darn much.) So, if a true Tango Purist wanted to segregate the styles by a policy of tango apartheid, does that mean that he would have to create separate districts (like bantustans) for specific tango styles? Milongastans! Or maybe you could have designated groups of songs for just certain kinds of dancers. Tandastans! Valerie -- Cryptic Ember Tango stories by pseudonymous author Valerie Dark http://crypticember.blogspot.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] No Nuevo (as a style) - according to the Naveiras
dancing, that we'd see each dancing to a different style of music. So forgive me Alexis at being perplexed with your response. I have been known After seeing the discussions, I have that feeling that either those who post on the subject had inadequate amount of exposure to different tango in different communities, different places, people and therefore are not really have the trained eye to differentiate (for the average Westerner all Chinese look the same), or they have the problem of not even trying to look. We have made a small experiment with some tango teachers (who - even by their own admission - have fairly similar styles and priorities) in Hungary: The task was to do the same: lead simple backwards ochos (there was no other desription of the task, to allow for personal differences to emerge). The lady was the same girl for each leader. From the outside although it was a general backward ocho there were major differences: - in the way it was shaped (more linerar, more curved) - in the way it was sized and moved (someone made it small, someone bigger to allow for the girl to do larger twists; also someone made it non-moving, someone moving slightly forwards for the leader, someone played unconsciously or consciously with the directions) - in the way it was felt by the follower (since she was a teacher she could tell the formal differences, but she could also tell which leader whe preferred and why - the quality and consistency of the connection was an important factor) - in the way the followers posture and ability to be technically perfect was effected by the complex choices (or call it style) made by the leader Based on the above we have tried and analyzed some more complex moves as well. We have conluded that it is a very powerful tool to have people show the differences, because then they understand that it is completely normal to have their own style of dancing - even more: it is inevitable. This liberates a lot of people and makes the process of improvization and learning technique a lot more relaxed. My observation is, that as you go up the tango scale, the differences are getting huge. Many of the differences are ultimately linked to personality shining through people's dancing (when technical difficulties cease to be a problem, personality is taking over more and more priorities), some of these are personal preferences, some of them depend on the partner-combination, some the music, some the mood. Given all this, I cannot possibily imagine that any good dancer's natural style could match another's (if we rule out intentional copying - but even then there will be differences: it will, in most cases, just look like a caricature of the original). Cheers, Aron Budapest, Hungary ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] No Nuevo (as a style) - according to the Naveiras
Anton, The clubes de barrio are not always in the outskirts of BsAs, but just small social clubs in neighborhoods that tourists never go to. What makes them generally different to the big milongas everyone knows about is that Generally everyone knows each other and dance with their friends; There's less cabeceo; People sit in long tables and groups and are not divided by sex; Classical tangos are played but there is more tropical and folklore; Usually food, real food not snacks, is served and people have dinner; The level of tango is lower; Often the event is called a baile, not a milonga. It can be lots of fun to visit such dances, but only if you go with friends. cherie http://tangocherie.blogspot.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] No Nuevo (as a style) - according to the Naveiras
i have only ever been to club bohemios in la boca cherie and it fits in with everything you have listed. except for one thing.. the bodyguard to escort our foursome back to the main drag to catch a cab. the taxis would not come when we rang (twice) and my streetwise porteña was in no way going to walk the one cuadro without a local caballero only in bs.as ?? cheers tony On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 5:20 AM, macfro...@aol.com wrote: Anton, The clubes de barrio are not always in the outskirts of BsAs, but just small social clubs in neighborhoods that tourists never go to. What makes them generally different to the big milongas everyone knows about is that Generally everyone knows each other and dance with their friends; There's less cabeceo; People sit in long tables and groups and are not divided by sex; Classical tangos are played but there is more tropical and folklore; Usually food, real food not snacks, is served and people have dinner; The level of tango is lower; Often the event is called a baile, not a milonga. It can be lots of fun to visit such dances, but only if you go with friends. cherie http://tangocherie.blogspot.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l -- cheers tony ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] No Nuevo (as a style) - according to the Naveiras
Anton Stanley wrote: Diversity of music or diversity of style? Go to a place with 50 really good couples and you'll have 50 styles of tango. Otherwise, the couples aren't *REALLY* good ;). ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] No Nuevo (as a style) - according to the Naveiras
On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 11:17 PM, Jack Dylan jackdylan...@yahoo.com wrote: It seems we now have 2 separate Tangos that cannot assimilate and I don't think this has happened before. I like to go to the milongas de barrio away from El Centro in Buenos Aires. You see dancing you could never have imagined. Two separate tangos? Try two hundred! The diversity is fabulous. Tango is a folk dance. Though there may be core elements that are more or less evident throughout tango, social tango isn't the codified sport you might see at Blackpool. Thank goodness! Valerie -- Cryptic Ember Tango stories by pseudonymous author Valerie Dark http://crypticember.blogspot.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] No Nuevo (as a style) - according to the Naveiras
From: Valerie Dark valerie.d...@gmail.com I like to go to the milongas de barrio away from El Centro in Buenos Aires. You see dancing you could never have imagined. Two separate tangos? Try two hundred! The diversity is fabulous. But they're not separate are they? Everyone is dancing happily on the same dance floor to the same music. But Nuevo in BsAs have their own milongas [called practicas] and often have their own music. Aren't they separated from the rest of the Tango community? Aren't they even separated by BsAs city laws? Jack ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] No Nuevo (as a style) - according to the Naveiras
I want to make a clarification about the presence of Tango Nuevo in Buenos Aires Tango Scene. First of all, there are three different scenes in Buenos Aires Tango life: -Milongas and Practicas (Social Tango) -Schools/classes (Pedagogic Tango) -Entertainment Industry (Cena shows, music showcases) -Milongas and Practicas (Social Tango) There is no dance related sign of any Tango Nuevo on the dance floor. (Wearing baggy pants, or sneakers, or dancing badly is nothing to do with Tango Nuevo Concept). There are no alternative milongas or nights that you can hear electronic tango or alternative music more than 50% of the whole playlist. Milongas and Practicas are still very crowded and people go there to socialize mainly and practicas are dominated by younger crowd. There is a collaborative effort of some organizers who promote each others events, therefore there is a huge orientation towards these venues like La X, Practica 8, SoHo, TangoLab, Tango Cool, Milonga 10 etc. Most of these venues play ONLY traditional Tango musi and others play 1-2 sets of non-tango music only. These venues share the same clientele which is very different than the early-night regulars of Canning/Nino Bien/ El Beso/ La Viru/Sunderland etc. These two groups of regulars meet at these popular milongas after 2am. There are practicas run by Tango Schools which are mainly for working Tango rather than socializing focused like DNI Practica, There is no venue in Buenos Aires where you can hear a lot of non-Tango music for dancing purposes. -Schools/classes (Pedagogic Tango) This group of tango venues is where one can see Tango Nuevo method. Most of the Tango schools and classes sustained by Foreigners not Argentines, so there was a competition to attract foreigner dancers to classes with fancy titles, new concepts etc. Foreigners thought that Tango Nuevo came out of Buenos Aires as a style, but this misconception is changing finally. Those teachers who were offering such classes don't apply the tools they teach while they are dancing at milongas. -Entertainment There is a controversial situation in Electronic Tango scene in Buenos Aires which creates confusion. Most of the Tango musicians-mostly bandoneon players who ended up in Electronic Tango bands are not happy with what they produce, however financial attraction and opportunities are driving forces for those musicians to continue. Of course some believes what they are trying to do is right. Electronic Tango scenes still attract mainly non-tango people and foreigner dancers in Buenos Aires. Cena shows and stage productions are slightly under the influence of Tango Nuevo, however I wouldn't say that Tango Nuevo is present in this group of Tango scene in Buenos Aires. Tango Fantasia is designed for stage dancers whose background is dance and for the purpose of performing on the stage, despite of the fact that it's the most artistic and well sustained Tango industry, it will never be part of the Tango polemics and style wars. To sum up, I can say that Tango Nuevo method can be seen in the classes because it's a learning tool and it's nothing to do with music or venue or the outfit you wear. Since there are too many teachers in Buenos Aires, Tango Nuevo along with so-called Real Tango, Milonguero style, is being used as a marketing tool and to look different, so foreigners would choose their classes over others. Bests Burak Chicago www.buraktangoweek.com www.miamitangomarathon.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] No Nuevo (as a style) - according to the Naveiras
Valerie wrote I like to go to the milongas de barrio away from El Centro in Buenos Aires. You see dancing you could never have imagined. Two separate tangos? Try two hundred! The diversity is fabulous. Diversity of music or diversity of style? Anton ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] No Nuevo (as a style) - according to the Naveiras
Interesting difference in titles from the Spanish to the English versions for the article too. Federico: I like all styles, except the new tango which doesn't exist for me. What was danced in the '40s was more modern than what was danced in the '20s, there's always been something newer than what was before. Yet their poses in the photos suggests new tango. Interesting. This article and a few others lately seem to be saying the same message of redefining the nuevo style. Is this a blinkered view of tango, or am I the one who is blind? Vince in Melbourne ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] No Nuevo (as a style) - according to the Naveiras
From: Vince Bagusauskas vy...@hotmail.com Federico: I like all styles, except the new tango which doesn't exist for me. What was danced in the '40s was more modern than what was danced in the '20s, there's always been something newer than what was before. This is the mantra of Nuevo. This group of young, talented dancers in BsAs obviously believe they are at the forefront of 'modern tango'. But are they? Or, despite what Federico says, are they dancing a completely new and different kind of tango while the previous Tango continues unaffected and, largely, disinterested. It seems we now have 2 separate Tangos that cannot assimilate and I don't think this has happened before. But my guess is that Nuevo will always need the tag of 'tango' to attract an audience? Jack ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
