[Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow
Jack Dylan wrote >But they appear to be figures that both of the couple must know. If the lady >doesn't know how to dance Volcadas and Colgadas, they cannot be led by the man. Related to my point about nuevo consisting of "elements", if a follow doesn't understand being tipped even while being lead (supported with suspension) to do so, she won't get it. If she doesn't understand how to follow the energy of the lead, she will miss the sweep, as well as linear boleos, etc Nuevo follows don't have to know any figures, but they do need the technique that allows them to hear and respond to the tiny elements that are part of nuevo. How is this any different from expecting your follow to wait, to not shuffle her feet unlead, etc.? Yes it does require the both the lead and follow have a whole additional set of skills, but it does not require that they have any figures in common. Cheers David _ Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety. http://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_family_safety_072008 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching
> What people think of as "nuevo" isn't really entirely new. Perhaps we should some up with a term other than > "nuevo" like "post-nuevo" (sort of like modern architecture was in the 1940's and then came post-modern). They movement vocabulary associated with tango nuevo dancing is not really new at all. The main thing that separates what people now are calling "nuevo" from what people are calling "traditional" is that more things are permitted in nuevo. Dress code, embrace code, and feet on the floor code are all subverted in tango nuevo. As has been mentioned before many times, the main things that are transmitted by so-called "tango nuevo" teachers are not so much the figures as the teaching methods and approaches to practicing. ( I think one of the clearest posts on this ambiguous term called "tango nuevo" is by Tom Stermitz : http://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2005/msg00035.html ) I agree that "tango nuevo" is a misleading name. For a descriptive purpose, I think it is more accurate to label styles according to place (e.g., ballroom/salon, street/canyengue, club, suburban/orilla, west coast) or according to originator/propagator (Susana Miller, Fabian Salas). To label types of dancing as the traditional and the new tends to be reductive and subjective. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching
>From the woman's perspective, I agree with David. One of the reasons women >have trouble with volcadas and colgadas is a lack of a good core. Having a >good core is something most women have to work at moreso than men. I used to think like Jack - that the woman needed to know the figure. But a few years ago, an Argentine friend who has been a professional tango dancer (salon) for over 30 years led me into a small colgada, and I said "Hey, that was a colgada" and he said "what's that?" And I realized that we had been dancing colgadas for years but neither of us new the name of it until I took some nuevo workshops. And he wasn't the only one doing that particular move. I recalled other salon dancers making comments during practicas like "turns seem to be easier if you lean back" long before neuvo came to my part of the country. So I've concluded that the techniques in nuevo can arise organically from experimentation or accident and that what we now see as a "nuevo" figure merely uses an exaggeration of something already present in classic tango figures. A purposeful exaggeration can then lead to developing other techniques. So a related question, then, is "if these techniques can arise organically, why don't they arise more often?". I believe the answer to that is because people will suppress these discoveries unless they are validated by a credible teacher. Because if someone didn't teach it, then it couldn't be right. This way of thinking goes against the entire grain of how tango developed in the first place. Trini de Pittsburgh --- On Fri, 7/25/08, David Thorn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: David Thorn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow > To: "tango-l" > Date: Friday, July 25, 2008, 2:45 PM > Jack Dylan wrote > >But they appear to be figures that both of the couple > must know. If the lady > >doesn't know how to dance Volcadas and Colgadas, > they cannot be led by the man. > > Related to my point about nuevo consisting of > "elements", if a follow doesn't understand > being tipped even while > being lead (supported with suspension) to do so, she > won't get it. If she doesn't understand how to > follow the energy > of the lead, she will miss the sweep, as well as linear > boleos, etc Nuevo follows don't have to know any > figures, but > they do need the technique that allows them to hear and > respond to the tiny elements that are part of nuevo. How > is > this any different from expecting your follow to wait, to > not shuffle her feet unlead, etc.? > > Yes it does require the both the lead and follow have a > whole additional set of skills, but it does not require > that they > have any figures in common. > > Cheers > > David ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching
Trini, Very true. When a lady is tipped into a Vocada, she needs to be able to keep her body straight so that only a horizontal force is exerted against the man. The man can then support this with his body weight and no strength is required. [The typical Gavito Lean]. Some ladies sag into the man, i.e. concave shape, thereby exerting a downward force and the man must then use his strength to support the lady. Other ladies stick their bums out, i.e. convex shape, which reduces the force on the man. The problem with this is the man might over-compesate because he's expecting more forward force and he can tip forward, off balance. But, while keeping a straight body while leaning forward is easy for a 20-year old girl, it's often a different story for a 50-year old lady, unless she's already a trained dancer. In this context, one problem that I often have is that I'm quite tall and I have a problem with the leaning action when the lady is considerably shorter and we don't have a good chest-to-chest contact. Jack - Original Message > From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) [EMAIL PROTECTED] > One of the reasons women > have trouble with volcadas and colgadas is a lack of a good core. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching
--- On Sun, 7/27/08, Jack Dylan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: Jack Dylan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching > To: "Tango-L" > Date: Sunday, July 27, 2008, 2:28 PM > Trini, > Very true. When a lady is tipped into a Vocada, she needs > to be able to keep her body straight so that only a horizontal force > is exerted against the man. The man can then support this with his body > weight and no strength is required. [The typical Gavito Lean]. On top of this, guys will take a new partner and try to lead her into a volcada without even checking if she's comfortable with a lean first. That's irresponsible. So we always tell our students to check first by leading her into a bridge or a small calesita with a lean. And if she can't do that, don't even try a volcada. But for the woman, the other issues are 1)having a loose leg and 2)trusting her partner. So a small step diagonally away and then back again may result in a small volcada, which the woman could interpret as simply a cross off-axis. >From the perspective of teaching, however, I have found it useful to teach the >exaggerated movements to get women to loosen their free leg and develop a >core. What I have noticed in our community recently is that the newer women >are not taking classes but they are still getting danced with. So the women >may get the step but they are not developing the technique and bodywork needed >for the moves to develop naturally. So they are confusing pattern recognition >with following. Which means the intermediate men don't get the feedback that >they really need. This is a new phase for our community, so we'll see how everything turns out. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching
Oh yeah, I recognise that. I know some intermediate guys that teach their own partner and they actually look quite good together. The problem comes when the girl tries to dance with somebody else and she has no idea what the man wants her to do because she can't recognise a 'familiar pattern'. Another problem is groups who learn together at the same classes and dance together a lot. They have problems when they mix with other groups. Oh, are we talking Nuevo again? :-) But, seriously, I've actually read a couple of jokers on this list [Chris and another I forget] who seen to advocate no classes for ladies. Are they serious or did I mis-read their meaning? Jack - Original Message > From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) [EMAIL PROTECTED] > So the women may get the > step but they are not developing the technique and bodywork needed for the > moves > to develop naturally. So they are confusing pattern recognition with > following. Which means the intermediate men don't get the feedback that they > really need. > This is a new phase for our community, so we'll see how everything turns out. > > Trini de Pittsburgh > > > > > > > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching
Another reason why it's important for women to keep a strong core when doing volcadas is that leaning with a sway back puts a lot of strain on the lower back muscles and can injure them. J _ Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety. http://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_family_safety_072008 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching
Trini, I know exactly what you're talking about and maybe I'm too cynical but I don't think the guys who dance with women who don't take classes are looking for feedback on their tango. I suspect their motives lie elsewhere. o_O If a man is really interested in tango, he's going to dance with women who are interested enough to take some classes and are actually learning how to dance properly and are not just stumbling around while hanging on to a man's neck. But, like I say, maybe I'm just too cynical and I might be completely wrong - but I don't think so :-) Jack - Original Message > From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > What I have noticed in our community recently is that the newer women are not > taking classes but they are still getting danced with. So the women may get > the > step but they are not developing the technique and bodywork needed for the > moves > to develop naturally. So they are confusing pattern recognition with > following. Which means the intermediate men don't get the feedback that they > really need. > This is a new phase for our community, so we'll see how everything turns out. > > Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching
--- On Mon, 7/28/08, Jack Dylan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I know exactly what you're talking about and maybe > I'm too cynical but I don't think the guys who dance with women who don't > take classes are looking for feedback on their tango. I suspect their motives > lie elsewhere. o_O Oh, no. The young ones will get dances, regardless, even by the top dancers here. Most of the men here are very good about taking classes, workshops, and attending the practicas. They're also good about encouraging the women to go to the practicas and take classes. But the newer women still don't go. They think that because they know some steps, they don't need to take the lessons where they can really work on their technique. Before, the new women would at least attend some regular classes before stopping. But these new women aren't taking anything. And I feel the problems cropping up in the men when I dance with them. Have to figure out what to do about that. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching
Jack Dylan wrote: If a man is really interested in tango, he's going to dance with women who are > interested enough to take some classes and are actually learning how to dance > properly and are not just stumbling around while hanging on to a man's neck. > But, like I say, maybe I'm just too cynical and I might be completely wrong - > but > I don't think so :) I don't think, you are wrong, Jack, I wish you were... Reminds me: couple of weeks ago I went to a milonga I do not usually attend, and there were some middle aged men I know from other places but don't dance with much and they had a young woman at their table... she was dressed in a light blue ballroom gown and did not have a clue about tango, and they were both fussing over her, taking turns in taking her out on the dance floor where she kept wobbling in her shoes and stumbling over her own feet, with her toes turned inward and losing her balance at every other step as she did not know how to follow nor seemed to know a single tango step. I kept wondering what a big ego boost this must be for those guys, who probably looked like God's gift to dance to a woman like that, and they got their hands on her too... ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching
from my own personal experience, I stopped taking classes in my home town
because the classes were all about STEPS ('put your left leg here, and then
your right leg there...' ) I could just as easily practice technique in a
milonga or in my own living room, without the 'pleasure ' of being
manhandled by some guy who was simply trying to get his feet in the right
spot, without it even crossing his, or the instructor's, mind that he
actually needed to learn how to LEAD.
On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Astrid <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jack Dylan wrote:
> If a man is really interested in tango, he's going to dance with women
> who are
> > interested enough to take some classes and are actually learning how to
> dance
> > properly and are not just stumbling around while hanging on to a man's
> neck.
> > But, like I say, maybe I'm just too cynical and I might be completely
> wrong - but
> > I don't think so :)
> I don't think, you are wrong, Jack, I wish you were...
> Reminds me: couple of weeks ago I went to a milonga I do not usually
> attend, and there were some middle aged men I know from other places but
> don't dance with much and they had a young woman at their table... she
> was dressed in a light blue ballroom gown and did not have a clue about
> tango, and they were both fussing over her, taking turns in taking her
> out on the dance floor where she kept wobbling in her shoes and
> stumbling over her own feet, with her toes turned inward and losing her
> balance at every other step as she did not know how to follow nor seemed
> to know a single tango step.
> I kept wondering what a big ego boost this must be for those guys, who
> probably looked like God's gift to dance to a woman like that, and they
> got their hands on her too...
> ___
> Tango-L mailing list
> Tango-L@mit.edu
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
>
--
Yours in dance dementia,
Niki
( http://tangotrails.blogspot.com )
___
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Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching
The idea is to find an instructor who is able to teach you what you need
to know. Tango is not really about where you put your legs, the lead
comes first, the legs follow that.
Niki Papapetrou wrote:
> from my own personal experience, I stopped taking classes in my home
> town because the classes were all about STEPS ('put your left leg
> here, and then your right leg there...' ) I could just as easily
> practice technique in a milonga or in my own living room, without the
> 'pleasure ' of being manhandled by some guy who was simply trying to
> get his feet in the right spot, without it even crossing his, or the
> instructor's, mind that he actually needed to learn how to LEAD.
>
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Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching
exactly
On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 1:15 PM, Astrid <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The idea is to find an instructor who is able to teach you what you need to
> know. Tango is not really about where you put your legs, the lead comes
> first, the legs follow that.
>
>
> Niki Papapetrou wrote:
>
>> from my own personal experience, I stopped taking classes in my home town
>> because the classes were all about STEPS ('put your left leg here, and then
>> your right leg there...' ) I could just as easily practice technique in a
>> milonga or in my own living room, without the 'pleasure ' of being
>> manhandled by some guy who was simply trying to get his feet in the right
>> spot, without it even crossing his, or the instructor's, mind that he
>> actually needed to learn how to LEAD.
>>
>
>
--
Yours in dance dementia,
Niki
( http://tangotrails.blogspot.com )
___
Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L@mit.edu
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching
"Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: [...] > But the newer women still don't go. They think that because they > know some steps, they don't need to take the lessons where they can > really work on their technique. Maybe they don't need to go to classes/lessons. Maybe they're already enjoying dancing. And, of course, perhaps they perceive that the available classes/lessons wouldn't be worth their while for whatever reason, so even if they *want* to learn more, they don't see a time/cost-efficient way to do so. [...] ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching
You haven't seen some of these women dance. One was an actual danger on the dance floor with this uncontrollable leg that just had to do a sweep at every turn. But even the experienced guys (including the pickiest guy in our community) still danced with her because she was young and blond. Thank goodness she went away for the summer. But that's not my point in this thread. My point is that when women have the bodywork and technique, then they can be lead into a colgada or volcada without having been taught the step. However, getting to that point requires a lot of work, but achieving it can enable discoveries that one thinks of as "nuevo" (as opposed to someone giving you directions to create something). And if these discoveries occur independently in more than one place, then wouldn't this be a suggestion of an organic technique? I think these discoveries may have occurred years ago but that exploring these techniques were not encouraged. In fact, they were probably put down because "so-and-so taught that it this way, so this other way must not be right". Until someone finally came along and said "this is a valid way of doing such-and-such". What people think of as "nuevo" isn't really entirely new. Perhaps we should some up with a term other than "nuevo" like "post-nuevo" (sort of like modern architecture was in the 1940's and then came post-modern). Trini de Pittsburgh --- On Mon, 7/28/08, Bruce Stephens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: Bruce Stephens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching > To: "Tango-L" > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 1:15 PM > "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > [...] > > > But the newer women still don't go. They think > that because they > > know some steps, they don't need to take the > lessons where they can > > really work on their technique. > > Maybe they don't need to go to classes/lessons. Maybe > they're already > enjoying dancing. > > And, of course, perhaps they perceive that the available > classes/lessons wouldn't be worth their while for > whatever reason, so > even if they *want* to learn more, they don't see a > time/cost-efficient way to do so. > > [...] > > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching
"My point is that when women have the bodywork and technique, then they can be lead into a colgada or volcada without having been taught the step. However, getting to that point requires a lot of work" I am / was very sure that this was true regarding cose embrace / apilado. Now, as I watch people, who have paired off, practice the same "nuevo" / stage / fantasia "moves" over and over again. I'm not so sure. I never see then practicing "bodywork and technique". And they never seem to "practice" these movements with anyone other than "their" partner, or a very small subset of people. The problem is, in developing bodywork and technique, it is almost certain that they will encounter colgadas and / or volcadas repeatedly. And, chances are that they will do so with the same individual, many, many times. Now, I'm quite a bit less certain what to think. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching
--- On Mon, 7/28/08, steve pastor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: steve pastor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo lead and follow and repressed teaching > To: "Tango-L" > Date: Monday, July 28, 2008, 7:24 PM > "My point is that when women have the bodywork and > technique, then they can be lead into a colgada or volcada > without having been taught the step. However, getting to > that point requires a lot of work" > > I am / was very sure that this was true regarding cose embrace / apilado. > Now, as I watch people, who have paired off, practice the same "nuevo" / > stage / fantasia "moves" over and over again. I'm not so sure. > > I never see then practicing "bodywork and technique". And they never seem to > "practice" these movements with anyone other than "their" partner, or a > very small subset of people. I can't generalize about the people who see, who I've never seen. I can tell you that technique and bodywork are best practiced by oneself, off the dancefloor. If one wants to make efficient use of one's time, I would say that when you have a partner available, then work on your communication skills and the application of technique. It's when you're by yourself, which is most of the time, that you work on technique and bodywork. That's when you can pay attention to you. However, the relationship between nuevo and bodywork/technique may be a catch-22. The vocabulary we think of as nuevo (such as the bigger colgada and volcadas) require some athleticism to do well. They are exaggerations of the smaller movements we can find in salon. It's in repeating these exaggerations that the average person finds the weaknesses in their bodywork. Once those weaknesses are found and developed, then you can tell the differences easily. However, it's difficult to feel that knowledge kinesthetically when it's just a tad different. Sort of like trying to differentiate different shades of gray when they are not side-by-side on a color chart. But it's really no different than when you're first learning to do turns. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
