[Tango-L] Strong Lead -resistance effect
I must say that a study of physics and body mechanics is a useful study. Sometimes it is the essential insight that improves my dance. However, at some point we have to conclude that the reason the tango works is because there are two sentient beings working very hard to make it work. The reason my frame does not separate is because the following partner is try so hard to overcome my mistakes. I find my best leads are when I chance upon the step she would most like to take. The more often I dance her dance, the better she likes my lead. Some of the Ancient Dinosaurs had two brains. One was used to operate the rear legs. I understand the brain that operated the rear legs was quite small and was a very primitive structure. The more things change... ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
I missed that, sorry.. Carol: "the more advanced the dancer, the less resistance is desired, because it allows more nuance." Actually it is opposite: Stronger resistance in body and in hands allows way more nuances. Incomparably more ! And there is strong scientific substantiation to that. Your view Carol is widespread, but just wish you to experience what I am talking about. Igor Polk ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
Igor: I agree completely with Carol that less resistance is desired. Resistance causes muscles to tense and when they tense, it's difficult to move them. However, you wrote that there is strong scientific substantiation. Where is the substantiation. Michael I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango - Original Message - From: "Igor Polk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect I missed that, sorry.. Carol: "the more advanced the dancer, the less resistance is desired, because it allows more nuance." Actually it is opposite: Stronger resistance in body and in hands allows way more nuances. And there is strong scientific substantiation to that. Igor Polk ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
Dear Michael I am so sorry you have no idea what resistance is.. Once you learn it, you will find it for yourself that you do not need any "substantiation". You just will not want to dance in any other way. Still, there is substantiation. I wrote quite a lot about in on my website. Not complete yet, sorry.. Igor Polk -Original Message- From: Michael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 12:23 To: Igor Polk; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: tango-l@mit.edu; Michael Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect Igor: I agree completely with Carol that less resistance is desired. Resistance causes muscles to tense and when they tense, it's difficult to move them. However, you wrote that there is strong scientific substantiation. Where is the substantiation. Michael I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango - Original Message - From: "Igor Polk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect I missed that, sorry.. Carol: "the more advanced the dancer, the less resistance is desired, because it allows more nuance." Actually it is opposite: Stronger resistance in body and in hands allows way more nuances. And there is strong scientific substantiation to that. Igor Polk ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
Igor: I now exactly what resistance is-- and why it's bad for dancing. There's a big difference between a firm lead--and resistance. Why would I want a woman to resist my lead? I want my partner and I to move around the floor like figure skaters, effortlessly, with minimal effort. Resistance causes muscles to tense and it's difficult to move a tense muscle. I went to a yoga therapist for three years to squeeze the tension out of my body, there was so much. I am so sorry you feel you have to dance with resistance. I'm even sorrier for your partners who have to dance with resistance. Michael I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango - Original Message - From: "Igor Polk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'Michael'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "'Igor Polk'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 3:48 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect Dear Michael I am so sorry you have no idea what resistance is.. Once you learn it, you will find it for yourself that you do not need any "substantiation". You just will not want to dance in any other way. Still, there is substantiation. I wrote quite a lot about in on my website. Not complete yet, sorry.. Igor Polk -Original Message- From: Michael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 12:23 To: Igor Polk; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: tango-l@mit.edu; Michael Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect Igor: I agree completely with Carol that less resistance is desired. Resistance causes muscles to tense and when they tense, it's difficult to move them. However, you wrote that there is strong scientific substantiation. Where is the substantiation. Michael I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango - Original Message - From: "Igor Polk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect I missed that, sorry.. Carol: "the more advanced the dancer, the less resistance is desired, because it allows more nuance." Actually it is opposite: Stronger resistance in body and in hands allows way more nuances. And there is strong scientific substantiation to that. Igor Polk ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
-- Original message -- From: "Igor Polk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I missed that, sorry.. > > Carol: "the more advanced the dancer, the > less resistance is desired, because it allows more nuance." > > Actually it is opposite: Stronger resistance in body and in hands allows way > more nuances. > Incomparably more ! > > And there is strong scientific substantiation to that. > > Your view Carol is widespread, but just wish you to experience what I am > talking about. > > Igor Polk -- Original message -- From: "Igor Polk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I missed that, sorry.. > > Carol: "the more advanced the dancer, the > less resistance is desired, because it allows more nuance." > > Actually it is opposite: Stronger resistance in body and in hands allows way > more nuances. > Incomparably more ! > > And there is strong scientific substantiation to that. > > Your view Carol is widespread, but just wish you to experience what I am > talking about. What kind of resistance are you talking about and how much though? I don't agree with resisting, except for teaching an absolute beginner, and even then I would get them to gradually back off. Are you confusing firmness with resistance? Being firm in the frame means an instantaneous resistance at the moment of lead for a turn say, but this is mild. One master teacher said 2lbs (less than 1Kg) of pressure at the instant of turn, and then back to nothing. Constantly resisting is tedious over time. There is such a thing as core strength that allows a person to feel and sense the subtlety of their dance partner much more easily. This is not resistance though. The very best dancers I have ever danced with provided little to no resistance, yet were incredibly sensitive. I used to require back pressure as a beginning leader. Now, I really dislike that style of dancing - I'm not a beefy male, and dancing with someone who weighs the same as I do and provides a lot of continuous resis tance in either step or frame is incredibly tiring. There's also the possibility of injury if you're talking about constant frame pressure -muscle injuries are not uncommon. Randy ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
First, I want to thank Igor for bringing this up, more or less bolding going where no man has gone before (I exaggerate, of course.) I came close to commenting on a light is characteristic of better dancers post a short time ago. "Resistance" creates a better connection between two bodies. It can help create a feeling of two bodies being joined so well that the man feels the woman's steps almost as if they are his own. It is similar to the sense we have of where the parts of our own body are - proprioception. (Good posture and clear transfer of weigh when stepping are also required.) I have seen over and over again, that women learn to "give more resistance" from their instructors. As time goes on, they forget this lesson as they are told repeatedly by male dancers that they are "being too heavy". This is think of as the community leveling effect. There seems to be a desire to achieve technical excellence and the ability to follow with barely a touch. This comes at the expense of the more earthy feeling of two bodies being joined in dance. And, as Igor points out (I think), it also comes at the expense of eliminating some movement vocabulary. This "lite" form of tango, to me, has more of a intellectual flavor. I've begun to think of it as "Nice Tango". And, by the way, more resistance can be achieved without "muscle tension", just as running downhill can be done without much effort by letting gravity move your body. Neither way of dancing AT is more right, except in the preferences of the dancer. I prefer more resistance, rather than less. I admit though, that I too, am awaiting Igor's post on scientific evidence. The complexities of the human body have so far defied my feeble attempts at quantification. Michael <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Igor: I now exactly what resistance is-- and why it's bad for dancing. There's a big difference between a firm lead--and resistance. Why would I want a woman to resist my lead? I want my partner and I to move around the floor like figure skaters, effortlessly, with minimal effort. Resistance causes muscles to tense and it's difficult to move a tense muscle. I went to a yoga therapist for three years to squeeze the tension out of my body, there was so much. I am so sorry you feel you have to dance with resistance. I'm even sorrier for your partners who have to dance with resistance. Michael I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango - Original Message - From: "Igor Polk" To: "'Michael'" ; "'Igor Polk'" ; Cc: Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 3:48 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect Dear Michael I am so sorry you have no idea what resistance is.. Once you learn it, you will find it for yourself that you do not need any "substantiation". You just will not want to dance in any other way. Still, there is substantiation. I wrote quite a lot about in on my website. Not complete yet, sorry.. Igor Polk -Original Message----- From: Michael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 12:23 To: Igor Polk; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: tango-l@mit.edu; Michael Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect Igor: I agree completely with Carol that less resistance is desired. Resistance causes muscles to tense and when they tense, it's difficult to move them. However, you wrote that there is strong scientific substantiation. Where is the substantiation. Michael I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango - Original Message - From: "Igor Polk" To: Cc: Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect I missed that, sorry.. Carol: "the more advanced the dancer, the less resistance is desired, because it allows more nuance." Actually it is opposite: Stronger resistance in body and in hands allows way more nuances. And there is strong scientific substantiation to that. Igor Polk ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l - Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
Maybe you can use this, Igor. Excerpt from a PhD thesis... Understanding the Haptic Interactions of Working Together Kyle Brandon Reed This is about haptic communication "communicating by touch". Kyle is a Lindy Hop dancer, too. There is much, much, more in this article. I found this excerpt with a quick search for "of forces". Somewhere she has "definition of forces", too. In some applications, forces can relay vital information. If the perception of forces is reduced, as in Shergill el al.âs study, or the transfer of forces is hindered, communication can be significantly diminished. Fly-By-Wire (FBW), a design for airplane control, eliminates the direct mechanical connection (and thus the forces) between the pilot and the planeâs control surfaces and also between the two pilots. Depending on the configuration and design of the FBW system, the flight sticks allow little or no haptic interaction between pilots. Summers et al. [94] conducted a series of experiments on pilots using a Flight Simulator at NASA Ames Research Center. They examined four different cases, ranked by the pilots in order from most preferred to least preferred: coupled, uncoupled with a disconnect switch, uncoupled with priority logic (essentially the largest input wins), and uncoupled (average of inputs). The pilots significantly preferred the coupled (haptic) FBW more than the uncoupled (non-haptic) FBW. They also found a significant performance decrement when using uncoupled FBW. Igor Polk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Dear Michael I am so sorry you have no idea what resistance is.. Once you learn it, you will find it for yourself that you do not need any "substantiation". You just will not want to dance in any other way. Still, there is substantiation. I wrote quite a lot about in on my website. Not complete yet, sorry.. Igor Polk -Original Message- From: Michael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 12:23 To: Igor Polk; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: tango-l@mit.edu; Michael Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect Igor: I agree completely with Carol that less resistance is desired. Resistance causes muscles to tense and when they tense, it's difficult to move them. However, you wrote that there is strong scientific substantiation. Where is the substantiation. Michael I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango - Original Message - From: "Igor Polk" To: Cc: Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect I missed that, sorry.. Carol: "the more advanced the dancer, the less resistance is desired, because it allows more nuance." Actually it is opposite: Stronger resistance in body and in hands allows way more nuances. And there is strong scientific substantiation to that. Igor Polk ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l - Don't let your dream ride pass you by.Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
I agree with Igor, but what is resistance? Should the follower forcefully resist? Or it is just the inertial resistance, according to the physics? I am convinced it is the inertia only, plus the desired constant force, created from the slight leaning that is always recommended - but this is not resistance by will. The follower is not resisting the movement, but by simply walking correctly, it may feel like resistance, but it's mainly inertial, and this helps keeping the good connection necessary. And yes, slight leaning is desired even in open embrace, and this is not limiting factor, it's a freeing one. - Original Message - From: "Igor Polk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2007 9:00 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect >I missed that, sorry.. > > Carol: "the more advanced the dancer, the > less resistance is desired, because it allows more nuance." > > Actually it is opposite: Stronger resistance in body and in hands allows > way > more nuances. > Incomparably more ! > > And there is strong scientific substantiation to that. > > Your view Carol is widespread, but just wish you to experience what I am > talking about. > > Igor Polk > > > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
Sorry Steve, I forgot to send this one to the list... So here it is: Again, Please, do not confuse ability to work with higher resistance with strong lead. Strong lead is a totally different thing than high resistance. The next is true: Strong leader is able to manipulate with low or high resistance at ease. And resistance is always present. Low resistance does not mean NO Resistance. No resistance means as it is: no high, no low one. And answering your question in a short sentence, Michael and Steve, here is some substantiation ( very short ) High resistance in a body allows high frequency oscillation to be transmitted easier - it means making you more sensitive to changes in small movements or sharp movements. It allows feedback to the leader - he feels her much better. It is by far does not explain all the effects possible with high resistance. ( a little clarification to people unfamiliar what "oscillation" means in scientific sense. If means sharper, smaller signals are transmitted and reacted to better. Not necessarily real oscillating moves, just changes. It means - yes, sensitivity ). As Steve put it, it allows bodies to be unified in the dance like nothing else. In a way, resistance means answering to a man - affecting him, telling him "I am here, and I am listening, and I do what you want - in other words - Feedback. Low resistance is better for wider, slower moves, or when you feel like flying... High resistance is great for good milonga. I would say, essential. And for old Salon Style. The less space is for dancing, the higher resistance better. Or whatever which tickles your fancy - it is an art. Do what you want, but with it. Igor Polk. Ps Resistance does not mean blocking the movement. * * * About the paradox of "teachers insist on more resistance while experienced dancers insist on low resistance" 1. Teachers teach women resistance. It is one of the cornerstone of dancing - without it - it is impossible to dance. While the experienced dancers often are tired of over-resistance of student women. These women have not mastered yet what their teachers told them. So these dancers bring them to higher level, but they do really bad job for hard-working teachers if they insist on "no resistance at all". See 2. ( Again - over-tension is not a resistance ). 2. Dancing with resistance is at least a level up of average dancing skills I observe. A lot of people, especially men, do not know much about resistance and do not know how to handle over-resistance. That is bad, and I hope it will be remedies. I will put all my efforts in helping bringing good dancing back to life. * * * Thank you for the great "Fly-By-Wire" example, Steve !!! * * * If you want to read some more about it, please, read my old article http://www.virtuar.com/tango/articles/2005/looking_mirror.htm No newer one, sorry. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
On Sep 22, 2007, at 4:15 PM, Krasimir Stoyanov wrote: > I agree with Igor, but what is resistance? > Should the follower forcefully resist? Or it is just the inertial > resistance, according to the physics? Of course, connection can mean anything from light to heavy. This could be a light to heavy force, or light to heavy inertia, or light to heavy responsiveness, light or heavy groundedness. I personally agree with Igor that super-light is less helpful for connection, and I prefer that there be an actual, sometimes substantial sense of engaging (toning up?) between the partners. I have two points to make about this: (1) The woman (man also), has three important places of engagement: with the floor, with her partner, and within herself. Using these leverage points allows her to create a positive connection that can be used to communicate movement and other things. This connection can be modified in many ways. All the great followers I know use many or all of these possibilities: - by resisting movement or self-powering, - by allowing stationary or moving momentum to slow the changes of tempo - by leaning or being more vertical, - by pushing into the floor or pushing off, - by allowing a slower response or a more sprightly response. - by slowing or speeding up the speed of the moving leg - by resisting or releasing early or late in the movement - by resisting or releasing early or late in the music - by leaving a step or arriving to a step early or late with respect to the music or lead. (2) The manner in which the woman engages with her partner IS THE FIRST AND MOST INTERESTING decoration in tango. It is one of the most significant ways for the woman to express musicality. Decorating the connection is far more interesting than the visible decorations we usually think about. Tom Stermitz Denver & San Diego Tango Festivals http://www.tango.org ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
- Original Message - From: "Tom Stermitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Tango-L" Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 2:14 AM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect Some comments: > - by resisting movement or self-powering, This will effectively destroy the dance, both resisting or self-powering are LEADING, not following. > - by allowing stationary or moving momentum to slow the changes of > tempo Slow the changes of tempo? What do you mean by that? > - by leaning or being more vertical, In a tango danced correctly, the leader determines the lean, not the follower. This follows from the walking technique, the follower cannot manage the lean without doing incorrect things with the posture. > - by pushing into the floor or pushing off, This needs clarification, every body pushes into the floor, otherwise they will fall down. What is pushing off the floor? Changes of the height above the floor are very important instrument for the leader, so it is not correct for the follower to modulate it. > - by allowing a slower response or a more sprightly response. Correct walking while following simply reacts passively to the lead, if it is slow, the reaction is slow, etc. Slowing a lead is not something good for the dance, it destroys the rithm, and should be avoided, unless there is a serious reason. Sharping a slow, smooth lead is a disaster in most cases. > - by slowing or speeding up the speed of the moving leg I agree with this, but must be done very carefully. In fact, this is the only instrument for a follower to use freely - the moving leg. But still, it requires a lot of experience for it to work in a good manner. > - by resisting or releasing early or late in the movement This would be very bad thing unless the skill level is unbelievably high. And as we all do not posses such skills, it is not for us. > - by resisting or releasing early or late in the music Could you elaborate? > - by leaving a step or arriving to a step early or late with > respect to the music or lead. Possibly, but again - it is a high level skill. Usually this is simply bad follow. > (2) The manner in which the woman engages with her partner IS THE > FIRST AND MOST INTERESTING > decoration in tango. It is one of the most significant ways for the > woman to express musicality. Decorating the connection is far more > interesting than the visible decorations we usually think about. Interesting, could you tell us more about this idea? ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
My main point is that the follower's musicality is expressed to a great degree by the quality and changes she puts into the connection. By changing her connection and choosing her movements she decorates time, space and movement. I guess she is also decorating his thoughts Sometimes he notices. This creates extraordinarily luscious dances. A "perfect" follower who does everything I lead but doesn't use this quality of connection, is boring, like she doesn't have a personality or a voice. On Sep 23, 2007, at 12:33 AM, Krasimir Stoyanov wrote: > - Original Message - > From: "Tom Stermitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Tango-L" > Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 2:14 AM > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect > > > Some comments: > >> - by resisting movement or self-powering, > > This will effectively destroy the dance, both resisting or self- > powering are > LEADING, not following. Apparently you have never experienced this. Have you ever danced with a good Argentine follower. Have you ever danced with a really good follower who absolutely knows the music? There is a a quality of leading in the followers role, just as there is a certain amount of follow in the lead. >> - by allowing stationary or moving momentum to slow the changes of >> tempo > > Slow the changes of tempo? What do you mean by that? A body at rest has stationary momentum. In order to start moving, it needs a force (Newtonian Physics). The question is how fast or slowly this occurs. Maybe there is more force applied in a short time, or force is resisted/delayed in order to slow the movement. >> - by leaning or being more vertical, > > In a tango danced correctly, the leader determines the lean, not the > follower. This follows from the walking technique, the follower cannot > manage the lean without doing incorrect things with the posture. Both parties can determine the lean. Personallly, I don't like the big lean, but it is always an option. >> - by pushing into the floor or pushing off, > > This needs clarification, every body pushes into the floor, > otherwise they > will fall down. What is pushing off the floor? Changes of the > height above > the floor are very important instrument for the leader, so it is > not correct > for the follower to modulate it. When a follower changes weight, she presses the ball of her foot into the earth, settles into her hips and engages. It is nice when her connection also engages with the leader. At the beginning of a step the leader has more pushing-off ability than she has resistance, so her resistance is more futile (so to speak). Still, she can resist or go easily. On the other hand, when the follower arrives to the next step the leader is at the end of his stride, so if she engages strongly with the floor she can slow him down. Although this is an option, personally, I find it to be heavy. >> - by allowing a slower response or a more sprightly response. > > Correct walking while following simply reacts passively to the > lead, if it > is slow, the reaction is slow, etc. > Slowing a lead is not something good for the dance, it destroys the > rithm, > and should be avoided, unless there is a serious reason. > Sharping a slow, smooth lead is a disaster in most cases. Absolutely untrue. Passive reaction is extraordinarily boring. I do feel a large part of the musicality comes from the leader who is proposing the steps. But, the follower does need to contribute. >> - by slowing or speeding up the speed of the moving leg > > I agree with this, but must be done very carefully. > > In fact, this is the only instrument for a follower to use freely - > the > moving leg. But still, it requires a lot of experience for it to > work in a > good manner. To arrive at intermediate, a follower needs to learn how to follow the steps in the basic sense. This issue of slowing or smoothing the free is easily learned at this point, and is one of the essential quality-of-movement requirements for her to ACHIEVE intermediate. >> - by resisting or releasing early or late in the movement > > This would be very bad thing unless the skill level is unbelievably > high. > And as we all do not posses such skills, it is not for us. I'm not talking about beginners. I'm talking about the transition from intermediate to advanced. >> - by resisting or releasing early or late in the music > > Could you elaborate? She can speed up the first half of the stride or the second half. This can be with respect to the music or with respect to the leader's movement. She can rush her weight change, or she can hold back to the "T" of the BE
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
Exactly. This is the difference between following and dancing. At 09:27 AM 9/23/2007, Tom Stermitz wrote: >My main point is that the follower's musicality is expressed to a >great degree by the quality and changes she puts into the connection. >By changing her connection and choosing her movements she decorates >time, space and movement. I guess she is also decorating his >thoughts Sometimes he notices. > >This creates extraordinarily luscious dances. A "perfect" follower >who does everything I lead but doesn't use this quality of >connection, is boring, like she doesn't have a personality or a voice. > >On Sep 23, 2007, at 12:33 AM, Krasimir Stoyanov wrote: > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Tom Stermitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Tango-L" > > Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 2:14 AM > > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect > > > > > > Some comments: > > > >> - by resisting movement or self-powering, > > > > This will effectively destroy the dance, both resisting or self- > > powering are > > LEADING, not following. > >Apparently you have never experienced this. Have you ever danced with >a good Argentine follower. Have you ever danced with a really good >follower who absolutely knows the music? There is a a quality of >leading in the followers role, just as there is a certain amount of >follow in the lead. > > >> - by allowing stationary or moving momentum to slow the changes of > >> tempo > > > > Slow the changes of tempo? What do you mean by that? > >A body at rest has stationary momentum. In order to start moving, it >needs a force (Newtonian Physics). The question is how fast or slowly >this occurs. Maybe there is more force applied in a short time, or >force is resisted/delayed in order to slow the movement. > > >> - by leaning or being more vertical, > > > > In a tango danced correctly, the leader determines the lean, not the > > follower. This follows from the walking technique, the follower cannot > > manage the lean without doing incorrect things with the posture. > >Both parties can determine the lean. Personallly, I don't like the >big lean, but it is always an option. > > > >> - by pushing into the floor or pushing off, > > > > This needs clarification, every body pushes into the floor, > > otherwise they > > will fall down. What is pushing off the floor? Changes of the > > height above > > the floor are very important instrument for the leader, so it is > > not correct > > for the follower to modulate it. > >When a follower changes weight, she presses the ball of her foot into >the earth, settles into her hips and engages. It is nice when her >connection also engages with the leader. At the beginning of a step >the leader has more pushing-off ability than she has resistance, so >her resistance is more futile (so to speak). Still, she can resist or >go easily. On the other hand, when the follower arrives to the next >step the leader is at the end of his stride, so if she engages >strongly with the floor she can slow him down. Although this is an >option, personally, I find it to be heavy. > > >> - by allowing a slower response or a more sprightly response. > > > > Correct walking while following simply reacts passively to the > > lead, if it > > is slow, the reaction is slow, etc. > > Slowing a lead is not something good for the dance, it destroys the > > rithm, > > and should be avoided, unless there is a serious reason. > > Sharping a slow, smooth lead is a disaster in most cases. > >Absolutely untrue. Passive reaction is extraordinarily boring. > >I do feel a large part of the musicality comes from the leader who is >proposing the steps. But, the follower does need to contribute. > > > >> - by slowing or speeding up the speed of the moving leg > > > > I agree with this, but must be done very carefully. > > > > In fact, this is the only instrument for a follower to use freely - > > the > > moving leg. But still, it requires a lot of experience for it to > > work in a > > good manner. > >To arrive at intermediate, a follower needs to learn how to follow >the steps in the basic sense. This issue of slowing or smoothing the >free is easily learned at this point, and is one of the essential >quality-of-movement requirements for her to ACHIEVE intermediate. > > >> - by resisting or releasing early or late in the movement > > > > This would be very bad thing unless the skill level is unbelieva
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
Krasimir proposed: > it may feel like resistance, but it's mainly inertial It cannot be mainly inertial, because that make the result very asymmetric w.r.t. to motion towards her v. motion away. And that's not what we feel. > , and this helps keeping the good connection necessary. What does that is her active embracing - the staying put relative to me. She's maintaining the homeostasis. -- Chris ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
- Original Message - From: "Chris, UK" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Krasimir proposed: > >> it may feel like resistance, but it's mainly inertial > > It cannot be mainly inertial, because that make the result very asymmetric > w.r.t. to motion towards her v. motion away. And that's not what we feel. If you have a physical body not moving, and apply a force to make it move, the force it is giving you back (like resisting movement), is inertial - it is the same thing as when you try to stop a moving body. > >> , and this helps keeping the good connection necessary. > > What does that is her active embracing - the staying put relative to me. > She's maintaining the homeostasis. What is active embracing - first time I hear such a thing? ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
> (1) The woman (man also), has three important places of engagement: > with the floor, with her partner, and within herself. Using these > leverage points ... I'd like to hear how 'within herself' is a leverage point. > - by allowing stationary or moving momentum Tom, there is no such thing as stationary momentum. > - by pushing into the floor or pushing off, They are not alternatives. They are cause and effect. > The manner in which the woman engages with her partner IS THE > FIRST AND MOST INTERESTING decoration in tango. That diminishes it. It is more fundamental than a decoration. For one thing, it is non-elective. -- Chris ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
> If you have a physical body not moving, and apply a force to make it > move, the force it is giving you back (like resisting movement), is > inertial Agreed. > - it is the same thing as when you try to stop a moving body. ( Actually no - that's momentum. But terminology aside...) .. my point is that it cannot be this passive effect of mass that 'helps keeping the good connection.' because in a guy-forward move it works to bring them together, but in a guy-backward move it works to take them apart. Whereas what we feel from a good connection is that it keeps us together in both directions. Hence the cause must be more active than mere inertia/momentum. -- Chris ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
- Original Message - From: "Chris, UK" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > .. my point is that it cannot be this passive effect of mass that 'helps > keeping the good connection.' because in a guy-forward move it works to > bring them together, but in a guy-backward move it works to take them > apart. > > Whereas what we feel from a good connection is that it keeps us together > in both directions. Hence the cause must be more active than mere > inertia/momentum. Yes, there must be something else - if you (the leader) make a sharp step back, the connection would break, provided you do not hold her. The leaning can help, but only to a certain limit. So much for not having to pull the lady. Of course, like everything else in tango it is not some ugly pulling, it is actually a more complicated and precisely executed movement, but still, if you don't hold her, the connection will break, or become loose at least. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
On Sep 23, 2007, at 4:31 PM, Chris, UK wrote: >> (1) The woman (man also), has three important places of engagement: >> with the floor, with her partner, and within herself. Using these >> leverage points ... > > I'd like to hear how 'within herself' is a leverage point. Think about it. Martial arts, yoga, pilates, all structural movements require good core support. The dantien... "three finger widths below and two finger widths behind the navel." >> - by allowing stationary or moving momentum > > Tom, there is no such thing as stationary momentum. Newtonian Physics. Of course! Momentum can be moving or stationary. Force is required to initiate movement or to slow it down. > -- > Chris ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
Krasimir wrote: > if you (the leader) make a sharp step back, the connection would break, > provided you do not hold her... So much for not having to pull the lady. You do not have to pull the lady... and you have to /not/ pull the lady. Pulling wrecks her forward step. Instead of a nice continuously connected forward motion, she's instead forced into a kind of stumble to regain her balance. It doesn't feel good for her or you. > ... still, if you don't hold her, the connection will break, > or become loose at least. Not at all. She needs only to keep herself close at your chest. You don't need to hold her or use your arms at all. When the two are stationary in the embrace, she's constantly giving you forward energy that's held in check by yours. The cancellation of equal and opposite (tiny) forces. You make the back step by releasing that check, so it's her energy that carries her forward, and drives you back, both in perfect balance. To make the arrival, you restore your energy, bringing her back to check. This is the same as in the forward step, except with energies reversed. A good demo of this is simple slow smooth alternation of forward and back steps. Try doing this by switching between push and pull, the outcome is a shambles. Try it by using that checked energy, and you can feel the polarity swing continuously back and forth. The result is immeasurably better. And has very little sense of 'leading' and 'following', note. Often hereabouts it's suggested that a student should try both roles to get an appreciation of how different they are. The better reason I think to try both roles is to get an appreciation of how similar they are. -- Chris ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
But, I said SHARP step. No ammount of constant pressure, or leaning, or whatever you wish, will provide the energy needed for a sharp step back. You have to provide that energy - and your hand is essential here - try it without hands - not possible at all. And I pointed out that it is not simple pulling, but pulling is included in a more complex movement (lead), but you ignored it. For example, you have to give some vertical support for the lady, to help her during the time when her leg hasn't yet catched up. - Original Message - From: "Chris, UK" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 5:48 AM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect > Krasimir wrote: > >> if you (the leader) make a sharp step back, the connection would break, >> provided you do not hold her... So much for not having to pull the lady. > > You do not have to pull the lady... and you have to /not/ pull the lady. > > Pulling wrecks her forward step. Instead of a nice continuously connected > forward motion, she's instead forced into a kind of stumble to regain her > balance. It doesn't feel good for her or you. > >> ... still, if you don't hold her, the connection will break, >> or become loose at least. > > Not at all. She needs only to keep herself close at your chest. You don't > need to hold her or use your arms at all. > > When the two are stationary in the embrace, she's constantly giving you > forward energy that's held in check by yours. The cancellation of equal > and opposite (tiny) forces. You make the back step by releasing that > check, so it's her energy that carries her forward, and drives you back, > both in perfect balance. To make the arrival, you restore your energy, > bringing her back to check. > > This is the same as in the forward step, except with energies reversed. A > good demo of this is simple slow smooth alternation of forward and back > steps. Try doing this by switching between push and pull, the outcome is a > shambles. Try it by using that checked energy, and you can feel the > polarity swing continuously back and forth. The result is immeasurably > better. And has very little sense of 'leading' and 'following', note. > > Often hereabouts it's suggested that a student should try both roles to > get an appreciation of how different they are. The better reason I think > to try both roles is to get an appreciation of how similar they are. > > -- > Chris > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
Doesn't sound like a good thing to me. I don't think my partners would like that. Keith, HK On Mon Sep 24 13:36 , "Krasimir Stoyanov" sent: >But, I said SHARP step. No ammount of constant pressure, or leaning, or >whatever you wish, will provide the energy needed for a sharp step back. You >have to provide that energy - and your hand is essential here - try it >without hands - not possible at all. > >And I pointed out that it is not simple pulling, but pulling is included in >a more complex movement (lead), but you ignored it. For example, you have to >give some vertical support for the lady, to help her during the time when >her leg hasn't yet catched up. > > >- Original Message - >From: "Chris, UK" [EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: Tango-L@mit.edu> >Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 5:48 AM >Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect > > >> Krasimir wrote: >> >>> if you (the leader) make a sharp step back, the connection would break, >>> provided you do not hold her... So much for not having to pull the lady. >> >> You do not have to pull the lady... and you have to /not/ pull the lady. >> >> Pulling wrecks her forward step. Instead of a nice continuously connected >> forward motion, she's instead forced into a kind of stumble to regain her >> balance. It doesn't feel good for her or you. >> >>> ... still, if you don't hold her, the connection will break, >>> or become loose at least. >> >> Not at all. She needs only to keep herself close at your chest. You don't >> need to hold her or use your arms at all. >> >> When the two are stationary in the embrace, she's constantly giving you >> forward energy that's held in check by yours. The cancellation of equal >> and opposite (tiny) forces. You make the back step by releasing that >> check, so it's her energy that carries her forward, and drives you back, >> both in perfect balance. To make the arrival, you restore your energy, >> bringing her back to check. >> >> This is the same as in the forward step, except with energies reversed. A >> good demo of this is simple slow smooth alternation of forward and back >> steps. Try doing this by switching between push and pull, the outcome is a >> shambles. Try it by using that checked energy, and you can feel the >> polarity swing continuously back and forth. The result is immeasurably >> better. And has very little sense of 'leading' and 'following', note. >> >> Often hereabouts it's suggested that a student should try both roles to >> get an appreciation of how different they are. The better reason I think >> to try both roles is to get an appreciation of how similar they are. >> >> -- >> Chris >> ___ >> Tango-L mailing list >> Tango-L@mit.edu >> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > >___ >Tango-L mailing list >Tango-L@mit.edu >http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
- Original Message - From: "Keith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Doesn't sound like a good thing to me. I don't think my partners would > like > that. > > Keith, HK Ok, then explain how you do it, how you do a sharp back step, say in half-time, no choreography. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
"if you (the leader) make a sharp step back, the connection would break, the connection would break, provided you do not hold her" Thus, we hope that the women learn to feel us moving backwards, and know that we expect them to step forward as vigorously as we step forward. Krasimir Stoyanov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: - Original Message - From: "Chris, UK" > .. my point is that it cannot be this passive effect of mass that 'helps > keeping the good connection.' because in a guy-forward move it works to > bring them together, but in a guy-backward move it works to take them > apart. > > Whereas what we feel from a good connection is that it keeps us together > in both directions. Hence the cause must be more active than mere > inertia/momentum. Yes, there must be something else - if you (the leader) make a sharp step back, the connection would break, provided you do not hold her. The leaning can help, but only to a certain limit. So much for not having to pull the lady. Of course, like everything else in tango it is not some ugly pulling, it is actually a more complicated and precisely executed movement, but still, if you don't hold her, the connection will break, or become loose at least. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l - Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
If you feel that your connection with your partner is being broken by this SHARP backward movement, it would be wise to abort the movement. If your partner hasn't been giving you good forward energy, and hasn't already followed your backward movement previously, it would be wise to not even consider a SHARP backward movement in the first place. And, of course, you already know there is no one back there, right? Krasimir Stoyanov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: - Original Message - From: "Keith" > Doesn't sound like a good thing to me. I don't think my partners would > like > that. > > Keith, HK Ok, then explain how you do it, how you do a sharp back step, say in half-time, no choreography. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l - Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
giggle ! Now this is like the tango-l as we all used to know it... Astrid Steve Pastor wrote: > If you feel that your connection with your partner is being broken by this > SHARP backward movement, it would be wise to abort the movement. > If your partner hasn't been giving you good forward energy, and hasn't > already followed your backward movement previously, it would be > wise to not even consider a SHARP backward movement in the first > place. > And, of course, you already know there is no one back there, right? > > Krasimir Stoyanov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > - Original Message - > From: "Keith" >> Doesn't sound like a good thing to me. I don't think my partners would >> like >> that. >> >> Keith, HK > > Ok, then explain how you do it, how you do a sharp back step, say in > half-time, no choreography. > > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > > > > - > Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. > Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
Krasimir wrote: > And I pointed out that it is not simple pulling, but pulling is > included in a more complex movement (lead), but you ignored it. I didn't ignore it. Just that I think including pulling in /any/ "more complicated and precisely executed movement" does not mitigate it. > You have to provide that energy - and your hand is essential here When a guy finds pushing or pulling with his hands is essential to a certain move, that's tango's way of telling him to give that move a miss. Igor wrote: > I can not remember a moment when I transferred my weight backward in > double time sharply from the vertical position How about when last a leader shoved you in the back, just before you said "Thank you" and left the floor? ;) -- Chris ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
Did I say I do it? But I still think it would be (and should be) possible. - Original Message - From: "steve pastor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Krasimir Stoyanov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 6:56 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect > If you feel that your connection with your partner is being broken by this > SHARP backward movement, it would be wise to abort the movement. > If your partner hasn't been giving you good forward energy, and hasn't > already followed your backward movement previously, it would be > wise to not even consider a SHARP backward movement in the first > place. > And, of course, you already know there is no one back there, right? > > Krasimir Stoyanov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > - Original Message - > From: "Keith" >> Doesn't sound like a good thing to me. I don't think my partners would >> like >> that. >> >> Keith, HK > > Ok, then explain how you do it, how you do a sharp back step, say in > half-time, no choreography. > > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > > > > - > Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. > Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
Every one that denies the need for a pull, must try leading without the right hand - then we'll talk again. And I don't mean pulling with a hand . . .I mean the slight pull to keep the points of contact engaged in some situations, when the inertia tries to separate the partners, but you people are so quick in underestimating others. - Original Message - From: "Chris, UK" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 9:33 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect > Krasimir wrote: >> And I pointed out that it is not simple pulling, but pulling is >> included in a more complex movement (lead), but you ignored it. > > I didn't ignore it. Just that I think including pulling in /any/ "more > complicated and precisely executed movement" does not mitigate it. > >> You have to provide that energy - and your hand is essential here > > When a guy finds pushing or pulling with his hands is essential to a > certain move, that's tango's way of telling him to give that move a miss. > > Igor wrote: >> I can not remember a moment when I transferred my weight backward in >> double time sharply from the vertical position > > How about when last a leader shoved you in the back, just before you said > "Thank you" and left the floor? ;) > > -- > Chris > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 19:33 +0100 (BST), Chris, UK <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Krasimir wrote: > > You have to provide that energy - and your hand is essential here > > When a guy finds pushing or pulling with his hands is essential to a > certain move, that's tango's way of telling him to give that move a miss. It occurs to me that some if not most of the disagreement above might be coming from a simple misunderstanding. I think that when Krassimir says "hands" above he generally means "arms". In English (and in this context) these two concepts seem more separated through labels than in Bulgarian, hence the likely source of error. I've occasionally made this substitution error as well. Just a thought. With best regards, Konstantin Victoria, Canada ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
This is only my opinion and I don't presume to correct anyone. I think that the word "resistance" can be used to mean different things in tango. For instance, it's common to find among new women dancers a tendency to collapse the point of contact upon receiving a lead from the man instead of taking the intended step. She leaves her body pretty much where it started at the beginning of the lead. Sometimes if the lead is large enough, (as when the leader displaces his body enough distance) the collapsing woman will actually lose her balance rather than move. In cases like this, one uses the word "resistance" for lack of a better term to explain to the woman that the lead is actually a movement transmitted to to feet via the points of contact. Actually, what one is looking for is a connection between the leader's body and the followers body which will result in the woman actually moving through space in response to the leaders signal. Having said all that, I will say that for me, resistance is not at all a desirable quality in a woman dancing tango. There are at least 2 women I know who teach actual resistance to leading. These tactics include actually frustrating the man's intention by either not moving or moving in a manner not anticipated by the man's intention. To each his or her own, but for me this is not very good and not much fun. When dancing with these women, the dance becomes a kind of struggle, almost a competitive game of some sort. I prefer the tango to be danced by a leader and a follower rather than 2 leaders trying to out maneuver each other. I guess it can be fun sometimes, but in general that is not for me. I rather dance as a follower and let another do the leading than compete for the lead. As for too strong or too weak a lead, I also think that these terms can be used to mean different things. For instance, a tentative or unsure lead by a man could be construed as weak. A premature movement by the man before the woman responds to the lead could be described as too strong. For me these cases are the result of timing problems rather than excessive or insufficient force. Of course, manhandling a woman is totally undesirable and can be described as too strong. Sometimes there is a lack of connection between the man and the woman. Other times, neither of them has learned the skill to do whatever they are trying to do and the woman feels "over led" and the man thinks that she just does not follow. This happens more often during workshops while the couple is trying to perform the figures taught by the the "master du jour". I've found myself sometimes using too much force or using hands and arms to "steer" a woman through steps in a dance. I don't like it (nor do the women) and I wondered what happened and why. It is frustrating to find one's self in these situations and I decided to try some experiments. When the woman complains about over leading of too strong a lead, I tried very consciously to lead as clearly and gently as possible, and to lead her in movements that I'm very familiar with and are rather common and simple. Well, to my surprise, I've found that in some of these cases, the woman does not perform the step I led and intended her to do. Obviously, since these leads have worked very well thousands of times, I deduced that my over leading was an effort to lead her to do something she could not do or would not do for whatever reason. In that case it's just a mismatch, a "mala junta". I've had the good fortune to dance with many women who are wonderful dancers. For me a good follower responds to my leads in an effortless and smooth manner. There is no resistance at all. Every lead is followed without the need of pushing or pulling. It's very easy to keep one's balance and the dance is wonderfully fluid, divine. I particularly enjoy dancing with women who seem to intuit the lead, specially in turns... I'm very aware that in tango the man indicates the direction and motion of the woman, but then he actually follows her in a millisecond. The leader is always following the woman and proposing the next step, etc. If the man is tentative and does not follow the woman, or worse yet, he goes before she does, the dance is pretty awful. Likewise, if the woman actively or unconsciously resists the leads, the dance is not so much fun. For me the dance is a "real time" event. If the woman doers not follow, the timing of the dance is compromised. For me this is most important because I love to dance rhythmically and I love to follow the music. Cheers, Manuel visit our webpage ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
Krassimire, This is a good point. An excellent exercise for intermediate dancers is for the man to dance with his right arm behind his back. The lady still has her full embrace. Many men think they are not using their right arm to lead, but take it away and they can't dance. It's really quite funny when people first try it. It's also an excellent exercise for the lady. Suddenly she has to take more responsibility for maintaining the connection and, often for the first time, she realises that she has an equal responsibility for maintaining the all-important connection. This is just an exercise. When I dance, I love to embrace the lady and make her feel safe and secure. Keith, HK On Tue Sep 25 5:00 , "Krassimire Stoyanov" sent: >Every one that denies the need for a pull, must try leading without the >right hand - then we'll talk again. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
> > Tom, there is no such thing as stationary momentum. > > Newtonian Physics. Stermitzian Physics, perhaps. ;) > Momentum can be moving or stationary. Not in Newton's. Momentum is something only moving objects have. What stationary objects (and arguably moving objects too) have is inertia. Regardless, it's good to see teachers are increasingly accepting that trying to communicate these feel-things to students in scientific words obfuscates more than enlightens. The best communicate it directly, in dance. -- Chris PS Here's a great music video: Osvaldo Pugliese live at Teatro Colon, playing Chique http://youtube.com/watch?v=ti-IC38M7x8 Original Message -------- *Subject:* Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect *From:* Tom Stermitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> *To:* Tango-L *Date:* Sat, 22 Sep 2007 17:14:23 -0600 On Sep 22, 2007, at 4:15 PM, Krasimir Stoyanov wrote: > I agree with Igor, but what is resistance? > Should the follower forcefully resist? Or it is just the inertial > resistance, according to the physics? Of course, connection can mean anything from light to heavy. This could be a light to heavy force, or light to heavy inertia, or light to heavy responsiveness, light or heavy groundedness. I personally agree with Igor that super-light is less helpful for connection, and I prefer that there be an actual, sometimes substantial sense of engaging (toning up?) between the partners. I have two points to make about this: (1) The woman (man also), has three important places of engagement: with the floor, with her partner, and within herself. Using these leverage points allows her to create a positive connection that can be used to communicate movement and other things. This connection can be modified in many ways. All the great followers I know use many or all of these possibilities: - by resisting movement or self-powering, - by allowing stationary or moving momentum to slow the changes of tempo - by leaning or being more vertical, - by pushing into the floor or pushing off, - by allowing a slower response or a more sprightly response. - by slowing or speeding up the speed of the moving leg - by resisting or releasing early or late in the movement - by resisting or releasing early or late in the music - by leaving a step or arriving to a step early or late with respect to the music or lead. (2) The manner in which the woman engages with her partner IS THE FIRST AND MOST INTERESTING decoration in tango. It is one of the most significant ways for the woman to express musicality. Decorating the connection is far more interesting than the visible decorations we usually think about. Tom Stermitz Denver & San Diego Tango Festivals http://www.tango.org ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
I love the "lets dance without any arms" challenge. Sometimes, when someone has "offered a comment" on my lead, I will ask them if they would like to try dancing without the arms. Often, they decline. (This is (of course) at a practica.) Krassimire Stoyanov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Every one that denies the need for a pull, must try leading without the right hand - then we'll talk again. And I don't mean pulling with a hand . . .I mean the slight pull to keep the points of contact engaged in some situations, when the inertia tries to separate the partners, but you people are so quick in underestimating others. - Original Message - From: "Chris, UK" To: Cc: Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 9:33 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect > Krasimir wrote: >> And I pointed out that it is not simple pulling, but pulling is >> included in a more complex movement (lead), but you ignored it. > > I didn't ignore it. Just that I think including pulling in /any/ "more > complicated and precisely executed movement" does not mitigate it. > >> You have to provide that energy - and your hand is essential here > > When a guy finds pushing or pulling with his hands is essential to a > certain move, that's tango's way of telling him to give that move a miss. > > Igor wrote: >> I can not remember a moment when I transferred my weight backward in >> double time sharply from the vertical position > > How about when last a leader shoved you in the back, just before you said > "Thank you" and left the floor? ;) > > -- > Chris > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l - Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
Yes, this is a real test for both the leader and follower's abilities. Especially whether they know what dissociation is. - Original Message - From: "steve pastor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect >I love the "lets dance without any arms" challenge. > Sometimes, when someone has "offered a comment" on my lead, > I will ask them if they would like to try dancing without the arms. > Often, they decline. (This is (of course) at a practica.) ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
"Chris, UK" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: [...] > Not in Newton's. Momentum is something only moving objects have. What > stationary objects (and arguably moving objects too) have is inertia. A stationary object surely has a momentum of zero? And yes, surely moving objects have inertia: The vis insita, or innate force of matter is a power of resisting, by which every body as much as in it lies, continues in its present state, whether it be of rest, or of moving uniformly forwards in a right line. [copy and paste from Wikipedia] > Regardless, it's good to see teachers are increasingly accepting > that trying to communicate these feel-things to students in > scientific words obfuscates more than enlightens. Can do, yes. Similarly using musical terms can obfuscate. I think the (difficult) trick in either case is to use the terms accurately, or at least to know when you're intending to use them metaphorically and to somehow make that clear. > The best communicate it directly, in dance. I've found some explanations to be valuable, too. I suspect the best way to teach is to use a variety of approaches. I agree that a variety which doesn't include actual dancing probably isn't going to work, and just dancing is probably quite sufficient most of the time. And I've certainly been at some classes where it seemed to me that the teacher was trying to use a variety of ways of describing something, but actually the variety was very limited (just using slightly different words) or incorrect, or both. And sometimes teachers attempt to use physics or music, but get it sufficiently wrong that I'm more confused than if they hadn't tried. [...] ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
I think there is a tendency in looking at an exercise where the man doesn't use his right arm (or both arms) in the embrace as being an exercise in leading. It is also an exercise in following. Steve ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
On Mon, Sep 24, 2007 at 11:36:00PM -0400, WHITE 95 R wrote: > > This is only my opinion and I don't presume to correct anyone. I think > that the word "resistance" can be used to mean different things in > tango. For instance, it's common to find among new women dancers a > tendency to collapse the point of contact upon receiving a lead from > the man instead of taking the intended step. She leaves her body pretty > much where it started at the beginning of the lead For those with a physics bent, I have been considering the physics of tango for a while now. I would say the following about the lead-follow. You can imagine the system of two dancers as a two particle interaction with a force similar to the one between two atoms. The leader moves towards the follower, and initially the follower does nothing, but as the gap closes, she rapidly accelerates to match the leader. Or alternatively, with a back step as the gap opens, initially she does nothing but then rapidly accelerates to match again. However, this is not mediated by actual forces transmitted through the arms or the chest, but rather by an awareness that the follower needs to have. The result should be a slightly oscillatory motion which has a frequency closely related to the frequency of the musical beats. Similarly, with a boleo or other torsional movement, the follower and leader must wind up like a spring, the torso and legs out of sync. A super stiff follower will turn like a pencil, whereas a relaxed follower will stay behind too much. In order to keep the tempo, the implied stiffness of the system must produce a natural frequency of oscillation similar to the tempo of the music (or perhaps a harmonic multiple of). According to the tempo of the music, the interaction must appear to be more stiff for quick movements, and less stiff for slow movements, so that the tempo of the music and the frequency of the oscillations in the interaction of the two bodies are related. However, I must stress, it is not solely via the transmission of actual forces between the arms or the chest that this stiffness or looseness is mediated. The bodies act 'as if' a force is acting between them, but not because the leader is applying a physical force to the follower. -- Daniel Lakeland [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.street-artists.org/~dlakelan ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
- Original Message - From: "Daniel Lakeland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 11:20 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect > The bodies act 'as if' a force is acting > between them, but not because the leader is applying a physical force > to the follower. REALLY? Isn't there a simpler explanation? That the bodies DO experience a force in-between? Why so many people are afraid of the simple truth - there is a force (forces), no matter the style or the embrace - that's why is practically impossible to dance tango without contact - being a contact dance, it implies a connection - a mechanical connection. And a connection is needed to transfer forces. And all the good dancers transmit the actual energy for the step, not just some information carrying force signals. Otherwise, it would be impossible to stay in sync and in common balance - even in slow tempo. The really working quick and presize path for the lead is: Leader's mind > Leader's body ( > strong signal via good connection > ) Follower's body. There is an important extention:: Leader's mind > Leader's body > Follower's body.> Follower's leg (with the cooperation of Follower's mind). The follower responds with stretching the leg, but is already receiving (directly through the chest/embrace) the energy for it and for the movement (the step) afterwards. Thus there is no delay, the movement starts immediately, just the leg is a bit slow. And there is no deciding, because the rule is to stretch the leg completely - nothing to think about. Observe that the bodies are united through the connection. They don't need to act as one, simply because they are already one. The other "solution" is the so called active following: Leader's mind > Leader's body ( > weak signal here > ) Follower's body > Follower's mind > Follower's body and leg. The bodies are not united - no strong connection. And, as the goal is to act as one - the follower desperately tries to do it. But . . . Look at the part, when the follower must sense the intention (via weak signal) in miliseconds, calculate the precise movement is milliseconds, and execute in milliseconds. It sounds almost impossible - and it is. Some couples that have danced together for years, may be able to use active following - simply because the follower knows the leader so well, that there is sixth sence between them. But still, this is not what tango is about. You can measure your reaction here: http://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/index.php In pressing a simple button, the delay is about 200ms (my best result was 180, but I had some 300ms from time to time). And this is for very simple reaction - not decision making. The follower must decide the size, the speed and the direction of the step. Although a trained mind may be quick in this - relying on the weak signal (mark) to lead and follow will be a disaster when the leader is not well known. The delay would be about half a second, and the reaction not so correct. Even if the leader is known, the moment he decides to do something new, all will go wrong. To me, this is not the way tango should be danced. And noone actually dances this way - but strangely, many people promote it with their words. So leaders, try it on yourself. Find someone to lead you (in real tempo, freely improvising) - first try to be active followers (connect very loosely), you will see upon yourself how difficult and stressful is to follow this way. Then, if you are lucky to have a qualified leader that knows the Tango, try to just let him induce the step to your body directly - you just cooperate with the free leg only, don't try to help in the movement, and don't do over-balancing - and see the difference. For me, a leader would NEVER be a good one without some experience as follower. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
On Wed, Sep 26, 2007 at 01:11:42AM +0300, Krasimir Stoyanov wrote: > - Original Message - > From: "Daniel Lakeland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 11:20 PM > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect > > > > > The bodies act 'as if' a force is acting > > between them, but not because the leader is applying a physical force > > to the follower. > > REALLY? Isn't there a simpler explanation? That the bodies DO experience a > force in-between? No, for two reasons. First, I and others frequently dance with partners using no physical connection, to practice both follow and lead, and second, the forces required to synchronize two bodies moving in the way that tango dancers do would be very strong and unpleasant when applied across the arms of the embrace. Definitely, tango dancers in an embrace transmit forces between the two bodies, but these forces are signalling, not the principle forces required to synchronize the bodies. For example: A 70 kg rigid sack of potatoes on ice (a model for a follower being forced around) is accelerated from rest to .5 m/s in an interval of .5 seconds and then back to rest in another .5 seconds. The impulse in each interaction is 35 N-s and the average force is 70 N. The peak force must be more than the average force. Perhaps 1.5 times as much is a reasonable guess. So are you first pushing your partner with 105 N of force and then pulling her back to stop her? This is about 25 lbs. Try dead-lifting a 25 lb (~ 100N or 11kg of mass) weight and then come back and tell me if you're applying that much force to your follower. I suggest the answer lies in between that and zero. Perhaps 5 lbs of force on average, with the follower supplying the rest of the lateral forces required using her legs (surely we must acknowledge the keen importance of the followers legs!) Yes, forces are transmitted, and occasionally during vigorous turns and soforth they may approach my example of 100 N or 25 lbs, but on average they are much below this. -- Daniel Lakeland [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.street-artists.org/~dlakelan ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect
So you think 100N (11kg) is too much force for a 70kg follower? I don't think so..And you calculation is imprecise. Because there is something like bouncing in each step. Yes, another thing that is taught wrong. Every step begins with a fall, then bouncing from the floor, then finishing up (climbing up). It is not done with legs that are straight all the time, so it is not too visible, but it is there. That's why the follower's and leader's mass help both in acceleration and in deceleration. So the force is minimal, it is just enough to cause 'the fall", then the two fall and climb, fall and climb, and so on. So beautiful. So tango. That's the physics behind the words: "The leader shows intention, the follower leads, the leader follows". In the terms above, the leader causes the fall, the follower accepts (without resistance) and falls, and the leader (simultaneously - they are connected) follows by falling with. People that can see, see it. Try yourself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3e_Rbts5Q9Q http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oc1x6iNiMI Whatever, if you don't agree, it must be because you are not ready to. Someday you will understand. Meanwhile, read the "book" here: www.tangoandchaos.org - Original Message - From: "Daniel Lakeland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 2:02 AM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect > On Wed, Sep 26, 2007 at 01:11:42AM +0300, Krasimir Stoyanov wrote: >> - Original Message - >> From: "Daniel Lakeland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 11:20 PM >> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Strong Lead - resistance effect >> >> >> >> > The bodies act 'as if' a force is acting >> > between them, but not because the leader is applying a physical force >> > to the follower. >> >> REALLY? Isn't there a simpler explanation? That the bodies DO experience >> a >> force in-between? > > No, for two reasons. First, I and others frequently dance with > partners using no physical connection, to practice both follow and > lead, and second, the forces required to synchronize two bodies moving > in the way that tango dancers do would be very strong and unpleasant > when applied across the arms of the embrace. > > Definitely, tango dancers in an embrace transmit forces between the > two bodies, but these forces are signalling, not the principle forces > required to synchronize the bodies. > > For example: > > A 70 kg rigid sack of potatoes on ice (a model for a follower being > forced around) is accelerated from rest to .5 m/s in an interval of .5 > seconds and then back to rest in another .5 seconds. The impulse in > each interaction is 35 N-s and the average force is 70 N. The peak > force must be more than the average force. Perhaps 1.5 times as much > is a reasonable guess. So are you first pushing your partner with 105 > N of force and then pulling her back to stop her? This is about 25 > lbs. Try dead-lifting a 25 lb (~ 100N or 11kg of mass) weight and then > come back and tell me if you're applying that much force to your > follower. > > I suggest the answer lies in between that and zero. Perhaps 5 lbs of > force on average, with the follower supplying the rest of the lateral > forces required using her legs (surely we must acknowledge the keen > importance of the followers legs!) > > Yes, forces are transmitted, and occasionally during vigorous turns > and soforth they may approach my example of 100 N or 25 lbs, but on > average they are much below this. > > > -- > Daniel Lakeland > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.street-artists.org/~dlakelan > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
