Re: [Tango-L] Tango without music?
> From: Michael tangoman...@cavtel.net > > Once you start a figure, you have to finish a figure.> I thought we were talking about teaching [not dancing], particularly beginners. So isn't that the same in most tango classes? i.e. figure-based. > "that's a slow, not a quick." No AT teacher would say "that's supposed to be a slow."> He would if the student danced a single 'quick', or any odd number, or he'd be off-beat. Unless syncopation was being taught - not likely in anything other than an advanced class. Jack ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango without music?
Jack: I also dance ballroom so I can answer the question. Not only is ballroom 100% figure based, it's also 100% musically based. Each dance has an unique cadence which is repeated throughout the dance. Cha Cha is S-S-Q-Q-S or numerically 2-3-4-&-1. Fox Trot is S-S-Q-Q. Quick step is S-Q-Q-S. These cadences are repeated over and over. It doesn't make any difference which orchestra is playing the music. It makes a BIG difference which orchestra is playing AT. IMHO, DiSarli and Pugliese are polar opposites. Once you start a figure, you have to finish a figure. In AT, there are always possibilities after every step. In my ballroom lessons, my teacher will say "that's a slow, not a quick." No AT teacher would say "that's supposed to be a slow." Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines - Original Message - From: Jack Dylan To: tango-l List Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 2:27 AM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango without music? Yes, this is the way ballroom is taught because it's 100% figure-based. Unless the couple each know their steps to the same standard figures, they can't dance together. And yet, by some miracle, having learned the steps, they have no problem dancing those steps to the music. In fact, IMHO, ballroom dancers, on average, dance to the music far better than most tango dancers. No comment on why that is. Jack > From: Tom Stermitz > > > I have heard this is common in ballroom, but I don't have direct experience there. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango without music?
Tom, Let me explain before the subject can be declared beaten to death. What I started with was mildly exaggerated my own beginner learning experience from the last century. In my text further on you saw "...a short non-music time is needeed...". As an example let me describe this exchange: Instructor: "OK, show me...no, no forget the music now...you go in with your left to get a calf-to-calf contact, wait, again, keep your heel low to limit the risk of hurting your partner. Continue by weight transfer on your left and close the right to the left, it's your space now. That's OK, now try again and make sure that you do not push the follower from her axis... And so on... OK, now, hear the music..." Clearly a teaching interval where the music was unnecessary. Needless to say that you know what is being taught. Jan --- On Tue, 4/26/11, Tom Stermitz wrote: > From: Tom Stermitz > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango without music? > To: "tango-l List" > Date: Tuesday, April 26, 2011, 12:02 AM > On Apr 25, 2011, at 8:14 PM, jan > bares wrote: > > Martin, Tom, > > Sorry, have to disagree. You have a student whose > total > > concentration is on “which foot first and where do I > place it? And > > then, where does my other foot go?” It does not > matter how well the > > instructor explains the music, the music at this point > is a > > distraction or at best the student just tunes it out. > We could not > > get a better testimony than that from Huck who is a > musician. The > > student needs to be comfortable enough with the > movement to be able > > to allocate at least a part of his attention to the > music. The > > instructor can judge the student’s progress and > leave the music for > > the time when it can be appreciated. Even when the > student loves the > > music and it “makes him move” a short NON-music > time is needed to > > get his movements under control. And then comes the > leading – how to > > control her feet? Same issues. > > ... > > Jan > > > > @ Jan > > I have 15 years of teaching experience informing me that it > is both > possible, useful and necessary to teach music and movement > at the same > time. I have much experience informing me that without > teaching music > with movement at the beginning, you get people who "DO > tango steps" > but "don't DANCE tango". From the teacher perspective, > without music > and movement together, student retention is low because > people do not > feel like they are dancing; if things just don't "feel > right" they > have low confidence, and very low achievement of the > material. > > Maybe you need to try checking out several different > teachers with > different methods from your experience. > > And, What the heck do you mean by people having the > problem: “which > foot first and where do I place it? And then, where does my > other foot > go?”. Have you actually seen this? I mean, beyond the > first ten > seconds of class? For sure, get a different teacher who > bypasses that > concern. > > > @ David > > > Unless you’re from another planet every one of you > have had a tango > > lesson > > group or private > > First the instructors will dance the figure > their going to teach > > Now the men and women get split up usually > facing each other from > > across > > the room > > WITHOUT MUSIC the instructors will walk through > the figure for both > > the > > men and the women > > In planet Denver, I have never seen this instructional > method, and in > 15 years have never used this method. Okay, to be honest > there are a > couple of specific figures that need different explanations > for men > and women, which are easier to manage by separating the > couple for a > moment, but not at the beginning level. In general, tango > requires > intense lead-follow skills so there is no value in > separating the > partners. > > I have heard this is common in ballroom, but I don't have > direct > experience there. > > > Tom Stermitz > c: 303-725-5963 > http://www.tango.org > Denver, CO 80207 > > > > > > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango without music?
Yes, this is the way ballroom is taught because it's 100% figure-based. Unless the couple each know their steps to the same standard figures, they can't dance together. And yet, by some miracle, having learned the steps, they have no problem dancing those steps to the music. In fact, IMHO, ballroom dancers, on average, dance to the music far better than most tango dancers. No comment on why that is. Jack > From: Tom Stermitz > > > I have heard this is common in ballroom, but I don't have direct > experience there. > ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango without music?
Good points from all sides. However, I think it's useful to differentiate between what someone teaches and what someone else learns. Thus, I can try to teach musicality, but it could be that the person I'm trying to teach doesn't learn it right then and there. All I can do is wait until his/her brain is able to accept it or his/her body memory translates it into musicality. I find that with most people the most effective way for me to teach musicality is by building it into the timing of the vocabulary I'm teaching. But I don't consider it teaching musicality. Primarily they are learning a step. Watching them learn, I see people add in the musicality themselves, but only after they're comfortable with the step. That's when I might hear them say "I am having trouble with the musicality". More experienced dancers may say that before they learn a sequence, but not newer dancers. I also have people who change the timing to suit their ability to execute a step. For example, I may be teaching a QQS timing, but they'll do it as SSS. That tells me that the vocabulary comes before the musicality for them. In January, I experimented with a visiting instructor on teaching musicality using choreography to a set musical phrase. The experience showed that people fluctuate back and forth between learning the step versus learning the music. In the beginning, they used the choreography to hear things in the music that they were unaware of (or didn't know what to do with) - a case of the step coming first and the music second. In another part of the phrase, they needed to understand the music before the vocabulary clicked with them (in this case, a decoration). I think that underlying any of these learning processes for someone is the thought "why am I learning/doing this?" That "why" can be answered differently at different times. Dancing tango is a process, and people find their own path. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango without music?
On Apr 25, 2011, at 8:14 PM, jan bares wrote: > Martin, Tom, > Sorry, have to disagree. You have a student whose total > concentration is on “which foot first and where do I place it? And > then, where does my other foot go?” It does not matter how well the > instructor explains the music, the music at this point is a > distraction or at best the student just tunes it out. We could not > get a better testimony than that from Huck who is a musician. The > student needs to be comfortable enough with the movement to be able > to allocate at least a part of his attention to the music. The > instructor can judge the student’s progress and leave the music for > the time when it can be appreciated. Even when the student loves the > music and it “makes him move” a short NON-music time is needed to > get his movements under control. And then comes the leading – how to > control her feet? Same issues. > ... > Jan > @ Jan I have 15 years of teaching experience informing me that it is both possible, useful and necessary to teach music and movement at the same time. I have much experience informing me that without teaching music with movement at the beginning, you get people who "DO tango steps" but "don't DANCE tango". From the teacher perspective, without music and movement together, student retention is low because people do not feel like they are dancing; if things just don't "feel right" they have low confidence, and very low achievement of the material. Maybe you need to try checking out several different teachers with different methods from your experience. And, What the heck do you mean by people having the problem: “which foot first and where do I place it? And then, where does my other foot go?”. Have you actually seen this? I mean, beyond the first ten seconds of class? For sure, get a different teacher who bypasses that concern. @ David > Unless you’re from another planet every one of you have had a tango > lesson > group or private > First the instructors will dance the figure their going to teach > Now the men and women get split up usually facing each other from > across > the room > WITHOUT MUSIC the instructors will walk through the figure for both > the > men and the women In planet Denver, I have never seen this instructional method, and in 15 years have never used this method. Okay, to be honest there are a couple of specific figures that need different explanations for men and women, which are easier to manage by separating the couple for a moment, but not at the beginning level. In general, tango requires intense lead-follow skills so there is no value in separating the partners. I have heard this is common in ballroom, but I don't have direct experience there. Tom Stermitz c: 303-725-5963 http://www.tango.org Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Tango without music?
Martin, Tom, Sorry, have to disagree. You have a student whose total concentration is on “which foot first and where do I place it? And then, where does my other foot go?” It does not matter how well the instructor explains the music, the music at this point is a distraction or at best the student just tunes it out. We could not get a better testimony than that from Huck who is a musician. The student needs to be comfortable enough with the movement to be able to allocate at least a part of his attention to the music. The instructor can judge the student’s progress and leave the music for the time when it can be appreciated. Even when the student loves the music and it “makes him move” a short NON-music time is needed to get his movements under control. And then comes the leading – how to control her feet? Same issues. As to Martin’s observation of good technical dancers who do not pay attention to the music, the cause could be in the instruction or, it could be that what they enjoy is having mastered the movement and just plain do not care about the music. Well, it’s a free country. It is up to the ladies who can refuse their invitation to dance AND tell them why. And, no, I do not want to be mean. However "The only reason to dance IS the music" - no, not for all. Maybe later. For many, the reason to dance is because it is an effective socializing tool. They carefully review the dance classes and choose a dance where there is enough students of the opposite sex to justify the effort. :-) Jan ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango without music?
Let’s try to sort this music / learning / dancing question out. Unless you’re from another planet every one of you have had a tango lesson group or private First the instructors will dance the figure their going to teach Now the men and women get split up usually facing each other from across the room WITHOUT MUSIC the instructors will walk through the figure for both the men and the women This is repeated many times until everyone feels comfortable doing at least the first few steps of the figure Now you find a partner and practice what you were just taught WITHOUT MUSIC OK split up face each other from across the room and learn the rest of the figure WITHOUT MUSIC Find a partner and practice the whole figure WITHOUT MUSIC Does everyone think they’ve got it? Good, NOW lets try it to MUSIC I don’t think anyone ever suggested dancing tango without music but first with repetition the muscle memory takes over you learn the figure and then add the music. David In a message dated 4/25/2011 11:31:01 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, l...@tampabay.rr.com writes: I totally agree, how can anyone dance without music, it's the engine that drives the dance. I was once told "the music leads the man, the man invites the follower and she moves to the step. It's one thing to practice without music when there is none available on rare occasions, but not to do it as a rule or a learning device, Len in Clearwater FL On 04/25/2011 1:57 PM, Nussbaum, Martin wrote: > Totally disagree with all those who want to isolate tango instruction > from the music. The only reason to dance IS the music. If not, just > take up tai chi, or contact improv, or partner yoga, why bother with > tango. The student should learn the feel of the steps, the technique, > and the movements, within the context of a phrase of tango music. > Using music as the base will get the student ready for social dance > quicker, because he/she will be more comfortable and familiar with the > music at the milonga, and the phrasing necessary to make the experience > worthwhile. Technique without music lacks soul and emotion. it is > barren. I have seen the results of this approach personally. There > are some great technical dancers I watch in milongas who move > beautifully with perfect posture and technique, but I often wonder if > they are listening to different music on an ipod, because they certainly > aren't dancing to what the DJ is playing. In fact, their movement in > milonga is exactly the same as their movement in vals, or tango. An > over-emphasis on technique and complex combinations has led to what I > call the homogenization of bland-faux-Nuevo tango in north america. Lots > of cool moves seemingly randomly placed in the music. Very few > performers seem connected to each other and the music, and very few > couples seem concerned about telling a story in the tango music, > utilizing phrasing and emotion. If someone is going to perform and they > don't move the audience, all the technique they spent years acquiring > was a waste of time, the performance will be sterile. Even more so for > the non-pro casual dancer, who will not last the 2000 hours of technical > mastery if he cant dance to the music. Development of personal style and > expression should start from the first step, not waiting for some > distant time when you master the technique. > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango without music?
I took a week of classes from Daniel Trenner, et al, at Tango Locura in Montreal in 1999 ( or 1998). He said (I hope I get the quote right) "To dance tango, you first have to learn how to dance. Before you can learn how to dance, you have to learn how to move. But some people go directly to dancing tango, without going through movement and dance." I also remember him saying in a vals class that you "should provoke pleasure in your partner." Repeating from another message I wrote: If you can't dance without the music, you can't dance with the music. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines Moving to New York From: Nussbaum, Martin Totally disagree with all those who want to isolate tango instruction from the music. The only reason to dance IS the music. The student should learn the feel of the steps, the technique, and the movements, within the context of a phrase of tango music. Using music as the base will get the student ready for social dance quicker, because he/she will be more comfortable and familiar with the music at the milonga, and the phrasing necessary to make the experience worthwhile. Technique without music lacks soul and emotion. it is barren. An over-emphasis on technique and complex combinations has led to what I call the homogenization of bland-faux-Nuevo tango in north america. Very few performers seem connected to each other and the music, and very few couples seem concerned about telling a story in the tango music, utilizing phrasing and emotion. Even more so for the non-pro casual dancer, who will not last the 2000 hours of technical mastery if he cant dance to the music. Development of personal style and expression should start from the first step, not waiting for some distant time when you master the technique. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango without music?
Almost all beginners can step on the beat, with a little (decent) instruction. Dancing to the music means movement energy corresponds to musical energy, which is about the beat plus the phrase. When a beginner moves WITH the phrase of the music, the movements feel right, and he has more confidence. When a beginner takes steps that don't correspond to the phrase, he feels lost and confused. Usually, he says "I can't hear the beat", but he means he can't feel the phrase of the music. So, I'm with Martin, not Huck on this one. Sounds like Huck took a class with a teacher who doesn't know how to explain musical movement. A lot of teachers are intuitive about music, but have no idea how to teach it. On Apr 25, 2011, at 12:28 PM, Huck Kennedy wrote: > On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 10:57 AM, Nussbaum, Martin > wrote: >> Totally disagree with all those who want to isolate tango instruction >> from the music. The only reason to dance IS the music. > > While I absolutely agree that music is the only reason to dance, > learning a movement and practicing aren't dancing. So overall I > disagree with Martin, and believe those who say learning technique > should come separately from trying to apply musicality are correct. > When trying to master basic movement, musicality can be a distraction. > ... > Now having said all that, and at the risk of sounding like I'm > contradicting myself, I agree with Martin that musicality still needs > to be introduced from the very beginning, even if it's just practicing > simple walking expressed musically. > > Huck Tom Stermitz c: 303-725-5963 http://www.tango.org Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango without music?
I also believe that any movement, sequence, should be able to be executed in slow motion to make sure that balance is maintained at all stages (excluding volcadas and colgadas, even those too can be performed in slow motion). Obviously music is not required. On the other hand, one can always find "slow" music to achieve this slow motion practice (slower than Di Sarli). Gordon On 4/25/11 2:28 PM, Huck Kennedy wrote: > On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 10:57 AM, Nussbaum, Martin > wrote: >> Totally disagree with all those who want to isolate tango instruction >> from the music. The only reason to dance IS the music. >While I absolutely agree that music is the only reason to dance, > learning a movement and practicing aren't dancing. So overall I > disagree with Martin, and believe those who say learning technique > should come separately from trying to apply musicality are correct. > When trying to master basic movement, musicality can be a distraction. > >I remember a workshop long ago when I was still a beginner, and > the female half of the Argentine couple was scolding the class as the > male danced. "See how musical he is? See how he is so expressive? > Why can't all of you do that?" > >I thought to myself, "Lady, I'm a musician, and I have more > musicality in my little finger than your partner has in his whole > body. I have the technique down to express that musicality with a > violin, but I haven't yet mastered enough dance technique to be able > to express it in the tango." > >When at a lesson or practicing and feeling a bit overwhelmed, > don't be afraid to put aside the music when you need to in order to > get your technique down.There's nothing wrong with saying to your > practice partner, "Do you mind if we ignore the music at first and > slow it down until I feel a bit more confident with this particular > move?" > > We only have so much brainpower, and trying to put the icing > (musicality) on the cake (mastering the movement) before the cake is > baked can be counter-productive. Once the movement is mastered and we > get into muscle memory territory, then we can concentrate on the > musicality. > > Now having said all that, and at the risk of sounding like I'm > contradicting myself, I agree with Martin that musicality still needs > to be introduced from the very beginning, even if it's just practicing > simple walking expressed musically. > > Huck > > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango without music?
I totally agree, how can anyone dance without music, it's the engine that drives the dance. I was once told "the music leads the man, the man invites the follower and she moves to the step. It's one thing to practice without music when there is none available on rare occasions, but not to do it as a rule or a learning device, Len in Clearwater FL On 04/25/2011 1:57 PM, Nussbaum, Martin wrote: > Totally disagree with all those who want to isolate tango instruction > from the music. The only reason to dance IS the music. If not, just > take up tai chi, or contact improv, or partner yoga, why bother with > tango. The student should learn the feel of the steps, the technique, > and the movements, within the context of a phrase of tango music. > Using music as the base will get the student ready for social dance > quicker, because he/she will be more comfortable and familiar with the > music at the milonga, and the phrasing necessary to make the experience > worthwhile. Technique without music lacks soul and emotion. it is > barren. I have seen the results of this approach personally. There > are some great technical dancers I watch in milongas who move > beautifully with perfect posture and technique, but I often wonder if > they are listening to different music on an ipod, because they certainly > aren't dancing to what the DJ is playing. In fact, their movement in > milonga is exactly the same as their movement in vals, or tango. An > over-emphasis on technique and complex combinations has led to what I > call the homogenization of bland-faux-Nuevo tango in north america. Lots > of cool moves seemingly randomly placed in the music. Very few > performers seem connected to each other and the music, and very few > couples seem concerned about telling a story in the tango music, > utilizing phrasing and emotion. If someone is going to perform and they > don't move the audience, all the technique they spent years acquiring > was a waste of time, the performance will be sterile. Even more so for > the non-pro casual dancer, who will not last the 2000 hours of technical > mastery if he cant dance to the music. Development of personal style and > expression should start from the first step, not waiting for some > distant time when you master the technique. > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango without music?
On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 10:57 AM, Nussbaum, Martin wrote: > Totally disagree with all those who want to isolate tango instruction > from the music. The only reason to dance IS the music. While I absolutely agree that music is the only reason to dance, learning a movement and practicing aren't dancing. So overall I disagree with Martin, and believe those who say learning technique should come separately from trying to apply musicality are correct. When trying to master basic movement, musicality can be a distraction. I remember a workshop long ago when I was still a beginner, and the female half of the Argentine couple was scolding the class as the male danced. "See how musical he is? See how he is so expressive? Why can't all of you do that?" I thought to myself, "Lady, I'm a musician, and I have more musicality in my little finger than your partner has in his whole body. I have the technique down to express that musicality with a violin, but I haven't yet mastered enough dance technique to be able to express it in the tango." When at a lesson or practicing and feeling a bit overwhelmed, don't be afraid to put aside the music when you need to in order to get your technique down.There's nothing wrong with saying to your practice partner, "Do you mind if we ignore the music at first and slow it down until I feel a bit more confident with this particular move?" We only have so much brainpower, and trying to put the icing (musicality) on the cake (mastering the movement) before the cake is baked can be counter-productive. Once the movement is mastered and we get into muscle memory territory, then we can concentrate on the musicality. Now having said all that, and at the risk of sounding like I'm contradicting myself, I agree with Martin that musicality still needs to be introduced from the very beginning, even if it's just practicing simple walking expressed musically. Huck ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Tango without music?
Totally disagree with all those who want to isolate tango instruction from the music. The only reason to dance IS the music. If not, just take up tai chi, or contact improv, or partner yoga, why bother with tango. The student should learn the feel of the steps, the technique, and the movements, within the context of a phrase of tango music. Using music as the base will get the student ready for social dance quicker, because he/she will be more comfortable and familiar with the music at the milonga, and the phrasing necessary to make the experience worthwhile. Technique without music lacks soul and emotion. it is barren. I have seen the results of this approach personally. There are some great technical dancers I watch in milongas who move beautifully with perfect posture and technique, but I often wonder if they are listening to different music on an ipod, because they certainly aren't dancing to what the DJ is playing. In fact, their movement in milonga is exactly the same as their movement in vals, or tango. An over-emphasis on technique and complex combinations has led to what I call the homogenization of bland-faux-Nuevo tango in north america. Lots of cool moves seemingly randomly placed in the music. Very few performers seem connected to each other and the music, and very few couples seem concerned about telling a story in the tango music, utilizing phrasing and emotion. If someone is going to perform and they don't move the audience, all the technique they spent years acquiring was a waste of time, the performance will be sterile. Even more so for the non-pro casual dancer, who will not last the 2000 hours of technical mastery if he cant dance to the music. Development of personal style and expression should start from the first step, not waiting for some distant time when you master the technique. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
