[Tango-L] Why is it so hard to walk?
I've been watching some new leaders in our community, and they struggle with walking. Huge steps leading with their legs, or holding themselves in an awkward contorted stance and walking with always-bent legs, or taking very wide steps when walking forwards, or being unable to coordinate to a relatively slow beat and having to hover the foot in the air waiting for the beat to catch up before putting it down. Why is it so hard for people to walk? I leave aside the problems for followers in walking backwards as being obviously a new motion to learn -- but maybe I'm wrong that the follower has the uniquely difficult walking challenge. Maybe walking forwards to the beat of music is inherently difficult as well. How do you help your beginners to walk reasonably and musically? ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] why is it so hard to walk
This concept of getting the followers out of the way is the wrong concept to put in the lead's headhe will step on her if he does not place his foot directily in front of his stationary foot. iI he walks astride the woman rather than directly towards her center line, he will step on her...it is not a question of getting her out of the way, it is a question of proper foot placement...and of course, leading with the soler plexis while leaving the legs slightly behind his body...that way , she is able to step back as he advances with his mid section and then follows with is feet and legs which are literally lagging behind his body. Men who lean back, or dance totally verticle cannot "get the woman out of the way" because he is keeping her in his space. I find that the use of such indelicate phrases regarding the follow's role is counter productive and does not create the correct mindset for the beginning student. No Argentine teacher would ever make references like this..sherrie ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Why is it so hard to walk?
One person writes: >no cross-body-motion when they walk And another person writes: >so we have to learn to walk in counterposcione I think you're refering to CBM and CBMP. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contra_body_movement . ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Why is it so hard to walk?
Eero Olli writes: >Some men have hard time converting the music to weight >shift. They hear the rhythm (they can clap it) but they >are not able to figure out where their body should be >during the beat. If you do a clapping exercise in a group, it doesn't mean that these men can hear the rhythm in the music. It only means that they can see and hear their fellow students clap. A true test would be to have the students clap individually. >A good exercise is a slow milonga. I don't remember the >name of the step (double step-walk?): you reach out with >one foot, stop with a small weight on the forward foot, >and step again one inch longer with the same foot (this is >resembles the prolongement used in tango). I don't know if the step you're describing has a name. You would use this step in milonga traspie. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Why is it so hard to walk?
On 06/16/2011 5:13 PM, Sharon Pedersen wrote: > I've been watching some new leaders in our community, and they struggle with > walking. Huge steps leading with their legs, or holding themselves in an > awkward contorted stance and walking with always-bent legs, or taking very > wide steps when walking forwards, or being unable to coordinate to a > relatively slow beat and having to hover the foot in the air waiting for the > beat to catch up before putting it down. Why is it so hard for people to > walk? > > I leave aside the problems for followers in walking backwards as being > obviously a new motion to learn -- but maybe I'm wrong that the follower has > the uniquely difficult walking challenge. Maybe walking forwards to the > beat of music is inherently difficult as well. > > How do you help your beginners to walk reasonably and musically? > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > As a 12 year follower who struggled with tango in general, my guess is that most men especially those who never danced anything are not coordinated for graceful moves and almost "muscle" the lead. men tend o be less graceful in general. I could be wrong but thats my 2 cents worth Len ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Why is it so hard to walk?
On 16/06/2011 23:13, Sharon Pedersen wrote: > I've been watching some new leaders in our community, and they struggle with > walking. Huge steps leading with their legs, or holding themselves in an > awkward contorted stance and walking with always-bent legs, or taking very > wide steps when walking forwards, or being unable to coordinate to a > relatively slow beat and having to hover the foot in the air waiting for the > beat to catch up before putting it down. Why is it so hard for people to > walk? Because walking *in an embrace* requires trust. Trust that the follower will move out of the way, to name just one thing. Also, if you don't tell them the embrace is not something you should break and what that entails, they may not turn to the follower when e.g. stepping outside and Things Will Not Work. > > How do you help your beginners to walk reasonably and musically? > With the minimum of fuss. Tell them not to bounce up and down, keep the knees slightly flexible when the feet are joined (to avoid being perched on stilts), to collect their feet to avoid waggling, to watch the embrace and then walk just like they were strolling, and they'll do fine. But as you can see from the list, there's enough that can go wrong... Confuse them with things like "move like a cat/tiger/whatever" or worse "land on the toe on forward steps so that your body moves up and down with the strong and the weak beat of the music" and it's a game of "if you can't beat them, confuse them". What they do have to learn is how to lead (i.e. how to make sure the follower gets out of the way so that they can indeed just walk). Tricky, that, and there are even different schools of thought (I confess I'm a minimalist there: a good connection and a small weight transfer does wonders, but some others seem to use no weight transfer and subtle turning, which gives the walk a different style). All of them require careful nurturing of the embrace, though. If you aren't communicating, you won't be understood no matter how you say it. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Why is it so hard to walk?
On 16/06/2011 23:37, lenl wrote: > men tend to be less graceful in general. But you don't dance with the "general" or generic man no more than I dance with the generic woman ;). ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Why is it so hard to walk?
Yes, I'd agree with that. Elegant walking IS hard, especially in the beginning - until it finally becomes easy. After my first year of Tango I realized I still couldn't walk well and then took many privates and workshops to improve my walk. Regular group classes are not enough. And you have to practice a lot at home and you have to go to practica with a partner and just walk for many kilometers. Some adults have little or no cross-body-motion when they walk, even just walking on the street. One friend of mine who is a professor of dance at the University remarked that some of our poorer dancers seemed to have missing stages of development in their walk. As if they never crawled properly before learning to walk. El Stevito de Gainesvile On 6/16/11 5:37 PM, lenl wrote: >As a 12 year follower who struggled with tango in general, my guess is > that most men especially those who never danced anything are not > coordinated for graceful moves and almost "muscle" the lead. men tend o > be less graceful in general. I could be wrong but thats my 2 cents worth ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Why is it so hard to walk?
North Americans do not have a culture of walking, just walking with style down the street, with grace, attitude and good carriageso we have to learn to walk in counterposcione before we can even begin to learn tango steps. Just go to Spain, France, Italy, Argentina and look how the people walk, stroll, saunter with attitude and statement and dignity along the sidewalks. Casual walking is an artform in many cultures, so they have a leg up on the tango walk(no pun intended). Sherrie ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Why is it so hard to walk?
Walking is not at all hard. The average guy has spent a lifetime walking around the planet without falling over. If the guys are having problems walking, I would suggest that the teacher has created a situation where the men are unable to reference that life-long skill. In short: have them walk "normal". They already know how to do that! The main problem comes when they think they have to do something different or special to dance. If you can get them "just walking" (heel ball, on the beat), you have solved 90% of the problem. The rest of the problem comes because they are worried about stepping on the followers' feet. You have to make sure the followers are getting out of the way, with or without good technique. If they are trapping the leaders, the tangle of feet will reinforce the worry about stepping on the followers' feet. Musicality is a different matter from walking, but confident musicality is key to confident walking. Musical walking first means walking on the beat. A normal walk has a stride and a tempo close enough to the tango beat, so walking on the beat isn't that hard. The typical QQS pattern isn't too hard, so you can get walking and rhythm on the first day. Musicality also means "movement energy corresponding to the phrase of the music". I teach walking to the phrase from day one, but I don't think many teachers do that. Usually, I see beginners walking around the room on the slow beat moving like robots: no commas, no periods, no acceleration, no suspension. Coming to a "together" step at the commas and periods of the phrasing builds in musical movement. Back to confident musicality. If it "feels right", i.e. the movements correspond to the music, then you get good, confident beginner walking. I guess if you had confident musicality, you might also get good walking from the advanced dancers. On Jun 16, 2011, at 3:13 PM, Sharon Pedersen wrote: > I've been watching some new leaders in our community, and they > struggle with > walking. Huge steps leading with their legs, or holding themselves > in an > awkward contorted stance and walking with always-bent legs, or > taking very > wide steps when walking forwards, or being unable to coordinate to a > relatively slow beat and having to hover the foot in the air waiting > for the > beat to catch up before putting it down. Why is it so hard for > people to > walk? > ... > How do you help your beginners to walk reasonably and musically? Tom Stermitz c: 303-725-5963 http://www.tango.org Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Why is it so hard to walk?
On Jun 16, 2011, at 4:41 PM, sherp...@aol.com wrote: > North Americans do not have a culture of walking, just walking with > style down the street, with grace, attitude and good carriage I stand by my statement that men (even North American men), have spent a lifetime walking around the planet without falling over. They arrive at tango with that skill. Grace, attitude, posture are not cultural issues. > so we have to learn to walk in counterposcione before we can even > begin to learn tango steps. I do not quite understand this sentence. What would be the English translation of "counterposcione"? And, why would that be a pre-requisite for learning tango? > Just go to Spain, France, Italy, Argentina and look how the people > walk, stroll, saunter with attitude and statement and dignity along > the sidewalks. Casual walking is an artform in many cultures, so > they have a leg up on the tango walk(no pun intended). > Sherrie I don't buy into all these cultural comments. It is true that most Argentines have grown up listening to tango and seeing it, at least a little. But, there are lots of Argentines who do not have good technique in their tango. > This concept of getting the followers out of the way is the wrong > concept to put in the lead's headhe will step on her if he does > not place his foot directily in front of his stationary foot. iI he > walks astride the woman rather than directly towards her center > line, he will step on her...it is not a question of getting her out > of the way, it is a question of proper foot placement. No > Argentine teacher would ever make references like this..sherrie And yes, if the follower does not get out of the way, she will be stepped on. That isn't the whole story, but it is a necessary requirement. I'm not Argentine, but then, human bodies and physics is not an Argentine concept. Tom Stermitz c: 303-725-5963 http://www.tango.org Denver, CO 80207 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Why is it so hard to walk?
Sharon: Let's put aside musicality for now. Beginner leaders are rarely taught HOW to lead. They are usually taught WHAT to lead. The emphasis is what does the man do with his feet. This reinforces that it's more important for the man to know what he is doing instead of what the woman should be doing. I teach the CONCEPT of leading. I talk about food shopping and put a chair with wheels in front of myself. I explain I don't push the chair to get it out of my way and step forward. I illustrate that my arms are part of my frame and the upper body has to move first. If my feet move first, I'll kick the chair (shopping cart.) The sequence is I come onto the balls of my feet, my weight moves forward and energy is transmitted to the chair though my arms. The chair moves backward and NOW there is space for me to move forward. I don't think men are taught the A frame. Just because there isn't room at chest level doesn't mean there isn't room on the floor. If the man leads the woman to step backward, there will be space for the man to come forward. If he's afraid the woman won't move, he will forcibly push with his arms or step around the woman. Michael Going home to New York On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 5:13 PM, Sharon Pedersen wrote: > I've been watching some new leaders in our community, and they struggle > with alking. Huge steps leading with their legs, or holding themselves in > an > awkward contorted stance and walking with always-bent legs, or taking very > wide steps when walking forwards, or being unable to coordinate to a > relatively slow beat and having to hover the foot in the air waiting for > the > beat to catch up before putting it down. > > How do you help your beginners to walk reasonably and musically?-- ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Why is it so hard to walk?
I have to agree with Tom. It's the teacher making it difficult for these men. The issues you're talking about aren't your typical newbie issues. At least, I haven't encountered these issues in my years of teaching. It sounds to me that despite the technical aspects already discussed and those not yet brought up, these men are just trying too hard. None of the technical stuff is going to help if they aren't relaxed enough to just plain walk normally. Trini de Pittsburgh --- On Thu, 6/16/11, Sharon Pedersen wrote: I've been watching some new leaders in our community, and they struggle with walking. Huge steps leading with their legs, or holding themselves in an awkward contorted stance and walking with always-bent legs, or taking very wide steps when walking forwards, or being unable to coordinate to a relatively slow beat and having to hover the foot in the air waiting for the beat to catch up before putting it down. Why is it so hard for people to walk? ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Why is it so hard to walk?
On 17/06/11 08:18, Steve Littler wrote: > Some adults have little or no cross-body-motion when they walk, even > just walking on the street. One friend of mine who is a professor of > dance at the University remarked that some of our poorer dancers seemed > to have missing stages of development in their walk. As if they never > crawled properly before learning to walk. In fact, there is a significant percentage of babies that naturally crawl in a parallel system rather than the more common (it is a mistake to call it "properly") cross system. Learning cross-body motion is a significant challenge for these people after they become adults, and teachers should recognise the difficulty. Myk, in Canberra ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Why is it so hard to walk?
On 17/06/11 08:15, Alexis Cousein wrote: > On 16/06/2011 23:13, Sharon Pedersen wrote: >> I've been watching some new leaders in our community, and they struggle with >> walking. Huge steps leading with their legs, or holding themselves in an >> awkward contorted stance and walking with always-bent legs, or taking very >> wide steps when walking forwards, or being unable to coordinate to a >> relatively slow beat and having to hover the foot in the air waiting for the >> beat to catch up before putting it down. Why is it so hard for people to >> walk? > Because walking *in an embrace* requires trust. Trust that the > follower will move out of the way, to name just one thing. Also, > if you don't tell them the embrace is not something you should break > and what that entails, they may not turn to the follower when e.g. > stepping outside and Things Will Not Work. Trust is difficult to build when neither the leader nor the follower know what they're doing. A leader whose first attempt at leading properly ends in the followers toes being stepped on finds it hard to start leading properly. The solution? Don't let beginners dance with beginners. Obviously, that's not always a workable solution, but seeding experienced dancers into a beginners class does help significantly. Myk, in Canberra ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Why is it so hard to walk?
Well, that's an interesting question. Ballroom dancers, to my knowledge, rarely complain about difficulty "traveling" as they say. They do complain about stepping on toes and tangled feet. Tangueros, on the other hand, do complain about walking, and it can be difficult. Contrasting the two forms, with A. tango, at least some styles of A. tango, walking is done without offset in a single track while with ballroom dance walking is performed with each partner offset in double tracks, quadruple tracks if you count the partner. So tango dancers in effect are dancing on a balance beam. What's more, they are dancing on a balance beam pushing on each other. On every step there is a compression and release felt in the chest. Ballroom dancers experience some compression and release, but it's coming through the frame (i.e. the arms). The arms can give a little to absorb the shock; the chest cannot. To make the distinction between ballroom and tango clearer, some of my most unpleasant experiences dancing A. tango have been with ballroom dancers who use ballroom posture and technique while dancing A. tango. On more than one occasion, I have come close to landing on top of my partner on the floor as she leans back pulling me over. Now that I'm older and wiser when I find myself with a ballroom dancer, I brace myself by getting my weight back. Bob San Francisco ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Why is it so hard to walk?
wrote: Bob: The primary difference between AT and ballroom is AT is a dance of possibilities, one step at a time. Ballroom is different in that there are prescribed steps. Women expect to begin going backwards on their right foot in tango, waltz, rumba, quickstep, and foxtrot. In AT, the woman doesn't know. Women who dance AT have to wait to find out if they are going to step sideways or backwards with the right foot. Michael Dances ballroom, latin, and Argentine Tango > Ballroom dancers, to my knowledge, rarely complain about difficulty > "traveling" as they say. They do complain about stepping on toes and > tangled feet. > > Tangueros, on the other hand, do complain about walking, and it can be > difficult. > > So tango dancers in effect are dancing on a balance beam. What's more, > they are dancing on a balance beam pushing on each other. On every step > there is a compression and release felt in the chest. Ballroom dancers > experience some compression and release, but it's coming through the frame > (i.e. the arms). The arms can give a little to absorb the shock; the chest > cannot. > > Bob > San Francisco > > ___ > Tango-L mailing list > Tango-L@mit.edu > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l > -- I'd danced Argentine Tango- - with the Argentines ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] why is it so hard to walk
On 17/06/2011 01:22, sherp...@aol.com wrote: > This concept of getting the followers out of the way is the wrong > concept to put in the lead's head... No, it's not. Except I'd say "leading" her out of the way. > he will step on her if he does not > place his foot directily in front of his stationary foot. There is an infinity of possible positions. You only need to lead to accommodate them. > astride the woman rather than directly towards her center line, he will > step on her...it is not a question of getting her out of the way, it is > a question of proper foot placement...and of course, leading with the > soler plexis while leaving the legs slightly behind his body Which was exactly my point. Do the lead correctly and the rest follows. We tend to put our feet correctly in order to support our centre of gravity instinctively anyway. > Men who lean back, or dance totally verticle [sic] cannot "get the > woman out of the way" because he is keeping her in his space. Exactly my point again. They don't get her out of the way, she won't get out of the way. So they should, and that's the whole solution to the seemingly intractable problem of moving to a place where someone is currently standing, which is exactly what they need to learn which they don't need to learn while walking on their own. The problem is that I find some men actually try to lead with their body but will *not* step towards the lady when they're beginners because they think it's a "forbidden zone", which finally leads them a place where they have no choice but to break the embrace. > I find > that the use of such indelicate phrases I find 'indelicate', in this case, to be in the eye of the beholder. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Why is it so hard to walk?
On 17/06/2011 19:24, rhi...@netscape.net wrote: > Contrasting the two forms, with A. tango, at least some styles of A. > tango, walking is done without offset in a single track while with > ballroom dance walking is performed with each partner offset in double > tracks, quadruple tracks if you count the partner. So tango dancers in > effect are dancing on a balance beam. What's more, they are dancing on > a balance beam pushing on each other. On every step there is a > compression and release felt in the chest. Ballroom dancers experience > some compression and release, but it's coming through the frame (i.e. > the arms). The arms can give a little to absorb the shock; the chest > cannot. You generalise too much: there are many, many possible Argetine tango embraces (even an open one in which the mechanics you ascribe to ballroom dances are used) and even at least two different ways of leading a woman to step even in the most basic of salidas. Not only are we allowed the freedom to choose, we are even allowed to switch from one embrace to another one that works completely different within one dance! But you realise that, of course: you wrote "at least some styles of A. tango". But even in these styles, I would object to your description of compression/release and the impossibility of the chest connection to give. It's all a matter of knowing how smoothly to build up the movement... ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Why is it so hard to walk?
This thread started by Sharon asking: > How do you help your beginners to walk reasonably and musically? I think that is one of the most important questions to ask. Walking alone in a ring I like to have people walking alone in a large ring. There are problems that are individual and there are problems that belong to the couple. Walking alone allows the student to concentrate on their own technique. Tango walk is a little different from regular walking styles; there are differences in posture that require some changes in how muscles are used. Walking alone gives people a chance to concentrate on these small changes. The walk needs to be automatic. Because we have a life long practice in walking, our habits are strong. In order to create new habits hours and hours of walking is needed. Nevertheless, if you keep students walking alone for 10 hours, they have learned postural chages worth one year of tango lessons. Spend a 20 minutes of walking alone in the beginning of every class to improve individual technique and dance. It is like practicing scales with an instrument. I try to get beginners walking with purpose and pride, without talking too much about the details and different stages during the steps. It is better to get them really moving, use their walking competence and adjust that a little. Trying to teach walking theoretically step by step, works for with people who have a high level of body control (dancers, actors, some athletes and movement instructors). Regular beginners will loose all confidence and ability to move. Posture You can ask them to change posture while walking - just try out things: what happens in your back, neck and the hips when you lift your arms to an abrazo compared to having them down? What happens if you in addition let your shoulders come down? What happens, if there is life and movement in your upper torso while you walk, compared with a stiff upper body? What happens if you move your chest a little forward? What happens with your head and neck, if you look look forward. What happens if you let your neck relax? What happens if you create a column inside your body that start from the perineum and lifts upwards through your chest to the top of your head? All directions Walk forward, backwards, sideways, and sometimes men forward and women backwards. Walking backwards requires that everyone keep on equal distance to the person they can see closest to them. This will help to keep the ring. If the person closest to you is about to step on you, reach out with your hand to stop them = helps to create the trust needed to walk backwards. Learn the good from the bad You can ask students to do some bad and weird things (lift your feet high, stick your head forward or backward, stick your pelvis forward, Walk with unsymmetrical shoulders, walk up and one down, walk low with short steps= knees bent all the time) The list of errors is endless, after each error guide them back to a good posture. Feeling what the bad things do to your walk, helps to recognize them later in ones own dance. Finding the beat Some men have hard time converting the music to weight shift. They hear the rhythm (they can clap it) but they are not able to figure out where their body should be during the beat. Walking in the ring gives them time to watch what others are doing and it gives the teacher an opportunity to walk next to them and guide with their body. Put the students hand on your lower back, which allows them feel your weight shifts in relation to their own walk. Allow them time to synchronize their walk with yours - sometimes it takes a whole dance. Use slow, regular, pause or double tempo steps. You know the drill... Short steps vs. long steps Find the relation between height and step length. I like to call a normal step length, the step you can take without moving your hip or changing the point where your weight is placed under your standing leg. A normal step can be stopped without leaving your previous placement of weight. Prolonged steps Some beginners have seen tango dancers do long steps on stage, and they are trying to do prolonged steps as their normal step, which is not a good way to start. Knowing that prolonged steps exist, can help the beginners to avoid them. Prolonged steps are too difficult for for beginners to use in dance. But if you have mixed level class, it can be a nice excercise. Prolonged steps (or perhaps extended steps is better English) add an inch or two to the step length. The leader will ask for a prolonged step by moving a little further during the step = the weight is not comfortably in the ball of the standing foot any more, but in the very extreme front of the standing foot at the moment, when the moving foot is placed on the floor. Be careful to not increase the length by moving only the hip forward. The same applies in steps to any direction. A good exercise is a slow milonga. I don't remember the name of the step (double step-walk?): you rea
