Re: [Tango-L] Women's power in tango
I dance mostly in Boston, the mecca for Argentine Tango that Sharukh founded, thank God for him. I love the community. It gives more to me than I can ever repay to it. I seek out every follower in a milonga to dance (except those who one way or another convey their disinterest.) I dance with every follower who asks me, whether by cabeceo or direct face to face request. There is no tanda with anyone that I have ever regretted. The only regret I experience is the regret a follower shares with me that ours is the only tanda she danced tonight. A community will stagnate for many reasons. One reason is that people feel unwelcome. I pray that does not happen to my Tango Society of Boston community. At 07:57 AM 6/13/2015, Shahrukh Merchant wrote: What a nice post, reminiscent of the some of the articulate and expressive posts of Tango-L's own golden age! A model post, really, in how even your disagreements with what others write are respectfully presented without losing any of their force. Please write more! :-) And feel free to copy your Why I don't need saving post onto the list as well; it would be interesting to see the range of opinions and reasons. The main reason I find for women or men not getting to dance as much as they would like is the simplest of them all: demand and supply (aka gender balance in a milonga setting). And just like in the non-tango world, demand and supply forces can be modulated to some extent in the same way that it is in the commercial world: E.g., - having a better quality product (however you define it) - marketing the better qualities that your mixed-quality product has - excellent marketing of a poor-quality product etc. etc. (though the metaphor breaks down with volume discounts which doesn't really transfer over to Tango :-)). Referring to the article you mentioned where the French guy was proposing symmetry in men and women being allowed to ask the other to dance: in terms of my own preference, I have no interest in being asked *directly* to dance by a woman (with the usual exceptions of those who know me well enough to do so, and I have no problem with the occasional ladies' choice tanda that some milongas have). But women have all sorts of ways of asking without having to ask directly, so they are hardly disempowered. Vive la différence! as far as I'm concerned--androgynous tango holds little interest for me. Shahrukh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2015.0.5961 / Virus Database: 4360/10015 - Release Date: 06/14/15 Allen Swartz 16 Stillman Road Melrose MA 02176 Office: 781 662 9546 Fax: 781 662 9546 Cell: 617 943 6988 Allen Swartz 16 Stillman Road Melrose MA 02176 Office: 781 662 9546 Fax: 781 662 9546 Cell: 617 943 6988 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Women's power in tango
Please take me off the mailing list! -Original Message- From: Felicity Graham graham.felic...@gmail.com To: tango-L tango-L@mit.edu Sent: Mon, Jun 15, 2015 3:17 pm Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's power in tango I don't know quite what to say, but thank you. I've got nothing more to add just now beyond what I've already said about women's power in the milonga but I thought it was interesting Shahrukh mentioned the golden age of Tango-L. I wasn't around then but I heard a little about it. I was very reluctant to use a mailing list, being unused to them, but curiosity prevailed and from my brief glimpse, it sure beats the chatter of social media. The UK tango groups I know of on Facebook seem to have a distinct geographical skew whereas the reach of Tango-L would appear to be more global. I think not knowing many of the characters personally because of that global spread is probably also a good thing. I picked up on a feeling lately in the list over 'was it' or 'had it been looking like' the end of Tango-L? That would be a shame I think. It seems unique I think offers a good alternative to the discussion groups on social media. Felicity ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Women's power in tango
Once a woman embraces a man to dance with, she is not helpless to just obey -- unless a leader is so bad to be totally insensitive, in which case she would likely never again dance with him. With a little effort she can let the leader know what she (dis)likes in a dance, starting with an embrace to musicality to embellishments, etc. On the other hand, there is a variety of reasons why we dance that are all individual and hardly debatable. So, what constitutes a good dance varies from situation to situation. What is most important is that there is a good communication between the partners so that they can adjust to each other's desires. ...dubravko === seek, appreciate, and create beauty this life is not a rehearsal ich bin der Schmied meines eigenen Glücks === http://okvarbud.blogspot.com/ http://dbtango.blogspot.com/ http://dbpolitics.blogspot.com/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Women's power in tango
Hello everyone The common element in most if not all of these, is that a milonga is a *social* event and not a dance competition where you have to pick your partner based almost exclusively on dance skill or compatibility. (Unfortunately, this seems to be increasingly forgotten at many levels.) I find that a very good point Shakrukh. Just this morning I discussed with my partner that those type of milongas seem to be disappearing around here, where people want to MEET and dance instead of exercise/improve/show their unspoken ranking. And women also have the power of dancing with 'not-so-good' dancers in order to help them gain practice and confidence and so support a lively community. No good tango dancer ever sprouted from having been turned down the whole evening. So I guess experienced dancers, be they male or female, should have the courtesy and grace to accept a couple of tanda's with the non-usual suspects. The hard part here is that one seems to lose one's own silly community ranking by doing so: Ah, if she dances with a guy like that, she can't be that good and I can't be seen with her too, otherwise it will spoil my own ranking. Sad story, actually.. Of course I use the power of cabeceo and of looking away, if not interested. There are dancers which are physically unpleasant, unkempt or obtrusive. If I end up dancing with such a dancer, I will most definitely look away next time. And if they return obnoxiously and even stand in front of me blocking my sight, it can happen I literally and unpolitely tell them, sorry, I gave you clear sign of not wanting to dance with you. Petra Still living in Zurich where Argentine Tango can be all sorts of things :-) ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Women's power in tango
Michael, Rest assured that you are not alone on this issue. I've had many conversations with women in our tango community about exactly the same thing. I have asked exactly the same question: Is BAD tango better than NO tango? Some women refer to gender imbalances when explaining their choice of BAD tango. However, not wanting to hurt the man's feelings is the most common reason here. It seems that our society has created women who are just too NICE for their own good. Some explain their habit with ballroom dancing etiquette, where apparently its rude to refuse an invitation (I have not experience with ballroom dancing, so can't say if this is true). Despite living in a modern country with gender equality, these women don't seem to realise that they have some power. They have the power of choosing their partner in a milonga (especially with the cabeceo). The broader implication of this is that they also have power to improve their tango community. Their choice of declining invitations from men whose behaviour or dancing skills are unacceptable will send a message to those individuals, ie. to shape up. To put it another way, I think that the women who continue to tolerate bad behaviour and complain are unwittingly part of the problem. More details on this post: http://www.tangosalonadelaide.blogspot.com.au/2012/06/imagine-if.html. Perhaps these women simply need to be empowered. Here are some strategies for selecting a dance partner which may help http://tangosalonadelaide.blogspot.com.au/2013/03/how-to-choose-dance-partne r.html I feel very strongly about this. So Michael, Im glad you pressed the SEND button. Patricia Adelaide, Australia -- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2015 23:07:40 -0400 From: Michael tangoman...@optimum.net Subject: [Tango-L] Women's power in tango To: Tango L Tango-L@Mit.Edu Message-ID: 003501d09f3c$c8ebb8d0$5ac32a70$@optimum.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Shahrukh is looking for list activity. I hope I can write this without being flamed or misunderstood. Women have power in tango. Either they don't know it or know it and don't know how to use it. (An alternative description is women finding their voice.) I don't hear everything women say between each other while they sit but I know they discuss the quality of the leaders. Women have complained to me that a leader bent their wrist backwards so they now have carpal tunnel syndrome or squeezed their hand so hard their knuckles almost exploded like popcorn. Why do women continue to dance with horrible leaders (based on their definition?) I remember Karin said she would hurt the man's feelings if she turned him down. I asked her What would you say if a man said 'Let's go to your place after the milonga and do the other tango?' I'd say NO! I asked, Why would you say NO? You'll hurt the man's feelings! I wish I had a camera because the look on her face was a (click) Kodak moment. I've seen men hold out their hand and women just jump. There's a man in New York who has a reputation for dropping partners on the floor. I was amazed that women still danced with him after he dropped one. Do men have the power of Count Dracula to force women to dance with them? (I guess that's the ultimate cabeceo.) I remember a woman who was talking to me say she was now going to dance a horrible tanda with a lousy leader. Why? Some women found their voice (and power) and don't have a problem turning men down even though it shocks some of them. My teacher said everybody has to answer the question Is BAD tango better than NO tango. Why is BAD tango better than NO tango? (Taking a chance pressing the SEND button. Michael Came home to New York where the Argentine Tango is better -- ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l End of Tango-L Digest, Vol 100, Issue 2 *** ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Women's power in tango
Shahrukh is looking for list activity. I hope I can write this without being flamed or misunderstood. Women have power in tango. Either they don't know it or know it and don't know how to use it. (An alternative description is women finding their voice.) I don't hear everything women say between each other while they sit but I know they discuss the quality of the leaders. Women have complained to me that a leader bent their wrist backwards so they now have carpal tunnel syndrome or squeezed their hand so hard their knuckles almost exploded like popcorn. Why do women continue to dance with horrible leaders (based on their definition?) I remember Karin said she would hurt the man's feelings if she turned him down. I asked her What would you say if a man said 'Let's go to your place after the milonga and do the other tango?' I'd say NO! I asked, Why would you say NO? You'll hurt the man's feelings! I wish I had a camera because the look on her face was a (click) Kodak moment. I've seen men hold out their hand and women just jump. There's a man in New York who has a reputation for dropping partners on the floor. I was amazed that women still danced with him after he dropped one. Do men have the power of Count Dracula to force women to dance with them? (I guess that's the ultimate cabeceo.) I remember a woman who was talking to me say she was now going to dance a horrible tanda with a lousy leader. Why? Some women found their voice (and power) and don't have a problem turning men down even though it shocks some of them. My teacher said everybody has to answer the question Is BAD tango better than NO tango. Why is BAD tango better than NO tango? (Taking a chance pressing the SEND button. Michael Came home to New York where the Argentine Tango is better ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
