Re: [Tango-L] social ethical behavior
Michael wrote: The reason cabeceo doesn't work well in New York (and other places) is milongas are close to pitch black and Same problem here (Melbourne, Australia) - usually too dark to see clearly. I had several unsatisfactory ventures into cabeceo on a recent night. I made successive approaches to three women, two guys , and a large aspidistra pot-plant. Later in the night I got luckier, scored an acceptance and, heart beating in anticipation, approached my willing partner, only to find it was an old fart with a beard approaching. (Stupid place to put a mirror anyway.) Let there be light. rde ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Social-ethical behavior and protocol
Nick says: Women will put up with a fair bit in order to get a dance, whether that be arrogance or mediocrity or sleaze.. Milonga codes were developed over the years for a reason. Codes are not old fashioned capricious inventions; they all exist for an important reason. When you ignore them you are losing 90% of what Argentine Tango is about. The protocol of the invitation to dance exists to make sure that both the man and the woman, have absolute freedom to chose a partner. When a man is a good dancer many women wish to dance with him, they are all going to look in his direction to try to establish eye contact and get a dance with him. This is extremely important because a tango, a real Argentine tango, to be such has to be desired by both, the man and the woman. The milonga is not a place where you go to dance for courtesy, for charity, or out of obligation. When you dance that way, you are not dancing tango you are dancing a sad, pale imitation of the movements of a tango. A tango is full of emotion, there is an intense communication of the souls and of the bodies, there is passion. It is a magical moment. I just went to dance to Cleveland, to a workshop organized by Timmy Tango, given by Alberto Dassieu. We were reminded of how to dance, it did not matter our degree of expertise or skill. We all danced following the milonga codes, followed the socio-ethical protocols and had the most marvelous experience of our lives. Summary: if you obtain dances exerting any degree of pressure, you are not dancing tango. Best regards, Sergio ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Social-ethical behavior and protocol
Sergio said, Milonga codes were developed over the years for a reason. Codes are not old fashioned capricious inventions; they all exist for an important reason. When you ignore them you are losing 90% of what Argentine Tango is about. I have it on good authority from someone who has returned and experienced *many* milongas in BsAs that most portenoes do not use the codes. In fact they approach women as men do so in Australia. And yes, there are sleazes amongst them. The notions of romantic codes have been lost I think upon the modern generation. BTW, it is Niki, not Nick Vince In Melbourne ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] social ethical behavior
Vince, this is so inaccurate! If the porteno is under 30, he probably goes to practicas where anything goes. As a dancer who has lived and taught tango with my milonguero parter in BsAs for many years, let me assure you that the codigos are still respected and observed in all of the traditional milongas. In places like La Viruta, where the idea is to meet someone for extracurricular activities after the milonga and not to dance beautiful tangos, many men are aggressive and assault women at their tables (if they're lucky enough at La Viruta to have a table) by grabbing their arms and taking them to the dance floor. This works particularly well with foreigners and young people who have not learned the codigos. But just try this at a traditional milonga! The guy will be laughed out the door. Cherie http://tangocherie.blogspot.com I have it on good authority from someone who has returned and experienced *many* milongas in BsAs that most portenoes do not use the codes. In fact they approach women as men do so in Australia. And yes, there are sleazes amongst them. The notions of romantic codes have been lost I think upon the modern generation. BTW, it is Niki, not Nick Vince In Melbourne ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] social ethical behavior
You may think of this what you wish, but here's an excerpt of my experience from a recent visit to Bs As dancing at a traditional afternoon milonga (3-10pm). My partner and I always set together and mostly danced with each other. On three occasions (out of four visits to that milonga), men (each older than 60, I estimate) signaled me from a distance to see if it is okay to invite my partner to dance; I affirmed, they then connected with my partner with a cabeceo and danced. On one occasion a young fellow stepped out in front of our table, which was at the edge of the floor so he was standing on the floor with no one else on the floor, and asked my partner to dance - she declined. BTW, my partner and I had an agreement that if she wanted to dance with someone else, she would let me know (sometimes I suggested a good dancer to her as well), and I would facilitate the exchange by giving the gentleman a chance to confer with me first. This all may seem quite anachronistic and chauvinistic but it worked well because it followed the unwritten rules of behavior and eliminated any embarrassment or discomfort. === seek, appreciate, and create beauty this life is not a rehearsal === - Original Message From: macfro...@aol.com macfro...@aol.com To: tango-l@mit.edu Sent: Tue, August 31, 2010 1:40:13 PM Subject: [Tango-L] social ethical behavior Vince, this is so inaccurate! If the porteno is under 30, he probably goes to practicas where anything goes. As a dancer who has lived and taught tango with my milonguero parter in BsAs for many years, let me assure you that the codigos are still respected and observed in all of the traditional milongas. In places like La Viruta, where the idea is to meet someone for extracurricular activities after the milonga and not to dance beautiful tangos, many men are aggressive and assault women at their tables (if they're lucky enough at La Viruta to have a table) by grabbing their arms and taking them to the dance floor. This works particularly well with foreigners and young people who have not learned the codigos. But just try this at a traditional milonga! The guy will be laughed out the door. Cherie http://tangocherie.blogspot.com I have it on good authority from someone who has returned and experienced *many* milongas in BsAs that most portenoes do not use the codes. In fact they approach women as men do so in Australia. And yes, there are sleazes amongst them. The notions of romantic codes have been lost I think upon the modern generation. BTW, it is Niki, not Nick Vince In Melbourne ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] social ethical behavior
I have been to El Arranque a few times, which is a family Milonga. Friends sit together at tables, whether of same gender or not (at least they did at my table, which included my teacher, portena for all her life), and we invited people from our table directly and people sitting elsewhere with the cabaceo. However, I also witnessed people inviting others directly by going to their table. Gordon ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] social ethical behavior
Martin: The reason cabeceo doesn't work well in New York (and other places) is milongas are close to pitch black and women aren't trained to use cabeceo. Even if cabeceo isn't used, it would still be wonderful for the milonga to be illuminated so you could see who is there! Somebody commented at a recent tango festival that women wore great evening gowns, which nobody could see because the lighting was minimal. I've been told the reason for minimal lighting is ambience. When you have a great partner, you create your own ambience. I didn't go to all 1600 milongas when I visited Buenos Aires in April 2009 but at the ones I attended, the lights were up and cabeceo was used. It wasn't as bright as the sun but at least you could see. You're losing out on a lot of dances because you're using cabeceo when nobody else is following the code. I'm not sure there are codes at milongas in North America. Michael Ditkoff I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines - Original Message - From: Nussbaum, Martin mnuss...@law.nyc.gov Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 12:45 PM Subject: [Tango-L] social ethical behavior Ah Niki, come to nyc, where the gender imbalance is in your favor! Entonces, most leaders here are very aggressive in trying to get tandas. Not only will they use verbal invites, but some, pretending to be gallant but really coming off as boorish, will even interrupt your conversations, extending their hand between a man and the woman he is speaking with to get her onto the dance floor. I agree with Sergio re the value of the codigos and I refuse to give up the cabeceo, even if it means I get less dances in NYC. -Martin Nussbaum ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Social-ethical behavior and protocols
Tango-L/[Tango-L] Social-ethical behavior and protocols Bad behavior and misconduct at milongas. Judging from the responses on the Tango-L it is not exclusive to us but I can't really speak for other nationalities. This free interpretation and disregard for the codigos of tango is just another example of why we are perceived as such. Too bad the dancing doesn't rise to the same heights as the arrogance, but then again that shouldn't be a surprise. I have three comments I must share with you friends to answer this accurate Charles' observation: 1)Yes, indeed there is a lot of arrogance here. It is on our culture. In part is because we are a mighty, so vast, rich, and quite egocentric nation. We became the center of the world because the significant roll we played during the WW I and II and many others scientific, cultural, musical political, (to just mention some) contributions . We may often consider other cultures and poor countries of the third world being beneath our standards. It is more. We want to impose our standards on them. We want to copy and adopt the good from other societies and traditions. However, most of the time, since we are immersed in a super-materialistic society, we get only the surface of them, the exterior part of the practice or art. We miss or ignore the essence quite often. Few examples? Yoga, Tai-chi, martial arts, mystical practices or disciplines, and of course: ARGENTINE TANGO. I do not like to generalize but after living here for more than 37 years, I'm convinced of my daring but careful observation. 2)There is another cultural aspect that we must weight here. I observed that a great majority of the people that I met, they were very concern when they have to judge a misbehavior or a wrong conduct. They usually or call the police, they send you to court, they ignore you, they stop calling you, but they never come forward to tell you in your face what is going wrong. This idiosyncrasy can be seen as hypocrisy, lack of sincerity, or fearful lack of cowardly. Therefore, some people do not come forward to condemn a bad behavior at milongas as I did. Their rationale? I prefer to say something positive rather negative; I do not agree to ventilate those things in public. It seems that, with this Pontio Pilato like rationale, the alternate option will be then gossiping and backbiting. In most of the cases when there is something wrong going on, unless they are not suffering directly on their own flesh, they remain quiet and silent when observing injustice, misconduct, and out of the line behaviors, propitiating the continuation of them and even becoming accomplices. All because the fear of risking prestige or anything. 3)After sharing my negative experience with a lady grossly misbehaving at a milonga, some people came forward privately to identify themselves with my legitimate concern, to give support and good advise. However, few people, less than the number of my right hand fingers, had the courage to say something condemning that unacceptable conduct. That washing my hands approach , ignoring my complain and the real facts, recalls a wise quote from a great man: The greatest atrocity of the bad things of the bad people, is the silence of the good people. THE SILENCE OF THE GOOD PEOPLE HORRIFY ME MORE THAN THE ACT OF THE BAD ONES. -Gandhi I lost two or three friends or half-friend after posting my honest concern with courage. However, the misbehaved lady in question is still negating any wrong doing, leading a local tango organization and hosting workshops and milongas, ready misbehave forward again. Clean and strong hugs, Nicetune. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
