Re[7]: IMAP proposal: Away Mode
6/25/2005 6:56 AM Hi Alto, On 6/25/2005 Alto Speckhardt wrote: AM>> IMO, you shouldn't be using IMAP. AS> I have to, for these reasons: AS> - I want seperate folders with the ability of server-side filtering by AS> my provider. AS> - I want to be able to use both a mail client and my provider's AS> web-frontend to access mail. If I used POP, I would constantly have to AS> worry about what mail to delete where. I do not use server-side filtering. I frequently travel to different countries and it has not been an issue. As far as where to delete mail, here is how I manage this using POP: 1. My Desktop is the primary mail manager and is set to delete messages after 7 days and to delete messages when they are removed from the Trash folder. 2. My Notebook is set to delete messages when removed from Trash. 3. I delete unwanted messages through the web interface whenever it is accessed and I'm in the mood. 4. Before leaving with my notebook I copy the primary message folder with all of the subfolders to the notebook and close The Bat! on the desktop machine. 5. Upon returning from a trip, I restart The Bat! on the Desktop and copy the sent messages from the notebook and download the remaining messages from the server. This method using POP has worked well for years. -- Take Care, Paul The Bat! v.3.0.2.10 on Win2k SP4 Current beta is 3.5.31 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re[6]: IMAP proposal: Away Mode
Hi Allie, AM> Interesting what you do there. Isn't the laptop connectable to the AM> Internet? Why don't you connect to the server and do the AM> synchronisation? Of course it is. But until a week ago I was using ISDN dial-up and had no intention of transfering the same data twice. Now though I'm no longer limited to dial-up, I still see no reason why I should do this. If one client can access the mailbase, so can two. The only problem is that it theoretically isn't a mailbase in the first place, but a cache that may differ between two machines. In practice, though, it doesn't, and the things that don't work with this constellation are rather bugs than limitations by technology. Besides, I have local folders that I want to share, too. Here I know of no way to transfer them in another way since they are not on any external mailserver but my private network. AM> I'm wondering if the cache files have the appropriate names. Why wouldn't they? AM> The essence of IMAP is not having to do what you're doing. You can AM> have the same thing happening on multiple machines without having AM> to copy from one to the other. Provided each of the machines has a permanent connection to the IMAP-Server, which is only true if you don't move the client. Otherwise, as with my laptop, there are always times without connection, be it disconnected from my private network in my case or disconnected from the Internet as in your case. To make no provisions for this case is neglegent at the least and most definitly impractical. AM> Deleting deleted is the same as compressing/expunging. Of course. A short blackout. ;-) >> I'm using v3.02 (productive) [...] AM> That's a pretty early version there. TB!'s IMAP has undergone a lot of AM> changes since. I actually am using it now, when I just didn't use it AM> then. v3.5 and on has so many deficiencies that I'm definitly not going to transfer it into productive use in its current state. That's absolutly out of the question. The missing of the auto-width-option for the "browse-messages"-window alone disqualifies it. For the life of me I can't understand why a perfectly good, working option was just taken out, apparently without replacement. Funny that the result was then called an improvement of the GUI. AM> IMO, you shouldn't be using IMAP. I have to, for these reasons: - I want seperate folders with the ability of server-side filtering by my provider. - I want to be able to use both a mail client and my provider's web-frontend to access mail. If I used POP, I would constantly have to worry about what mail to delete where. AM> IMAP is about relying on an open connection. But it is not limited to this use. Mulberry proves it. AM> The disconnect mode should be for exceptional circumstances and AM> not a routine. Says who? I think it can perfectly be handled and give the use the best of both worlds. It's only TheBat that can't quite cope. May I dare to say "yet"? -- MfG, Altomailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] pgpu4xWXfpPVX.pgp Description: PGP signature Current beta is 3.5.31 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: IMAP proposal: Away Mode
Hello Allie, On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 at 09:38 you reply to Alto: > On Friday, June 24, 2005, at 09:16 AM, Alto Speckhardt > wrote: >> Copying the cache files from my home machine onto the laptop via >> "Windows Offline Folder". > Interesting what you do there. Isn't the laptop connectable to the > Internet? Why don't you connect to the server and do the > synchronisation? I choose to have my own IMAP server (Hamster) ... >> I'm accustomed to "polling" since I started FidoNet. POP3 worked in >> this mode as well, and I see no benefit from another mode. I do not >> like to rely on an open connection, I want to have needed data locally >> and just sync it on demand. I only use IMAP instead of POP3 because I >> can have seperate folders there. And nourish it from time to time through nearly 20 pop3 account and a simple script. The server is at home on my 'big old BBS computer', connected to an access point. My children have wireless towers with IMAP clients, my wife and some friends, brothers ... a wireless laptop. They use it at home or outside through vpn, I also manage for them few mailing-lists (with less than 100 members each [friends, family, business, ...]). As I am often on the road, I do the same with The Bat! and IMAP. > IMO, you shouldn't be using IMAP. IMAP is about relying on an open > connection. The disconnect mode should be for exceptional > circumstances and not a routine. Routine disconnect operations are > best dealt with using POP3. It work also even if you're mostly disconnected ;) Hamster take more than 4Go (50 .msg files) on the disk, TBbeta count is : 53496 files. -- Regards, Alain(ex 2:321/6) :aggy: :flag-france: The Bat! 3.5.30 Current beta is 3.5.31 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re[5]: IMAP proposal: Away Mode
On Friday, June 24, 2005, at 09:16 AM, Alto Speckhardt wrote: > Copying the cache files from my home machine onto the laptop via > "Windows Offline Folder". This is usually done by WLAN and thus not > very fast, therefore I have considerable interest in keeping the > files as small as possible. Interesting what you do there. Isn't the laptop connectable to the Internet? Why don't you connect to the server and do the synchronisation? I'm wondering if the cache files have the appropriate names. You're doing something there that's pretty unusual for any IMAP user. The essence of IMAP is not having to do what you're doing. You can have the same thing happening on multiple machines without having to copy from one to the other. Anyway, you can enjoy yourself with it. > You're obviously right, because that's exactly what happens. But to my > understanding it shouldn't: Why can my commands (deleteDeleted, > deleteDuplicates, compress) not be executed on the cache while > disconnected and be queued for execution on the server as soon as the > machine is re-connected? I was hoping I could assist, but I see that I'm not. > Can I "DeleteDeleted" somewhere else than in "Maintenance"? Deleting deleted is the same as compressing/expunging. > I'm using v3.02 (productive), where the bug about the non-closing CC > doesn't take place. The CC closes, and the log-line (status line of > TheBat main window) states something like "IMAP connection finished". That's a pretty early version there. TB!'s IMAP has undergone a lot of changes since. I actually am using it now, when I just didn't use it then. > I'm accustomed to "polling" since I started FidoNet. POP3 worked in > this mode as well, and I see no benefit from another mode. I do not > like to rely on an open connection, I want to have needed data locally > and just sync it on demand. I only use IMAP instead of POP3 because I > can have seperate folders there. IMO, you shouldn't be using IMAP. IMAP is about relying on an open connection. The disconnect mode should be for exceptional circumstances and not a routine. Routine disconnect operations are best dealt with using POP3. -- -= Allie M.=- Using TB! v3.5.30 System Specs: http://www.landscreek.net/sysspecs.htm =-=-= ...People are always available for work in the past tense. Current beta is 3.5.30 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re[4]: IMAP proposal: Away Mode
Hi Allie, >> For one, I may not even notice that I erase the cache. For example, I >> often want to compress the files of my local mailbase to save time >> when synchronizing with my laptop. AM> How will that save time? What synchronizing are you referring to? Copying the cache files from my home machine onto the laptop via "Windows Offline Folder". This is usually done by WLAN and thus not very fast, therefore I have considerable interest in keeping the files as small as possible. AM> Urmph! All I read are bad testimonials about the Maintenance center. AM> When I right click a folder and select compress. All my messages don't AM> disappear. I have selected the option "compress folders on exit". On every exit a window comes up with a progress bar doing something on the folders, yet the folder files don't shrink at all. The same is true when selecting Compress from the context menu as you suggest. AM> Additionally, I'd suggest not to compress unless you're connected with AM> the IMAP server. Your cache reflects what's on the server. When you AM> compress locally, you're basically compressing what's on the server, AM> i.e., deleting messages flagged for deletion. If you do so while AM> disconnected, it will not work and just lead to buggy behaviour like AM> your entire cache being wiped. You're obviously right, because that's exactly what happens. But to my understanding it shouldn't: Why can my commands (deleteDeleted, deleteDuplicates, compress) not be executed on the cache while disconnected and be queued for execution on the server as soon as the machine is re-connected? Besides, even if connected, every time I run a compress I have to again sync my whole mailbase afterwards. That's no fun either. >> Second, even if I do nothing that could endanger the cache, I >> freuqently end up with not being able to view messages anyway. AM> .. and you're sure that these messages you cannot view are messages you AM> had viewed while connected. Yes: Sometimes I see a message coming in, read it and think "uh, I'm going to reply to this one right after I took my seat on the train." I leave the house, enter the train, power up the laptop and - "No message loaded". AM> In TB!, the cache isn't deleted unless you do so the right way or AM> through using a buggy maintenance center while disconnected. Can I "DeleteDeleted" somewhere else than in "Maintenance"? AM> At the moment you can use it, but only for viewing. No, not only that: I can also write and reply. If I try to move a mail between folders, it seems to work but there will be a hanging task in the CC when reconnected later. AM> AFAIK, TB! doesn't support disconnect mode operations that are AM> later propagated on the server when you next connect. RIT can AM> correct me on this if I'm wrong. Exactly. And I'm proposing adding this, while being on the matter. :-) AM> Open 'Manage IMAP folders'. What synchronisation mode option is AM> selected for your IMAP mailboxes? The list says "All messages", the dropdown-box calls it "Full messages". AM> One wonders whether or not the full synchronisation actually runs AM> to completion. You seem to be assuming that the cache has been AM> built and then you lose it afterwards. I'm wondering if the cache AM> was not fully built in the first place. I'm using v3.02 (productive), where the bug about the non-closing CC doesn't take place. The CC closes, and the log-line (status line of TheBat main window) states something like "IMAP connection finished". AM> You need to try Mulberry and see what a full sync is like. I know, I have. It is what I need. I'm accustomed to "polling" since I started FidoNet. POP3 worked in this mode as well, and I see no benefit from another mode. I do not like to rely on an open connection, I want to have needed data locally and just sync it on demand. I only use IMAP instead of POP3 because I can have seperate folders there. AM> Did the full synchronisation operation fully complete before you undock? AM> TB!'s disconnecting from the server doesn't mean that it has happened AM> either. TB! tends to disconnect anyway for various reasons, some of them AM> inexplicable to me. This hasn't happened with v3.02 too much. After sync-ing the home machine with the Server I can immediatly view any message. (Well, not always, but that's another issue.) When I close and reopen TheBat, it can happen that some messages I had viewed in "disconnected mode" not thirty seconds earlier show up as "no message loaded". The same, of course, can happen on my laptop. AM> Anyway, you're stretching the abilities and limits of IMAP with what AM> you're doing. In my experience, TB!'s IMAP isn't robust enough for that AM> sort of stuff. You're bound to run into trouble unless you're really AM> careful, forgiving, and have a little know how. Tell me about it. But wouldn't this be an oportunity to change that, instead of re-implementing it wrong again? (First time being the POP-format unsuited for IM
Re[3]: IMAP proposal: Away Mode
On Friday, June 24, 2005 at 6:36:05 AM [GMT -0500], Alto Speckhardt wrote: > You're right, I did misunderstand. When you spoke of the message list, > I understood "messages". My apologies. Not a problem. :) > For one, I may not even notice that I erase the cache. For example, I > often want to compress the files of my local mailbase to save time > when synchronizing with my laptop. How will that save time? What synchronizing are you referring to? If you're referring to synchronizing with your IMAP server, I don't see how that compressing will save time. > To do this, I select Maintenance/DeleteDeleted. Theoretically, this > should "repack" the folder files fazing out the deleted mails, while > leaving everything else intact, right? Wrong. After this, the complete > cache is gone. Urmph! All I read are bad testimonials about the Maintenance center. When I right click a folder and select compress. All my messages don't disappear. Additionally, I'd suggest not to compress unless you're connected with the IMAP server. Your cache reflects what's on the server. When you compress locally, you're basically compressing what's on the server, i.e., deleting messages flagged for deletion. If you do so while disconnected, it will not work and just lead to buggy behaviour like your entire cache being wiped. > Second, even if I do nothing that could endanger the cache, I > freuqently end up with not being able to view messages anyway. .. and you're sure that these messages you cannot view are messages you had viewed while connected. > Shall I try to recount the times when I needed a message abroad and > got a "no message loaded" instead? > In my view this is a result of the cache not being meant as a > mailbase, but indeed as a cache whose contents are non-critical and > can be refreshed any time. Without disconnect mode enabled in Mulberry, this is exactly how the cache is treated. In TB!, the cache isn't deleted unless you do so the right way or through using a buggy maintenance center while disconnected. > That's why I wanted to bring this matter up now, when a basic redesign > of the IMAP- (and, I suppose, cache-) handling is taking place: To > change the flavour from "might possibly be used also" into "if you're > disconnected, use it". At the moment you can use it, but only for viewing. AFAIK, TB! doesn't support disconnect mode operations that are later propagated on the server when you next connect. RIT can correct me on this if I'm wrong. > This would mean more prudent handling of the cache, e.g. not dropping > it without being directed explicitly by the user and doing a full sync > with every bit there is when instructed to. I'm wondering if you're correctly instructing it to. Open 'Manage IMAP folders'. What synchronisation mode option is selected for your IMAP mailboxes? AM>> Note that only those messages you've viewed are cached. The bodies AM>> of unviewed messages are not in the cache since you didn't request AM>> them for viewing. > But I executed "Sync all folders, mode: complete". That should give me > everything, whether previously viewed or not. Are you using 'Full messages' as synchronisation mode and you select 'Sync all folders' then everything should synchronise. One wonders whether or not the full synchronisation actually runs to completion. You seem to be assuming that the cache has been built and then you lose it afterwards. I'm wondering if the cache was not fully built in the first place. I just don't lose cached stuff here unless I do something. > I don't see another way if I want to be able to take everything with > me on my laptop. Besides, why should it be a problem with volume? If I > get a message, I will most certainly want to read it at some time, so > what is the difference between retrieving everything at once now > versus retrieving every message seperatly later on? You need to try Mulberry and see what a full sync is like. It takes a while for it to happen. You're locked from user input while it's happening too. Mulberry becomes impractical to use. It was not meant to be usually used in that way. You synchronise when getting ready for a disconnected use environment. Did the full synchronisation operation fully complete before you undock? TB!'s disconnecting from the server doesn't mean that it has happened either. TB! tends to disconnect anyway for various reasons, some of them inexplicable to me. Anyway, you're stretching the abilities and limits of IMAP with what you're doing. In my experience, TB!'s IMAP isn't robust enough for that sort of stuff. You're bound to run into trouble unless you're really careful, forgiving, and have a little know how. Me? I usually just fire up Mulberry instead. -- -= Allie Martin =- The Bat! v3.5.30 System Specs: http://www.ac-martin.com/sysspecs.htm -=-=- Reality is nothing but a collective hunch. Current beta is 3.5.30 | 'Using TBBETA' informatio
Re[2]: IMAP proposal: Away Mode
Hi Allie, AM> I was referring to the message list and TB!. For you to read a single AM> message in an IMAP mailbox using TB!, TB! has to first propagate and AM> cache the full message list locally. That's not too unusual BTW. AM> ThunderBird does the same thing. You're right, I did misunderstand. When you spoke of the message list, I understood "messages". My apologies. But whatever: AM> - You read messages. As you read messages, whatever you are able to read AM> is cached locally. So all messages that you've read are cached locally. AM> They remain cached locally unless you delete the cache. Technically, this may be correct from where I stand. Still, it is not really satisfying: For one, I may not even notice that I erase the cache. For example, I often want to compress the files of my local mailbase to save time when synchronizing with my laptop. To do this, I select Maintenance/DeleteDeleted. Theoretically, this should "repack" the folder files fazing out the deleted mails, while leaving everything else intact, right? Wrong. After this, the complete cache is gone. Second, even if I do nothing that could endanger the cache, I freuqently end up with not being able to view messages anyway. Shall I try to recount the times when I needed a message abroad and got a "no message loaded" instead? In my view this is a result of the cache not being meant as a mailbase, but indeed as a cache whose contents are non-critical and can be refreshed any time. As a matter of fact I'd be using the cache in a way it was not meant to be used. That's why I wanted to bring this matter up now, when a basic redesign of the IMAP- (and, I suppose, cache-) handling is taking place: To change the flavour from "might possibly be used also" into "if you're disconnected, use it". This would mean more prudent handling of the cache, e.g. not dropping it without being directed explicitly by the user and doing a full sync with every bit there is when instructed to. AM> Note that only those messages you've viewed are cached. The bodies AM> of unviewed messages are not in the cache since you didn't request AM> them for viewing. But I executed "Sync all folders, mode: complete". That should give me everything, whether previously viewed or not. AM> So you're using the full-synchronisation option for your IMAP AM> mailboxes? Yes. AM> If so, then with this mode, TB! will retrieve message AM> bodies even though you haven't requested them for viewing. AM> However, this sort of synchronisation is bandwidth intensive and AM> can bog down your connection unless you have a low traffic IMAP AM> account with not many messages. I don't see another way if I want to be able to take everything with me on my laptop. Besides, why should it be a problem with volume? If I get a message, I will most certainly want to read it at some time, so what is the difference between retrieving everything at once now versus retrieving every message seperatly later on? AM> Note too that I've never tried working with TB! IMAP is disconnect AM> mode and I doubt very much that it would work as it should Your doubt is very much justified as I can testify from my experience, having used this constellation for some time. ;-) AM> provided that all you're doing is reading mail while disconnected. AM> If it did, then importing messages to TB! would work right. Reading, replying, deleting, moving... Everything I do while connected, except that the server is only synchronized (written messages sent, deletions performed on the server etc.) when I get back home. AM> Mulberry supports working in disconnect mode. What happens in such a AM> mode is that you're offered to synchronise your folders prior AM> disconnecting. Once disconnected, the cache is retained and you can go AM> ahead and work with what you have cached. Your changes are stored and AM> upon your next connection, Mulberry updates the server to reflect all AM> that you had done while disconnected. That's exactly what I'm leading to. Such a mode is not available in TheBat, it is just "somhow there anyway" - thus bearing problems, such as retaining of the cache in certain situations. For various reasons, most importantly the "away issue", I need that mode and I would be very happy to see it "officially" provided by TheBat. -- MfG, Altomailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] pgpOGUA6OqH8W.pgp Description: PGP signature Current beta is 3.5.30 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: IMAP proposal: Away Mode
On Friday, June 24, 2005 at 5:30:12 AM [GMT -0500], Alto Speckhardt wrote: > Allie reported in a recent message that one problem of TheBat/IMAP vs. > other programs like Mulberry is that TheBat is always caching a > message locally before displaying it, which other programs do not. I did not say this. :) I think you misunderstood. All IMAP clients cache what they display. I don't know any that don't do this. Internet browsers cache what they display too. It's just how the cache is managed between restarts that may differ between clients. I was referring to the message list and TB!. For you to read a single message in an IMAP mailbox using TB!, TB! has to first propagate and cache the full message list locally. That's not too unusual BTW. ThunderBird does the same thing. So here's the sequence when you don't have full message synchronisation enabled: - You select an IMAP mailbox and TB! updates the message list to show exactly what's currently on the server. When you're finished browsing and exit TB!, the list as was last sync'd with the server remains in the cache and you'll be able to use it when undocked. - You read messages. As you read messages, whatever you are able to read is cached locally. So all messages that you've read are cached locally. They remain cached locally unless you delete the cache. Note that only those messages you've viewed are cached. The bodies of unviewed messages are not in the cache since you didn't request them for viewing. > I'm using a laptop that is being synchronized (Windows Offline-Folder) > when "docked" at home. Synchronizing includes the full TheBat message > base to enable me to handle email even when abroad. So you're using the full-synchronisation option for your IMAP mailboxes? If so, then with this mode, TB! will retrieve message bodies even though you haven't requested them for viewing. However, this sort of synchronisation is bandwidth intensive and can bog down your connection unless you have a low traffic IMAP account with not many messages. > With POP3 this was no problem at all, because there was a "what's > there is there" philosophy. Whith IMAP I have to be extremly careful > what I do because being able to read a received email while docked > does not mean that it will be possible to view that same email when > undocked. Once you've read a message docked, you'll be able to read the same message while undocked. If you wish to read messages undocked/disconnected that you *did not* read while docked/connected, then you would have had to do a full synchronisation operation prior to disconnecting/undocking. > The "sync policy" TheBat uses with IMAP folders also is somewhat > inconsistant, e.g. if you Maintenance/Compress your folders to purge > semi-deleted messages all your cache of the other mails is gone, too. > There are other occasions when the email you read while connected > isn't there anymore when disconnected. Hmmm. I don't experience this, which of course, doesn't mean that you're not. :) That's the nature of TB! IMAP now. The user experiences can be so different. Note too that I've never tried working with TB! IMAP is disconnect mode and I doubt very much that it would work as it should provided that all you're doing is reading mail while disconnected. If it did, then importing messages to TB! would work right. Mulberry supports working in disconnect mode. What happens in such a mode is that you're offered to synchronise your folders prior disconnecting. Once disconnected, the cache is retained and you can go ahead and work with what you have cached. Your changes are stored and upon your next connection, Mulberry updates the server to reflect all that you had done while disconnected. -- -= Allie Martin =- The Bat! v3.5.30 System Specs: http://www.ac-martin.com/sysspecs.htm -=-=- Disinformation is not as good as datinformation. Current beta is 3.5.30 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
IMAP proposal: Away Mode
Hi all, since RIT stated that they were working on the basics of IMAP implementation I wish to inject one thought: Allie reported in a recent message that one problem of TheBat/IMAP vs. other programs like Mulberry is that TheBat is always caching a message locally before displaying it, which other programs do not. This of course leads to an aspect that has not even been touched yet: I'm using a laptop that is being synchronized (Windows Offline-Folder) when "docked" at home. Synchronizing includes the full TheBat message base to enable me to handle email even when abroad. With POP3 this was no problem at all, because there was a "what's there is there" philosophy. Whith IMAP I have to be extremly careful what I do because being able to read a received email while docked does not mean that it will be possible to view that same email when undocked. The "sync policy" TheBat uses with IMAP folders also is somewhat inconsistant, e.g. if you Maintenance/Compress your folders to purge semi-deleted messages all your cache of the other mails is gone, too. There are other occasions when the email you read while connected isn't there anymore when disconnected. I'm asking for a complete, intended (not just "working in most cases anyhow" like it is now) "Away Mode" with full synchronization on demand, where nothing of the cache will be dropped without TheBat being specifically directed to. What are other's thoughts about such a feature? -- MfG, Alto mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] pgpx7ZaQrFnN4.pgp Description: PGP signature Current beta is 3.5.30 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
