Re[3]: the User Interface (was: Re: RFC 2369 List-* kludges)

[Norbert Luckhardt]

hiyall,

> problem: the menu entry is not available (not only greyed out, but
> really not there at all)

I forgot to learn, that this is no longer true for the actual
version ;-) nowadays it's greyed-out like it should be...

-- 
kind regards, Shalom
NOrbert
using TB 1.60q


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Re[2]: the User Interface (was: Re: RFC 2369 List-* kludges)

[Norbert Luckhardt]

hiyall,

> I made that question because I did not find a reference of the
> feature in the helpfile, non in the user interface.

I agree to this: the GUI is not the problem - the docs are...

we have already been given some help for the GUI: the menu navigator
helps finding seldomly used or illogically placed entries (I prefer to
search sometimes than having re-designed the whole interface so that I
would have to re-learn the whole thing!), more over You now are able
to place Your own keyboard short-cuts to use any menu You like...

I strongly dislike self-changing menus and icon panels! [AFAIU this
was on the wish list of Krzysztof who started the thread]

a menu itself is a help to see all the abilities of a program
(especially with 'delayed' docs/help files) ... I had some real hard
minutes when I tried to send out a 'mass' mailing for the first time:
I intended to figure out how to do this and naturally had no single QT
for mass mailings yet - problem: the menu entry is not available (not
only greyed out, but really not there at all), until You have at least
a single 'mass-mailing-suitable' QT :-(

-- 
kind regards, Shalom
NOrbert
using TB 1.60q


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Re: the User Interface (was: Re: RFC 2369 List-* kludges)

[Krzysztof Trybowski]

Hello Luigi,
On Monday, June 24, 2002 you wrote:

> I made that question because I did not find a reference of the feature in the
> helpfile, non in the user interface.

OK,  the  documentation  is  the  other  case.  It's not updated often
enough.

> I _hate_ M$ that hides the feature of its programs in the Registry file and
> you have to browse the knowledge base to find them.

I  hate  that  too. But it's not done only by microsoft. It's a common
practice.  Look  at mozilla for example. Anyway -- I'm not saying that
RIT  should  do  such thing. Actually I'm saying quite the opposite --
that  some  functions  are  hidden  in  the  menu  tree,  making  them
troublesome to use.

> Mybe a restyling should be considered, but PLEASE non fancy buttons or other
> Disney-style interface.

Still context buttons and more customization would help.

> A better documentation is worth tons of fancy buttons.

I'm  not  sure  if  we  understand  each  other -- that do you mean by
"fancy"  buttons?  I  didn't  write  about how the buttons should look
like,  I  wrote  about  the  necessity  of  their  existence, of their
appearing   depending   on   the   context,   the  necessity  of  more
customization  of the interface, like to build the main program window
from  a  dock-able  windows,  so  that you can re-arrange them how you
like.

Regards,

-- 
 / Krzysztof Trybowski  pgp 0xF8C68208 /--/  To get my pgp key, put  /
/ www.thebat.i.krakow.pl  uin 4350719 /--/  "send_key" in subject.  /_

Using The Bat! 1.60q [reg] under Windows 2000 5.0 build 2195.


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Re: the User Interface (was: Re: RFC 2369 List-* kludges)

[Luigi Rosa]

Hello Krzysztof,
Monday, June 24, 2002, 11:08:51 AM, you wrote:

KT> Major  drawback  is:  we  have functions but it's hard to access them.

I was the one who made the question.  :-)
I made that question because I did not find a reference of the feature in the
helpfile, non in the user interface.

I _hate_ M$ that hides the feature of its programs in the Registry file and
you have to browse the knowledge base to find them.

Mybe a restyling should be considered, but PLEASE non fancy buttons or other
Disney-style interface.

A better documentation is worth tons of fancy buttons.




Ciao,
Luigi

Using The Bat! v1.60q on Windows 2000
5.0 Build 2195
Service Pack 2

-- 
 Luigi  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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the User Interface (was: Re: RFC 2369 List-* kludges)

[Krzysztof Trybowski]

Hello Marck,
On Wednesday, June 12, 2002 you wrote:

>> will the next versions of TB support the RFC-2369 List-* kludges of
>> the mailing lists?

> Yes - just as *this* version already does! (see "Sepcials | Mailing
> list").

This  clearly indicates one thing, I was thinking for a long time. For
a successful program it isn't enough to have powerful features, strong
abilities  or  good standard support. There is also one very important
factor  --  the  user interface. You may wonder why many people use MS
products,  despite  the  fact  that  they  are  not  powerful, clumsy,
unstable.  It's the interface -- they are easy to use, colorful enough
to  make  nice  impression, but also not too colorful and clear enough
not  to  be  unreadable.  In my opinion Ritlabs should find someone to
redesign  and  modernize  the interface. Not a programmer. Not a guru.
Someone  whose  job  is  to  design interfaces for ordinary users, who
knows  about users behaviors, who studies their habits. This is a good
challenge for version 2.0!

Major  drawback  is:  we  have functions but it's hard to access them.
OTOH  the  menus are too complex and sometimes placed illogically. The
right-click  user  menu  is too complex too. Some features, especially
the  ones  closely bound with messages (like adding a memo, performing
the  actions  based  on  list-*  kludges,  creating filters, crypting,
decrypting,  signing  and  perhaps some others) should have icons that
would appear when applicable. Sort of "context" buttons.

For  example:  when  a  message  is a message from a mailing list (has
appropriate headers), there should appear icons for performing actions
connected with a mailing list.

Here  should  be  an icon to easily add a memo to a message, and there
should be an indication that a message has a memo added (yes, I know I
can add it to message list, but in that form it take too much space!).
There  should  be possibility to dock the memo window somewhere on the
screen  -- but it would appear only when there is a memo attached to a
message. There is a lot of space for that on a "message header" place,
below the list of messages.

The  idea taken from Outlook: to dock a window with favourite contacts
from  addressbook.  A very user-friendly feature, especially for those
who  often  write  to  the  same people. And again: yes, I know that I
could  use  an  arrow next to new mail button, but not everybody knows
that,   you  cannot  use  drag  and  drop  there,  you  cannot  modify
information from there. If it was in a docked window, I could have.

Look  at  view/display  --  useful  features.  The  ones accessible by
alt-click are used by me very often, but using advanced filtering, and
filling  in  all  the criteria is too troublesome, especially that you
fill  them  only  for  one  usage.  This  time  for a solution look at
Gravity:  you  name  a  filter set and the you can quickly activate it
many times. *Extremely* useful. Of course activation could be in menu,
but  there  should  also  be a small toolbar with this so that I could
have it handy.

For  features that are sophisticated enough to stay only in menus, the
icons  by  menu entries would make navigation easier (as well as icons
in context menu).

With all these and many more improvements there wouldn't be situations
like this:

Ricardo M. Reyes
RMR> I'm  sorry,  you  are  absolutely  right.  I  was  looking in the
RMR> 'Specials'  submenu in the pop-up menu (the one you open with the
RMR> right  button  of  the mouse) and not in the 'Specials' option of
RMR> the main menu.

The   user   got  confused by too complex and non-intuitive interface.
Why  having  a  powerful  program,  when  you  need  to search for the
features for ages?

In  the end I'd advise people interested in this matter to look at the
TopStyle  program  and  its  interface. Very configurable, and nice to
work  with.  The  same  I could say about ACDSee 3 interface. Dockable
widows, configurable interface.

What do you think?

-- 
 / Krzysztof Trybowski  pgp 0xF8C68208 /--/  To get my pgp key, put  /
/ www.thebat.i.krakow.pl  uin 4350719 /--/  "send_key" in subject.  /_

Using The Bat! 1.60q [reg] under Windows 2000 5.0 build 2195.


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Re: RFC 2369 List-* kludges

[Peter Palmreuther]

Hello Ricardo,

On Wednesday, June 12, 2002 at 9:37:18 PM you wrote in
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (at least in part):

JS  Try Specials->Mailing List

LR>>> It's always greyed-out...

PP>> If you're reading this mail and open the above mentioned menu 'Get help'
PP>> and 'Unsubscribe' should be active.

RMR> I don't see it neither. In what version did it appear first?

Long before 1.60c ... some 1.54/Beta ...

Are you _absolutely sure_ there's no intermediate MTA or MTA-like software
filtering these header out??

Have a look at _this_ messages source ... There _have to be_ headers named:

List-help: 
List-unsubscribe: 

If not: there IS a filtering instance!
-- 
Regards
Peter Palmreuthermailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(The Bat! v1.60q on Windows 2000 5.0 Build 2195 Service Pack 2)

You don't sew with a fork, so I see no reason to eat with knitting needles.


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Re: RFC 2369 List-* kludges

[Marck D Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi Britt,

@12 June 2002, 17:12:52 +0200 (16:12 UK time) Britt Malka wrote in
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

MDP>> Only when the supported headers are absent.

> The supported headers, are those the headers mentioned in
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]">mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ?

> Or could you please mention the headers?

The headers that TB supports are these:

List-Help:
List-Post:
List-Subscribe:
List-Unsubscribe:
List-Archive:
List-Owner:

> Is there any other means than X-Ray to make the necessary cludges?

Yes - they are normally provided by the list server.

- - --
Cheers -- .\\arck D. Pearlstone -- List moderator
TB! v1.60q-5523848F0B1 on Windows 2000 5.0.2195 Service Pack 2
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Re: RFC 2369 List-* kludges

[Marck D Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi Luigi,

@12 June 2002, 16:44:34 +0200 (15:44 UK time) Luigi Rosa wrote in
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

JS>>  Try Specials->Mailing List

> It's always greyed-out...

Only when the supported headers are absent.

> If I search "mailing list" on the help it takes me to the TB! Mail
> Liste SERVER management.

These elements are undocumented.

- --
Cheers -- .\\arck D. Pearlstone -- List moderator
TB! v1.60q-5523848F0B1 on Windows 2000 5.0.2195 Service Pack 2
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Re: RFC 2369 List-* kludges

[Marck D Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi Luigi,

@12 June 2002, 16:31:32 +0200 (15:31 UK time) Luigi Rosa wrote in
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

>   will the next versions of TB support the RFC-2369 List-* kludges of the
> mailing lists?

Yes - just as *this* version already does! (see "Sepcials | Mailing
list").

> I mean this kludges:

> List-Id: name-of-the-list 
> List-Post: 
> List-Subscribe: 
> List-Unsubscribe: 
> List-Archive: 
> List-Help: 

Not all of these may work but many do. Have a look!

- --
Cheers -- .\\arck D. Pearlstone -- List moderator
TB! v1.60q-5523848F0B1 on Windows 2000 5.0.2195 Service Pack 2
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Re: RFC 2369 List-* kludges

[Peter Palmreuther]

Hello Luigi,

On Wednesday, June 12, 2002 at 4:44:34 PM you wrote in
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (at least in part):

JS>>  Try Specials->Mailing List

LR> It's always greyed-out...

If you're reading this mail and open the above mentioned menu 'Get help'
and 'Unsubscribe' should be active.
If not ... there seems to be something filtering headers _at your side_.
-- 
Regards
Peter Palmreuthermailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(The Bat! v1.60q on Windows 2000 5.0 Build 2195 Service Pack 2)

I tried to contain myself, but I escaped...


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Re: RFC 2369 List-* kludges

[Jernej Simončič]

Hello Luigi,

12. junij 2002, 16:31:32, you wrote:

LR>   will the next versions of TB support the RFC-2369 List-* kludges of the
LR> mailing lists?

 Try Specials->Mailing List

-- 
Jernej Simoncic, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www2.arnes.si/~sopjsimo/
ICQ: 26266467

[The Bat! v1.60d on Windows 2000 5.0.2195.Service Pack 2]

The light at the end of the tunnel is the headlamp of an oncoming
train.
   -- Lyndons principal


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