Original Message Date and time query

[Ali Martin]

Hi all,
 
 Isn't the macro for the original message date and time be taken from
 the Kludges of the message sent ad verbatim? Why is the time
 converted to my time zone when I'm replying. Wouldn't the recipient
 prefer the time as he/she sent it?
  
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 * Ali Martin  mailto: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
   
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Re: Original Message Date and time query

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 23 Nov 99, at 18:41, Ali Martin wrote
about "Original Message Date and time quer":

>  Isn't the macro for the original message date and time be taken from
>  the Kludges of the message sent ad verbatim? Why is the time
>  converted to my time zone when I'm replying. Wouldn't the recipient
>  prefer the time as he/she sent it?

Because this is a bug/shortcoming, repeating how Outlook 
works *verbatim*. It's the thing I *hate* about Outlook as much 
as you only can imagine... Subject to formal bug report, I 
presume.

For comparison, look above how Pegasus handled this task. 
Note, that the message I'm currently replying to was displayed 
in my folder as of 12 Nov 1999, 2:41 AM (i.e. my local time)...

This reminds me of another TB's peculiarity... AFAIR, a bit ago 
some of our American friends told us that TB doesn't recognize 
the three-letter abbreviations for timezones (still) used in USA 
(like EDT -- is there such?:-)) If this is still the case, you're 
welcome to write another bug report, since RFC822 clearly 
states that such abbreviations *have* to be delt with correctly.


SY, Alex
(St.Petersburg, Russia)
-- 
Thought for the day:
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Re: Original Message Date and time query

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hi Ali,

on Wednesday, November 24, 1999, 7:41:17 AM GMT+0800, Ali Martin wrote:
 
AM>  Isn't the macro for the original message date and time be taken from
AM>  the Kludges of the message sent ad verbatim? Why is the time
AM>  converted to my time zone when I'm replying. Wouldn't the recipient
AM>  prefer the time as he/she sent it?
  
I would prefer it to always be in GMT (as pine does it), but I have
seen from my colleagues that the lcoal time is more appreciated by the
average user. I think we discussed this on this list about last month
or so. The result was the suggestion to add "GMT+" hours to the
Reply Template (see above). I was hoping that TB, which adds/subtracts
the  figure according to your local computer setting and thus
finds the local time, could automatize this as well.

Here is a suggestion: Add a %GMT macro, which would should the
difference between your local time zone and GMT.

-- 

Best regards,
Thomas.  

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.38 Beta/3
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998  
on a Pentium II/350 MHz.



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Re: Original Message Date and time query

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 24 Nov 99, at 11:50, Thomas Fernandez wrote
about "Re: Original Message Date and time ":

> I would prefer it to always be in GMT (as pine does it), but I have
> seen from my colleagues that the lcoal time is more appreciated by the
> average user. 

And I'll explain you why...

Suppose I worked hard all day teaching students, then returned 
back home and composed a couple of message to a mailing list 
(about 5-00PM my local time). Then suppose some American 
like Steve Lamb (just for example) decided to reply to these. His 
message will then start with:

., 1-00 PM, Alexander V. Kiselev wrote

And suppose the head of our staff is the member of the same 
mailing list

Now what would he think about this Alexander V. Kiselev, who 
was supposed to teach students of the 4th course from 11-
00AM till 2-45 PM?:-)))

> I think we discussed this on this list about last month or so.
> The result was the suggestion to add "GMT+" hours to the
> Reply Template (see above). 

Yup, this is a workaround of course, but this doesn't solve the 
problem itself I'd say.

> Here is a suggestion: Add a %GMT macro, which would should the
> difference between your local time zone and GMT.

Better add a %LTIME macro that would default to the local time 
(this is how the %OTIME works currently), and modify the 
%OTIME macro to show the time as it was stated in the 
message headers, *without* the timezone correction.


SY, Alex
(St.Petersburg, Russia)
-- 
Thought for the day:
  If Windows sucked it would be good for something.

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A677 81C9 48CF 16D1 B589  9D33 E7D5 675F 2141 35A2 (DH/DSS) 
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Re: Original Message Date and time query

[Ali Martin]

   Alexander V. Kiselev wrote:

> And I'll explain you why...


> Now what would he think about this Alexander V. Kiselev, who 
> was supposed to teach students of the 4th course from 11-
> 00AM till 2-45 PM?:-)))

 That's a nice example.

I do feel ridiculous sending messages at my local time without
sticking in the GMT. Asking the recipient to make the necessary
calculations is a tad unreasonable as well. They should just see the
time as their local time.

>> Here is a suggestion: Add a %GMT macro, which would should the
>> difference between your local time zone and GMT.

> Better add a %LTIME macro that would default to the local time 
> (this is how the %OTIME works currently), and modify the 
> %OTIME macro to show the time as it was stated in the 
> message headers, *without* the timezone correction.

Agreed completely.

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 * Ali Martin  mailto: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
   
  ** I want my data back, machine, and I want it now!
  
   *** Using The Bat! v1.38 Beta/3 [-] Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 6)  

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Re: Original Message Date and time query

[Ali Martin]

   Thomas Fernandez wrote:

> Agree; better than my suggestion. Still it should show the time zone,
> in order to avoid confusion. Imagine this lsit: some people prefer
> %LTIME, otehr prefer %OTIME, how would you know who uses which?

Agreed. My request is simply that the %OTIME and %OTIMELONG macros
should give the time that's in the Kludges ad verbatim, which is the
message senders local time with GMT. That would make things fine.

-- 
 * Ali Martin  mailto: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
   
  ** No sense being pessimistic. It wouldn't work anyway.
  
   *** Using The Bat! v1.38 Beta/3 [-] Windows NT 4.0 (Service Pack 6)  

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Re[2]: Original Message Date and time query

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hi Alexander,

on Wednesday, November 24, 1999, 10:56:56 PM GMT+0800, Alexander V. Kiselev wrote:

>> I would prefer it to always be in GMT (as pine does it), but I have
>> seen from my colleagues that the lcoal time is more appreciated by the
>> average user. 

AVK> And I'll explain you why...

AVK> Suppose I worked hard all day teaching students, then returned 
AVK> back home and composed a couple of message to a mailing list 
AVK> (about 5-00PM my local time). Then suppose some American 
AVK> like Steve Lamb (just for example) decided to reply to these. His 
AVK> message will then start with:

AVK> ., 1-00 PM, Alexander V. Kiselev wrote

AVK> And suppose the head of our staff is the member of the same 
AVK> mailing list

In that case I would think your head of staff would know the meaning
of GMT, wouldn't s/he? ;-)

>> I think we discussed this on this list about last month or so.
>> The result was the suggestion to add "GMT+" hours to the
>> Reply Template (see above). 

AVK> Yup, this is a workaround of course, but this doesn't solve the 
AVK> problem itself I'd say.

But it clarifies what time is meant. You sent your message at 10:56pm
my time - but do you know that it is "my time", or does it look like
it could be "your time"? And do you know where "my time" is? A "time
zone indicator" is needed in international email, I think. And for me,
"09:00 GMT+0800" and "01:00 GMT" have the same meaning. No time zone
indicator causes confusion. With a time zone indicator, it really
doesn't matter whether you use Local Time or GMT. The average user
prefers Local Time.

>> Here is a suggestion: Add a %GMT macro, which would should the
>> difference between your local time zone and GMT.

AVK> Better add a %LTIME macro that would default to the local time 
AVK> (this is how the %OTIME works currently), and modify the 
AVK> %OTIME macro to show the time as it was stated in the 
AVK> message headers, *without* the timezone correction.

Agree; better than my suggestion. Still it should show the time zone,
in order to avoid confusion. Imagine this lsit: some people prefer
%LTIME, otehr prefer %OTIME, how would you know who uses which?

-- 

Best regards,
Thomas.  

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.38 Beta/3
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998  
on a Pentium II/350 MHz.



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Re[3]: Original Message Date and time query

[Douglas Hinds]

Hello TBUDL members,

As I have understood it:

Received time is my time, Created time is sender's time and GT or GMT
is just the latter says - Mean time, or 0 time (it's the longitude,
which is what makes time time).

Therefore, the suggestion to include the sender's time zone in a
message sent as indicted by GMT+X or 0+X hours is as logical solution
to the issue as any.

DH


Wednesday, November 24, 1999, 9:29:07 PM, you wrote:

TF> Hi Alexander,

TF> on Wednesday, November 24, 1999, 10:56:56 PM GMT+0800, Alexander V. Kiselev wrote:

>>> I would prefer it to always be in GMT (as pine does it), but I have
>>> seen from my colleagues that the lcoal time is more appreciated by the
>>> average user. 

AVK>> And I'll explain you why...

AVK>> Suppose I worked hard all day teaching students, then returned 
AVK>> back home and composed a couple of message to a mailing list 
AVK>> (about 5-00PM my local time). Then suppose some American 
AVK>> like Steve Lamb (just for example) decided to reply to these. His 
AVK>> message will then start with:

AVK>> ., 1-00 PM, Alexander V. Kiselev wrote

AVK>> And suppose the head of our staff is the member of the same 
AVK>> mailing list

TF> In that case I would think your head of staff would know the meaning
TF> of GMT, wouldn't s/he? ;-)

>>> I think we discussed this on this list about last month or so.
>>> The result was the suggestion to add "GMT+" hours to the
>>> Reply Template (see above). 

AVK>> Yup, this is a workaround of course, but this doesn't solve the 
AVK>> problem itself I'd say.

TF> But it clarifies what time is meant. You sent your message at 10:56pm
TF> my time - but do you know that it is "my time", or does it look like
TF> it could be "your time"? And do you know where "my time" is? A "time
TF> zone indicator" is needed in international email, I think. And for me,
TF> "09:00 GMT+0800" and "01:00 GMT" have the same meaning. No time zone
TF> indicator causes confusion. With a time zone indicator, it really
TF> doesn't matter whether you use Local Time or GMT. The average user
TF> prefers Local Time.

>>> Here is a suggestion: Add a %GMT macro, which would should the
>>> difference between your local time zone and GMT.

AVK>> Better add a %LTIME macro that would default to the local time 
AVK>> (this is how the %OTIME works currently), and modify the 
AVK>> %OTIME macro to show the time as it was stated in the 
AVK>> message headers, *without* the timezone correction.

TF> Agree; better than my suggestion. Still it should show the time zone,
TF> in order to avoid confusion. Imagine this lsit: some people prefer
TF> %LTIME, otehr prefer %OTIME, how would you know who uses which?

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