Re[2]: How do you get decent support out of
Hello Thomas, Thursday, January 6, 2005, 4:39:09 PM, you wrote: TF Hello Stuart, TF On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 19:20:00 + GMT (06/01/2005, 02:20 +0700 GMT), TF Stuart Moore wrote: SM As another pointed out, for a commercial operation, depending SM on volunteer support would be challenging to opt for. Hence SM why so many people make money selling support on the likes of linux. TF True. The people who make money are the distributors. You could become TF a TB distributor and make money off that. Point in case is that the TF former German TB distributor did exactly that until he was terminated. TF Now the German support is back to the volunteer TB lists. OK. I surrender. The Bat is a wonderful package, RITLabs a remarkable developer, and the mailing list support of the The Bat the best exemplar of software support for individuals and small businesses on the planet and I am delighted with having spent the additional money on the pro/business version of the package. Please do not terminate me. :-) -- Stuart Current version is 3.0.1.33 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: How do you get decent support out of
Hello Thomas, Thursday, January 6, 2005, 6:07:54 PM, you wrote: TF I mean that I am not aware of any software company selling an email TF product that offers tech support better than the TB lists. I have in the past, for major corporations, contracted support from Microsoft (for Exchange/Outlook) and IBM (for Lotus Notes) before (to name the two biggest corporate email systems). There contracts had guaranteed escalation paths up to developer (and development project management) involvement. These contracts were found to be effective in providing corporate level resolution of major problems. I know of such agreements in place for a number of other email packages. I think that you need to define better. I think we may be driven by very different criteria. Certainly one can come to this mailing list and obtain excellent detailed support on quiet singular aspects and requirements of The Bat almost certainly in a manner that would not be entertained for execution for within a major corporate (certainly not if they have outsourced their infrastructure to a mainstream provider). I am not sure that I would call that better rather than simply different and perhaps fit-for-purpose for a different client base than the one I was referring to and the customer segment that I, mistakenly it would seem, had assumed I was buying into with the premium purchase of The Bat. -- Stuart Current version is 3.0.1.33 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: How do you get decent support out of
Hello Mary, Thursday, January 6, 2005, 6:07:25 PM, you wrote: MB I think perhaps Thomas may have thought he was Replying to Andrew. MB Andrew said that his company selected a different e-mail client, right Ah, my mistake. Thanks for clarifying. Still not used to The Bat threading over decent Cosy style threading. MB Thomas apparently doesn't think that any e-mail seller offers that MB kind of support. I see. I have responded on this point because my experience differs. Thanks for the intervention. -- Stuart Current version is 3.0.1.33 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: How do you get decent support out of
Hello Peter, Wednesday, January 5, 2005, 8:54:58 PM, you wrote: PM Hi Stuart, PM on Wed, 5 Jan 2005 19:20:00 +GMT, you wrote: SM I agree that the support on this mail list is absolutely SM excellent. I just do not think it appropriate for a software SM developer to take money for a business/pro version and not provide SM some degree of support without depending on unpaid volunteers. PM What's wrong with that, as long as there *is* support? Firstly I think that it is unsustainable as a commercial proposition for the long term growth of a software house (i.e. they will be capped by the customer base willing to accept this model - regardless of the merits) and secondly I believe that direct and significant involvement in support is fundamental to the improvement cycle of software development in a commercial model. (The open source model has a different and viable approach to this feedback loop.) Having read through this mailing list and a lot of the beta list I personally believe that I see evidence of this weakness manifesting itself within the RITLabs approach. PM In my view, this is a formalism. RITlabs could hire an extra support PM person, which would increase their costs and in consequence the price PM of the product. All this person could do is read everything in all TB! PM lists (because no-one can imagine all possible conjunctions and PM interferences on the users' PCs with their programs and The Bat!). PM This can be done much better by the users themselves. So, RITlabs PM actually *has* a much more efficient support than usual. :)) Indeed. I would have paid more for better support. I had, wrongly, assumed that in purchasing the Pro/Business version I had already done so. PM I'd love to be paid for my participation, but I volunteer anyway like PM many others. I just think it's worthwhile. :-) I understand this and appreciate your contribution. I too contribute voluntarily to many causes. I suspect that we are not going to agree. -- Stuart Current version is 3.0.1.33 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: How do you get decent support out of
Hello Peter, Wednesday, January 5, 2005, 3:54:58 PM, you wrote and sent the following: What's wrong with that, as long as there *is* support? I'd love to be paid for my participation, but I volunteer anyway like many others. I just think it's worthwhile. :-) It is worthwhile, I participate on a few lists and forums for various things. But a corporate support person has access to resources that user-based support groups (collectively) do not. They have the ability to go to program managers, programers, testers, marketing people, whoever, and act as client advocates when they are doing the job right and can get answers for impossible or difficult questions. The money argument doesn't hold water. They already charge enough (and recharged it again recently) to afford a customer support person or two. Especially if they are seeking corporate clients... they will have to invest $$ to make $$, and if they get popular and their costs decrease... well, we won't see a corresponding benefit. :) We all deserve vendor support, but a corporation is even less likely to invest limited budget in software that doesn't have at least that... Call it formalism, but a corporation wants a responsible party who represents the company to answer their questions, and their complaints, and that is part of the payment. And we (TBUDL) don't qualify as that responsible party for them (although, let me say this again, we--the indv. users--deserve no less than that either). I prefer user-based support, it is often faster, but I want access to the vendor for the bigger issues. -- Andrew Using The Bat! 3.0.1.33 On Windows XP, 5.1 Build: 2600 New toy for children with short attention spans: boomerangs that don't come back. Current version is 3.0.1.33 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: How do you get decent support out of
Hello Alexander, I am not sure that I understand your points exactly. Thursday, January 6, 2005, 1:49:46 PM, you wrote: SM I agree that the support on this mail list is absolutely excellent. I SM just do not think it appropriate for a software developer to take SM money for a business/pro version and not provide some degree of SM support without depending on unpaid volunteers. I agree wholeheartedly. Naturally for me I'd rather see lower prices and this sort of community support but I am almost certain that this is not way to go for a business point-of-view. ASK Which business take care of their IT/mail infrastructure itself? A lot. Many probably should not do so. Part of my job is running package and outsourcing selection processes for companies (small, medium and absolutely gigantic). However, I do not see how this relates to a manufacturer failing to support a product they produce. ASK Those that actually do are either very, I beg your pardon, stupid, or ASK rather big, so that they have their own IT administration and end user ASK support (be it internal or outsourced, doesn't matter). I think that is a bit of a leap. It is not always stupid to retain in house and a golden principle is do not outsource what you do not understand (and like most principles there are cases where this does not apply). ASK SMB's should leave the support to their system builder/integrator, thats ASK the way customer relations are meant to work... What customer relations? Are you saying that the customer relations procedures should be outsourced, just commodity business processes (like Accounts Receivable), or are we just talking technology here. I know many SMBs who are far better served by doing it themselves. ASK I don't go and try to fix my car myself. I don't go and call the vendor for ASK help. I go to the nearest expert that I know (a mechanic, a garage) and ASK tell them I have a problem. They fix it, they're the experts. Indeed. I do expect that they can get help from Ford, GM, etc though. My apologies for completely misunderstanding your point. -- Stuart Current version is 3.0.1.33 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: How do you get decent support out of
Hello Thomas, Thursday, January 6, 2005, 11:06:27 AM, you wrote and sent the following: A I believe that user-based support is always the best, but in a A corporate setting not always appropriate. True too, but. And this is a real question, because I don't know the answer: Which email clients offer the same kind and quality of suppport that you can get from the TB lists? No disagreement, but that's not how bosses spend money. I think, what I'm hoping, is that Ritlabs sees the light regarding providing support (at least for winning corporate clients) and that we benefit by accident! -- Andrew Using The Bat! 3.0.1.33 On Windows XP, 5.1 Build: 2600 I like kids, but I don't think I could eat a whole one. Current version is 3.0.1.33 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: How do you get decent support out of
Hello Thomas, Thursday, January 6, 2005, 12:05:31 PM, you wrote and sent the following: Tell me the email client with which this is the case, and I'll concede. Pocosystems (Pocomail and Barca, an Outlook replacement). Support and Forums. Support responded to me the last time I trialed it, though I also used the forums. So no-one does what TB does yet, doesn't mean they aren't getting closer all the time. And in the meantime, the real point isn't is user-based support enough. In my mind, it's how Ritlabs is losing revenue and how we all (clients and company) could benefit if they took care. -- Andrew Using The Bat! 3.0.1.33 On Windows XP, 5.1 Build: 2600 I mean, there needs to be a wholesale effort against racial profiling, which is illiterate children. --George Walker Bush, second presidential debate, Oct. 11, 2000 Current version is 3.0.1.33 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: How do you get decent support out of
Hello Thomas, Thursday, January 6, 2005, 4:28:07 PM, you wrote: TF Good point. By the way, can you advise the email address of the email TF client's vendor that you are using instead, which will get you more or TF less immediate replies? Just curious. Sorry, I must be having a really bad day but I can not work out what you mean. -- Stuart Current version is 3.0.1.33 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: How do you get decent support out of
Hello Mary, Thursday, January 6, 2005, 1:07:25 PM, you wrote and sent the following: I think perhaps Thomas may have thought he was Replying to Andrew. Andrew said that his company selected a different e-mail client, right after it lost a year or more of collective productivity in two days, due to the viruses that invaded via Outlook Express's preview pane vulnerability a couple of years ago, Andrew said he would have very much liked to have been able to recommend The Bat!, but wasn't comfortable doing that because RitLabs does not answer its customers' letters asking for help--at least, not on a dependable basis. Corporation decision-makers are going to want answers from the seller or the developer, not from volunteers on a support mailing-list. At least that's the point I think was being made by Andrew. Thomas apparently doesn't think that any e-mail seller offers that kind of support. Summed up nicely! -- Andrew Using The Bat! 3.0.1.33 On Windows XP, 5.1 Build: 2600 Beware lest in your anxiety to avoid war you obtain a master. --Demosthenes (384 BC - 322 BC) Current version is 3.0.1.33 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: How do you get decent support out of
Hello Thomas, Wednesday, January 5, 2005, 12:43:31 PM, you wrote and sent the following: I consider these lists an integral part of TB, together with the Wiki which is getting better and better. Ritlabs is a real company with an office and full-time employees (to answer Stuart Moore's question) but what they lack in the department of tech support is more than made up by these lists. There were issues with TB in the past wich led me to not recommend it for businesses, but all of those (maybe with the exception of IMAP, am don't use that) have been solved. I would have no reservations recommending v3 in the current state. See above. Maybe the official Ritlabs support is pointless, but seeking support on these lists isn't. Oh, I'm sorry if it came across in the wrong way. I believe that user-based support is always the best, but in a corporate setting not always appropriate. It is a lot to expect, and unseemly, for a user list to support a corporate paying customer who shelled out whatever 50 seats cost. That's all. On an individual basis, we all make due. But in a corporate setting. Nope. I mean we lost 50-man days twice due to viruses. The powers that be realized that we had lost nearly a year's time in two, one-day incidents. Ritlabs could have benefited from that, and I'm sure from others who have realized the same--30 bucks a seat is a small price to pay for continued productivity, but only if it comes with some hope that help will be there at the vendor corporate level when client corp needs it. Maybe it is there, but since this is a word-of-mouth application to a large extent, our opinions do sway others. If they took care of us, they would take care of themselves with increased sales and licensing revenue -- Andrew Using The Bat! 3.0.1.33 On Windows XP, 5.1 Build: 2600 Current version is 3.0.1.33 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: How do you get decent support out of
TN So, what was your problem? TN TN I have been using TB! for years and had no major problems at all. I had locked out the admin account - none of the working accounts had admin rights. In the past now so no need to work through what may or may not have happened as I cannot test anything now. I am pleased you have experienced no problems. I have had problems in the past (possibly my fault despite using the Internet since before it was called that) with a) filters no working correctly (resolved with a point upgrade) and emails being deleted for no apparent reason (not connected to the filters I assure you) - thank goodness for regular backups. -- Stuart Current version is 3.0.1.33 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: How do you get decent support out of
Hello Mary, Wednesday, January 5, 2005, 1:44:46 PM, you wrote and sent the following: Would you consider subscribing there (if you haven't already) and raising this topic on TBUDL'S sister list? The team is very heavily engaged in getting out a revision of the latest release right now, but one or another of them is reading and posting there several times a week. From what all of them, including the apparent highest decision makers say, they are trying very hard to make a viable corporate-world commercial product. They're just quite low on communication and marketing expertise! As I'm sure all of my fellow listers will concur. And possibly even view my last statement above as the understatement of the year!! Kind of suspected I was preaching to the choir, but I couldn't stop myself :) I mentioned it during (what I think was) their first experiment in support boards, before they closed them down due to popular disappointment. They either will or won't, but at this stage they have to provide the support for people to believe them. I'm sure they know this has happened, and I'm sure they are aware of the disappointment of corporate clients they have undoubtedly lost over the years. They have to do it, and unfortunately for them, they will have to provide quality support for a long while before anyone will really believe them and they will have to take care of critical and use issues in a timely fashion (I don't use IMAP, and it wouldn't have been an issue in my example, but it will be for others). Let's hope they actually follow through. If they don't, the up and comers will copy the best TB! has to offer and eventually replace it (wow, the quotes are random, but the one below is apropos). -- Andrew Using The Bat! 3.0.1.33 On Windows XP, 5.1 Build: 2600 For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled. --Richard Feynman (1918 - 1988) Current version is 3.0.1.33 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: How do you get decent support out of
Hello Alexander, Wednesday, January 5, 2005, 2:00:42 PM, you wrote and sent the following: I think the company you're working for should think about its security strategy, and not just about the mail program... It was a while ago, but attachments come in all the time. No security policy is perfect, and it was one of those viruses that exploited OE and Outlook's VB support when the preview pane was enabled (if I remember correctly, the ones that triggered effectively automatically a few years ago, remember?). Most AV's are after the fact, after the discovery, but not before. And it did force them to look at what they could have done differently, hence the discussion about switching e-mail clients. You can't stop people from sending you e-mail, but IE, OE, and Outlook sure don't help, they aren't in the easy to control and still remain usable category. Ditching them all should be part of any security policy! :) Now with password protected zips with the password in the body... no-one and nothing can protect you against stupidity (what was that quote, human intelligence is limited, but not its stupidity?). -- Andrew Using The Bat! 3.0.1.33 On Windows XP, 5.1 Build: 2600 Current version is 3.0.1.33 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: How do you get decent support out of
I agree that the support on this mail list is absolutely excellent. I just do not think it appropriate for a software developer to take money for a business/pro version and not provide some degree of support without depending on unpaid volunteers. Some response (even, I dunno Gov, have you tried rebuilding your PC, never seen this before) within a week would have been unpalatable but at least I would have known where I stood. The complete lack of response is ignorant, rude and unprofessional. As another pointed out, for a commercial operation, depending on volunteer support would be challenging to opt for. Hence why so many people make money selling support on the likes of linux. -- Stuart Current version is 3.0.1.33 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re[2]: How do you get decent support out of
Hello Mary, Wednesday, January 5, 2005, 2:32:17 PM, you wrote and sent the following: Hello Andrew! On Wednesday, January 05, 2005, 1:08 PM, you wrote: Keep the faith, Andrew! :42: I'll try Feynman had a way about him though, didn't he? Probably impossible to deal with in person, but no one said geniuses had to be polite! -- Andrew Using The Bat! 3.0.1.33 On Windows XP, 5.1 Build: 2600 I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. --Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955) Current version is 3.0.1.33 | 'Using TBUDL' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
