Re[2]: Suggestion: Warn if no subject entered

[Jack LaRosa]

Hi Nick

Tuesday, October 12, 1999, you wrote to the list:

ND>  Personally, I find those "idiot light" type warnings irritating as
ND> all heck.  I'm always thinking "If I wanted a damn subject I would
ND> have put a damn subject" as I press the OK button.  Just add a default
ND> to your template and then change it if needed, at least you'll have
ND> something there. Like - "This would be different if I didn't forget to
ND> change it".

I think your suggestion is a good one, frivolous or not. But where
does the *%SUBJ This would be...* get placed so that it appears in the
subject line?


-- 
Sincerely,
Jack LaRosamail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Alabama, USA

Message created 11:37:31 PM  (GMT-6) on Saturday, October 16, 1999

=
Using The Bat! ver. 1.36 (reg)
under Windows 95  ver.4.0  build 1212  Service Pack  B
=



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Re[2]: Suggestion: Warn if no subject entered

[Anne Kaeser]

Steve,

okay, a simple suggestion on this one:

just have a notice in the subject line in an evil red color "no
subject" when so subject is entered.

that shouldn't bother while composing (eyes concentrated on something
else) and yet be seen when entering a recipient.

-Jast

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Re[2]: Suggestion: Warn if no subject entered

[August Hochrainer]

Hello Ron,

Wednesday, October 13, 1999, you wrote:

R> On Tuesday, October 12, 1999, Kevin Boylan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> A kind of frivolous suggestion I guess, but as you can tell from my
>> previous post, I have a hard time remembering to enter a subject sometimes.
>> I think it would be worthwhile to have a warning message when we press the
>> send or queue button if we haven't entered a subject.

R> On the few occasions when I have sent a message without a subject
R> using TB, it has been an unintentional omission on my part.  Messages
R> with blank subjects also make it more difficult to follow threads in
R> many other lists (where threading by subject produces better results
R> than threading by reference) and to search to find a particular old
R> message in a message base.  So I strongly agree with Kevin's
R> suggestion for a warning when the subject is blank, either as standard
R> behavior or as an option.

R> Ron Mura
R> [EMAIL PROTECTED]



You wouldn't believe it: I sent this suggestion already one year ago,
and others did as well. But nothing has happened
BTW Microsoft Outlook has this feature.

Best regards,
 Augustmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re[2]: Suggestion: Warn if no subject entered

[tracer]

Hello Steve,

Wednesday, Wednesday, October 13, 1999, you wrote:

Steve Lamb> Tuesday, October 12, 1999, 5:47:48 PM, Ali wrote:
>> My response is that other OS's that offer great flexibility do so
>> through excessive complexity, obscurity, and obfuscation that makes it

Steve Lamb> Funny how none of the simpler OSs provide any of that yet you call it
Steve Lamb> "excessive" complexity, obscurity and obfuscation.  I have to chuckle since
Steve Lamb> the "easy" OSs are "easy" because the "hide" things and present a 
simplified
Steve Lamb> interface to the user.  Anytime the user wants to do anything the 
simplified
Steve Lamb> interface presents guess what he has to go through...

Steve Lamb> ...excessive complexity (Windows registry/Mac "control panel" anyone?),
Steve Lamb> obscurity (Windows registry/Mac control panel) and obfuscation (again, the
Steve Lamb> same).

Steve Lamb> Trust me, there is something refreshing about having all the system
Steve Lamb> configuration in one place (/etc) and in a format that is easily 
manipulated.
Steve Lamb> Tell me, Ali, what is so complex, obscure and obfuscated about a plain text
Steve Lamb> file that one of a dozen different editors can manipulate with instructions
Steve Lamb> that are leagues better than the "wizards" that are so prevalent now?

Steve Lamb> Nothing.

Steve Lamb> People who say that Unix (Esp. Linux) is hard have never used it and 
don't
Steve Lamb> really grasp how hard Windows/Mac are nor the difference between "hard" and
Steve Lamb> "different."

I happen to run Linux as well, and if one hasnt used it recently then
Ali, you have no idea of current changes on the way. If all for the good of
Linux seems to cause some intriguing arguments but it seems that user
friendliness is attempted to be introduced.
It takes time to get accustomed to Linux after windows but once you
run it...
I have one box at home my kids use  and sofar they havent caused me
ONE reinstall something I was forced to do every weekend with 95..

 Anyway, I prefer an os like Linux where I have access to all data and
can change (and screw up (g)) what I want any time to windows which
hides it bugs behind so much crap its sometimes unbelievable.
And remember I was betatesting the 95/98...

reminds me, any chance for a linux version of the bat.




Best regards,
 
tracer

mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
NOTE: 1 MAILRUN PER DAY ONLY



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Re[2]: Suggestion: Warn if no subject entered

[tracer]

Hello Steve,

Wednesday, Wednesday, October 13, 1999, you wrote:

Steve Lamb> Tuesday, October 12, 1999, 4:56:38 PM, Kevin wrote:
>> No hoops to jump through if options have to be turned on to use them.

Steve Lamb> The people who needs those options wouldn't know to turn them on.  3+
Steve Lamb> years of tech support at an ISP has taught me that.
You mean they would ask you to turn it on for them (g)

>> You may rather lose the files, but there are lots of paranoid people
>> out there that wouldn't.  Their jobs may depend on it.  Besides that's
>> what the "Yes to All" buttons are for.  :-)

Steve Lamb> My job did and still does depend upon it.  I play with production 
machines
Steve Lamb> in a 24/7 environment.

>> If you only forgot one subject, then you'd only have gotten one
>> confirmation message.

Steve Lamb> No, you obviously didn't read the earlier messages.  What about when I
Steve Lamb> send blank messages to my friends and relatives *BY CHOICE*?

>>> Mistakes happen, deal with it, don't dumb it down to where it causes extra
>>> work.

>> No extra work at all if all options have to be "turned on" to be used.

Steve Lamb> Counter intuitive to have the "safety" default to off.

>> It's an extreme case in that they overdo the confirmations. I'm not
>> asking for anything like that.  Just a simple option that lets me know
>> if I didn't add a subject, that wouldn't affect you if you didn't turn
>> the option on.

Steve Lamb> You really don't get it, do you?

Steve Lamb> *You* want a confirmation for messages without subjects.

Steve Lamb> Ali over there (just an example, Ali) wants confirmations before 
emptying
Steve Lamb> the trash.

Steve Lamb> Billy-Bo-Bob Brain wants confirmations before closing any window.

Steve Lamb> Big Bird wants a confirmation before moving folders.

Steve Lamb> Mr. Snuffiluffpolous wants confirmations before moving any message.

Steve Lamb> All of you say, "Well, just a simple option that lets me know..." and 
what
Steve Lamb> do you have?  5 "simple" options so far.  Need I continue the example to 
show
Steve Lamb> you the end result or shall I assume you're intelligent enough to take it 
from
Steve Lamb> here?
 Outlook 2001 (g)
>> I don't want checks on any of the things you listed either, but if
>> they were options that I had to turn ON if I wanted them I wouldn't
>> have a problem with it.  No extra work unless you WANT the option. But
>> the flexibility would be there if I needed it.

Steve Lamb> Then you have people complaining that the need to turn on all those
Steve Lamb> options.  I believe I addressed that in the last message.




Best regards,
 
tracer

mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
NOTE: 1 MAILRUN PER DAY ONLY



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Re[2]: Suggestion: Warn if no subject entered

[Roel]

Hello Steve,

Wednesday, October 13, 1999, 4:25:44 AM, you wrote:

SL> 1: Most people are lost within Windows without a good manual.
Ok, when I look at my mother: you've got a point here... :-)

SL> 2: A recent study of grade-school children who had never had any computer
SL> experience before showed that they picked up Linux faster than Windows.

As I stated in my previous mail: I didn't comment on Linux (because I
haven't tried it out yet), but I did comment on Unix (sco-unix to be
more precise...)
& believe me, you do get lost there...

Furthermore: Unix _was_ developped for programmers... (just look up the
history of Unix)

SL> I dunno about you, but I don't consider grade-school children who have
SL> never messed around with a computer before "programmers."
This only proves that the GUI of Linux is better... (but as I didn't
refer to Linux etc...)

SL> BTW, I'm not a programmer either.
I'm becoming one...


Okay, you have made your points clear, you don't have to convince me
that unix is better than windows (cause I think so too) & I'm really
getting bored of all this... END OF TOPIC??? (finaly?)

-- 
 Der Immer Jodelende Schweizer In Lederhosen
 Roelmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Using The Bat 1.35 on Windows 98 build 4.10

Laziness is the mother of efficiency...


**==**
  If you believe in Light
 it's because of Obscurity

  If you believe in Joy
 it's because of Sadeness

  If you believe in God
  then you have to believe in the Devil

   * Father X, Exorcist, Church of Notre Dame - Paris *
**==**

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Re[2]: Suggestion: Warn if no subject entered

[Roel]

Hello Steve,

Wednesday, October 13, 1999, 4:02:21 AM, you wrote:

SL> People who say that Unix (Esp. Linux) is hard have never used it and don't
SL> really grasp how hard Windows/Mac are nor the difference between "hard" and
SL> "different."

Sorry, don't agree with you there:
(I'm not referring to Linux as I haven't tested it yet)

It's hard! and that's not because everything is stored in one place in
an easy format (that's why I love it) but because it is made for
programmers... you're just completely lost without a very good
manual...

Therefore: Unix is a superb OS, for its target-audience...
(programmers)

For all those who aren't into pc's that much, but just want to surf
the web, receive/send emails & want just a bit of control over their
pc's: windows is great - as long as its stable at least :-)

To everybody on this thread...
Second time: Since this isn't about The Bat anymore, end of Topic???
if you still want to discuss it, could you do it off-list?
this is already the 25th message about this and I'm getting bored of
it... (and I think some other folks too...)


-- 
 Der Immer Jodelende Schweizer In Lederhosen
 Roelmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Using The Bat 1.35 on Windows 98 build 4.10

You'll know if you married a virgin, as when she wakes she will ask
you: "Are you still stiff from last night?" 


**==**
  If you believe in Light
 it's because of Obscurity

  If you believe in Joy
 it's because of Sadeness

  If you believe in God
  then you have to believe in the Devil

   * Father X, Exorcist, Church of Notre Dame - Paris *
**==**

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Re[2]: Suggestion: Warn if no subject entered

[Roel Paesen]

Hello Steve,

Wednesday, October 13, 1999, 1:08:06 AM, you wrote:

SL> Tuesday, October 12, 1999, 3:56:32 PM, Roel wrote:
>> For the record: you can toggle that one! (properties of your trash-bin)...

SL> For the record, no, you cannot.

SL> If you have files going into the trash and don't turn off the
SL> confirmation.  You have to confirm when you press delete, confirm on programs,
SL> confirm when emptying trash.

SL> If you turn that confirmation off you still need to confirm on programs
SL> and confirm when emptying trash.
Doesn't work like that over here (that is: if you mean simple .exe
files...)
and if you want to delete a full dir, press shift-del...

SL> If you turn off files going into the trash you have to confirm when you
SL> press delete and there is no way to turn off that confirmation.  Of course,
SL> you also have to confirm if they are programs.

Yep, see your point, however, I putted a little entry in my
autoexec.batwhich erases my recycle-bin on every-startup...
(that's why I don't have to confirm & why I overlooked this...)
Sorry :-)

BTW: since this isn't about The Bat anylonger, I suggest end of topic?

-- 
 Der Immer Jodelende Schweizer In Lederhosen
 Roelmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Using The Bat 1.35 on Windows 98 build 4.10

Never trust anything that bleeds for five days and doesn't die.


**==**
  If you believe in Light
 it's because of Obscurity

  If you believe in Joy
 it's because of Sadeness

  If you believe in God
  then you have to believe in the Devil

   * Father X, Exorcist, Church of Notre Dame - Paris *
**==**

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Re[2]: Suggestion: Warn if no subject entered

[Kevin Boylan]

>> While you certainly don't want to go to the extreme where it makes
>> the user unproductive, any software developer wouldn't last long if
>> they didn't include some code to help the user avoid mistakes.

> This is extreme as there is no technical reason to do the check.  It makes
> the user unproductive because it causes them to jump through one more hoop to
> do what they want.

No hoops to jump through if options have to be turned on to use them.

> I'd rather lose the files the one time I screw up than to have
> to confirm the few thousand+ times I don't.

You may rather lose the files, but there are lots of paranoid people
out there that wouldn't.  Their jobs may depend on it.  Besides that's
what the "Yes to All" buttons are for.  :-)

> I'd rather send out one message without a subject and didn't mean it than
> to have to confirm the few hundred or thousand times I do.

If you only forgot one subject, then you'd only have gotten one
confirmation message.

> Mistakes happen, deal with it, don't dumb it down to where it causes extra
> work.

No extra work at all if all options have to be "turned on" to be used.

>> I agree with you here, but you are stating an extreme case, where they
>> went to the point of making things unproductive IMO.  Software should
>> be flexible and provide options.

> It is not an extreme case.

It's an extreme case in that they overdo the confirmations. I'm not
asking for anything like that.  Just a simple option that lets me know
if I didn't add a subject, that wouldn't affect you if you didn't turn
the option on.

> Let's put checks on emptying the trash, on parked messages in the
> trash, on deleting messages, on exiting existing messages, on
> deleting addresses from the to line, the cc line, the bcc line,
> deleting the subject, changing the templates, changing the quick
> templates, stopping a search.  What other button presses haven't I
> mentioned yet?  Now, let's make them all optional.  I just named 11
> options so far off the top of my head which all fall in the same
> "idiot-proof" catagory and if I decided to sit here and really go
> through TB and catalog all that I could think of I could fill 2-3
> pages on a normal tabbed option display.

I don't want checks on any of the things you listed either, but if
they were options that I had to turn ON if I wanted them I wouldn't
have a problem with it.  No extra work unless you WANT the option. But
the flexibility would be there if I needed it.

Thanks,

Kevin



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Re[2]: Suggestion: Warn if no subject entered

[Kevin Boylan]

>> If The Bat! (or any software for that matter) only included things
>> that were technically required to get mail from here to there, then
>> it wouldn't sell many copies.

> Furthermore, you don't know that it won't sell copies.

I said *many* copies.  There's plenty of mail packages out there that
only do the bare minimum that don't sell.

>> So what?  Set all the defaults so that the idiot proof messages
>> DON'T come up.

> Sure, please, let me set 50-60 different check boxes or whatever off.  I
> really appreciate that.

If they are all, by default, set so checking doesn't happen then you'd
never have to see or care about them.

>> I'd rather have more options than I'll ever use than to be
>> frustrated because I have none at all.

> Then why are you using Windows?

Same reason as you I guess.  You were the one that brought up Window's
inexcusableness.

Thanks,

Kevin



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Re[2]: Suggestion: Warn if no subject entered

[Roel Paesen]

Hello Steve,

Tuesday, October 12, 1999, 10:12:09 PM, you wrote:


Steve Lamb> Look at it another way, deleting files in Windows is impossible now
Steve Lamb> without having at least one and possibly up to 3 different confirmation 
boxes.

For the record: you can toggle that one! (properties of your trash-bin)...

-- 
 Der Immer Jodelende Schweizer In Lederhosen
 Roelmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Using The Bat 1.35 on Windows 98 build 4.10

Life in a vacuum sucks.


**==**
  If you believe in Light
 it's because of Obscurity

  If you believe in Joy
 it's because of Sadeness

  If you believe in God
  then you have to believe in the Devil

   * Father X, Exorcist, Church of Notre Dame - Paris *
**==**

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Re[2]: Suggestion: Warn if no subject entered

[Kevin Boylan]

>> Except that a subject is something that you almost never want to
>> leave blank and a default subject is no better than no subject.  If
>> you never forget to enter a subject then you never see the 'idiot
>> light' that us idiots seem to need.  :-)

> Operative term is almost.  Quick notes to my relatives, however, I rarely
> put subjects on.  Software isn't there to prevent the user from making
> mistakes.

Huh?  Software is definitely there to keep us from making mistakes.
While you certainly don't want to go to the extreme where it makes the
user unproductive, any software developer wouldn't last long if they
didn't include some code to help the user avoid mistakes.

> Assumptions like that only decrease software's usability, not
> increases it.  I'd rather make the mistakes than have to confirm
> everything.

> Look at it another way, deleting files in Windows is impossible now
> without having at least one and possibly up to 3 different confirmation boxes.
> I find that inexcusable.

I agree with you here, but you are stating an extreme case, where they
went to the point of making things unproductive IMO.  Software should
be flexible and provide options.

Thanks,

Kevin



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Re[2]: Suggestion: Warn if no subject entered

[Kevin Boylan]

>> That's true. It's good netiquette to always include a subject
>> header.

> But not a technical requirement.

If The Bat! (or any software for that matter) only included things
that were technically required to get mail from here to there, then it
wouldn't sell many copies.  When I compared The Bat! to other software
packages I chose it because of where it went above and beyond the bare
minimum.

> "Make it an option" I hear people thinking.  Great, so how many
> idiot-proofing things are we going to make optional?  Trust me, we
> can put so many in that we'd have 2-3 screens of options just to
> control the idiot-proofing.

So what?  Set all the defaults so that the idiot proof messages DON'T
come up.  I personally prefer software that gives me some kind of
control over things.  I'd rather have more options than I'll ever use
than to be frustrated because I have none at all.

> Mistakes happen.  Unless there is a technical reason to issue a warning,
> please, don't issue a warning.

See above.

Thanks,

Kevin



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Re[2]: Suggestion: Warn if no subject entered

[Kevin Boylan]

KB>> A kind of frivolous suggestion I guess, but as you can tell from my
KB>> previous post, I have a hard time remembering to enter a subject
KB>> sometimes. I think it would be worthwhile to have a warning message
KB>> when we press the send or queue button if we haven't entered a
KB>> subject.

> Personally, I find those "idiot light" type warnings irritating as all
> heck. I'm always thinking "If I wanted a damn subject I would have put a
> damn subject" as I press the OK button. Just add a default to your
> template and then change it if needed, at least you'll have something
> there. Like - "This would be different if I didn't forget to change it".

Except that a subject is something that you almost never want to leave
blank and a default subject is no better than no subject.  If you never
forget to enter a subject then you never see the 'idiot light' that us
idiots seem to need.  :-)

Thanks,

Kevin



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