Re: fallback from gnome-shell to the old desktop not satisfying since some days

[Ed Greshko]

On 04/06/2011 02:05 PM, Joachim Backes wrote:
> Hi Michael, I'm sorry, but there is no user menu at the right side of
> the panel. Only Applications and Places menu at the panel's left side. 

FWIW, I think I saw this issue a few days ago.  I wasn't paying too much
attention to it since my set up has F15-A in a VM and I was having VM
issues

But, I ended up creating a new user and the menus were in the "correct"
places.  I've not yet had the time to try and figure out the differences
between the old and new user.

Ed
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Re: fallback from gnome-shell to the old desktop not satisfying since some days

[Joachim Backes]

On 04/05/2011 07:31 PM, Michael Knepher wrote:

On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 9:27 AM, Joachim Backes
  wrote:

After having applied all updates, I see the following problem:

Switching to the old desktop fallback leads to some problems:

1. The menus are missing for logging out and restarting


Are you looking for the old "System" menu that was next to
Applications and Places? That's gone, and you should have "Log Out..."
and "Shut Down..." entries in the user menu on the right of the panel.


Hi Michael, I'm sorry, but there is no user menu at the right side of 
the panel. Only Applications and Places menu at the panel's left side.





2. No menu controlled way back to gnome-shell: I have to start manually
   gnome-control-center


"System Settings" should also be in the user menu.


You're right.



Running latest gnome-panel from updates-testing.


Me too.


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F-15 Branched report: 20110405 changes

[Branched Report]

Compose started at Tue Apr  5 13:15:42 UTC 2011

Broken deps for x86_64
--
balsa-2.4.9-5.fc15.x86_64 requires libnm-glib.so.2()(64bit)
coccinelle-0.2.5-0.rc4.2.fc15.1.x86_64 requires ocaml(Ograph2way) = 
0:7442f647b0a74ed48a5c9361fc42ccc4
coccinelle-0.2.5-0.rc4.2.fc15.1.x86_64 requires ocaml(Flag) = 
0:522d7f86f1236405e53271ff74923515
coccinelle-0.2.5-0.rc4.2.fc15.1.x86_64 requires ocaml(Osetb) = 
0:8f21a0a4f771662673604ed92a237d79
coccinelle-0.2.5-0.rc4.2.fc15.1.x86_64 requires ocaml(Oassocb) = 
0:d873c4a1eeb6fa5c5333f8658c49d1db
coccinelle-0.2.5-0.rc4.2.fc15.1.x86_64 requires ocaml(Setb) = 
0:93bdb588146a13126bfad4eab6c58206
coccinelle-0.2.5-0.rc4.2.fc15.1.x86_64 requires ocaml(Oassoc_buffer) = 
0:cf6fbee4fcc6644a0a90f07da8eb6c7b
coccinelle-0.2.5-0.rc4.2.fc15.1.x86_64 requires ocaml(Mapb) = 
0:617c09a110cef9f040335b35078c7234
coccinelle-0.2.5-0.rc4.2.fc15.1.x86_64 requires ocaml(Sexplib) = 
0:a990ea80438337d5407bbc0343c7236a
coccinelle-0.2.5-0.rc4.2.fc15.1.x86_64 requires ocaml(Dumper) = 
0:76126ba149caeb2d34f12e11187a9d4e
coccinelle-0.2.5-0.rc4.2.fc15.1.x86_64 requires ocaml(Oassoch) = 
0:87f7dc2635e5a7ed1ab03b7cd5380ace
coccinelle-0.2.5-0.rc4.2.fc15.1.x86_64 requires ocaml(SetPt) = 
0:b69c030e8ca717d556d3d9bd2a5d22fd
coccinelle-0.2.5-0.rc4.2.fc15.1.x86_64 requires ocaml(ANSITerminal) = 
0:3d0d1700618d8b3a4e4b2308f28cefb6
coccinelle-0.2.5-0.rc4.2.fc15.1.x86_64 requires ocaml(Oseti) = 
0:a937e7661f510c17bfd21d4372507795
collectd-mysql-4.10.2-2.fc15.x86_64 requires 
libmysqlclient.so.16()(64bit)
collectd-mysql-4.10.2-2.fc15.x86_64 requires 
libmysqlclient.so.16(libmysqlclient_16)(64bit)
cpm-0.23-0.3.beta.fc12.x86_64 requires libdotconf-1.0.so.0()(64bit)
db4o-7.4-2.fc13.x86_64 requires mono(Mono.GetOptions) = 0:2.0.0.0
dbmail-3.0.0-0.3.rc1.fc15.x86_64 requires libevent-1.4.so.2()(64bit)
dbmail-auth-ldap-3.0.0-0.3.rc1.fc15.x86_64 requires 
libevent-1.4.so.2()(64bit)
dh-make-0.55-3.fc15.noarch requires debhelper
eog-plugins-2.91.90-1.fc15.x86_64 requires 
libchamplain-gtk-0.10.so.0()(64bit)
eog-plugins-2.91.90-1.fc15.x86_64 requires 
libchamplain-0.10.so.0()(64bit)
1:fife-0.3.2-1.fc15.i686 requires libboost_regex.so.1.44.0
1:fife-0.3.2-1.fc15.i686 requires libboost_system.so.1.44.0
1:fife-0.3.2-1.fc15.i686 requires libboost_filesystem.so.1.44.0
1:fife-0.3.2-1.fc15.x86_64 requires libboost_regex.so.1.44.0()(64bit)
1:fife-0.3.2-1.fc15.x86_64 requires libboost_system.so.1.44.0()(64bit)
1:fife-0.3.2-1.fc15.x86_64 requires 
libboost_filesystem.so.1.44.0()(64bit)
file-browser-applet-0.6.6-1.fc15.x86_64 requires 
libpanel-applet-2.so.0()(64bit)
gcstar-1.6.1-3.fc15.noarch requires perl(Gtk2::ScrolledWindow)
gcstar-1.6.1-3.fc15.noarch requires perl(Gtk2::Dialog)
gcstar-1.6.1-3.fc15.noarch requires perl(Gtk2::Toolbar)
gcstar-1.6.1-3.fc15.noarch requires perl(Gtk2::TreeView)
gcstar-1.6.1-3.fc15.noarch requires perl(Gtk2::MenuBar)
gcstar-1.6.1-3.fc15.noarch requires perl(Gtk2::VBox)
gcstar-1.6.1-3.fc15.noarch requires perl(Gtk2::Window)
gcstar-1.6.1-3.fc15.noarch requires perl(Gtk2::MessageDialog)
glom-1.16.1-2.fc15.x86_64 requires libgdamm-4.0.so.12()(64bit)
glom-libs-1.16.1-2.fc15.i686 requires libgdamm-4.0.so.12
glom-libs-1.16.1-2.fc15.x86_64 requires libgdamm-4.0.so.12()(64bit)
glunarclock-0.34.1-1.fc14.x86_64 requires 
libpanel-applet-2.so.0()(64bit)
gnome-applet-bubblemon-2.0.15-1.fc13.x86_64 requires 
libpanel-applet-2.so.0()(64bit)
gnome-applet-cpufire-1.6-3.fc14.x86_64 requires 
libpanel-applet-2.so.0()(64bit)
gnome-applet-globalmenu-0.7.9-1.fc15.x86_64 requires 
libpanel-applet-2.so.0()(64bit)
gnome-applet-grandr-0.4.1-2.fc12.x86_64 requires 
libpanel-applet-2.so.0()(64bit)
gnome-applet-music-2.5.1-5.fc15.x86_64 requires 
libpanel-applet-2.so.0()(64bit)
gnome-applet-sensors-2.2.7-4.fc15.i686 requires libpanel-applet-2.so.0
gnome-applet-sensors-2.2.7-4.fc15.x86_64 requires 
libpanel-applet-2.so.0()(64bit)
gnome-applet-sshmenu-3.18-3.fc15.noarch requires ruby(panelapplet2)
gnome-applet-window-picker-0.5.8-2.fc14.x86_64 requires 
libpanel-applet-2.so.0()(64bit)
1:gnome-applets-2.32.0-3.fc15.x86_64 requires 
libpanel-applet-3.so.0()(64bit)
1:gnome-applets-2.32.0-3.fc15.x86_64 requires 
libpanel-applet-2.so.0()(64bit)
1:gnome-applets-2.32.0-3.fc15.x86_64 requires libgweather.so.1()(64bit)
gnome-netstatus-2.28.2-1.fc15.x86_64 requires 
libpanel-applet-2.so.0()(64bit)
gnome-pilot-conduits-2.32.1-2.fc15.x86_64 requires 
libgpilotd.so.5()(64bit)
gnome-pilot-conduits-2.32.1-2.fc15.x86_64 requires 
libgpilotdcm.so.4()(

Re: since last update system does not boot any more

[Adam Williamson]

On Tue, 2011-04-05 at 15:21 -0400, Richard Ryniker wrote:

> I should think "3" presents very little problem for internationalization,
> whereas "multi-user.target" demands translation before it "explains
> itself" to non-English-speaking users.  Because these are descriptive
> file names, not just message text, and they are used fairly early in the
> boot process, I doubt translation is easy.  Feasible, certainly, but
> messy and therefore unlikely to happen.

This is hardly an issue unique to systemd. Just about everything names
its files in English.
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Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net

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Re: Odd rebalancing behavior

[Michel Alexandre Salim]

On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 9:20 AM, Arne Jansen  wrote:
> On 04.04.2011 12:14, Michel Alexandre Salim wrote:
>> I have an external 4-disk enclosure, connected through USB 2.0 (my
>> laptop does not have a USB 3.0 connector, and the eSATA connector
>> somehow does not work); it initially had a 2-disk btrfs soft-RAID1 file
>> system (both data and metadata are RAID1).
>>
>> I recently added two more disks and did a rebalance. To my surprise it
>> went past the point where all four disks have the same amount of disk
>> usage, and went all the way to the original disks being empty, and the
>> new disks having all the data!
>>
>> Label: 'media.store'  uuid: 4cfd3551-aa85-4399-b872-9238ddb14c97
>>       Total devices 4 FS bytes used 1.22TB
>>       devid    3 size 1.82TB used 1.24TB path /dev/sdb
>>       devid    4 size 1.82TB used 1.24TB path /dev/sdc
>>       devid    2 size 1.82TB used 8.00MB path /dev/sde
>>       devid    1 size 1.82TB used 12.00MB path /dev/sdd
>>
>> Is this to be expected? Would another rebalance fix it, or should I
>> force-stop it by shutting down when the disk usage is roughly balanced?
>
> Currently this is expected behavior, as the current allocator doesn't
> distribute the chunks evenly. As soon as the round-robin allocator patch
> is merged, rebalance will lead to a balanced distribution. It has been
> posted to the list with the subject 'quasi-round-robin for chunk
> allocation'.
> If you test it, some feedback would be nice.
>
I tested it, by applying Arne's patch directly on the Fedora kernel's
source, and then rebuilding the btrfs module using dkms as per the
instructions in the Btrfs wiki.

It just reached the point where all disks have roughly the same amount
of space, and I'm happy to report that, while rebalancing is still not
finished, disk usage is now evenly spread across all four disks.

Here are three runs, spaced with several minutes in between, of btrfs fi show.

It'd be great if this patch can be applied soon -- or people who
expand their arrays when disk utilization increases beyond a threshold
would be surprised when they try rebalancing.

Thanks,

-- 
Michel

[michel@hypatia Radio]$ sudo btrfs fi show media.store
[sudo] password for michel:
Label: 'media.store'  uuid: 4cfd3551-aa85-4399-b872-9238ddb14c97
Total devices 4 FS bytes used 1.22TB
devid3 size 1.82TB used 638.00GB path /dev/sdc
devid4 size 1.82TB used 638.00GB path /dev/sdd
devid2 size 1.82TB used 637.26GB path /dev/sdf
devid1 size 1.82TB used 637.26GB path /dev/sde

Btrfs Btrfs v0.19
[michel@hypatia Radio]$ sudo btrfs fi show media.store
Label: 'media.store'  uuid: 4cfd3551-aa85-4399-b872-9238ddb14c97
Total devices 4 FS bytes used 1.22TB
devid3 size 1.82TB used 637.00GB path /dev/sdc
devid4 size 1.82TB used 637.00GB path /dev/sdd
devid2 size 1.82TB used 637.26GB path /dev/sdf
devid1 size 1.82TB used 637.26GB path /dev/sde

Btrfs Btrfs v0.19
[michel@hypatia Radio]$ sudo btrfs fi show media.store
Label: 'media.store'  uuid: 4cfd3551-aa85-4399-b872-9238ddb14c97
Total devices 4 FS bytes used 1.22TB
devid3 size 1.82TB used 638.00GB path /dev/sdc
devid4 size 1.82TB used 638.00GB path /dev/sdd
devid2 size 1.82TB used 637.26GB path /dev/sdf
devid1 size 1.82TB used 637.26GB path /dev/sde

Btrfs Btrfs v0.19
[michel@hypatia Radio]$ sudo btrfs fi show media.store
Label: 'media.store'  uuid: 4cfd3551-aa85-4399-b872-9238ddb14c97
Total devices 4 FS bytes used 1.22TB
devid3 size 1.82TB used 638.00GB path /dev/sdc
devid4 size 1.82TB used 638.00GB path /dev/sdd
devid2 size 1.82TB used 637.26GB path /dev/sdf
devid1 size 1.82TB used 637.26GB path /dev/sde

Btrfs Btrfs v0.19

> -Arne
>
>>
>> This is on Fedora 15 pre-release, x86_64, fully updated, kernel
>> 2.6.38.2-9 and btrfs-progs 0.19-13
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>
>



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[Fedora QA] #183: Request to join the ProvenTesters Group

[Fedora QA]

#183: Request to join the ProvenTesters Group
-+--
 Reporter:  wonderer |   Owner: 
 Type:  proventester request |  Status:  new
 Priority:  major|   Milestone: 
Component:  Proventester Mentor Request  | Version: 
 Keywords:   |  
-+--
 = reason =

 just get to know https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2011-3413
 and want to test with my Wacom Tablets.

 = recommendation =
 Requesting a Mentor.

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Re: since last update system does not boot any more

[Richard Ryniker]

>On Sat, 2011-04-02 at 10:49 -0400, Genes MailLists wrote:
>
>>   Indeed ... there is something simplistically elegant about:
>> 
>> 3
>> vs
>> multi-user.target
>
>Or, you could look upon it as 'utterly cryptic'. At least
>multi-user.target takes a shot at explaining itself. 3...3, well, not so
>much.
>-- 
>Adam Williamson

One can reasonably argue for either scheme, though Adam might be acused
of a desire to destroy venerable historic traditions of mystic Unix
incantations...

I should think "3" presents very little problem for internationalization,
whereas "multi-user.target" demands translation before it "explains
itself" to non-English-speaking users.  Because these are descriptive
file names, not just message text, and they are used fairly early in the
boot process, I doubt translation is easy.  Feasible, certainly, but
messy and therefore unlikely to happen.


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Re: Karma feedback needed for anaconda-15.26-1, systemd-23-1.fc15 and filesystem-2.4.40-1.fc15

[Daniel J Walsh]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 04/05/2011 02:34 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Tue, 2011-04-05 at 14:27 -0400, Daniel J Walsh wrote:
> 
>>  selinux-policy-3.9.16-12.fc15  and systemd-23-1.fc15 should allow the
>> system to boot in enforcing mode, although there are still labeling
>> problems under /run
> 
> What problems, exactly? Are updates pending for them? How bad are they?

We are still seeing some files mislabeled under /run.  Mainly files that
were created before policy was loaded.

If you run

restorecon -R -vn /run

You will see some mislabeled files.

I have heard from some people reporting these are causing AVC messages

dmesg | audit2allow
audit2allow -la

After boot.  ALthough the systems seem to be booting.
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Re: Karma feedback needed for anaconda-15.26-1, systemd-23-1.fc15 and filesystem-2.4.40-1.fc15

[Adam Williamson]

On Tue, 2011-04-05 at 14:42 -0400, James Laska wrote:
> On Tue, 2011-04-05 at 14:15 -0400, James Laska wrote:
> > On Tue, 2011-04-05 at 14:07 -0400, Kamil Paral wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > > 2. The system won't boot without selinux=0.
> > > 3. With selinux=0 the system boots, but firstboot crashes on last page 
> > > ("send hardware profile") and thus restarts on every boot.
> > 
> > Looks like we'll need a bug against firstboot.  Is there a firstboot
> > traceback file in /tmp ?
> 
> Interesting.  I'm not seeing a crash, but systemd does seem to take over
> and start GDM while firstboot is still running.  If I change tty's, I
> can find that firstboot is still up at the hardware profile step.

We do have the service files set up so this should be avoided -
firstboot-graphical.service has:

Before=prefdm.service

so if this is happening, it seems like systemd somehow isn't taking that
into account.
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Re: Karma feedback needed for anaconda-15.26-1, systemd-23-1.fc15 and filesystem-2.4.40-1.fc15

[James Laska]

On Tue, 2011-04-05 at 14:15 -0400, James Laska wrote:
> On Tue, 2011-04-05 at 14:07 -0400, Kamil Paral wrote:



> > 2. The system won't boot without selinux=0.
> > 3. With selinux=0 the system boots, but firstboot crashes on last page 
> > ("send hardware profile") and thus restarts on every boot.
> 
> Looks like we'll need a bug against firstboot.  Is there a firstboot
> traceback file in /tmp ?

Interesting.  I'm not seeing a crash, but systemd does seem to take over
and start GDM while firstboot is still running.  If I change tty's, I
can find that firstboot is still up at the hardware profile step.

Thanks,
James


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Re: Karma feedback needed for anaconda-15.26-1, systemd-23-1.fc15 and filesystem-2.4.40-1.fc15

[Adam Williamson]

On Tue, 2011-04-05 at 14:27 -0400, Daniel J Walsh wrote:

>  selinux-policy-3.9.16-12.fc15  and systemd-23-1.fc15 should allow the
> system to boot in enforcing mode, although there are still labeling
> problems under /run

What problems, exactly? Are updates pending for them? How bad are they?
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Re: F15 and GNOME 3

[Steven Stern]

On 04/05/2011 07:11 AM, Genes MailLists wrote:
> On 04/05/2011 04:33 AM, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote:
>> On 04/05/2011 08:15 AM, JB wrote:
> 
>>
>> No you are actually wrong here Gnome design and any other *DE or spin
>> design flaws or praises should be mentioned on their relevant list
>> within the project or upstream where all the relevant developers reside
>> which can either answer your question(s) and or take note of what you say.
>>
>> Adam ( or anyone else for that matter ) should not have to play
>> messenger and collect feedback to pass to them when you or anyone else
>> for that matter can pass your concern directly to them yourself.
>>
> 
>   Seems reasonable .. that said:
> 
>   It would be appropriate to discuss here which DE fedora should using
> ... and in so doing comparative benefits and drawbacks to help decide.
> Fedora is not (I assume wedded to gnome - its goal is to be the best ...
> so if Gnome 3 does not come up to snuff and we have a better alternative
> - we should consider a switch.
> 
>   [JB gnome 2 is dead - so please stop asking for it here .. its not an
> option - fedora follows gnome - and the current version is 3 or will be
> soon - if you have a beef with 2 versus 3, adam and johann are righ -
> take it to gnome dev]
> 
>   So if someone has constructive suggestions of an alternative to Gnome
> 3 - that should be fair game ...
> 
>   But you'd be targetting F16 at this stage of the game ... I would imagine.
> 
>   gene/
> 
> 
I'm really happy now with Gnome 3 and Avant Window Navigator. It turns
out to be quite a lot like OS/X.

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Re: Karma feedback needed for anaconda-15.26-1, systemd-23-1.fc15 and filesystem-2.4.40-1.fc15

[Daniel J Walsh]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 04/05/2011 02:15 PM, James Laska wrote:
> On Tue, 2011-04-05 at 14:07 -0400, Kamil Paral wrote:
 If you have a moment, and spare hardware/guest, please add karma
 feedback to:
   *
   https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/anaconda-15.26-1.fc15
   *
   https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/filesystem-2.4.40-1.fc15
   * https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/systemd-23-1.fc15
>>>
>>> Note that disabling SELinux via config file with just the above
>>> updates
>>> is going to fail and cause the system to be unbootable, due to
>>> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=692573 . To fix that you
>>> also need an updated libselinux, once the build succeeds.
>>
>> I'm confused. Are you talking about using jlaska's boot.iso or about people 
>> updating their existing installation?
>>
>> My experience with jlaska's boot.iso:
>> 1. The installation proceeds fine.
> 
> +1 for anaconda seems appropriate
> 
>> 2. The system won't boot without selinux=0.
>> 3. With selinux=0 the system boots, but firstboot crashes on last page 
>> ("send hardware profile") and thus restarts on every boot.
> 
> Looks like we'll need a bug against firstboot.  Is there a firstboot
> traceback file in /tmp ?
> 
>> Is that +1 or -1 karma for aforementioned updates?
> 
> I'm also trying to understand where things are the with the SELinux
> issues.  Does installing selinux-policy-3.9.16-12.fc15 make a
> difference?
> 
> Thanks,
> James
> 
> 
libselinux-2.0.99-4.fc15 should handle the systemd crashing when SELinux
is disabled problem.

 selinux-policy-3.9.16-12.fc15  and systemd-23-1.fc15 should allow the
system to boot in enforcing mode, although there are still labeling
problems under /run
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Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

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Re: Karma feedback needed for anaconda-15.26-1, systemd-23-1.fc15 and filesystem-2.4.40-1.fc15

[James Laska]

On Tue, 2011-04-05 at 14:07 -0400, Kamil Paral wrote:
> > > If you have a moment, and spare hardware/guest, please add karma
> > > feedback to:
> > >   *
> > >   https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/anaconda-15.26-1.fc15
> > >   *
> > >   https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/filesystem-2.4.40-1.fc15
> > >   * https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/systemd-23-1.fc15
> > 
> > Note that disabling SELinux via config file with just the above
> > updates
> > is going to fail and cause the system to be unbootable, due to
> > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=692573 . To fix that you
> > also need an updated libselinux, once the build succeeds.
> 
> I'm confused. Are you talking about using jlaska's boot.iso or about people 
> updating their existing installation?
> 
> My experience with jlaska's boot.iso:
> 1. The installation proceeds fine.

+1 for anaconda seems appropriate

> 2. The system won't boot without selinux=0.
> 3. With selinux=0 the system boots, but firstboot crashes on last page ("send 
> hardware profile") and thus restarts on every boot.

Looks like we'll need a bug against firstboot.  Is there a firstboot
traceback file in /tmp ?

> Is that +1 or -1 karma for aforementioned updates?

I'm also trying to understand where things are the with the SELinux
issues.  Does installing selinux-policy-3.9.16-12.fc15 make a
difference?

Thanks,
James



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Re: Karma feedback needed for anaconda-15.26-1, systemd-23-1.fc15 and filesystem-2.4.40-1.fc15

[Kamil Paral]

> > If you have a moment, and spare hardware/guest, please add karma
> > feedback to:
> >   *
> >   https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/anaconda-15.26-1.fc15
> >   *
> >   https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/filesystem-2.4.40-1.fc15
> >   * https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/systemd-23-1.fc15
> 
> Note that disabling SELinux via config file with just the above
> updates
> is going to fail and cause the system to be unbootable, due to
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=692573 . To fix that you
> also need an updated libselinux, once the build succeeds.

I'm confused. Are you talking about using jlaska's boot.iso or about people 
updating their existing installation?

My experience with jlaska's boot.iso:
1. The installation proceeds fine.
2. The system won't boot without selinux=0.
3. With selinux=0 the system boots, but firstboot crashes on last page ("send 
hardware profile") and thus restarts on every boot.

Is that +1 or -1 karma for aforementioned updates?
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Re: fallback from gnome-shell to the old desktop not satisfying since some days

[Michael Knepher]

On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 9:27 AM, Joachim Backes
 wrote:
> After having applied all updates, I see the following problem:
>
> Switching to the old desktop fallback leads to some problems:
>
> 1. The menus are missing for logging out and restarting

Are you looking for the old "System" menu that was next to
Applications and Places? That's gone, and you should have "Log Out..."
and "Shut Down..." entries in the user menu on the right of the panel.

> 2. No menu controlled way back to gnome-shell: I have to start manually
>   gnome-control-center

"System Settings" should also be in the user menu.

Running latest gnome-panel from updates-testing.

>
> Somebody sees this too?
>
> Kind regards
>
> --
> Joachim Backes 
>
> http://www.rhrk.uni-kl.de/~backes
>
>
> --
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Re: F15 and GNOME 3

[Genes MailLists]

On 04/05/2011 11:43 AM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Tue, 2011-04-05 at 08:11 -0400, Genes MailLists wrote:
> 
>>   It would be appropriate to discuss here which DE fedora should using

...

> 
> Not 'here' as in test list, really, no: it would probably make more
> sense on -devel, or the board public list. Arguing the case for a

  Yep - agreed.. I realized after I sent I was bit too fuzzy about
'here' .. I really just meant fedora-land rather than gnome-world .. :-)


> 
>>   But you'd be targetting F16 at this stage of the game ... I would imagine.
> 
> At minimum.

 Yah ... and given wayland + ? is a little ways off the choices are
somewhat limited at this juncture ... [Gnome, KDE, XFCE, LXDE,
VaporwareDE, and .. ]

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Re: F15 and GNOME 3

[JB]

Adam Williamson  redhat.com> writes:

> ...

I opened a can of worms on GNOME Shell dev list and have a hard time keeping up
with the traffic,
Let's see what comes out of there.

JB


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Re: fallback from gnome-shell to the old desktop not satisfying since some days

[Adam Williamson]

On Tue, 2011-04-05 at 18:27 +0200, Joachim Backes wrote:
> After having applied all updates, I see the following problem:
> 
> Switching to the old desktop fallback leads to some problems:
> 
> 1. The menus are missing for logging out and restarting
> 2. No menu controlled way back to gnome-shell: I have to start manually
> gnome-control-center
> 
> Somebody sees this too?

I recall an IRC discussion last night (probably #fedora-desktop in GNOME
IRC) about gnome-panel not being ported to dconf, so it has wacky
settings...
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fallback from gnome-shell to the old desktop not satisfying since some days

[Joachim Backes]

After having applied all updates, I see the following problem:

Switching to the old desktop fallback leads to some problems:

1. The menus are missing for logging out and restarting
2. No menu controlled way back to gnome-shell: I have to start manually
   gnome-control-center

Somebody sees this too?

Kind regards

--
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http://www.rhrk.uni-kl.de/~backes



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Re: Karma feedback needed for anaconda-15.26-1, systemd-23-1.fc15 and filesystem-2.4.40-1.fc15

[Adam Williamson]

On Tue, 2011-04-05 at 11:58 -0400, James Laska wrote:
> Greetings folks,
> 
> In anticipation of the Beta RC1 compose, I built a custom boot.iso in
> order to provide karma feedback on anaconda-15.26-1 (which includes
> fixes for bug#691880 and bug#678414), and related systemd+filesystem
> updates.  In order for these updates to land in the Beta RC compose,
> they need some karma feedback. 
> 
> If you have a moment, and spare hardware/guest, please add karma
> feedback to:
>   * https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/anaconda-15.26-1.fc15
>   * https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/filesystem-2.4.40-1.fc15
>   * https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/systemd-23-1.fc15

Note that disabling SELinux via config file with just the above updates
is going to fail and cause the system to be unbootable, due to
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=692573 . To fix that you
also need an updated libselinux, once the build succeeds.
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Karma feedback needed for anaconda-15.26-1, systemd-23-1.fc15 and filesystem-2.4.40-1.fc15

[James Laska]

Greetings folks,

In anticipation of the Beta RC1 compose, I built a custom boot.iso in
order to provide karma feedback on anaconda-15.26-1 (which includes
fixes for bug#691880 and bug#678414), and related systemd+filesystem
updates.  In order for these updates to land in the Beta RC compose,
they need some karma feedback. 

If you have a moment, and spare hardware/guest, please add karma
feedback to:
  * https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/anaconda-15.26-1.fc15
  * https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/filesystem-2.4.40-1.fc15
  * https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/systemd-23-1.fc15

You can test this update several ways, including ... 
 1. Updating requested packages and running liveinst from the
F-15-Beta-TC1 live image.  This won't allow you to verify
bug#693394, but should be sufficient for critpath karma.
 2. Boot a custom boot.iso and add a custom package repository [1]
during installation.  
  * The boot.iso is available at
http://jlaska.fedorapeople.org/boot-x86_64.iso
(http://jlaska.fedorapeople.org/boot-x86_64.SHA256SUM)
  * The custom package repo URL is
http://jlaska.fedorapeople.org/repos/dist-f15-updates-candidate

Thanks,
James

[1]  The packages are not yet available in updates-testing, I have
provided a custom package repository for testing purposes.  Guidance on
adding package repositories during installation is available at
http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/14/html/Installation_Guide/s1-pkgselection-x86.html#sn-additional-repos


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Re: F15 and GNOME 3

[Adam Williamson]

On Tue, 2011-04-05 at 08:15 +, JB wrote:

> > I'm sorry to have to explain this, but your mails are completely off
> > topic for this list, which is about testing - as in assuring the
> > functionality of - Fedora. It is not about the design of upstream
> > components of Fedora releases. The appropriate places to discuss the
> > design of GNOME 3 would be the GNOME design IRC channel or the GNOME
> > Shell mailing list, but as a bit of friendly advice, I would suggest
> > that what you take to those places should be concrete proposals backed
> > up with evidence or at least a consistent concept, not Grand
> > Pronouncements That They're Doing It All Wrong. Those don't go down so
> > well.
> > ...
> 
> Adam,
> 
> The Lady protests too much ... ;-)
> 
> Fedora, by including GNOME 3 (or any other distro component) in its test
> release, is effectively *endorsing* it

In a way, I guess, sure.

>  and expecting a feedback from users.

Not so much. It's to do with the mechanics of how stuff gets done. I
don't design GNOME Shell. No-one else on this list designs GNOME Shell.
Changes to the design of GNOME Shell do not happen in the Fedora
project, they happen in the GNOME project. So it makes little sense to
take wide-ranging concerns about the design of GNOME Shell to a Fedora
group which isn't at all involved in the design of GNOME Shell.

We take feedback, sure. Part of 'taking feedback' is directing that
feedback elsewhere, when elsewhere would be a better place for it.

> So, Fedora test list is the right place to talk about it (yes, in addition to
> specific component's list as well).

No, I still disagree. It's a simple practical consideration. You are not
going to achieve any significant change in GNOME Shell's design by
arguing about it on the Fedora QA mailing list.

> Fedora, by *edorsing* the above, made a mistake.
> It can be undone (yes, it is a test version of both products, Fedora and
> GNOME 3).

As far as this relates to a Fedora choice it's kind of on topic, so I'll
reply to say: no, not really. There would be absolutely no sense in
Fedora shipping a dead build of GNOME 2; Fedora is a distribution which
prides itself on moving with the times and following upstream, so trying
to keep a zombie unsupported old desktop running is not what we do at
all. The other choice would be to switch to a different default desktop,
which a) isn't a choice QA can make and b) would be just as disruptive
as a new GNOME version, anyway.

> You, as a Fedora QA representative, lovingly calling yourself Community Monkey
> with all that it implies, can and should collect and direct Fedora's and
> users/testers' concerns to GNOME 3 devs as well. You can quote us, if
> appropriate, when expressing your own views as well, regardless whether you
> (dis)agree with or are unsure of them.

As Rahul explained, this makes sense if your feedback was a clear-cut
and limited bug; that's easy to pass on. Passing on grand concerns about
the whole design of the Shell does not fit into this category. I could
post a pointer to your post on an upstream list, sure, but then what?
They are not going to adopt your idea wholesale. Do they reply with
questions and comments, I then forward those to this list, you reply to
this list, I forward your reply to the other list, and so on ad
absurdam? I hope you can see why that would be silly. There's no point
in going through a middle-man for a detailed and wide-ranging question
like this.
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Re: F15 and GNOME 3

[Adam Williamson]

On Tue, 2011-04-05 at 08:11 -0400, Genes MailLists wrote:

>   It would be appropriate to discuss here which DE fedora should using
> ... and in so doing comparative benefits and drawbacks to help decide.
> Fedora is not (I assume wedded to gnome - its goal is to be the best ...
> so if Gnome 3 does not come up to snuff and we have a better alternative
> - we should consider a switch.

Not 'here' as in test list, really, no: it would probably make more
sense on -devel, or the board public list. Arguing the case for a
different default desktop on this list isn't likely to achieve much,
because QA doesn't get to make those decisions.

>   But you'd be targetting F16 at this stage of the game ... I would imagine.

At minimum.
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rebuilding F15 packages with old xz compression

[Andre Robatino]

Andre Robatino  fedoraproject.org> writes:

> See the old_compression_15-Beta.TC1-*-DVD.txt files at
> http://robatino.fedoraproject.org . Of course, these are just the ones on the
> DVDs, the total number would be several times that.

Sorry, that should be http://robatino.fedorapeople.org . (I wish Gmane would let
you preview posts.)




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Re: F15 and GNOME 3

[Rahul Sundaram]

On 04/05/2011 09:01 PM, JB wrote:
>
> "...
> Before we ask non-technical business end users to get lost and write some
> extensions to fix problems GNOME 3 delivered to them, there is still a hope
> that GNOME devs fix the menu systems themselves.
> It can be done by anchoring back the new GNOME 3 menu system (minus silly
> Activities and Windows, Application sub-menu items) on a fully functional
> panel. Bingo. I trust they can do that with one finger, right ? :-)
> ...

I don't accept that premise that non-technical business end users are
negatively impacted.  Those same end users are very well used to tablets
and smart phones and this interface is quite similar.  Anyway,  you are
free to push for whatever you want to.  I am just inclined to tell you, 
it isn't likely to happen.

Rahul
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rebuilding F15 packages with old xz compression

[Andre Robatino]

Thomas Spura  fedoraproject.org> writes:
 
> On Tue, 5 Apr 2011 03:28:22 + (UTC)
> Andre Robatino wrote:
> 
> > What is the status of rebuilding packages in F15 that use the old xz
> > compression? There are still a significant number. (For example, I
> > find 62 and 59 of them on the 32- and 64-bit 15-Beta.TC1 DVDs, resp.)
> > 
> 
> Shouldn't they have a rebuild with the mass rebuild?
> I thought the xz compression change was before that, isn't it?
> 
> Can you give a list for the packages?

See the old_compression_15-Beta.TC1-*-DVD.txt files at
http://robatino.fedoraproject.org . Of course, these are just the ones on the
DVDs, the total number would be several times that.





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Re: F15 and GNOME 3

[JB]

Rahul Sundaram  gmail.com> writes:

> ... 
> FWIW,  I don't think it is a "obvious screwup".  It is a different
> design which some users would like and others wouldn't and telling
> upstream to go ahead and completely scratch it out and go back to 2.x
> menu is not going to go down well especially since they are very close
> to a release. 

As I have already stated on GNOME Shell dev list:
"...
Before we ask non-technical business end users to get lost and write some
extensions to fix problems GNOME 3 delivered to them, there is still a hope
that GNOME devs fix the menu systems themselves.
It can be done by anchoring back the new GNOME 3 menu system (minus silly
Activities and Windows, Application sub-menu items) on a fully functional
panel. Bingo. I trust they can do that with one finger, right ? :-)
...
"

> ...

JB


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Re: F15 and GNOME 3

[Rahul Sundaram]

On 04/05/2011 06:36 PM, JB wrote:
>
> But I did not expect the obvious screwup with the menu system - you would 
> think
> it would be impossible from a bunch of devs who delivered by now a mature
> DE like GNOME 2).
> I hope they reflect and change that part - it should be easy and not affecting
> the underlying architecture, as the one "misdeveloped" menu system already
> exists, but in the wrong place and misconstrued.
> I am hopeful.

FWIW,  I don't think it is a "obvious screwup".  It is a different
design which some users would like and others wouldn't and telling
upstream to go ahead and completely scratch it out and go back to 2.x
menu is not going to go down well especially since they are very close
to a release.  If someone cares deep enough for hierarchical menus, 
they should go write a extension to do what they want to do and the best
thing for GNOME Shell at this point is for a ecosystem of add-ons to
flourish like Firefox.  Since GNOME Shell uses Javascript, CSS etc, 
that is not a far off comparison. 

Keep a eye on

https://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/Extensions

The feedback in test list is only useful if it can be reported as a
straight forward bug but this one is fairly subjective opinion and won't
be very useful in achieving the change you desire.

Rahul


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Re: rebuilding F15 packages with old xz compression

[Dennis Gilmore]

On Monday, April 04, 2011 10:28:22 PM Andre Robatino wrote:
> What is the status of rebuilding packages in F15 that use the old xz
> compression? There are still a significant number. (For example, I find 62
> and 59 of them on the 32- and 64-bit 15-Beta.TC1 DVDs, resp.)
The maintainers of failed rebuilds need to fix and rebuild them

If they dont then its not likely they will be rebuilt at this point.  we do 
need to spend time getting the broken deps in the tree down to 0

Dennis


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Re: [Fedora QA] #162: Proposed Test Day - Virtualization

[Fedora QA]

#162: Proposed Test Day - Virtualization
---+
  Reporter:  jforbes   |   Owner:   
  Type:  task  |  Status:  new  
  Priority:  major |   Milestone:  Fedora 15
 Component:  Test Day  | Version:   
Resolution:|Keywords:   
---+
Comment (by jlaska):

 I spoke to jforbes yesterday and we discussed challenges with previous
 virtualization test events (details available in pages linked from
 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:QA_Retrospective).  Jforbes is
 pulling together some content soon.  If we can try to limit testing to 3
 focus areas, perhaps that might be a good strategy.  Something like ... 1)
 Virtualization core (basics of booting/installing guests of different
 arch/OS/release? 2) Some new feature, 3) Some other feature.  Just a
 thought to avoid too much choice.

 Also, instead of a table listing all possible test cases, perhaps the
 "What worked" and "What doesn't work" approach would be more suitable.

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Re: F15 and GNOME 3

[JB]

Genes MailLists  sapience.com> writes:

> ... 
>   [JB gnome 2 is dead - so please stop asking for it here .. its not an
> option - fedora follows gnome - and the current version is 3 or will be
> soon - if you have a beef with 2 versus 3, adam and johann are righ -
> take it to gnome dev]

I have posted to GNOME Shell dev list.

Just came first response:
"Free Software World is vast, if you want a "conservative desktop", look
at XFCE."

Well, let's wait for more responses ... :-)

Regarding GNOME 3.
I actually have been a user of GNOME for long time and appreciated its
functionality without the desease of too many features.
I liked the ecosystem of their applications.
I thought it was too slow/unresponsive.

So, I welcomed GNOME 3 as a natural progress and expected it to deliver new
architecture (that what their devs were also excited about) that would cure
some of that sluggishness, among others.
As I said I found the desktop very responsive, lacking at this stage the usual
fat (that will come with time any way, hopefully not too soon ...).
But I did not expect the obvious screwup with the menu system - you would think
it would be impossible from a bunch of devs who delivered by now a mature
DE like GNOME 2).
I hope they reflect and change that part - it should be easy and not affecting
the underlying architecture, as the one "misdeveloped" menu system already
exists, but in the wrong place and misconstrued.
I am hopeful.

Second response just came in:
" ...
Your arguments about RHEL desktop issue are a bit strange to me regarding
that most gnome-shell developers and designers are employeed by Red Hat. I
am not saying that Red Hat management has a big influence on the design
but I am sure that they wouldn't sponser it that much if they didn't like
it at all.
...
"
So far they are easy on me - I was afraid somewhat that they would go to get
a rope :-)

> ...
>   So if someone has constructive suggestions of an alternative to Gnome
> 3 - that should be fair game ...
> 
>   But you'd be targetting F16 at this stage of the game ... I would imagine.
> ...

As you know the movement already started on Fedora users list. But it is too
early to jump ship ... We shoud try to fight it out first :-)

JB


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Re: since last update system does not boot any more

[Genes MailLists]

On 04/05/2011 12:57 AM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Sat, 2011-04-02 at 10:49 -0400, Genes MailLists wrote:
> 
>>   Indeed ... there is something simplistically elegant about:
>>
>> 3
>> vs
>> multi-user.target
> 
> Or, you could look upon it as 'utterly cryptic'. At least
> multi-user.target takes a shot at explaining itself. 3...3, well, not so
> much.

 Well i can't argue with you there  .. :-) But 3 and 5 mean so much to
us at this point too ... but hey I can move on .. even if you make me
type so much more .. ;-[]

 Actually, since systemd supports a lot more than 3 run levels (that we
use) ... it is far more powerful in principal - tho I am not sure how we
use that increased functionality yet ..

 But I would still prefer shortening the option somewhat and making the
extension ".target" assumed by default and therefore optional - assuming
there is no ambiguity. So:

   ... --unit=multi-user

 would be equivalent to:

   ... --unit=multi-user.target


 Is that feasable I wonder ?

 gene/


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Re: rebuilding F15 packages with old xz compression

[Thomas Spura]

On Tue, 5 Apr 2011 03:28:22 + (UTC)
Andre Robatino wrote:

> What is the status of rebuilding packages in F15 that use the old xz
> compression? There are still a significant number. (For example, I
> find 62 and 59 of them on the 32- and 64-bit 15-Beta.TC1 DVDs, resp.)
> 

Shouldn't they have a rebuild with the mass rebuild?
I thought the xz compression change was before that, isn't it?

Can you give a list for the packages?

Thomas
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Re: F15 and GNOME 3

[Genes MailLists]

On 04/05/2011 04:33 AM, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote:
> On 04/05/2011 08:15 AM, JB wrote:

> 
> No you are actually wrong here Gnome design and any other *DE or spin
> design flaws or praises should be mentioned on their relevant list
> within the project or upstream where all the relevant developers reside
> which can either answer your question(s) and or take note of what you say.
> 
> Adam ( or anyone else for that matter ) should not have to play
> messenger and collect feedback to pass to them when you or anyone else
> for that matter can pass your concern directly to them yourself.
> 

  Seems reasonable .. that said:

  It would be appropriate to discuss here which DE fedora should using
... and in so doing comparative benefits and drawbacks to help decide.
Fedora is not (I assume wedded to gnome - its goal is to be the best ...
so if Gnome 3 does not come up to snuff and we have a better alternative
- we should consider a switch.

  [JB gnome 2 is dead - so please stop asking for it here .. its not an
option - fedora follows gnome - and the current version is 3 or will be
soon - if you have a beef with 2 versus 3, adam and johann are righ -
take it to gnome dev]

  So if someone has constructive suggestions of an alternative to Gnome
3 - that should be fair game ...

  But you'd be targetting F16 at this stage of the game ... I would imagine.

  gene/


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Re: F15 and GNOME 3

[Jóhann B. Guðmundsson]

On 04/05/2011 08:15 AM, JB wrote:

Fedora, by including GNOME 3 (or any other distro component) in its test
release, is effectively*endorsing*  it and expecting a feedback from users.
So, Fedora test list is the right place to talk about it (yes, in addition to
specific component's list as well)


No you are actually wrong here Gnome design and any other *DE or spin 
design flaws or praises should be mentioned on their relevant list 
within the project or upstream where all the relevant developers reside 
which can either answer your question(s) and or take note of what you say.


Adam ( or anyone else for that matter ) should not have to play 
messenger and collect feedback to pass to them when you or anyone else 
for that matter can pass your concern directly to them yourself.


JBG
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Re: F15 and GNOME 3

[JB]

Adam Williamson  redhat.com> writes:

> 
> On Mon, 2011-04-04 at 13:55 +, JB wrote:
> > JB  gmail.com> writes:
> > 
> > > ...
> > 
> > The business desktop end users are already puzzled when they see you coming
> > to work on roller skates and singing "La La La" 
> 
> I'm sorry to have to explain this, but your mails are completely off
> topic for this list, which is about testing - as in assuring the
> functionality of - Fedora. It is not about the design of upstream
> components of Fedora releases. The appropriate places to discuss the
> design of GNOME 3 would be the GNOME design IRC channel or the GNOME
> Shell mailing list, but as a bit of friendly advice, I would suggest
> that what you take to those places should be concrete proposals backed
> up with evidence or at least a consistent concept, not Grand
> Pronouncements That They're Doing It All Wrong. Those don't go down so
> well.
> ...

Adam,

The Lady protests too much ... ;-)

Fedora, by including GNOME 3 (or any other distro component) in its test
release, is effectively *endorsing* it and expecting a feedback from users.
So, Fedora test list is the right place to talk about it (yes, in addition to
specific component's list as well).

I expressed satisfaction about desktop responsiveness, which I ascribed
possibly to GNOME 3's architecture (what's under the hood) as well.
I may add that I liked the GUI graphics elements quality as well.

I expressed dissatisfaction with menuing system.
This is the "window" thru which users (most of them non technical) will access
your entire Fedora (and later RH Enterprise) product's functionality.

Fedora, by *edorsing* the above, made a mistake.
It can be undone (yes, it is a test version of both products, Fedora and
GNOME 3).

You, as a Fedora QA representative, lovingly calling yourself Community Monkey
with all that it implies, can and should collect and direct Fedora's and
users/testers' concerns to GNOME 3 devs as well. You can quote us, if
appropriate, when expressing your own views as well, regardless whether you
(dis)agree with or are unsure of them.

I find GNOME 3 menu system dysfunctional and an example of inexperience:
- do not hide main menu (what used to be in GNOME 2) under artificial and
  unnecessary top menu (Activities, etc) and work spaces, panes, windows, etc.
  Juggling between menus and various active windows feels like being a clown
  in a circus and juggling balls - we like to watch a clown, and laugh, she
  makes us feel better, but we would not like to be her, strangely ...
- do not split System functionality between System Settings under user icon's
  menu on the panel and System Tools under Activities - Applications (in
  particular if you include the former in the latter anyway)
- do not reinvent/redefine the meanings of computing terms that have been
  used as a standard for the last 20-30 years by all operating systems and
  desktop environments.
  The proper way already reflected in Gnome 2, where you have separate top
  menu selections: Applications, System, etc.
  It was done for a good reason, according to computing terms meanings,
  intuitively.
  Applications menu is understood to be end-user programs (database, office
  suit, various helper applications, etc).
  System menu is understood to be system administration programs
  (configuration, administration, inclusive of all resources and users).
- do not reinvent the wheel (menu system) that is already functional and
  accepted by end users, in particular if there is nothing of value or original
  in what you try to change or add

I say once again:
- restore the GNOME 2 menu system (Applications, System menu structure)
- restore the GNOME 2 panel functionality (menu, current windows and discovery
  of their focus/need-user-attention, top/bottom placement configuration, etc)

Deal ?
Then off to the races :-)

JB

Maria Callas - Bellini - Norma - Casta Diva

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X816MOcmG8s



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