Re: [Test-Announce] Join Fedora X Test Week - Nouveau, Radeon, Intel (2012-09-25 - 2012-09-27)
On 9/24/12 8:15 PM, John Reiser wrote: If it is known that any Radeon card less than Radeon 9600 won't work satisfactorily in the default Gnome3 desktop, then Fedora should admit it up front, and raise the minimum stated requirements. I'm sure the docs team takes patches. But also: that's not a thing we would know without running the very test day you're claiming is of no value. a) You're calling out a test you ran once nearly two years ago. Pretty sure we've fixed at least one RV200 bug since then. Please give a specific reference. Here are all the CLOSED bugs with RV200. I don't see a single one that is RV200-specific that was fixed after October 2010. Only 680651 and 493328 were fixed; the rest are "WONT FIX". 680651 is not specific to RV200, and 493328 was more than two years ago. Why do you expect every issue with a GPU is reported in Fedora's bugzilla? Or in a bugzilla at all? Or that every affected GPU is mentioned, if the bug affects class of GPUs? Bugzilla is a collection of stories. There's no reason to believe it's exhaustive. c) I'm fairly sure zero of the tests you've shown to fail there _do_ matter. They all happen when you do a Render operation directly to a window, and nobody does that. Drawing straight to a window is unbelievably flickery, that's why everybody buffers things up to an offscreen pixmap and then blits across to the window (using core CopyArea, not Render). When I run the anaconda installer for Fedora 18 Alpha, then I see bad _graphics_. It's not clear where the problems lie, and this is Alpha. Nevertheless, I expected better _graphics_. I think you meant this in response to this next point: Why do you feel this is relevant? X bugs are X bugs. In which case: that's a fine expectation, and your rant about Gnome fallback mode has _nothing to do with it_. Also forget about any card+monitor which does not report EDID/DCC. "Forget about broken hardware"? Yeah, please do. That hardware meets Fedora's minimum stated requirements [The requirements mention nothing about graphics hardware.] Furthermore, the hardware is merely old, not necessarily "broken". Just because the hardware pre-dates the feature does not automatically make it "broken". If EDID+DDC is a requirement, then say so. EDID isn't a requirement. Some method for detection of the display is a prerequisite for plug and play working. We would prefer that be EDID; if your platform uses something else then we can attempt to accomodate that. But if there's no PNP support we'll try to stumble along, so no, EDID is not strictly required. Nonetheless, hardware that can't plug and play in 2012 is broken. For DDC support in particular there is no excuse, that spec (and the first OS it was a logo requirement for) is old enough to get a driver's license by now. Making a point of documenting it is sort of like insisting that the computer should be powered by electricity. - ajax -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: [Test-Announce] Join Fedora X Test Week - Nouveau, Radeon, Intel (2012-09-25 - 2012-09-27)
On Tue, 2012-09-25 at 12:37 +1000, Ankur Sinha wrote: > On Mon, 2012-09-24 at 14:37 -0400, Martin Holec wrote: > > 2012-09-25 Nouveau - > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2012-09-25_Nouveau > > Hi folks, > > I was just looking to start the test for Nouveau. It appears the links > to the liveCDs aren't functional. Can someone please check them up once? > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2012-09-25_Nouveau#Live_image I haven't built them yet. I should probably do that, shouldn't I. And send out the announcements. Sigh. Somehow, I thought this wasn't happening till Thursday... -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: [Test-Announce] Join Fedora X Test Week - Nouveau, Radeon, Intel (2012-09-25 - 2012-09-27)
On Mon, 2012-09-24 at 14:37 -0400, Martin Holec wrote: > 2012-09-25 Nouveau - > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2012-09-25_Nouveau Hi folks, I was just looking to start the test for Nouveau. It appears the links to the liveCDs aren't functional. Can someone please check them up once? https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2012-09-25_Nouveau#Live_image -- Thanks, Warm regards, Ankur: "FranciscoD" Please only print if necessary. Looking to contribute to Fedora? Look here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Join_SIG http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Ankursinha http://dodoincfedora.wordpress.com/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: [Test-Announce] Join Fedora X Test Week - Nouveau, Radeon, Intel (2012-09-25 - 2012-09-27)
On Mon, 2012-09-24 at 17:29 -0700, John Reiser wrote: > >>> Gnome3 is not putting any effort into fallback mode. So my Radeon 9250 > >>> purchased new in 2006 as a mid-life upgrade for a box with 1.6GHz Pentium > >>> 4 > >>> (well above the Fedora minimum CPU) also runs only XFCE. Gnome3 forces > >>> fallback mode, where some Desktop features are *dropped* instead of > >>> emulated. > > >> Why do you feel this is relevant? X bugs are X bugs. > > > Right, this is mostly out of scope. The actual bug here is well-known, > > btw - there's a blacklist for adapters that do 3D but are known not to > > be capable of rendering Shell properly. Currently, if your card is on > > that blacklist, you wind up with fallback mode, but what we really want > > to happen is for it to fall back to software rendering, like it does on > > systems where there's no 3D capability at all. That's the bug here. As > > ajax says it's nothing to do with X or the X test days, it's a bug in > > the GNOME fallback logic. > > Please give a specific link to a bug report which contains a similarly- > succinct description, in order to make tracking easier. Thank you. I don't have one offhand - I know the GNOME team knows about it (one of them explained it to me in the first place), and it's not any kind of release-blocking issue, so I've never really needed to find The Bug, if there is one. I expect mclasen or drago01 would know where it is, though. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: [Test-Announce] Join Fedora X Test Week - Nouveau, Radeon, Intel (2012-09-25 - 2012-09-27)
>>> Gnome3 is not putting any effort into fallback mode. So my Radeon 9250 >>> purchased new in 2006 as a mid-life upgrade for a box with 1.6GHz Pentium 4 >>> (well above the Fedora minimum CPU) also runs only XFCE. Gnome3 forces >>> fallback mode, where some Desktop features are *dropped* instead of >>> emulated. >> Why do you feel this is relevant? X bugs are X bugs. > Right, this is mostly out of scope. The actual bug here is well-known, > btw - there's a blacklist for adapters that do 3D but are known not to > be capable of rendering Shell properly. Currently, if your card is on > that blacklist, you wind up with fallback mode, but what we really want > to happen is for it to fall back to software rendering, like it does on > systems where there's no 3D capability at all. That's the bug here. As > ajax says it's nothing to do with X or the X test days, it's a bug in > the GNOME fallback logic. Please give a specific link to a bug report which contains a similarly- succinct description, in order to make tracking easier. Thank you. -- -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: [Test-Announce] Join Fedora X Test Week - Nouveau, Radeon, Intel (2012-09-25 - 2012-09-27)
On 09/24/2012 02:59 PM, Adam Jackson wrote: > On Mon, 2012-09-24 at 13:30 -0700, John Reiser wrote: >>> Do you have any old or new graphic hardware, working or not? Join this test >>> week and help us to hunt down driver bugs before Fedora 18 Beta release! >> >> There is doubt about whether this particular test day is worth the time. > > You're free to doubt whatever you like, but the experiences you appear > to be citing as evidence are not especially relevant. Fedora graphics don't "just work" across the entire range of specified compatible hardware. The end-user experience is horrible for newcomers on low-end hardware which meets the listed requirements. Current requirements are: http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/17/html/Release_Notes/sect-Release_Notes-Welcome_to_Fedora_17.html#sect-Release_Notes-Hardware_Overview If it is known that any Radeon card less than Radeon 9600 won't work satisfactorily in the default Gnome3 desktop, then Fedora should admit it up front, and raise the minimum stated requirements. > >> At a minimum, don't bother with any Radeon card that is less than a Radeon >> 9600. >> Fedora pays no attention to bugs on such hardware, not even saying "Sorry, >> this >> hardware is too old; we will increase the minimum hardware requirement" or >> "This is hardware bug, and a software workaround is not feasible." For >> instance: >>radeon_rendercheck 152752 failures; pci:1002:5157 Radeon RV200 QW [Radeon >> 7500] >> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=638758 >>This card still is usable in XFCE. > > a) You're calling out a test you ran once nearly two years ago. Pretty > sure we've fixed at least one RV200 bug since then. Please give a specific reference. Here are all the CLOSED bugs with RV200. I don't see a single one that is RV200-specific that was fixed after October 2010. Only 680651 and 493328 were fixed; the rest are "WONT FIX". 680651 is not specific to RV200, and 493328 was more than two years ago. - 680651 Fedora xorg-x11-drv-atiairl...@redhat.com CLOSED ERRA [Redwood][RV280][RV200] oops Radeon ttm_bo_ref_bug 2011-06-25 638758 Fedora xorg-x11-drv-atijgli...@redhat.com CLOSED WONT radeon_rendercheck 152752 failures; pci:1002:5157 Radeon RV200 QW [Radeon 7500] 2012-08-16 583826 Fedora xorg-x11xgl-ma...@redhat.comCLOSED WONTF13 i686: Radeon RV200 - Firefox+NoScript in Release notes - Crash X in libc.so 2011-06-27 566970 Fedora xorg-x11-drv-atijgli...@redhat.com CLOSED WONT KMS:RV200|M7:7500 Npviewer segfaults and restarts Xorg 2010-12-03 549622 Fedora kernel kernel-ma...@redhat.com CLOSED NOTAWhen an external monitor is connected to RV200 video card, KMS fails. 2009-12-22 547598 Fedora xorg-x11-drv-atixgl-ma...@redhat.comCLOSED DUPL KMS:RV200:M7:7500 resolution switching doesn't work 2010-07-21 533615 Fedora xorg-x11-drv-atijgli...@redhat.com CLOSED WONT KMS:Rv200|M7:7500:Mesa fonts rendering issues and gnome-shell blackness 2010-12-03 533314 Fedora xorg-x11-drv-atijgli...@redhat.com CLOSED CURR KMS:RV200:7500 Graphics corruption (LVDS wrong reg programming ?) 2010-03-12 493328 Fedora xorg-x11-drv-atiairl...@redhat.com CLOSED ERRA KMS:RV200:7500:MESA Compiz: corrupted menu borders 2010-01-13 446596 Fedora kernel kernel-ma...@redhat.com CLOSED WONT framebuffer & video mode selection Radeon RV200, EDID pb? 2009-07-14 - > > b) rendercheck is just a test battery. Passing all of its tests is not > necessarily a prerequisite for correct rendering of any desktop; if you > don't hit cases that fail, you'd never notice they were broken. Nevertheless, known failures in a designated test case should be listed and explained, whether "hardware is confirmed to be buggy", or "Gnome3 Desktop never uses this drawing mode", or ... (or "We don't know why".) > > c) I'm fairly sure zero of the tests you've shown to fail there _do_ > matter. They all happen when you do a Render operation directly to a > window, and nobody does that. Drawing straight to a window is > unbelievably flickery, that's why everybody buffers things up to an > offscreen pixmap and then blits across to the window (using core > CopyArea, not Render). When I run the anaconda installer for Fedora 18 Alpha, then I see bad _graphics_. It's not clear where the problems lie, and this is Alpha. Nevertheless, I expected better _graphics_. > >> Gnome3 is not putting any effort into fallback mode. So my Radeon 9250 >> purchased new in 2006 as a mid-life upgrade for a box with 1.6GHz Pentium 4 >> (well above the Fedora minimum CPU) also runs only XFCE. Gnome3 forces >> fallback mode, where some Desktop features are *dropped* instead of emulated. > > Why do you feel this is relevant? X bugs are X bugs. > >> Also forget about
Re: [Test-Announce] Join Fedora X Test Week - Nouveau, Radeon, Intel (2012-09-25 - 2012-09-27)
On Mon, 2012-09-24 at 17:59 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote: > On Mon, 2012-09-24 at 13:30 -0700, John Reiser wrote: > > > Do you have any old or new graphic hardware, working or not? Join this > > > test week and help us to hunt down driver bugs before Fedora 18 Beta > > > release! > > > > There is doubt about whether this particular test day is worth the time. > > You're free to doubt whatever you like, but the experiences you appear > to be citing as evidence are not especially relevant. > > > At a minimum, don't bother with any Radeon card that is less than a Radeon > > 9600. > > Fedora pays no attention to bugs on such hardware, not even saying "Sorry, > > this > > hardware is too old; we will increase the minimum hardware requirement" or > > "This is hardware bug, and a software workaround is not feasible." For > > instance: > >radeon_rendercheck 152752 failures; pci:1002:5157 Radeon RV200 QW > > [Radeon 7500] > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=638758 > >This card still is usable in XFCE. > > a) You're calling out a test you ran once nearly two years ago. Pretty > sure we've fixed at least one RV200 bug since then. > > b) rendercheck is just a test battery. Passing all of its tests is not > necessarily a prerequisite for correct rendering of any desktop; if you > don't hit cases that fail, you'd never notice they were broken. > > c) I'm fairly sure zero of the tests you've shown to fail there _do_ > matter. They all happen when you do a Render operation directly to a > window, and nobody does that. Drawing straight to a window is > unbelievably flickery, that's why everybody buffers things up to an > offscreen pixmap and then blits across to the window (using core > CopyArea, not Render). We added the rendercheck test to the list just to provide the data for you folks (X devs) to look through if you thought it might be useful. I'll see if I can do something (more) on the test day pages to indicate that failures in rendercheck aren't always bugs per se and not to worry too much if some of the tests fail, and that it's not usually necessary to open a bug just for rendercheck failing. > > Gnome3 is not putting any effort into fallback mode. So my Radeon 9250 > > purchased new in 2006 as a mid-life upgrade for a box with 1.6GHz Pentium 4 > > (well above the Fedora minimum CPU) also runs only XFCE. Gnome3 forces > > fallback mode, where some Desktop features are *dropped* instead of > > emulated. > > Why do you feel this is relevant? X bugs are X bugs. Right, this is mostly out of scope. The actual bug here is well-known, btw - there's a blacklist for adapters that do 3D but are known not to be capable of rendering Shell properly. Currently, if your card is on that blacklist, you wind up with fallback mode, but what we really want to happen is for it to fall back to software rendering, like it does on systems where there's no 3D capability at all. That's the bug here. As ajax says it's nothing to do with X or the X test days, it's a bug in the GNOME fallback logic. Ajax replied to your specific points, but there's an underlying general point, and here it is: not all bugs reported as part of Test Days will be fixed. Even some 'valid' ones will probably wind up withering. It's unfortunate but for zillions of reasons - each individual case has an explanation, as the specific examples cited here show - it happens. We don't expect 100% response rate for Test Day bugs, it'd be unrealistic. I'd only be worried if the rate was extremely low or dropping fast. Since X Test Week is a large and regularly repeated event it's actually possible to look at those numbers, and indeed we do: I post a statistical breakdown of various things, including a look at the outcome of the filed bugs, after each Test Day. Look through the archives for these posts: "Very belated 2011-09 Graphics Test Week recap" - Wed, 30 Nov 2011 11:41:20 -0800 "2011-02 Graphics Test Week recap" - Thu, 03 Mar 2011 03:22:49 + "2010-09 Graphics Test Week recap" - Tue, 05 Oct 2010 14:50:19 -0700 "2010-04-13 to 2010-04-15 Graphics Test Week recap" - Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:11:55 -0700 In the 2011-09 one you can see the numbers for what's happened to all the bugs reported in all the test days from Fedora 11 cycle through Fedora 15 cycle. They go up and down, but there isn't any clear worrying trend there, and a decent number of bugs was fixed in almost every cycle. As long as that's happening, the event has value. From the F15 cycle, in total across all three test days, 123 bugs were reported, 34 were closed as 'fixed'...fixing 34 bugs isn't a bad outcome from such an event, I don't think. (if you're wondering where the F16 numbers are - they would have been in the recap for the f17 X test week, but there was no f17 X test week because I never quite got around to running it. I'll do the f16 numbers in the f18 test week recap.) -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fe
Re: [Test-Announce] Join Fedora X Test Week - Nouveau, Radeon, Intel (2012-09-25 - 2012-09-27)
On Mon, 2012-09-24 at 13:30 -0700, John Reiser wrote: > > Do you have any old or new graphic hardware, working or not? Join this test > > week and help us to hunt down driver bugs before Fedora 18 Beta release! > > There is doubt about whether this particular test day is worth the time. You're free to doubt whatever you like, but the experiences you appear to be citing as evidence are not especially relevant. > At a minimum, don't bother with any Radeon card that is less than a Radeon > 9600. > Fedora pays no attention to bugs on such hardware, not even saying "Sorry, > this > hardware is too old; we will increase the minimum hardware requirement" or > "This is hardware bug, and a software workaround is not feasible." For > instance: >radeon_rendercheck 152752 failures; pci:1002:5157 Radeon RV200 QW [Radeon > 7500] > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=638758 >This card still is usable in XFCE. a) You're calling out a test you ran once nearly two years ago. Pretty sure we've fixed at least one RV200 bug since then. b) rendercheck is just a test battery. Passing all of its tests is not necessarily a prerequisite for correct rendering of any desktop; if you don't hit cases that fail, you'd never notice they were broken. c) I'm fairly sure zero of the tests you've shown to fail there _do_ matter. They all happen when you do a Render operation directly to a window, and nobody does that. Drawing straight to a window is unbelievably flickery, that's why everybody buffers things up to an offscreen pixmap and then blits across to the window (using core CopyArea, not Render). > Gnome3 is not putting any effort into fallback mode. So my Radeon 9250 > purchased new in 2006 as a mid-life upgrade for a box with 1.6GHz Pentium 4 > (well above the Fedora minimum CPU) also runs only XFCE. Gnome3 forces > fallback mode, where some Desktop features are *dropped* instead of emulated. Why do you feel this is relevant? X bugs are X bugs. > Also forget about any card+monitor which does not report EDID/DCC. "Forget about broken hardware"? Yeah, please do. > The Xorg.0.log > may note the true resolution of the panel (for instance, 1024x768), but the > driver > gives only 800x600: >rage128 uses 800x600 resolution for LCD panel with 1024x768 native > resolution > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=493441 Your comparison between F17 and F18 therein is interesting but a bit off the mark. In F17 you're using vesa for some reason; in F18 you're not. > The nouveau driver also ignores reports, even on current-generation cards. > For instance: >glxgears framerate 12X faster than video refresh > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=639415 vsync support isn't something nouveau has always done. But it turns out things have gotten a lot better since F15; I really wouldn't take a report of this vintage as indicative of how well things currently work. - ajax signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: [Test-Announce] Join Fedora X Test Week - Nouveau, Radeon, Intel (2012-09-25 - 2012-09-27)
> Do you have any old or new graphic hardware, working or not? Join this test > week and help us to hunt down driver bugs before Fedora 18 Beta release! There is doubt about whether this particular test day is worth the time. At a minimum, don't bother with any Radeon card that is less than a Radeon 9600. Fedora pays no attention to bugs on such hardware, not even saying "Sorry, this hardware is too old; we will increase the minimum hardware requirement" or "This is hardware bug, and a software workaround is not feasible." For instance: radeon_rendercheck 152752 failures; pci:1002:5157 Radeon RV200 QW [Radeon 7500] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=638758 This card still is usable in XFCE. Gnome3 is not putting any effort into fallback mode. So my Radeon 9250 purchased new in 2006 as a mid-life upgrade for a box with 1.6GHz Pentium 4 (well above the Fedora minimum CPU) also runs only XFCE. Gnome3 forces fallback mode, where some Desktop features are *dropped* instead of emulated. Also forget about any card+monitor which does not report EDID/DCC. The Xorg.0.log may note the true resolution of the panel (for instance, 1024x768), but the driver gives only 800x600: rage128 uses 800x600 resolution for LCD panel with 1024x768 native resolution https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=493441 The nouveau driver also ignores reports, even on current-generation cards. For instance: glxgears framerate 12X faster than video refresh https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=639415 -- -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
[Test-Announce] Join Fedora X Test Week - Nouveau, Radeon, Intel (2012-09-25 - 2012-09-27)
Hello, this Tuesday starts Fedora X Test Week which is one of the most popular testing events among Fedora users and developers. Do you have any old or new graphic hardware, working or not? Join this test week and help us to hunt down driver bugs before Fedora 18 Beta release! For more informations how to attend this test week, look at the following schedule: 2012-09-25 Nouveau - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2012-09-25_Nouveau 2012-09-26 Radeon - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2012-09-26_Radeon 2012-09-27 Intel - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2012-09-27_Intel Join IRC #fedora-test-day on FreeNode and ask QA or developers for help, if you get into trouble. We can try to find workarounds and help with debugging. Please report all bugs at http://bugzilla.redhat.com/ under appropriate component. You can also report other Fedora 18 bugs not related to this Test Week, ask QA, if you don't know against which component you should fill the report. See you in Bugzilla! Best Regards, Martin Holec Desktop QE, Red Hat Brno -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
