Re: New Anaconda - BACK, BACK, BACK...
On 2012-09-13 14:08, Mateusz Marzantowicz wrote: On 13.09.2012 22:02, David Lehman wrote: On Thu, 2012-09-13 at 15:00 +0200, Mateusz Marzantowicz wrote: Hey! I've been playing with new Anaconda since Alpha RC2 and I have some doubts about whole concept of this sub pages with configuration options and jumping around them. You can indulge your doubts or you can adapt. It's up to you. I recommend the latter. Why, the hell user has to pres BACK each time he made some decision or configuration change? Personally I prefer pressing NEXT because this reminds me what the goal is (working system installation) and that I'm going to reach it sooner or later. It looks like some Fedora designers prefer to step backward then going forward to achieve what the installer was created for: Working Fedora system installation. It's just a different model. Instead a long linear progression in which every user must visit every page/step, you only visit those sections that require your attention. It will save time for most users. You will be pleased to find (in the Beta) that we have changed the wording of some of the buttons to improve clarity. Please, don't tell me that this is because configuration could be done in parallel and it's for my convenience and to give me the choice which aspect of installation I prefer to configure first. Maybe it's good for advanced users but for dumb average computer guy this introduced lot of instability and is not intuitive. If by "intuitive" you mean "the same as the old interface" then I must agree. Otherwise, I think you are just trying to hold on to what you know. Thanks for your reply. I know that new anaconda is different than old one. I really have nothing against changes and I think I'll quickly adapt. My only concern is new, and in my opinion not so intuitive, naming and proceeding convention by which Fedora 18 is installed. In my typical case, I had to touch every single spoke in the new installer, so I gained nothing. Only English speaking people can forget about configuring language and keyboard layout. Taking number of different time zones in US, we'll quickly find that majority of people will need to change this too. No need to say about disk layout which is more or less customized or at last reviewed by everyone (excluding unattended installations). Silently allowing people to leave root password not set is also bad idea in my opinion. I know what root account is and from previous Fedora releases I also know that I either must have a root account or user in admin group. But in new installer this is not so clear until firstboot is run (where, there is no correspondence to choices from anaconda). There is no clear explanation why should I leave root empty and that I'll be asked for adding user to admin group later. Once again, thanks for all great work, you and other anaconda devels have done. I'll try to accept as much new features as I can. In my opinion, even if you have to complete every step, a hub and spoke design (which is what newUI is) is fundamentally more appropriate if the idea is to allow changes to be done in any order and revised at any time. A wizard design is more appropriate if the process needs to be done in a specific order and you're not often expected to change things once you've picked them. I find a wizard design with 'back' options pretty awkward, especially when changes to particular steps of the wizard can affect other steps. It just doesn't suit the process very well. Hub-and-spoke handles this much better. It is the case for anaconda - for instance, changes on the package selection spoke can affect the partitioning spoke, by changing the amount of disk space required for the installation. Wizards are best for simple step-by-step processes. As David said, the anaconda team has already agreed that the term 'Back' isn't a good one to use for the 'I'm done with this spoke and now I want to return to the hub' action, and it'll change for Beta. I think the plan is to use 'Done' in most cases, but anyway, it's going to be improved. look out for the Beta images to see the change. The handling of root password setting is also temporary for Alpha, it's not the final design. It's just enough to avoid the worst case scenarios we noticed for Alpha. Originally there was no root password spoke at all, but the problem with that is that there's no firstboot and hence no pre-login user creation step on non-desktop installs; the root spoke is basically just a workaround for the case of a non-desktop install, so you can set a root password and actually be able to login to such a system after install. For Beta and Final the intent is to handle the various possible cases more elegantly, though I don't know the details. In general, don't assume the design of anything in newUI in Alpha is exactly how it's intended to be in Final. If you think you see a problem in the design, by all means report it,
Re: New Anaconda - BACK, BACK, BACK...
On Thu, 2012-09-13 at 23:08 +0200, Mateusz Marzantowicz wrote: > On 13.09.2012 22:02, David Lehman wrote: > > On Thu, 2012-09-13 at 15:00 +0200, Mateusz Marzantowicz wrote: > >> Hey! > >> > >> I've been playing with new Anaconda since Alpha RC2 and I have some > >> doubts about whole concept of this sub pages with configuration options > >> and jumping around them. > > You can indulge your doubts or you can adapt. It's up to you. I > > recommend the latter. > > > >> Why, the hell user has to pres BACK each time he made some decision or > >> configuration change? Personally I prefer pressing NEXT because this > >> reminds me what the goal is (working system installation) and that I'm > >> going to reach it sooner or later. > >> > >> It looks like some Fedora designers prefer to step backward then going > >> forward to achieve what the installer was created for: Working Fedora > >> system installation. > > It's just a different model. Instead a long linear progression in which > > every user must visit every page/step, you only visit those sections > > that require your attention. It will save time for most users. > > > > You will be pleased to find (in the Beta) that we have changed the > > wording of some of the buttons to improve clarity. > > > >> Please, don't tell me that this is because configuration could be done > >> in parallel and it's for my convenience and to give me the choice which > >> aspect of installation I prefer to configure first. Maybe it's good for > >> advanced users but for dumb average computer guy this introduced lot of > >> instability and is not intuitive. > > If by "intuitive" you mean "the same as the old interface" then I must > > agree. Otherwise, I think you are just trying to hold on to what you > > know. > > > > > > Thanks for your reply. I know that new anaconda is different than old > one. I really have nothing against changes and I think I'll quickly > adapt. My only concern is new, and in my opinion not so intuitive, > naming and proceeding convention by which Fedora 18 is installed. > > In my typical case, I had to touch every single spoke in the new > installer, so I gained nothing. Only English speaking people can forget > about configuring language and keyboard layout. Taking number of > different time zones in US, we'll quickly find that majority of people > will need to change this too. No need to say about disk layout which is > more or less customized or at last reviewed by everyone (excluding > unattended installations). > > Silently allowing people to leave root password not set is also bad idea > in my opinion. I know what root account is and from previous Fedora > releases I also know that I either must have a root account or user in > admin group. But in new installer this is not so clear until firstboot > is run (where, there is no correspondence to choices from anaconda). > There is no clear explanation why should I leave root empty and that > I'll be asked for adding user to admin group later. > > Once again, thanks for all great work, you and other anaconda devels > have done. I'll try to accept as much new features as I can. Thanks. This is only alpha, and you will already notice significant improvements in the first Beta trees. We still have lots of refinements to make, but things are progressing rapidly. David -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: New Anaconda - BACK, BACK, BACK...
On 13.09.2012 22:02, David Lehman wrote: > On Thu, 2012-09-13 at 15:00 +0200, Mateusz Marzantowicz wrote: >> Hey! >> >> I've been playing with new Anaconda since Alpha RC2 and I have some >> doubts about whole concept of this sub pages with configuration options >> and jumping around them. > You can indulge your doubts or you can adapt. It's up to you. I > recommend the latter. > >> Why, the hell user has to pres BACK each time he made some decision or >> configuration change? Personally I prefer pressing NEXT because this >> reminds me what the goal is (working system installation) and that I'm >> going to reach it sooner or later. >> >> It looks like some Fedora designers prefer to step backward then going >> forward to achieve what the installer was created for: Working Fedora >> system installation. > It's just a different model. Instead a long linear progression in which > every user must visit every page/step, you only visit those sections > that require your attention. It will save time for most users. > > You will be pleased to find (in the Beta) that we have changed the > wording of some of the buttons to improve clarity. > >> Please, don't tell me that this is because configuration could be done >> in parallel and it's for my convenience and to give me the choice which >> aspect of installation I prefer to configure first. Maybe it's good for >> advanced users but for dumb average computer guy this introduced lot of >> instability and is not intuitive. > If by "intuitive" you mean "the same as the old interface" then I must > agree. Otherwise, I think you are just trying to hold on to what you > know. > > Thanks for your reply. I know that new anaconda is different than old one. I really have nothing against changes and I think I'll quickly adapt. My only concern is new, and in my opinion not so intuitive, naming and proceeding convention by which Fedora 18 is installed. In my typical case, I had to touch every single spoke in the new installer, so I gained nothing. Only English speaking people can forget about configuring language and keyboard layout. Taking number of different time zones in US, we'll quickly find that majority of people will need to change this too. No need to say about disk layout which is more or less customized or at last reviewed by everyone (excluding unattended installations). Silently allowing people to leave root password not set is also bad idea in my opinion. I know what root account is and from previous Fedora releases I also know that I either must have a root account or user in admin group. But in new installer this is not so clear until firstboot is run (where, there is no correspondence to choices from anaconda). There is no clear explanation why should I leave root empty and that I'll be asked for adding user to admin group later. Once again, thanks for all great work, you and other anaconda devels have done. I'll try to accept as much new features as I can. Mateusz Marzantowicz -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: New Anaconda - BACK, BACK, BACK...
On Thu, 2012-09-13 at 15:00 +0200, Mateusz Marzantowicz wrote: > Hey! > > I've been playing with new Anaconda since Alpha RC2 and I have some > doubts about whole concept of this sub pages with configuration options > and jumping around them. You can indulge your doubts or you can adapt. It's up to you. I recommend the latter. > > Why, the hell user has to pres BACK each time he made some decision or > configuration change? Personally I prefer pressing NEXT because this > reminds me what the goal is (working system installation) and that I'm > going to reach it sooner or later. > > It looks like some Fedora designers prefer to step backward then going > forward to achieve what the installer was created for: Working Fedora > system installation. It's just a different model. Instead a long linear progression in which every user must visit every page/step, you only visit those sections that require your attention. It will save time for most users. You will be pleased to find (in the Beta) that we have changed the wording of some of the buttons to improve clarity. > > Please, don't tell me that this is because configuration could be done > in parallel and it's for my convenience and to give me the choice which > aspect of installation I prefer to configure first. Maybe it's good for > advanced users but for dumb average computer guy this introduced lot of > instability and is not intuitive. If by "intuitive" you mean "the same as the old interface" then I must agree. Otherwise, I think you are just trying to hold on to what you know. -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: New Anaconda - BACK, BACK, BACK...
On 13.09.2012 17:19, Lars Seipel wrote: > On Thursday 13 September 2012 15:00:06 Mateusz Marzantowicz wrote: > >> Please, don't tell me that this is because configuration could be done >> in parallel and it's for my convenience and to give me the choice which >> aspect of installation I prefer to configure first. > That's not what it's about (IMHO). The nice thing with the new installer UI > is > that you can reconsider a choice without having to think about losing all the > other settings you've done afterwards. Having "standard" wizard with next and prev buttons gives exactly the same result. If you realize that you've chosen the wrong language after configuring time zone you should always have an option to correct that setting. There is no reason why independent configuration options should not be changeable at any point in the installer. > I can imagine that especially your "dumb average computer guy" would > appreciate this. Sorry, for this unpleasant term, I used it to distinguish between "advanced Fedora developer" and other Linux user that wants to play with Linux. Introducing to much choices only complicate things, because user must change most if not all options in new Anaconda. Mateusz Marzantowicz -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: New Anaconda - BACK, BACK, BACK...
On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 9:07 PM, Carl G wrote: > "Continue" by going "Back" would be confusing, no? > > A "review your options before proceeding w. the install" screen could be > introduced instead? > > 2012/9/13 Chris Adams >> >> Once upon a time, Dan Vratil said: >> > For me "Back" is associated more with "revert" or "undo" action. I think >> > the >> > button should say something like "Back to menu" or even better "Save and >> > return to menu" so that even "dumb average computer guy" can understand >> > that >> > he/she won't lost the settings made on the current page. Or in other >> > words, it >> > should somehow indicate that it's a confirmation of the changes. >> >> Maybe "Continue"? >> -- Its there in bugzilla https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=854881 >> Chris Adams >> Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services >> I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. >> -- >> test mailing list >> test@lists.fedoraproject.org >> To unsubscribe: >> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test > > > > -- > test mailing list > test@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe: > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test -- Akshay vyas (http://www.gofedora.in) -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: New Anaconda - BACK, BACK, BACK...
"Continue" by going "Back" would be confusing, no? A "review your options before proceeding w. the install" screen could be introduced instead? 2012/9/13 Chris Adams > Once upon a time, Dan Vratil said: > > For me "Back" is associated more with "revert" or "undo" action. I think > the > > button should say something like "Back to menu" or even better "Save and > > return to menu" so that even "dumb average computer guy" can understand > that > > he/she won't lost the settings made on the current page. Or in other > words, it > > should somehow indicate that it's a confirmation of the changes. > > Maybe "Continue"? > -- > Chris Adams > Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services > I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. > -- > test mailing list > test@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe: > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test > -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: New Anaconda - BACK, BACK, BACK...
> Hey! > > I've been playing with new Anaconda since Alpha RC2 and I have some > doubts about whole concept of this sub pages with configuration > options > and jumping around them. > > Why, the hell user has to pres BACK each time he made some decision > or > configuration change? Personally I prefer pressing NEXT because this > reminds me what the goal is (working system installation) and that > I'm > going to reach it sooner or later. Hello, this is not a bug per se, it's just a general improvement idea. You better send it to anaconda-devel list or create a bugzilla entry about it, anaconda developers don't follow this list closely. Thanks. -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: New Anaconda - BACK, BACK, BACK...
Once upon a time, Dan Vratil said: > For me "Back" is associated more with "revert" or "undo" action. I think the > button should say something like "Back to menu" or even better "Save and > return to menu" so that even "dumb average computer guy" can understand that > he/she won't lost the settings made on the current page. Or in other words, > it > should somehow indicate that it's a confirmation of the changes. Maybe "Continue"? -- Chris Adams Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: New Anaconda - BACK, BACK, BACK...
On Thursday 13 of September 2012 17:19:26 Lars Seipel wrote: > On Thursday 13 September 2012 15:00:06 Mateusz Marzantowicz wrote: > > Please, don't tell me that this is because configuration could be done > > in parallel and it's for my convenience and to give me the choice which > > aspect of installation I prefer to configure first. > > That's not what it's about (IMHO). The nice thing with the new installer UI > is that you can reconsider a choice without having to think about losing > all the other settings you've done afterwards. For me "Back" is associated more with "revert" or "undo" action. I think the button should say something like "Back to menu" or even better "Save and return to menu" so that even "dumb average computer guy" can understand that he/she won't lost the settings made on the current page. Or in other words, it should somehow indicate that it's a confirmation of the changes. > > I can imagine that especially your "dumb average computer guy" would > appreciate this. /me do :) Dan > > Lars -- dvra...@redhat.com | Associate Software Engineer / BaseOS / KDE, Qt GPG Key: 0xC59D614F6F4AE348 Fingerprint: 4EC1 86E3 C54E 0B39 5FDD B5FB C59D 614F 6F4A E348 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: New Anaconda - BACK, BACK, BACK...
On Thursday 13 September 2012 15:00:06 Mateusz Marzantowicz wrote: > Please, don't tell me that this is because configuration could be done > in parallel and it's for my convenience and to give me the choice which > aspect of installation I prefer to configure first. That's not what it's about (IMHO). The nice thing with the new installer UI is that you can reconsider a choice without having to think about losing all the other settings you've done afterwards. I can imagine that especially your "dumb average computer guy" would appreciate this. Lars -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: New Anaconda - BACK, BACK, BACK...
On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 3:56 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On 09/13/2012 06:30 PM, Mateusz Marzantowicz wrote: > >> Please, don't tell me that this is because configuration could be done >> in parallel and it's for my convenience and to give me the choice which >> aspect of installation I prefer to configure first. Maybe it's good for >> advanced users but for dumb average computer guy this introduced lot of >> instability and is not intuitive. > > "Dumb average computer guy" needn't go into any of the spokes. Right? Keyboard layout? -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: New Anaconda - BACK, BACK, BACK...
On 09/13/2012 06:30 PM, Mateusz Marzantowicz wrote: > Please, don't tell me that this is because configuration could be done > in parallel and it's for my convenience and to give me the choice which > aspect of installation I prefer to configure first. Maybe it's good for > advanced users but for dumb average computer guy this introduced lot of > instability and is not intuitive. "Dumb average computer guy" needn't go into any of the spokes. Right? Rahul -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
New Anaconda - BACK, BACK, BACK...
Hey! I've been playing with new Anaconda since Alpha RC2 and I have some doubts about whole concept of this sub pages with configuration options and jumping around them. Why, the hell user has to pres BACK each time he made some decision or configuration change? Personally I prefer pressing NEXT because this reminds me what the goal is (working system installation) and that I'm going to reach it sooner or later. It looks like some Fedora designers prefer to step backward then going forward to achieve what the installer was created for: Working Fedora system installation. Please, don't tell me that this is because configuration could be done in parallel and it's for my convenience and to give me the choice which aspect of installation I prefer to configure first. Maybe it's good for advanced users but for dumb average computer guy this introduced lot of instability and is not intuitive. Mateusz Marzantowicz -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
