Re: f 16 beta in virtualbox
On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 19:49 +0200, Lars Seipel wrote: > On Tue, 2011-10-04 at 20:45 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > Sure. But explain it accurately. Sometimes Fedora has a pre-release X > > server, sure. But sometimes it has a released one, and Oracle still > > don't support it. And the big roadblock is the guest additions being > > closed source, or else we could just update them ourselves. > > Are you sure they are not open source? They don't care about pushing > anything upstream but the guest additions are still free software AFAIR. > Debian is packaging them, I think. There was something about their > scripts for generating the ISO images and maybe their installer being > closed, though. > > Just took a quick glance and their SVN repo seems to contain something > that looks like the corresponding code. > > https://www.virtualbox.org/browser/trunk/src/VBox/Additions > > Nevertheless, using Virtualbox with bleeding edge kernels or recent > x.org versions is just a big pain. Hum, looks like you're right. I did some searching before writing that and couldn't find any reference to the GA being open, but I missed that. So hey, when new X versions come out, anyone can patch the GA to support them. I wonder if there'll be a VirtualBox-any-any somewhere sometime soon. =) -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: f 16 beta in virtualbox
On Tue, 2011-10-04 at 20:45 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > Sure. But explain it accurately. Sometimes Fedora has a pre-release X > server, sure. But sometimes it has a released one, and Oracle still > don't support it. And the big roadblock is the guest additions being > closed source, or else we could just update them ourselves. Are you sure they are not open source? They don't care about pushing anything upstream but the guest additions are still free software AFAIR. Debian is packaging them, I think. There was something about their scripts for generating the ISO images and maybe their installer being closed, though. Just took a quick glance and their SVN repo seems to contain something that looks like the corresponding code. https://www.virtualbox.org/browser/trunk/src/VBox/Additions Nevertheless, using Virtualbox with bleeding edge kernels or recent x.org versions is just a big pain. Lars -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: f 16 beta in virtualbox
On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 11:43 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 11:32 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote: > > RANDR 1.2 has the ability to set arbitrary video modes at runtime. I > > admit Gnome's display tool doesn't expose that, but I'm comfortable > > saying that's Gnome's bug. > > What does 'arbitrary video modes' mean here, roll-your-own-modelines ? > If so, not exposing that is not a bug, but a feature. If you are saying > that there are nice, available modes that we could show in the > resolution combo, but missing for some reason, then yes, that would be a > bug. Neither of those cases, really. The problem space here is when there's not "available modes" on a particular output, usually in the no-EDID case. It's reasonable there to be have the tool be able to generate timings (call out to cvt(1) for instance, or just copy them out of the xserver's DMT mode list), test applying them to the output, and remember the preference for them when that output is connected but sans EDID. This is something of an "Advanced..." button, I admit. But it's state that belongs in the same stream as what the display capplet already does. Actually, now that I've mentioned it, there could be some value in having RANDR expose the pre-built mode lists in the server, which would remove the need for Gnome to know how to generate things. - ajax signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: f 16 beta in virtualbox
On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 11:32 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote: > On Tue, 2011-10-04 at 20:04 -0400, David wrote: > > > There are some users that have older monitors that to not identify > > themselves so that the resolution is not properly set. With a true > > install or an install in a VDI. *Most* of those can never be set to > > higher resolutions because system-config-display was killed. Even after > > the proper video drivers for Virtualbox are built. That is the connection. > > RANDR 1.2 has the ability to set arbitrary video modes at runtime. I > admit Gnome's display tool doesn't expose that, but I'm comfortable > saying that's Gnome's bug. What does 'arbitrary video modes' mean here, roll-your-own-modelines ? If so, not exposing that is not a bug, but a feature. If you are saying that there are nice, available modes that we could show in the resolution combo, but missing for some reason, then yes, that would be a bug. Matthias -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: f 16 beta in virtualbox
On Tue, 2011-10-04 at 20:04 -0400, David wrote: > There are some users that have older monitors that to not identify > themselves so that the resolution is not properly set. With a true > install or an install in a VDI. *Most* of those can never be set to > higher resolutions because system-config-display was killed. Even after > the proper video drivers for Virtualbox are built. That is the connection. RANDR 1.2 has the ability to set arbitrary video modes at runtime. I admit Gnome's display tool doesn't expose that, but I'm comfortable saying that's Gnome's bug. - ajax signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: f 16 beta in virtualbox
On Tue, 2011-10-04 at 23:03 -0400, David wrote: > > A more accurate description of the situation is 'Oracle will update > > VBox's guest additions to support new X.org releases as and when it damn > > well pleases, and as said guest additions are closed source, everyone > > else is tied to Oracle's schedule'. > > > Point taken. But? They don't support Fedora development. So Adam here > is where explain this the the OP. Sure. But explain it accurately. Sometimes Fedora has a pre-release X server, sure. But sometimes it has a released one, and Oracle still don't support it. And the big roadblock is the guest additions being closed source, or else we could just update them ourselves. > > "Can never"? Hardly. It's perfectly possible to do it in xorg.conf. It's > > just that no-one feels particularly inclined to maintain a GUI tweak > > tool for xorg.conf any more. > > > What you need to do Adam is listen to the many disadvantaged Linux users > that don't have 'shiny new hardware'. And then *you* say -- 'Let they > eat cake'. Pretty much, yes. > Fits dude. Linux has *always* claimed that 'we run on anything'. And > that no longer fits. And now all *you* have to do is to single out just > what Linux does not run on any more and explain it to them. Fedora is not 'Linux'. Some people make this claim on behalf of Linux. Some distributions of Linux intentionally make such claims. Fedora doesn't and never has. It's not anywhere in Fedora's publicity. Please feel free to point out where Fedora claims to run especially well on old hardware. And if we're talking about r128 graphics cards, make no mistake, we're talking *old* hardware. https://fedoraproject.org/en/features/ https://fedoraproject.org/en/about-fedora https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Foundations (especially read First) https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Vision_statement https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_base None of those says anything at all about Fedora working specifically to support old hardware. Fedora has never been a project that is particularly about that. Fedora is about pushing forward the capabilities of free software, as the 'First' foundation indicates. system-config-display required a significant investment of development time on the part of Fedora's X maintainers. At a certain point they felt hardware detection in X had advanced to the point where it was more productive to devote that development time to other areas of X work than to maintaining s-c-d. No-one else decided they wanted to spend their time maintaining s-c-d, and so no-one does. Maintaining such a tool isn't free, it requires considerable time, and no-one involved with Fedora apparently feels that it's worth investing the necessary time to maintain that tool. In general, this aligns quite accurately with Fedora's principles. > When I started with Linux it was Red Hat 5.2 and Mandrake 6.0. And all > the way to today Mageia and Mandrake can still find that really old, no > longer used but still works, CRT monitor, decide what it it, and > configure it properly. > > And Fedora has, as far back as i can recall, long before you left > Mandriva and cam here, fedora does a 'duh' and does not configure that > same monitor. Fedora and Mandriva (and Mageia) are different projects with different goals and different priorities. It doesn't really provide much value to draw this kind of comparison between them. (I can tell you that maintaining the database MDV uses for graphics card detection was a huge time sink - it would take me 20-30 hours of work per release cycle - and I *often* found myself wondering if my time wouldn't better be invested elsewhere. But MDV, for commercial reasons, needs to support the NVIDIA proprietary driver, so there wasn't a whole lot of choice. Someone else maintains it now, and I pity the poor sucker.) -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: f 16 beta in virtualbox
On 10/4/2011 10:30 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Tue, 2011-10-04 at 20:04 -0400, David wrote: >> On 10/4/2011 10:51 AM, Adam Jackson wrote: >>> On Mon, 2011-10-03 at 17:03 -0400, David wrote: >>> The 'advanced graphics' video feature in Virtualbox seldom works in Rawhide and the current 'branched' package (currently Fedora 16) because Virtualbox does not support alpha/beta/non-release versions of Xorg. >>> >>> F16 has xserver 1.11.1. I don't know how much more "released" you want >>> it to be. >> >> >> Virtualbox has said that they do not chase development software. >> >> As long as Rawhide has some Xorg that is *not* the current stable >> released Xorg the video driver will not build. Period. > > 1.11.1 *is* the current stable release X.org. > > VirtualBox's error message can call it alpha/beta/non-released all it > likes. That doesn't mean it's true. > > A more accurate description of the situation is 'Oracle will update > VBox's guest additions to support new X.org releases as and when it damn > well pleases, and as said guest additions are closed source, everyone > else is tied to Oracle's schedule'. Point taken. But? They don't support Fedora development. So Adam here is where explain this the the OP. >> There are some users that have older monitors that to not identify >> themselves so that the resolution is not properly set. With a true >> install or an install in a VDI. *Most* of those can never be set to >> higher resolutions because system-config-display was killed. Even after >> the proper video drivers for Virtualbox are built. That is the connection. > > "Can never"? Hardly. It's perfectly possible to do it in xorg.conf. It's > just that no-one feels particularly inclined to maintain a GUI tweak > tool for xorg.conf any more. What you need to do Adam is listen to the many disadvantaged Linux users that don't have 'shiny new hardware'. And then *you* say -- 'Let they eat cake'. Fits dude. Linux has *always* claimed that 'we run on anything'. And that no longer fits. And now all *you* have to do is to single out just what Linux does not run on any more and explain it to them. When I started with Linux it was Red Hat 5.2 and Mandrake 6.0. And all the way to today Mageia and Mandrake can still find that really old, no longer used but still works, CRT monitor, decide what it it, and configure it properly. And Fedora has, as far back as i can recall, long before you left Mandriva and cam here, fedora does a 'duh' and does not configure that same monitor. Your turn. But I no long really care. -- David -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: f 16 beta in virtualbox
On Tue, 2011-10-04 at 20:04 -0400, David wrote: > On 10/4/2011 10:51 AM, Adam Jackson wrote: > > On Mon, 2011-10-03 at 17:03 -0400, David wrote: > > > >> The 'advanced graphics' video feature in Virtualbox seldom works in > >> Rawhide and the current 'branched' package (currently Fedora 16) because > >> Virtualbox does not support alpha/beta/non-release versions of Xorg. > > > > F16 has xserver 1.11.1. I don't know how much more "released" you want > > it to be. > > > Virtualbox has said that they do not chase development software. > > As long as Rawhide has some Xorg that is *not* the current stable > released Xorg the video driver will not build. Period. 1.11.1 *is* the current stable release X.org. VirtualBox's error message can call it alpha/beta/non-released all it likes. That doesn't mean it's true. A more accurate description of the situation is 'Oracle will update VBox's guest additions to support new X.org releases as and when it damn well pleases, and as said guest additions are closed source, everyone else is tied to Oracle's schedule'. > There are some users that have older monitors that to not identify > themselves so that the resolution is not properly set. With a true > install or an install in a VDI. *Most* of those can never be set to > higher resolutions because system-config-display was killed. Even after > the proper video drivers for Virtualbox are built. That is the connection. "Can never"? Hardly. It's perfectly possible to do it in xorg.conf. It's just that no-one feels particularly inclined to maintain a GUI tweak tool for xorg.conf any more. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: f 16 beta in virtualbox
On 10/4/2011 10:51 AM, Adam Jackson wrote: > On Mon, 2011-10-03 at 17:03 -0400, David wrote: > >> The 'advanced graphics' video feature in Virtualbox seldom works in >> Rawhide and the current 'branched' package (currently Fedora 16) because >> Virtualbox does not support alpha/beta/non-release versions of Xorg. > > F16 has xserver 1.11.1. I don't know how much more "released" you want > it to be. Virtualbox has said that they do not chase development software. As long as Rawhide has some Xorg that is *not* the current stable released Xorg the video driver will not build. Period. As Rawhide branches into 'the future release' this still holds. Some where near the end of the alpha, beta, RC cycle and a stable Xorg is settled Virtualbox will support that Xorg. *As soon as* Xorg gets bumped in Rawhide it will no longer build there. The GuestAdditions from the last, Monday ?, update release of Virtualbox now build video drivers for Fedora 16. >> This has gotten worse since it was decided to kill system-config-display >> and make monitor recognition and resolution into 'plug-n-pray'. > > I have difficulty seeing the connection between this point and the > previous. There are some users that have older monitors that to not identify themselves so that the resolution is not properly set. With a true install or an install in a VDI. *Most* of those can never be set to higher resolutions because system-config-display was killed. Even after the proper video drivers for Virtualbox are built. That is the connection. -- David -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: f 16 beta in virtualbox
On Mon, 2011-10-03 at 17:03 -0400, David wrote: > The 'advanced graphics' video feature in Virtualbox seldom works in > Rawhide and the current 'branched' package (currently Fedora 16) because > Virtualbox does not support alpha/beta/non-release versions of Xorg. F16 has xserver 1.11.1. I don't know how much more "released" you want it to be. > This has gotten worse since it was decided to kill system-config-display > and make monitor recognition and resolution into 'plug-n-pray'. I have difficulty seeing the connection between this point and the previous. - ajax signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: f 16 beta in virtualbox
On 10/3/2011 3:23 PM, Andre Robatino wrote: > I'm able now to log in graphically in F16 and get Gnome Shell, but only with > the > alternative status menu extension disabled. (The Alt trick to see the "Power > Off..." option works, at least.) In Rawhide, I still can't log in graphically > at > all, even with the gnome-shell-extension-* packages removed. Today there were > F16 updates for gnome-shell-extension-* so that might account for the > difference. > > With the regular guest additions, I would get fallback mode in both, and that > worked normally. The 'advanced graphics' video feature in Virtualbox seldom works in Rawhide and the current 'branched' package (currently Fedora 16) because Virtualbox does not support alpha/beta/non-release versions of Xorg. This has gotten worse since it was decided to kill system-config-display and make monitor recognition and resolution into 'plug-n-pray'. -- David -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: f 16 beta in virtualbox
Dne 3.10.2011 21:23, Andre Robatino napsal(a): > I'm able now to log in graphically in F16 and get Gnome Shell, but only with > the > alternative status menu extension disabled. (The Alt trick to see the "Power > Off..." option works, at least.) In Rawhide, I still can't log in graphically > at > all, even with the gnome-shell-extension-* packages removed. Today there were > F16 updates for gnome-shell-extension-* so that might account for the > difference. > > With the regular guest additions, I would get fallback mode in both, and that > worked normally. > Rawhide issue could related to my reported bz: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=742779 I'm definitely able to use gnome-shell telepathy-glib-0.15.5-1.fc17. Zdenek -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: f 16 beta in virtualbox
>> for anyone who wants to test the fedora 16 beta in virtualbox there is a > compatible guestadditions iso. >> >> https://www.virtualbox.org/download/testcase/VBoxGuestAdditions-r74220.iso > > This was posted in the thread > > https://forums.virtualbox.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=44287 > > After using this to rebuild the guest additions in my F16 VirtualBox 4.1.2 > guest, I get the "Oh No" screen and am unable to log in graphically > from the GDM > screen (which looks cool, by the way). It claims that the alternative status > menu might be responsible, but the problem continues after I disable it. If no > one knows how to fix this, I'll go back to the standard guest additions. That's good to know. It works for me but I boot to run level 3 and I'm using KDE desktop. I'll test run level 5 and check out the cool looks. Thanks -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
