Re: maintaining minimal
On Sat, Sep 28, 2013 at 10:50 PM, Felix Miata wrote: > In trying to find a way to reach a state similar to #2 using KDE instead of > Gnome, I had tried installing several KDE apps individually to see what > didn't seem to be required, since if trying to install all the apps I wanted > at once I would have no chance of discerning what might be responsible for > particular items of bloat. What I'd actually like is no more than is > technically required by the DE to run what I need: Konsole, Konqueror, > Ksnapshot, Kcalc and Mozilla-built binaries. It seems before writing here I > should have tried such after adding the above listed intermediates, as the > dep count plummeted. A super-minimal KDE installation isn't really possible right now due to the monolithic nature of the KDE libraries and runtime in KDE 4. KDE Frameworks 5 aims to fix this, so it should be possible in the future: http://dot.kde.org/2013/09/25/frameworks-5 If you're looking for a lightweight Qt-based desktop, check out Razor-qt: http://razor-qt.org/ or just `yum install razorqt` -T.C. -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: maintaining minimal
On 09/28/2013 10:50 PM, Felix Miata wrote: At this point, 'yum install kdm konsole kcalc konqueror ksnapshot kcm-gtk' only wants to install 198 packages, with konq apparently a part of kde-baseapps instead of separate. Almost close enough for gummint work. Kde-workspace wasn't pulled. Another 32 packages required, of which one x11 (and including the useless but upstream-required pim libs). Done. Only 36.5% increase in / space consumed not counting 14 needed scalable font packages. Thread moot, except to maybe plant a seed of easier minimal install of other DEs than Gnome. I'm not interested any time soon in spending the time it would take to do what Adam suggested. yum install @kde-desktop ? Not sure how minimal it is though. There are equivalent options for several other desktop environments. -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: maintaining minimal
On 2013-09-28 20:28 (GMT-0700) Samuel Sieb composed: Felix Miata wrote: That statement in conjunction with behavior I've observed seems to indicate hard dependencies have been created for what on other distros would be suggests. e.g., 'yum install konsole' results in 1 package plus 190 dependent packages to be installed, among them: yum install kcalc isn't quite so bad, 1 + 125, and yet it's ka ka that a simple calculator needs qtwebkit, desktop search, firewire and sound support installed. If you're installing a KDE application, but don't have KDE installed, then why is it surprising that it's going to pull in a large part of KDE and its dependencies? I expect you would get a very similar result if you tried installing gnome-terminal. If you don't want that, then install something like xterm or one of the other terminal application that isn't tied to a large desktop environment. At the root of my OP is these two circumstances: 1-string "minimal" appears only once in output of yum grouplist, not in conjunction with any of the available DEs 2-a minimal DE is available by installing group "Basic Desktop", but it's suitable only for those who want Gnome, which I don't. If chosen now on my 3 week old F20 "minimal" installation that is currently consuming 1299555 1K blocks, 379 packages would be added, names of which only 17 include string x11. In between installation and starting this thread, I installed other things I knew I would need anyway that had managed to escape inclusion in the minimal installation: qt, qt-x11, qt-settings, xorg-x11-xinit, xorg-x11-xauth, xorg-x11-server-utils, libXft, pango, cairo, and whatever they depend on. In trying to find a way to reach a state similar to #2 using KDE instead of Gnome, I had tried installing several KDE apps individually to see what didn't seem to be required, since if trying to install all the apps I wanted at once I would have no chance of discerning what might be responsible for particular items of bloat. What I'd actually like is no more than is technically required by the DE to run what I need: Konsole, Konqueror, Ksnapshot, Kcalc and Mozilla-built binaries. It seems before writing here I should have tried such after adding the above listed intermediates, as the dep count plummeted. At this point, 'yum install kdm konsole kcalc konqueror ksnapshot kcm-gtk' only wants to install 198 packages, with konq apparently a part of kde-baseapps instead of separate. Almost close enough for gummint work. Kde-workspace wasn't pulled. Another 32 packages required, of which one x11 (and including the useless but upstream-required pim libs). Done. Only 36.5% increase in / space consumed not counting 14 needed scalable font packages. Thread moot, except to maybe plant a seed of easier minimal install of other DEs than Gnome. I'm not interested any time soon in spending the time it would take to do what Adam suggested. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: maintaining minimal
On 09/28/2013 01:38 AM, Felix Miata wrote: That statement in conjunction with behavior I've observed seems to indicate hard dependencies have been created for what on other distros would be suggests. e.g., 'yum install konsole' results in 1 package plus 190 dependent packages to be installed, among them: [snip] yum install kcalc isn't quite so bad, 1 + 125, and yet it's ka ka that a simple calculator needs qtwebkit, desktop search, firewire and sound support installed. If you're installing a KDE application, but don't have KDE installed, then why is it surprising that it's going to pull in a large part of KDE and its dependencies? I expect you would get a very similar result if you tried installing gnome-terminal. If you don't want that, then install something like xterm or one of the other terminal application that isn't tied to a large desktop environment. -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: maintaining minimal
On 29/09/13 14:47, Adam Williamson wrote: [...] Soft deps could help with this, but the Fedora package management folks have been opposed to them for a long time. They have some valid reasons; personally I'm pro-soft deps, but it doesn't look like it'll happen soon. Maybe we should have semi-soft links? [Smiley's omitted, due to budget constraints.] -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: maintaining minimal
On Sat, 2013-09-28 at 04:38 -0400, Felix Miata wrote: > That statement in conjunction with behavior I've observed seems to indicate > hard dependencies have been created for what on other distros would be > suggests. e.g., 'yum install konsole' results in 1 package plus 190 dependent > packages to be installed, among them: That kind of vague approach won't get you anywhere when it comes to dependencies. The web of deps between a repository of over 10,000 packages is, naturally, insanely complex, and if you just say "I think this is too many dependencies!", no-one's very likely to do anything about it, unless they happen to be annoyed by the same dep chain and actually do the work to figure out what's going on. A better approach is to go in and figure out exactly what the dep chain is, and see if you can identify the questionable links in it. Or just establish to your satisfaction that, even though it seems weird, it's valid, and there are good reasons for each set of deps. Usually the maintainers are not idiots, and don't just throw dependencies around for no good reason. If you do find something, post to devel@ or file a bug. There is often a trade-off to deal with when deciding whether to make something a dependency - where, say, you expect that half the users will have a bad experience if it's not installed, but the other half will complain about bloat if it is, what do you do? Soft deps could help with this, but the Fedora package management folks have been opposed to them for a long time. They have some valid reasons; personally I'm pro-soft deps, but it doesn't look like it'll happen soon. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin DOT net http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: maintaining minimal
On 2013-09-27 19:33 (GMT-0600) Orion Poplawski composed: Felix Miata wrote: I'm not having any luck figuring out how Yum can be limited to installing only hard dependencies when any given package is installed, avoiding "nice to have" things that take time to install and update that I'll never use. If this is covered in the yum.conf man page I missed it. In zypper's zypp.conf this is done via InstallRecommends = no. In Mageia, --no-suggests is used with urpmi. How is it handled in Fedora? In Fedora, there are only hard dependencies - no suggests. That statement in conjunction with behavior I've observed seems to indicate hard dependencies have been created for what on other distros would be suggests. e.g., 'yum install konsole' results in 1 package plus 190 dependent packages to be installed, among them: GConf2 cdparanoia-libs 5 gstreamers libavc1394 libraw1394 libsmbclient libssh libvorbis 3 nepomuks 40 perl packages 2 phonons 3 popplers 2 pulseaudios sound-theme-freedesktop soundtouch speex strigi upower yum install kcalc isn't quite so bad, 1 + 125, and yet it's ka ka that a simple calculator needs qtwebkit, desktop search, firewire and sound support installed. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: maintaining minimal
On 9/27/2013 6:27 PM, Felix Miata wrote: I'm not having any luck figuring out how Yum can be limited to installing only hard dependencies when any given package is installed, avoiding "nice to have" things that take time to install and update that I'll never use. If this is covered in the yum.conf man page I missed it. In zypper's zypp.conf this is done via InstallRecommends = no. In Mageia, --no-suggests is used with urpmi. How is it handled in Fedora? In Fedora, there are only hard dependencies - no suggests. -- Orion Poplawski Technical Manager 303-415-9701 x222 NWRA, Boulder/CoRA Office FAX: 303-415-9702 3380 Mitchell Lane or...@nwra.com Boulder, CO 80301 http://www.nwra.com -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
