Re: automatically mounting physically attached media (was Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER)
2012/4/19 Michael Hennebry > On Wed, 18 Apr 2012, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > On Wed, 2012-04-18 at 16:48 -0400, Jonathan Kamens wrote: >> >>> On 04/18/2012 04:45 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > It shows up in the file >>> manager; it's not mounted. >>> Why not? >>> >>> In F16, it was mounted. >>> >>> In Windows, it's mounted. >>> >>> In Mac OS, it's mounted. >>> >>> Why should F17 behave differently from F17 and from every other >>> mainstream OS people are familiar with? >>> >>> What is the justification for this different, unexpected, >>> non-intuitive behavior? >>> >> >> The arguments are really going downhill here. I'm not overly interested >> in wading into this, but I'll just say that whenever we do something >> automatically, somebody will get mad. In the past, auto-mounting (and >> even just automatically sniffing) of media has been construed as a >> security issue.. >> > > How hard would it be to make the behaviour configurable? > > Should removable devices attached before boot be mounted before login? > Should removable devices attached after boot be mounted before login? > Should removable devices attached during a session be mounted > automatically? > Should removable devices mounted during a > session be mounted in a user-specific location? > > The behaviour for non-removable devices, > e.g. partitions, is somewhat configurable. > Which partitions are mounted at boot time is > determined by options given during install. > one possible starting point is to mount any removable device as a neutral user (nobody?) with read only access for everybody, *if* there's no other user logged into a X session. in this way, a network server can still offer the files without creating unneeded security risks implied by mounting as any particular real user (like root). the fstab workaround can work but imagine a fstab with as many lines as removable devices a user has (think how many optical disks, as an example.) -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: automatically mounting physically attached media (was Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER)
On Wed, 18 Apr 2012, Matthias Clasen wrote: On Wed, 2012-04-18 at 16:48 -0400, Jonathan Kamens wrote: On 04/18/2012 04:45 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > It shows up in the file manager; it's not mounted. Why not? In F16, it was mounted. In Windows, it's mounted. In Mac OS, it's mounted. Why should F17 behave differently from F17 and from every other mainstream OS people are familiar with? What is the justification for this different, unexpected, non-intuitive behavior? The arguments are really going downhill here. I'm not overly interested in wading into this, but I'll just say that whenever we do something automatically, somebody will get mad. In the past, auto-mounting (and even just automatically sniffing) of media has been construed as a security issue.. How hard would it be to make the behaviour configurable? Should removable devices attached before boot be mounted before login? Should removable devices attached after boot be mounted before login? Should removable devices attached during a session be mounted automatically? Should removable devices mounted during a session be mounted in a user-specific location? The behaviour for non-removable devices, e.g. partitions, is somewhat configurable. Which partitions are mounted at boot time is determined by options given during install. -- Michael henne...@web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu "On Monday, I'm gonna have to tell my kindergarten class, whom I teach not to run with scissors, that my fiance ran me through with a broadsword." -- Lily -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: automatically mounting physically attached media (was Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER)
On Thu, 2012-04-19 at 03:26 +0100, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Wed, 2012-04-18 at 21:38 -0400, Ma > > Honestly, I'm not sure there's any difference at all between 'mount on > attach' and 'mount on any attempt to access' from a security POV. http://git.gnome.org/browse/gvfs/commit/?id=e30a67f3215d829e95ee7e358c67af7d67635fe8 is an example for the kind of unhappiness you get - and there's also very little difference between doing something automatically while the screen is locked or doing something automatically with an already plugged in device on login or unlock. -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: automatically mounting physically attached media (was Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER)
On Wed, 2012-04-18 at 21:38 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > The arguments are really going downhill here. I'm not overly interested > in wading into this, but I'll just say that whenever we do something > automatically, somebody will get mad. In the past, auto-mounting (and > even just automatically sniffing) of media has been construed as a > security issue.. > > Anyway, > http://git.gnome.org/browse/gvfs/commit/?id=e30a67f3215d829e95ee7e358c67af7d67635fe8 Honestly, I'm not sure there's any difference at all between 'mount on attach' and 'mount on any attempt to access' from a security POV. I think the decision to change this was a good one, and I doubt it'll make many people unhappy - and as several commenters have pointed out, it's only in line with what every other OS we can think of does by default, and what Fedora / GNOME has always done in the past. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: automatically mounting physically attached media (was Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER)
On Wed, 2012-04-18 at 16:48 -0400, Jonathan Kamens wrote: > On 04/18/2012 04:45 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > It shows up in the file manager; it's not mounted. > Why not? > > In F16, it was mounted. > > In Windows, it's mounted. > > In Mac OS, it's mounted. > > Why should F17 behave differently from F17 and from every other > mainstream OS people are familiar with? > > What is the justification for this different, unexpected, > non-intuitive behavior? The arguments are really going downhill here. I'm not overly interested in wading into this, but I'll just say that whenever we do something automatically, somebody will get mad. In the past, auto-mounting (and even just automatically sniffing) of media has been construed as a security issue.. Anyway, http://git.gnome.org/browse/gvfs/commit/?id=e30a67f3215d829e95ee7e358c67af7d67635fe8 -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: automatically mounting physically attached media (was Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER)
On Wed, 2012-04-18 at 14:40 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Adam Williamson (awill...@redhat.com) said: > > On Wed, 2012-04-18 at 13:10 -0400, Jonathan Kamens wrote: > > > > > Yes, I'm aware of that, but that's not what I want. > > > > > > If it is the position of the Fedora developers that /run/media/$USER > > > is the right place for stuff to be mounted, and I don't have a > > > particular problem with that decision, then I want that behavior, > > > i.e., the behavior that the developers think is correct, with the F16 > > > behavior of the device being mounted automatically when I log in. > > > > > > Why shouldn't it act that way? > > > > Oh, I see. I don't know about that. I don't know if there's a way to > > make GNOME mount devices on login rather than on access. I think that's > > a GNOME policy question rather than a udisks one. It may be worth asking > > on the desktop list. Matthias, are you reading this? > > So, I'm a bit confused. I tried to reproduce this with a USB stick today. > > If I plug it in while I'm logged in, it shows up. I log out and log back in, > and it still shows up. > > If I reboot, plug it in during GDM, and then log in... it shows up. Under > what circumstance does it not show up for you? The problem is with the definition of 'shows up'. GNOME will show such devices in Nautilus, file chooser etc, but it doesn't actually automount until you try to access it through such a graphical app. So you can't access it through the terminal unless you mount it manually or go click on it in Nautilus to get it mounted first. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: automatically mounting physically attached media (was Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER)
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 10:48 PM, Jonathan Kamens wrote: > On 04/18/2012 04:45 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > It shows up in the file manager; it's not mounted. > > Why not? > > In F16, it was mounted. > > In Windows, it's mounted. > > In Mac OS, it's mounted. > > Why should F17 behave differently from F17 and from every other mainstream > OS people are familiar with? > > What is the justification for this different, unexpected, non-intuitive > behavior? It got fixed / reverted: http://git.gnome.org/browse/gvfs/commit/?id=e30a67f3215 -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: automatically mounting physically attached media (was Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER)
On 04/18/2012 04:45 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > It shows up in the file manager; it's not mounted. Why not? In F16, it was mounted. In Windows, it's mounted. In Mac OS, it's mounted. Why should F17 behave differently from F17 and from every other mainstream OS people are familiar with? What is the justification for this different, unexpected, non-intuitive behavior? jik -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: automatically mounting physically attached media (was Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER)
Richard Ryniker (ryni...@alum.mit.edu) said: > >If I plug it in while I'm logged in, it shows up. I log out and log back in, > >and it still shows up. > > >If I reboot, plug it in during GDM, and then log in... it shows up. Under > >what circumstance does it not show up for you? Aha, for this last one it's a timing issue... if it scans slow enough that it 'appears' during the session, it will be mounted. > If your USB stick is plugged in before you boot your system, where does it > show up? Nowhere. The device node is created (/dev/sd...) but it is not > mounted. (Yes, I believe an entry in /etc/fstab will help in some > cirsumstances.) It shows up in the file manager; it's not mounted. Bill -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: automatically mounting physically attached media (was Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER)
>If I plug it in while I'm logged in, it shows up. I log out and log back in, >and it still shows up. >If I reboot, plug it in during GDM, and then log in... it shows up. Under >what circumstance does it not show up for you? If your USB stick is plugged in before you boot your system, where does it show up? Nowhere. The device node is created (/dev/sd...) but it is not mounted. (Yes, I believe an entry in /etc/fstab will help in some cirsumstances.) Root can mount the device, but behavior then varies. Mount over /x is "normal" but mount over /home//x causes the Gnome desktop to pop up a menu that offers: "Open with files" or "Eject". Eject will only work after authentication (quite proper - the device was mounted by root) whereas automatic mount over /run/media// allows the user to Eject without authentication. None of this is intrinsically terrible, but there is a surfeit of different behaviors that will likely confuse many users at one time or another. This feels like a consensus issue: with no agreed strategy about what should happen, programmers wrote whatever seemed appropriate for the case they were coding. -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: automatically mounting physically attached media (was Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER)
Three use cases in which in my opinion the behavior is clearly incorrect: Case 1: 1. Put DVD in drive while logged in. DVD is mounted. 2. Reboot computer and log back in. DVD is not mounted. It should be. Case 2: 1. Put DVD in drive before logging in. DVD is not mounted. 2. Log in. DVD is not mounted. It should be. Case 3: 1. Put DVD in drive while logged in. DVD is mounted. 2. Log out. DVD stays mounted under /run/media/$USER. It should have been unmounted when you logged out. 3. Log back in as another user. DVD is still mounted under /run/media//previous-$USER/. It should have been remounted under your $USER. jik On 04/18/2012 02:40 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Adam Williamson (awill...@redhat.com) said: >> On Wed, 2012-04-18 at 13:10 -0400, Jonathan Kamens wrote: >> >>> Yes, I'm aware of that, but that's not what I want. >>> >>> If it is the position of the Fedora developers that /run/media/$USER >>> is the right place for stuff to be mounted, and I don't have a >>> particular problem with that decision, then I want that behavior, >>> i.e., the behavior that the developers think is correct, with the F16 >>> behavior of the device being mounted automatically when I log in. >>> >>> Why shouldn't it act that way? >> Oh, I see. I don't know about that. I don't know if there's a way to >> make GNOME mount devices on login rather than on access. I think that's >> a GNOME policy question rather than a udisks one. It may be worth asking >> on the desktop list. Matthias, are you reading this? > So, I'm a bit confused. I tried to reproduce this with a USB stick today. > > If I plug it in while I'm logged in, it shows up. I log out and log back in, > and it still shows up. > > If I reboot, plug it in during GDM, and then log in... it shows up. Under > what circumstance does it not show up for you? > > Bill -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: automatically mounting physically attached media (was Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER)
Adam Williamson (awill...@redhat.com) said: > On Wed, 2012-04-18 at 13:10 -0400, Jonathan Kamens wrote: > > > Yes, I'm aware of that, but that's not what I want. > > > > If it is the position of the Fedora developers that /run/media/$USER > > is the right place for stuff to be mounted, and I don't have a > > particular problem with that decision, then I want that behavior, > > i.e., the behavior that the developers think is correct, with the F16 > > behavior of the device being mounted automatically when I log in. > > > > Why shouldn't it act that way? > > Oh, I see. I don't know about that. I don't know if there's a way to > make GNOME mount devices on login rather than on access. I think that's > a GNOME policy question rather than a udisks one. It may be worth asking > on the desktop list. Matthias, are you reading this? So, I'm a bit confused. I tried to reproduce this with a USB stick today. If I plug it in while I'm logged in, it shows up. I log out and log back in, and it still shows up. If I reboot, plug it in during GDM, and then log in... it shows up. Under what circumstance does it not show up for you? Bill -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: automatically mounting physically attached media (was Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER)
On Wed, 2012-04-18 at 13:10 -0400, Jonathan Kamens wrote: > Yes, I'm aware of that, but that's not what I want. > > If it is the position of the Fedora developers that /run/media/$USER > is the right place for stuff to be mounted, and I don't have a > particular problem with that decision, then I want that behavior, > i.e., the behavior that the developers think is correct, with the F16 > behavior of the device being mounted automatically when I log in. > > Why shouldn't it act that way? Oh, I see. I don't know about that. I don't know if there's a way to make GNOME mount devices on login rather than on access. I think that's a GNOME policy question rather than a udisks one. It may be worth asking on the desktop list. Matthias, are you reading this? -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: automatically mounting physically attached media (was Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER)
On 04/18/2012 01:06 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: > If you set a specific mount location for a device in that tool - i.e. in > fstab - it will be used even if the device is connected after login. Yes, I'm aware of that, but that's not what I want. If it is the position of the Fedora developers that /run/media/$USER is the right place for stuff to be mounted, and I don't have a particular problem with that decision, then I want /that/ behavior, i.e., the behavior that the developers think is correct, /with/ the F16 behavior of the device being mounted automatically when I log in. Why /shouldn't/ it act that way? jik -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: automatically mounting physically attached media (was Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER)
On Wed, 2012-04-18 at 12:15 -0400, Jonathan Kamens wrote: > OK, so I took a look at the GNOME "Disks" utility, which I was finally > able to get to run without crashing, and as far as I can tell, it > doesn't resolve my main complaint with the new F17 behavior. > > Yes, I can use the Disks utility to configure removable devices, e.g., > my DVD drive, to mount on startup. But then it isn't going to mount > in /run/media/$USER, because there's no user logged in yet. > > My concern, which I've explained repeatedly and I believe is quite > legitimate despite all of the flak I've taken for it here, is that the > behavior of a removable device that is already inserted when I log in > should be exactly the same as the behavior of a removable device that > I insert after logging in. As far as I can tell the Disks utility > can't achieve that. If I'm wrong, please explain to me exactly how I > should configure, e.g., my DVD drive in the Disks utility so that if > there's a DVD in the drive when I log in, it will be mounted > under /run/media/$USER automatically. > > (And, while you're at it, explain to me why this shouldn't be the > default behavior, which I've yet to see anyone here explain, as far as > I recall.) If you set a specific mount location for a device in that tool - i.e. in fstab - it will be used even if the device is connected after login. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: automatically mounting physically attached media (was Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER)
OK, so I took a look at the GNOME "Disks" utility, which I was finally able to get to run without crashing, and as far as I can tell, it doesn't resolve my main complaint with the new F17 behavior. Yes, I can use the Disks utility to configure removable devices, e.g., my DVD drive, to mount on startup. But then it isn't going to mount in /run/media/$USER, because there's no user logged in yet. My concern, which I've explained repeatedly and I believe is quite legitimate despite all of the flak I've taken for it here, is that the behavior of a removable device that is already inserted when I log in should be exactly the same as the behavior of a removable device that I insert after logging in. As far as I can tell the Disks utility can't achieve that. If I'm wrong, please explain to me exactly how I should configure, e.g., my DVD drive in the Disks utility so that if there's a DVD in the drive when I log in, it will be mounted under /run/media/$USER automatically. (And, while you're at it, explain to me why this shouldn't be the default behavior, which I've yet to see anyone here explain, as far as I recall.) jik -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: automatically mounting physically attached media (was Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER)
On Wed, 2012-04-18 at 10:23 +0200, Stijn Hoop wrote: > 2. "I have a plugged-in USB disk and I am at the physical console >however I need to find the name of my USB disk in the folder list >and click on it before I can use any files on it" > > This is what I personally object to, and I suspect Jonathan does as > well. > > It is > > a) inconsistent with other operating systems, at least Windows and Mac >OS X. > > b) inconsistent with previous Fedora releases > > c) not by any means more secure for multi users since you need physical >access to the machine to plug in a USB stick / insert a CD anyway > > So what are the real reasons for behavioural aspect #2, and was this > design tested on users? Where is the rationale? Yeah, I'm honestly not a huge fan of this one either. It bugs me frequently. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
automatically mounting physically attached media (was Re: Move from /media to /run/media/$USER)
Hello, On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 15:50:47 -0400 Jonathan Kamens wrote: > I am not talking about static mounts. I'm talking about if I have a > removable device inserted / plugged in / whatever, then when I log > in, I should see it. This is what users expect. Period. > > Bugzillad: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=813069 The bug opened by Jonathan has been closed NOTABUG. I still think more discussion is warranted though. There are two issues being discussed in this thread: 1. "My scripts/environment will break now that media is no longer found in /media/MYFOO" Here, I agree with the current Fedora 17 implementation, and I feel that the short-term pain of migration said scripts/environments is worth the long-term gain of having a really per-user mount. No argument there, so let's drop it from this subthread. 2. "I have a plugged-in USB disk and I am at the physical console however I need to find the name of my USB disk in the folder list and click on it before I can use any files on it" This is what I personally object to, and I suspect Jonathan does as well. It is a) inconsistent with other operating systems, at least Windows and Mac OS X. b) inconsistent with previous Fedora releases c) not by any means more secure for multi users since you need physical access to the machine to plug in a USB stick / insert a CD anyway So what are the real reasons for behavioural aspect #2, and was this design tested on users? Where is the rationale? Regards, --Stijn -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
