RE: [Texascavers] RE: bats cats and mice (UNCLASSIFIED)
Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Did you notice any eyes on the ants? Subterranean Army Ants are occasionally found foraging in caves...they generally occur in large numbers called camps and they spread out to loot and pillage their fellow eyeless wonders the troglobites. _ From: Minton, Mark [mailto:mmin...@nmhu.edu] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 7:45 PM To: Texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] RE: bats cats and mice Vivian said: We also observed seriously heavily traveled small rodent trails well into the dark zone there. Their little rodent bones practically formed drifts in some areas. There are some major snake trails too. That reminds me that in Powell's Cave we saw major ant trials in active use way up the stream passage. Of course Powell's is a very shallow cave, so those ants didn't have all that far to go to get into the cave from above. Still, they must have been pretty deep (at least tens of feet) compared to normal ants. Maybe they were there for water... Mark Minton Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE
RE: [Texascavers] bats cats and mice (UNCLASSIFIED)
Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Even though bats do use caves as a dwelling (place of rest), it should still be considered part of their habitat because without caves many species would definitely die (and go extinct!) due to mortality from cold exposure and mortality of pups...endangered gray bats and Indiana bats are good examples. Gotta be careful with the way back bones observations. Sometimes floods carry bones deep into caves (repeated over time and a virtual mausoleum develops), sometimes tigres and other cave-dwelling carnivores bring their quarry into caves (floods push bones deeper), sometimes lost/trapped creatures (and candle-carrying teenagers) wander way back than they normally would, or human disturbance may push bats into cave passages they normally wouldn't roost in (if unsuitable, they may die during hibernation or from flood sumping). Or as others have mentioned small creatures use small passages near way back portions. Very great topic (often overlooked) to discuss and investigate. Alas, more questions than answers... -Original Message- From: Nancy Weaver [mailto:nan...@io.com] Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 9:02 AM To: Texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [Texascavers] bats cats and mice Lots of nice responses, thanks all. The consensus would appear to be that a great variety of mammals (and others) utilize caves to an equal extent as bats. And that all use the cave as a dwelling rather than a habitat. I'd surmise that the examples found 'way back into the cave' are accidentals and likely unsuccesful experiements based on the bones. Nancy - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] RE: bats cats and mice (UNCLASSIFIED)
Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Subterranean army ants are pigmented red and swarm all over the place just like fire ants. Red imported fire ants are not very abundant in Menard county (too dry). Heck, based on range maps I suspect they do not even occur there...native fire ants are another story but they are not as prolific as the non-native ones. Next time you see numerous ants in a cave have a look at them to see if they are subterranean ants (no eyes, red or black pigmentation) and note it somewhere in a trip report, that information is valuable from a biological stand-point. Non-native fire ant observations are important as well because they can decimate troglobite populations and out-compete/kill cave crickets (bread and butter of caves). Imported fire ants are nasty little devils! _ From: Minton, Mark [mailto:mmin...@nmhu.edu] Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 12:13 PM To: Texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] RE: bats cats and mice Charles Perkins said: in Powell's Cave we saw major ant trails in active use way up the stream passage. Did you notice any eyes on the ants? I don't recall paying particularly close attention to the ants in Powell's, but I suspect they were common fire ants. They appeared to be normally pigmented, so I suspect they were surface critters. Mark Minton Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE
Re: [Texascavers] RE: bats cats and mice (UNCLASSIFIED)
What I find interesting is how Fire ants will build mud tubes like Termites down into the cave entrances. - Original Message - From: Pekins, Charles E Mr CIV USA IMCOM To: Texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 12:22 PM Subject: RE: [Texascavers] RE: bats cats and mice (UNCLASSIFIED) Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Subterranean army ants are pigmented red and swarm all over the place just like fire ants. Red imported fire ants are not very abundant in Menard county (too dry). Heck, based on range maps I suspect they do not even occur there...native fire ants are another story but they are not as prolific as the non-native ones. Next time you see numerous ants in a cave have a look at them to see if they are subterranean ants (no eyes, red or black pigmentation) and note it somewhere in a trip report, that information is valuable from a biological stand-point. Non-native fire ant observations are important as well because they can decimate troglobite populations and out-compete/kill cave crickets (bread and butter of caves). Imported fire ants are nasty little devils! -- From: Minton, Mark [mailto:mmin...@nmhu.edu] Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 12:13 PM To: Texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] RE: bats cats and mice Charles Perkins said: in Powell's Cave we saw major ant trails in active use way up the stream passage. Did you notice any eyes on the ants? I don't recall paying particularly close attention to the ants in Powell's, but I suspect they were common fire ants. They appeared to be normally pigmented, so I suspect they were surface critters. Mark Minton Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE
[Texascavers] Falling Rock Kills California Woman at Puerto Rican Cave
SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico — A woman from California died after being hit by a falling rock Saturday while visiting a vast cave system in northwestern Puerto Rico, authorities said. Socorro Elaine Smith, 45, was struck while waiting with her husband to board a trolley that runs through the Camuy caves, authorities said. Information on her hometown was not immediately available. No one else was injured, but the Rio Camuy Cave Park was evacuated, Puerto Rican police spokeswoman Marilyn Calo said. The caves are one of the biggest cave systems in the world and a major tourist attraction on the U.S. territory. _http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,320498,00.html_ (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,320498,00.html) **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489
Re: [Texascavers] Falling Rock Kills California Woman at Puerto Rican Cave
I wonder if it's a direct head hit? Would a helmet have saved her? jerryat...@aol.com wrote: *SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico — A woman from California died after being hit by a falling rock Saturday while visiting a vast cave system in northwestern Puerto Rico, authorities said.* Socorro Elaine Smith, 45, was struck while waiting with her husband to board a trolley that runs through the Camuy caves, authorities said. Information on her hometown was not immediately available. No one else was injured, but the Rio Camuy Cave Park was evacuated, Puerto Rican police spokeswoman Marilyn Calo said. The caves are one of the biggest cave systems in the world and a major tourist attraction on the U.S. territory. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,320498,00.html Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489 in the new year. -- Lyndon Tiu - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] bats cats and mice
Lots of nice responses, thanks all. The consensus would appear to be that a great variety of mammals (and others) utilize caves to an equal extent as bats. And that all use the cave as a dwelling rather than a habitat. I'd surmise that the examples found 'way back into the cave' are accidentals and likely unsuccesful experiements based on the bones. Nancy - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] RE: bats cats and mice
Charles Perkins said: in Powell's Cave we saw major ant trails in active use way up the stream passage. Did you notice any eyes on the ants? I don't recall paying particularly close attention to the ants in Powell's, but I suspect they were common fire ants. They appeared to be normally pigmented, so I suspect they were surface critters. Mark Minton
[Texascavers] RE: bats cats and mice
Nancy Weaver said: I'd surmise that the examples found 'way back into the cave' are accidentals and likely unsuccesful experiements based on the bones. In one of the caves in Germany Valley, WV where I am now working there are thousands of bat bones strewn along several passages. In some places they are so thick as to form the top layer of the floor. That many bones are not likely to be due to accidental incursions. There are still live bats in some of those same passages. Most of the bones are disarticulated, indicating they have been there for quite some time, although occasionally we find a recently dead bat with some remnants of flesh remaining. The bones are not covered by sediments and the passages do not appear to take water any more, so I doubt they were washed in or collected by flooding. My guess is that bats have used those passages for hundreds of years and the bones have been building up over time. Charles Perkins said: Gotta be careful with the way back bones observations. Indeed, entrances come and go. It could have been that those bone passages above were once used much more heavily than they now are, possibly because an old entrance is no longer still open. The current entrance was only dug open in the last few years, so it is possible that the bats we see now have only recently recolonized the cave. I wasn't around here when the cave was first explored, so I don't know whether it had bats in it from the start or not. I do know that bats are pretty quick to find and colonize suitable habitat when it appears. Mark Minton
