date:20080627

 ' Hmm.  Read that again, slowly.  "...at prices competitive.with _new 
nuclear plants_! 


  Ever wondered why you haven't seen any new nuclear plants in the last 30 
years?  Aside..'

 Alex, what do you think the new cost of nuclear is? I bet it will be much more 
than solar or wind in just a few months. With a lot more to transport for 
nuclear than the other two I do not see how it will not be. Have you seen the 
price of building products in the last few days? I talked to a building 
contractor here and he and his partner both have income from former jobs or 
company's. He was parking his large SUV most of the time and driving a small 
car when he did not have to haul things. His income from a former life as a 
Dentist is well invested but he does not see the future as a good one.
Quinta

Re: [Texascavers] RE: wikianswers - part 3

2008-06-27 Thread John P. Brooks

On 6/27/08 6:01 PM, "George Veni"  wrote:

> This is the notorious problem with Wikis. In principle they allow a great and
> open exchange of information, but in practice the lack of quality control
> allows anyone to post just about anything, even information that is terrible
> wrong or short-sighted. The International Congress of Speleology next year in
> Texas will broaden many US cavers¹ perspective, but if anyone reading this can
> make it to France this August, the European Congress of Speleology will be an
> amazing event in a spectacular karst area and I encourage you to go.
> http://www.vercors2008.ffspeleo.fr/
>  
> George
> (and not nearly as famous as some poor well-intentioned Wiki-writer thinks)
>  
>  
> 
> From: Minton, Mark [mailto:mmin...@nmhu.edu]
> Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 4:15 PM
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: [Texascavers] RE: wikianswers - part 3
>  
> 
> David Locklear said:
> 
>  
> 
>> >There are 41 questions on the new wiki-answers page after just one week of
>> being up:
>> >http://wiki.answers.com/Q/FAQ/4337
> 
>  
> 
> The list seems a bit ³Texas centric²maybe Texas really is ³The Center of
> the Caving Universe².
> 
> John Brooks
> 
>   I take issue with the suggested answer to the first question:  "Who are
> the top 10 most famous speleologist?" (That should be speleologists, plural;
> same with question 5.)  The names given are embarrassingly U.S.-centric.
> There is only one non-American listed, and that is a French archaeologist I've
> never heard of.  What about people like Norbert Casteret?  Bill Stone is
> listed as the only human to reach the deepest point in a cave.  Say what?
> Which cave?  He's never even been to the deepest cave in the world
> (Krubera/Voronja) as far as I know, and I don't think he's the only person to
> get to the bottom of any deep cave.  That answer should be pulled.  I'm afraid
> to look at any of the others...
> 
>  
> 
> Mark Minton
>

RE: [Texascavers] RE: wikianswers - part 3

2008-06-27 Thread George Veni

This is the notorious problem with Wikis. In principle they allow a great
and open exchange of information, but in practice the lack of quality
control allows anyone to post just about anything, even information that is
terrible wrong or short-sighted. The International Congress of Speleology
next year in Texas will broaden many US cavers' perspective, but if anyone
reading this can make it to France this August, the European Congress of
Speleology will be an amazing event in a spectacular karst area and I
encourage you to go. http://www.vercors2008.ffspeleo.fr/  

 

George

(and not nearly as famous as some poor well-intentioned Wiki-writer thinks)

 

 

From: Minton, Mark [mailto:mmin...@nmhu.edu] 
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 4:15 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] RE: wikianswers - part 3

 

David Locklear said:

 

>There are 41 questions on the new wiki-answers page after just one week of
being up:
>http://wiki.answers.com/Q/FAQ/4337

 

  I take issue with the suggested answer to the first question:  "Who
are the top 10 most famous speleologist?" (That should be speleologists,
plural; same with question 5.)  The names given are embarrassingly
U.S.-centric.  There is only one non-American listed, and that is a French
archaeologist I've never heard of.  What about people like Norbert Casteret?
Bill Stone is listed as the only human to reach the deepest point in a cave.
Say what?  Which cave?  He's never even been to the deepest cave in the
world (Krubera/Voronja) as far as I know, and I don't think he's the only
person to get to the bottom of any deep cave.  That answer should be pulled.
I'm afraid to look at any of the others...

 

Mark Minton

Re: [Texascavers] RE: wikianswers - part 3

2008-06-27 Thread speleosteele

Now I want to look. Inquiring minds want to know. Thanks, Mark.

Bill 

 "Minton wrote: 
> David Locklear said:
> 
> >There are 41 questions on the new wiki-answers page after just one week of 
> >being up:
> >http://wiki.answers.com/Q/FAQ/4337
> 
>   I take issue with the suggested answer to the first question:  "Who are 
> the top 10 most famous speleologist?" (That should be speleologists, plural; 
> same with question 5.)  The names given are embarrassingly U.S.-centric.  
> There is only one non-American listed, and that is a French archaeologist 
> I've never heard of.  What about people like Norbert Casteret?  Bill Stone is 
> listed as the only human to reach the deepest point in a cave.  Say what?  
> Which cave?  He's never even been to the deepest cave in the world 
> (Krubera/Voronja) as far as I know, and I don't think he's the only person to 
> get to the bottom of any deep cave.  That answer should be pulled.  I'm 
> afraid to look at any of the others...
> 
> Mark Minton


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[Texascavers] RE: wikianswers - part 3

2008-06-27 Thread Minton, Mark

David Locklear said:

>There are 41 questions on the new wiki-answers page after just one week of 
>being up:
>http://wiki.answers.com/Q/FAQ/4337

  I take issue with the suggested answer to the first question:  "Who are 
the top 10 most famous speleologist?" (That should be speleologists, plural; 
same with question 5.)  The names given are embarrassingly U.S.-centric.  There 
is only one non-American listed, and that is a French archaeologist I've never 
heard of.  What about people like Norbert Casteret?  Bill Stone is listed as 
the only human to reach the deepest point in a cave.  Say what?  Which cave?  
He's never even been to the deepest cave in the world (Krubera/Voronja) as far 
as I know, and I don't think he's the only person to get to the bottom of any 
deep cave.  That answer should be pulled.  I'm afraid to look at any of the 
others...

Mark Minton

RE: [Texascavers] wikianswers - part 3

David, I don't think that I know the question.
Fritz

-Original Message-
From: David [mailto:dlocklea...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 3:24 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] wikianswers - part 3

There are 41 questions on the new wiki-answers page after just one week
of being up:

  http://wiki.answers.com/Q/FAQ/4337

Thank you to all the people contributing.

David Locklear
Wikianswers Speleology moderator

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[ot_caving] I just saw it on CNN.com: Diver soars past own record

2008-06-27 Thread dlocklear01

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RE: [ot_caving] an option to drilling


This was also pointed out in the story.

From: fholt@townandcountryins.comTo: power_lou...@hotmail.com; 
wavyca...@gmail.com; mikeflan@att.netCC: ot@texascavers.comDate: Fri, 27 Jun 
2008 15:02:15 -0500Subject: RE: [ot_caving] an option to drilling








Our incomes will not increase in the same proportion so if this happens I may 
see if I can buy Locklear’s scooter.
Fritz
 




From: Louise Power [mailto:power_lou...@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, June 27, 
2008 11:31 AMTo: Don Cooper; Mike FlanniganCc: ot@texascavers.comSubject: RE: 
[ot_caving] an option to drilling
 
And I heard on the news this morning that by 2010, gas will be $7-10/gal.



List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 23:54:08 -0500From: wavycaver@gmail.comTo: 
mikeflan@att.netCC: ot@texascavers.comSubject: Re: RE: [ot_caving] an option to 
drillingAnd LET ME - Not David Locklear this time - make this 
assertion/prediction:If you think your electric bill is high now - just wait 
until you charge up your car every night with house current!I will bet that 
you're looking at a $500 per month increase (above your $200 to $300 per month 
bill) if you get an electric car and IF the grid can support millions of people 
going "electric".A guy who can appreciate what energy it takes to move a 
couple of tons around -WaV

On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Mike Flannigan  wrote:
That is the same media who tells us every couple monthsabout cars that run on 
water.  What morons.Mike 

On Mon, 23 Jun 2008, power_lou...@hotmail.com wrote:>>Very interesting. I knew 
that we don't "make" hydrogen, but that's the term the media uses when 
reporting it.>


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RE: [ot_caving] Texas solar power


The year before I moved to Oregon (1988), they closed down the Hanford nuclear 
installations because it was so old it was dangerous. see: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanford
 
After I moved to Portland, another installation just north of PDX was closed 
down for the same reason. Apparently about 20 years is the usable lifespan of a 
nuclear reactor.
 
Most people who live in the area won't eat fish that come out of the Columbia 
River because of nuclear contamination of the water. There is also a fear that 
there is contamination of the water table. Of course there is also the urban 
legend about radioactive cats at the Hanford site. But who knows about that?
 
I do know that several European countries (France being among these) use more 
modern nuclear plants for their power, but I don't know what the safety records 
show on those. They've got to be better than ours, a big percentage of which 
were built in the 40s and 50s.



From: imocaves@comcast.netTo: ot@texascavers.comDate: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 15:42:44 
-0400Subject: RE: [ot_caving] Texas solar power

>Texas is the national leader in wind power and we have the potential to 
>meet the rest of our energy needs with solar power. In fact, if we put solar 
>panels on an area thirty miles by thirty miles in west Texas, we could 
.generate enough electricity to power the entire state at prices competitive 
.with new nuclear plants! 

Hmm.  Read that again, slowly.  "...at prices competitive.with _new nuclear 
plants_! 

Ever wondered why you haven't seen any new nuclear plants in the last 30 years? 
 Aside from the waste containment issue, they're really, really expensive to 
build (more so than new oil refineries!), and that cost has to be amortized in 
the retail price of the 'product'...So yeah, solar probably IS competitive with 
new nuclear; but neither is an affordable or near-term solution. 

Don't get me wrong -- I'm all for encouraging, subsidizing, incentivizing every 
possible form of sustainable energy.  But the graph of the onset of renewable 
energy does not offset the graph of post-peak-oil energy.  We've started this 
project way too late with way too little, and are in for some tough times 
ahead. 

Alex 
 - Give 
this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: 
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[Texascavers] wikianswers - part 3

2008-06-27 Thread David

There are 41 questions on the new wiki-answers page after just one week
of being up:

  http://wiki.answers.com/Q/FAQ/4337

Thank you to all the people contributing.

David Locklear
Wikianswers Speleology moderator

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RE: [ot_caving] an option to drilling

Our incomes will not increase in the same proportion so if this happens I may 
see if I can buy Locklear's scooter.
Fritz

From: Louise Power [mailto:power_lou...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 11:31 AM
To: Don Cooper; Mike Flannigan
Cc: o...@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [ot_caving] an option to drilling

And I heard on the news this morning that by 2010, gas will be $7-10/gal.

List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 23:54:08 -0500
From: wavyca...@gmail.com
To: mikef...@att.net
CC: o...@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: RE: [ot_caving] an option to drilling

And LET ME - Not David Locklear this time - make this assertion/prediction:
If you think your electric bill is high now - just wait until you charge up 
your car every night with house current!
I will bet that you're looking at a $500 per month increase (above your $200 to 
$300 per month bill) if you get an electric car and IF the grid can support 
millions of people going "electric".
A guy who can appreciate what energy it takes to move a couple of tons around -
WaV
On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Mike Flannigan 
mailto:mikef...@att.net>> wrote:

That is the same media who tells us every couple months
about cars that run on water.  What morons.

Mike

On Mon, 23 Jun 2008, power_lou...@hotmail.com 
wrote:
>
>Very interesting. I knew that we don't "make" hydrogen, but that's the term 
>the media uses when reporting it.
>
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RE: [ot_caving] Texas solar power

Louise,
I agree with your statements that big corporations (such as Reliant, TXU, Exxon 
and AT&T are the only ones with the resources to supply the energy needs of our 
nation. Four Johnny come lately small electric providers have folded in the 
last 30 days, probably due to undercapitalization among other things. These 
"big corporations" are basically the life blood of our economy, paying billions 
in taxes, supplying hundreds of thousands of jobs and making it possible for 
all of the lesser companies to exist. Regardless of ones political leanings, a 
windfall profits tax along with the many other taxes and imposed government 
restrictions is unreasonable and detrimental to our economy and to us as 
individuals. Unless you are a welfare recipient and have contributed little or 
nothing to our economy, you should be for downsizing our federal government, 
not growing it. Our citizens already have too great of a tax burden due to our 
wasteful government agencies and their policies. More agencies and more 
programs mean higher taxes and few of us want that. We need big business but 
not big government (which we already have).
Fritz


From: Louise Power [mailto:power_lou...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 11:29 AM
To: rdmilhol...@charter.net; qui...@clearwire.net; o...@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [ot_caving] Texas solar power

rdmilhollin said: "This all smell like a plan of, by, and for the big corporate 
energy providers."

What I'd like to know is who besides "big corporate energy providers" is going 
to provide power and energy to this country? We can't get it from the little 
mill down by the old mill stream. Too many people in this country, too few ways 
to provide big amounts of energy economically. So tell me, who else is going to 
provide energy for this energy-hungry country? Most people don't have the 
expertise, desire or resources to provide energy for themselves, much less a 
whole country. So tell me, what is the alternative? It's easy to criticize, but 
do you have a better plan?




From: rdmilhol...@charter.net
To: qui...@clearwire.net; o...@texascavers.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 23:48:05 -0500
Subject: RE: [ot_caving] Texas solar power

This all smell like a plan of, by, and for the big corporate energy providers. 
What about using all the empty roof-top space INSIDE the cities, such as the 
roofs of malls, Walmarts, grocery stores, car lots, parking lots, 
strip-centers, individual homes, apartment buildings etc. I can see this as a 
job opportunity for the Barnett Shale "landmen" once all the drillable 
real-estate is leased up. They could go from roof-owner to roof-owner 
negotiating for "roof-rights" to set up solar panels for set amounts of time. 
Shrewd building owners could bargain for a certain amount of "free" 
electricity, since the juice coming off the roof is much more consumer-friendly 
than crude oil or natural gas brought up by wells on people's property.



From: qui...@clearwire.net [mailto:qui...@clearwire.net]
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:41 AM
To: o...@texascavers.com
Subject: [ot_caving] Texas solar power

Well this is some info I found today pasted below.
It comes from 
http://environmenttexas.org/action/clean-energy/transmission?id4=ES

I was interested in the numbers they say would power all of Texas. Just FYI.
Quinta

Texas is the national leader in wind power and we have the potential to meet 
the rest of our energy needs with solar power. In fact, if we put solar panels 
on an area thirty miles by thirty miles in west Texas, we could generate enough 
electricity to power the entire state at prices competitive with new nuclear 
plants!

But to bring all that clean wind and solar power from west Texas, we need to 
invest in our transmission grid. Right now, the Public Utilities Commission is 
deciding how much renewable energy transmission to build.

The most ambitious plan they're looking at would create transmission capacity 
for almost an additional 18,000 megawatts of wind and solar power, which would 
reduce smog pollution from power plants by 13% and global warming pollution by 
16%.

RE: [ot_caving] Texas solar power

2008-06-27 Thread Alex Sproul







>Texas is the national leader in wind power and we have the potential to 




>meet the rest of our energy needs with solar power. In fact, if we put solar 




>panels on an area thirty miles by thirty miles in west Texas, we could 




.generate enough electricity to power the entire state at prices competitive 




.with new nuclear plants!











Hmm.  Read that again, slowly.  "...at prices competitive.with _new nuclear 
plants_!











Ever wondered why you haven't seen any new nuclear plants in the last 30 
years?  Aside from the waste containment issue, they're really, really 
expensive to build (more so than new oil refineries!), and that cost has to be 
amortized in the retail price of the 'product'...So yeah, solar probably IS 
competitive with new nuclear; but neither is an affordable or near-term 
solution.











Don't get me wrong -- I'm all for encouraging, subsidizing, incentivizing every 
possible form of sustainable energy.  But the graph of the onset of 
renewable energy does not offset the graph of post-peak-oil energy.  We've 
started this project way too late with way too little, and are in for some tough 
times ahead.











Alex


 



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Re: [ot_caving] Solar grocery roof

2008-06-27 Thread Don Cooper

Well, one of the "coolest" things about solar panels on the roof:  it keeps
the roof in the shade!  That alone will decrease the amount of energy it
takes to cool the building the panels rest upon!  That is a savings in
itself!
-WaV

On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 7:38 AM,  wrote:

>  It was larger than I remember. it wa Whole Food that is doing 24 % of
> it's power with Solar and it was in 2002 that it went in.
> http://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/issues/greenaction/solarpower.html
> Quinta
>
>Grocery Chain Tesco USA To Install World's Largest Solar Roofing System
> Covering 500,000 Square Feet 01/24/2007 *LONDON, UK, AND LOS ANGELES, CA
> -- *Solar Integrated Technologies, Inc., a provider of integrated
> photovoltaic (BIPV) roofing systems, has won a $13 million contract from
> Tesco, the fourth-largest retail chain in the world, for a 2 MW roofing
> system to be installed at Tesco USA's distribution center under construction
> in Riverside, California.
>
> The 2 MW of Solar Integrated's innovative BIPV roofing system will be
> installed on two of the five distribution center buildings and will cover
> 500,000 square feet of the 640,000 square footage of roof space. The project
> is expected to be completed in 2007.
>
> "We believe this will be the largest roof-mounted solar installation in the
> world," stated R. Randall MacEwen, Solar Integrated's President and Chief
> Executive Officer. "We are thrilled to partner with Tesco USA on their
> exciting entry into the U.S. market. Our BIPV roofing system at this
> distribution center will produce over 2.6 million kilowatt hours per annum,
> provide a fifth of the depot's power supply, and save 1,200 tons of carbon
> dioxide emissions each year."
>
> Tesco was founded in London in 1919 by Jack Cohen and started as a market
> stall, with the first store opening in 1929. The company is expanding into
> the United States.
>

Re: [ot_caving] an option to drilling

2008-06-27 Thread Don Cooper

Hmmm. maybe I need to adjust my slide rule   more calculations
inevitably will be distributed
-WaV

On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 11:30 AM, Louise Power 
wrote:

>  And I heard on the news this morning that by 2010, gas will be $7-10/gal.
>
> --
> Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 23:54:08 -0500
> From: wavyca...@gmail.com
> To: mikef...@att.net
> CC: o...@texascavers.com
> Subject: Re: RE: [ot_caving] an option to drilling
>
> And LET ME - Not David Locklear this time - make this assertion/prediction:
> If you think your electric bill is high now - just wait until you charge up
> your car every night with house current!
> I will bet that you're looking at a $500 per month increase (above your
> $200 to $300 per month bill) if you get an electric car and IF the grid can
> support millions of people going "electric".
> A guy who can appreciate what energy it takes to move a couple of tons
> around -
> WaV
>
> On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Mike Flannigan  wrote:
>
>
> That is the same media who tells us every couple months
> about cars that run on water.  What morons.
>
>
> Mike
>
>
> On Mon, 23 Jun 2008, power_lou...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> >Very interesting. I knew that we don't "make" hydrogen, but that's the
> term the media uses when reporting it.
> >
>
>  -
> Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
>
>
>

RE: [ot_caving] Texas solar power


Big corporate energy providers all.

From: quinta@clearwire.netTo: power_lou...@hotmail.com; 
rdmilhol...@charter.net; ot@texascavers.comSubject: Re: [ot_caving] Texas solar 
powerDate: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 12:56:16 -0500



Shell is doing it in Europe why not here??
Nieuwland AmersfootLocation: NetherlandsOperator: Eneco Holdings, Amersfoot 
SCWConfiguration: 1.62 MWpOperation: 2002System supplier: Shell Solar, BP 
Solar, ColtEPC: Ecotec SystemsQuick facts: At completion, this was the world's 
largest residential PV installation. It includes rooftop panels mounted on 
homes, a sports complex, and schools. Planning started in 1995 and most 
construction was finished in 2002. Phased development was by several utility, 
municipal, and cooperative entities with individual homeowners also 
participating. The main players were Regionale Energiemaatschappij Utrecht NV 
(REMU, later Eneco), Ecofys, Amersfoot SCW, HBG Vastgoed, and Novem. Some 
funding was provided by the EU Thermie program. Costs are somewhat 
indeterminant due to the number of participants but were estimated to be €9.23mn
 
Oceanium Blijdorp ZooLocation: NetherlandsOperator: Eneco 
HoldingsConfiguration: 510 kWpOperation: 2004System supplier: Shell SolarEPC: 
Siemens NederlandQuick facts: In January 2004, Rotterdam Mayor Ivo Opstelten 
activated the Sunport generator installed on the roof of the Oceanium in 
Rotterdam’s Blijdorp Zoo. At the time, it was the largest urban rooftop solar 
energy system in the Netherlands. The 5,000m² roof has 3,000 panels expected to 
produce about 325,000 kWh/yr. The €3.9mn project was supported by Eneco (47%), 
Novem (33%), Rotterdam municipality (12%), Zuid Holland province (6%), and 
Blijdorp Zoo (2%).
 
rdmilhollin said: "This all smell like a plan of, by, and for the big corporate 
energy providers." What I'd like to know is who besides "big corporate energy 
providers" is going to provide power and energy to this country? We can't get 
it from the little mill down by the old mill stream. Too many people in this 
country, too few ways to provide big amounts of energy economically. So tell 
me, who else is going to provide energy for this energy-hungry country? Most 
people don't have the expertise, desire or resources to provide energy for 
themselves, much less a whole country. So tell me, what is the alternative? 
It's easy to criticize, but do you have a better plan?

[Texascavers] Etrex Vista for sale

2008-06-27 Thread keith heuss


I have an Etrex Vista GPS for sale.  It goes to the highest bidder over $75.  I 
will take bids until noon Texas time on Saturday.  It is the black and white 
version.  The case has a few small scratches.  It has the original manual.  
They run about $150 at REI.  It has been replaced by the color screen version.  

Keith Heuss

Re: [ot_caving] Texas solar power

Shell is doing it in Europe why not here??
Nieuwland Amersfoot
Location: Netherlands
Operator: Eneco Holdings, Amersfoot SCW
Configuration: 1.62 MWp
Operation: 2002
System supplier: Shell Solar, BP Solar, Colt
EPC: Ecotec Systems
Quick facts: At completion, this was the world's largest residential PV 
installation. It includes rooftop panels mounted on homes, a sports complex, 
and schools. Planning started in 1995 and most construction was finished in 
2002. Phased development was by several utility, municipal, and cooperative 
entities with individual homeowners also participating. The main players were 
Regionale Energiemaatschappij Utrecht NV (REMU, later Eneco), Ecofys, Amersfoot 
SCW, HBG Vastgoed, and Novem. Some funding was provided by the EU Thermie 
program. Costs are somewhat indeterminant due to the number of participants but 
were estimated to be €9.23mn

Oceanium Blijdorp Zoo
Location: Netherlands
Operator: Eneco Holdings
Configuration: 510 kWp
Operation: 2004
System supplier: Shell Solar
EPC: Siemens Nederland
Quick facts: In January 2004, Rotterdam Mayor Ivo Opstelten activated the 
Sunport generator installed on the roof of the Oceanium in Rotterdam’s Blijdorp 
Zoo. At the time, it was the largest urban rooftop solar energy system in the 
Netherlands. The 5,000m² roof has 3,000 panels expected to produce about 
325,000 kWh/yr. The €3.9mn project was supported by Eneco (47%), Novem (33%), 
Rotterdam municipality (12%), Zuid Holland province (6%), and Blijdorp Zoo (2%).

rdmilhollin said: "This all smell like a plan of, by, and for the big corporate 
energy providers."
 
What I'd like to know is who besides "big corporate energy providers" is going 
to provide power and energy to this country? We can't get it from the little 
mill down by the old mill stream. Too many people in this country, too few ways 
to provide big amounts of energy economically. So tell me, who else is going to 
provide energy for this energy-hungry country? Most people don't have the 
expertise, desire or resources to provide energy for themselves, much less a 
whole country. So tell me, what is the alternative? It's easy to criticize, but 
do you have a better plan?

[ot_caving] computer news - windows

2008-06-27 Thread David

MicroSoft has posted a patch to fix 4 things aimed at users
of the new service pack ( SP1 ) of Windows Vista.

So you would think now that they are going to start fixing SP1's
other problems on a monthly basis.

They have also announced that they will have a version
of Vista's successor on the market within 19 months.
They are tentatively calling this Windows 7.

They are promising a smooth transition for users of
Vista who will want to upgrade.   ( to get you to buy Vista )

I bet that Windows 7 will be nothing more than a Service
Pack upgrade to Vista - something like SP2 or SP3.
It will most likely have a new version of the web browser
and e-mail to compete with the competition out there.

It will probably have 2 or 3 new arcade like games included.

Surely it will be slightly faster than the old XP.Right?

I think MicroSoft needs a Windows Gamer version.I have
heard gamers talk about this and it seems logical.

I would like my computer to boot quicker. And I would like to
feel more confident that when I turn it off, it will be fine when I
turn it back on.   I leave my computer on at work 24/7 and that
seems like a waste of electricity.

David Locklear

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RE: [ot_caving] an option to drilling


And I heard on the news this morning that by 2010, gas will be $7-10/gal.

List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 23:54:08 -0500From: wavycaver@gmail.comTo: 
mikeflan@att.netCC: ot@texascavers.comSubject: Re: RE: [ot_caving] an option to 
drillingAnd LET ME - Not David Locklear this time - make this 
assertion/prediction:If you think your electric bill is high now - just wait 
until you charge up your car every night with house current!I will bet that 
you're looking at a $500 per month increase (above your $200 to $300 per month 
bill) if you get an electric car and IF the grid can support millions of people 
going "electric".A guy who can appreciate what energy it takes to move a 
couple of tons around -WaV
On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Mike Flannigan  wrote:
That is the same media who tells us every couple monthsabout cars that run on 
water.  What morons.Mike 
On Mon, 23 Jun 2008, power_lou...@hotmail.com wrote:>>Very interesting. I knew 
that we don't "make" hydrogen, but that's the term the media uses when 
reporting it.>


-Give this 
to a friend: ot-subscribe@texascavers.comTo unsubscribe, e-mail: 
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RE: [ot_caving] Texas solar power


rdmilhollin said: "This all smell like a plan of, by, and for the big corporate 
energy providers."
 
What I'd like to know is who besides "big corporate energy providers" is going 
to provide power and energy to this country? We can't get it from the little 
mill down by the old mill stream. Too many people in this country, too few ways 
to provide big amounts of energy economically. So tell me, who else is going to 
provide energy for this energy-hungry country? Most people don't have the 
expertise, desire or resources to provide energy for themselves, much less a 
whole country. So tell me, what is the alternative? It's easy to criticize, but 
do you have a better plan?




From: rdmilhollin@charter.netTo: qui...@clearwire.net; 
ot@texascavers.comList-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 23:48:05 -0500Subject: RE: [ot_caving] Texas solar power








This all smell like a plan of, by, and for the big corporate energy providers. 
What about using all the empty roof-top space INSIDE the cities, such as the 
roofs of malls, Walmarts, grocery stores, car lots, parking lots, 
strip-centers, individual homes, apartment buildings etc. I can see this as a 
job opportunity for the Barnett Shale “landmen” once all the drillable 
real-estate is leased up. They could go from roof-owner to roof-owner 
negotiating for “roof-rights” to set up solar panels for set amounts of time. 
Shrewd building owners could bargain for a certain amount of “free” 
electricity, since the juice coming off the roof is much more consumer-friendly 
than crude oil or natural gas brought up by wells on people’s property. 
 
 




From: qui...@clearwire.net [mailto:qui...@clearwire.net] Sent: Thursday, June 
26, 2008 6:41 AMTo: ot@texascavers.comSubject: [ot_caving] Texas solar power
 

Well this is some info I found today pasted below.

It comes from 
http://environmenttexas.org/action/clean-energy/transmission?id4=ES

 

I was interested in the numbers they say would power all of Texas. Just FYI.

Quinta

 

Texas is the national leader in wind power and we have the potential to meet 
the rest of our energy needs with solar power. In fact, if we put solar panels 
on an area thirty miles by thirty miles in west Texas, we could generate enough 
electricity to power the entire state at prices competitive with new nuclear 
plants!

 

But to bring all that clean wind and solar power from west Texas, we need to 
invest in our transmission grid. Right now, the Public Utilities Commission is 
deciding how much renewable energy transmission to build.

 

The most ambitious plan they're looking at would create transmission capacity 
for almost an additional 18,000 megawatts of wind and solar power, which would 
reduce smog pollution from power plants by 13% and global warming pollution by 
16%.

RE: [ot_caving] Texas solar power

2008-06-27 Thread mark . alman

 
Good discussion, y'all!
 
All of this talk about solar cells reminded me of an excellent article and 
technology I read about in Time.
 
Basically, all it consists of is using mirrors focused on a tank of water to 
turn it into steam, send it to turbines to generate electricity, and it then 
goes to a cooling tank and is reused.
 
A very simple idea, much like burning bugs with a magnifying glass.
 
Plus, no pollution, byproducts, unstable areas of the world, or exotic 
materials needed (like photo cells). In areas that have no drinking water, the 
system also can turn desalinate brackish water or seawater into useable water.
 
The energy can also be stored to use later when demand is higher or when there 
is no sun.
 
It's already in use and here are some links to read further:
 
http://www.ausra.com/technology/
 
http://whorledview.wordpress.com/2007/11/14/solar-thermal-energy-the-claims-just-keep-getting-better/
 
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/04/14/solar_electric_thermal/
 
 
Very cool technology, IMHO.
 
Let me know what y'all think.
 
 
Later,
 
Mark
 



From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com]
Sent: Fri 6/27/2008 10:31 AM
To: Don Cooper; rdmilhol...@charter.net
Cc: qui...@clearwire.net; o...@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [ot_caving] Texas solar power



Good information Wavy. - Fritz

 



From: Don Cooper [mailto:wavyca...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 12:07 AM
To: rdmilhol...@charter.net
Cc: qui...@clearwire.net; o...@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [ot_caving] Texas solar power

 

A couple of things about solar panels:
1. They are very very expensive.
2. The current technology seems to only convert Infrared into electricity.  
Wide spectrum conversion is being done, but only on the panels that go into 
space - that kind of panel is 10 times more expensive.
I know someone that put together somewhere around 200 square feet of panels.   
Something like 20 foot wide by 10 feet.
It works great.  This time of year, for 8 to 10 hours a day it generates 2Kw - 
around noon as much as 2.5Kw.  (cooling them with a wate hose will momentarily 
boost them up to 3Kw)  As long as the sun is out.  Cloud shadow drops output to 
less than 1Kw.
The cost - and he got them REAL chep - was about 25,000 dollars.  Then consider 
a $5K gadget that puts that energy back on the grid.
At even fifteen cents per kilowatt hour - how long do you think it will take 
for this to pay itself off?
(Answer:  Longer than those panels last - unless the cost for electricity 
exceeds .30 /per Kw hour)
The government needs to SERIOUSLY consider MAJOR R&D tax credits, but until then
Think Nuclear -
WaVy

Re: [ot_caving] Texas solar power

2008-06-27 Thread Scott Nicholson

I may have wrong information regarding tax credits & rebates but I thought 
there were fairly significant $$ available.  I've seen figures as large as 65% 
(combination rebates/tax credits) toward the cost of energy efficiency upgrades 
(insulation/solar&wind systems) 
And, as an asidemy current average energy usage is +/-900Kw/month.  With a 
combination of solar & wind generation systems I can "create" (maybe capture is 
a better word) about 800Kw/month for a cost in the neighborhood of 
$17,000...[Note: the $25,000 figure below seems high based on what I'm finding. 
 Maybe his installation costs were high?]  With better insulation etc I can 
perhaps cut my usage down to 700Kw/month and maybe less. 
I'm actively investigating the feasibility of adding some component of 
wind/solar to my houseany ideas or anecdotal information you guys can share 
will be helpful.
ciao,
 Scott Nicholson
Broker/Waterboy
Discovery Realty Group
512-947-2688
KW Commercial
www.DiscoveryAustin.com



- Original Message 
From: Fritz Holt 
To: Don Cooper ; "rdmilhol...@charter.net" 

Cc: "qui...@clearwire.net" ; "o...@texascavers.com" 

Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 10:31:03 AM
Subject: RE: [ot_caving] Texas solar power


Good information Wavy. - Fritz
 



From:Don Cooper [mailto: wavyca...@gmail.com ] 
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 12:07 AM
To: rdmilhol...@charter.net
Cc: qui...@clearwire.net; o...@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [ot_caving] Texas solar power
 
A couple of things about solar panels:
1. They are very very expensive.
2. The current technology seems to only convert Infrared into electricity.  
Wide spectrum conversion is being done, but only on the panels that go into 
space - that kind of panel is 10 times more expensive.
I know someone that put together somewhere around 200 square feet of panels.   
Something like 20 foot wide by 10 feet.
It works great.  This time of year, for 8 to 10 hours a day it generates 2Kw - 
around noon as much as 2.5Kw.  (cooling them with a wate hose will momentarily 
boost them up to 3Kw)  As long as the sun is out.  Cloud shadow drops output to 
less than 1Kw.
The cost - and he got them REAL chep - was about 25,000 dollars.  Then consider 
a $5K gadget that puts that energy back on the grid.
At even fifteen cents per kilowatt hour - how long do you think it will take 
for this to pay itself off?
(Answer:  Longer than those panels last - unless the cost for electricity 
exceeds .30 /per Kw hour)
The government needs to SERIOUSLY consider MAJOR R&D tax credits, but until then
Think Nuclear -
WaVy


On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 11:48 PM, RD Milhollin  wrote:
This all smell like a plan of, by, and for the big corporate energy providers. 
What about using all the empty roof-top space INSIDE the cities, such as the 
roofs of malls, Walmarts, grocery stores, car lots, parking lots, 
strip-centers, individual homes, apartment buildings etc. I can see this as a 
job opportunity for the Barnett Shale "landmen" once all the drillable 
real-estate is leased up. They could go from roof-owner to roof-owner 
negotiating for "roof-rights" to set up solar panels for set amounts of time. 
Shrewd building owners could bargain for a certain amount of "free" 
electricity, since the juice coming off the roof is much more consumer-friendly 
than crude oil or natural gas brought up by wells on people's property. 
 
 



From:qui...@clearwire.net [mailto:qui...@clearwire.net] 
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:41 AM
To: o...@texascavers.com
Subject: [ot_caving] Texas solar power
 
Well this is some info I found today pasted below.
It comes from 
http://environmenttexas.org/action/clean-energy/transmission?id4=ES
 
I was interested in the numbers they say would power all of Texas . Just FYI.
Quinta
 
Texasis the national leader in wind power and we have the potential to meet the 
rest of our energy needs with solar power. In fact, if we put solar panels on 
an area thirty miles by thirty miles in west Texas , we could generate enough 
electricity to power the entire state at prices competitive with new nuclear 
plants!
 
But to bring all that clean wind and solar power from west Texas , we need to 
invest in our transmission grid. Right now, the Public Utilities Commission is 
deciding how much renewable energy transmission to build.
 
The most ambitious plan they're looking at would create transmission capacity 
for almost an additional 18,000 megawatts of wind and solar power, which would 
reduce smog pollution from power plants by 13% and global warming pollution by 
16%.

RE: [ot_caving] Texas solar power

Good information Wavy. - Fritz

From: Don Cooper [mailto:wavyca...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 12:07 AM
To: rdmilhol...@charter.net
Cc: qui...@clearwire.net; o...@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [ot_caving] Texas solar power

A couple of things about solar panels:
1. They are very very expensive.
2. The current technology seems to only convert Infrared into electricity.  
Wide spectrum conversion is being done, but only on the panels that go into 
space - that kind of panel is 10 times more expensive.
I know someone that put together somewhere around 200 square feet of panels.   
Something like 20 foot wide by 10 feet.
It works great.  This time of year, for 8 to 10 hours a day it generates 2Kw - 
around noon as much as 2.5Kw.  (cooling them with a wate hose will momentarily 
boost them up to 3Kw)  As long as the sun is out.  Cloud shadow drops output to 
less than 1Kw.
The cost - and he got them REAL chep - was about 25,000 dollars.  Then consider 
a $5K gadget that puts that energy back on the grid.
At even fifteen cents per kilowatt hour - how long do you think it will take 
for this to pay itself off?
(Answer:  Longer than those panels last - unless the cost for electricity 
exceeds .30 /per Kw hour)
The government needs to SERIOUSLY consider MAJOR R&D tax credits, but until then
Think Nuclear -
WaVy

On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 11:48 PM, RD Milhollin 
mailto:rdmilhol...@charter.net>> wrote:

This all smell like a plan of, by, and for the big corporate energy providers. 
What about using all the empty roof-top space INSIDE the cities, such as the 
roofs of malls, Walmarts, grocery stores, car lots, parking lots, 
strip-centers, individual homes, apartment buildings etc. I can see this as a 
job opportunity for the Barnett Shale "landmen" once all the drillable 
real-estate is leased up. They could go from roof-owner to roof-owner 
negotiating for "roof-rights" to set up solar panels for set amounts of time. 
Shrewd building owners could bargain for a certain amount of "free" 
electricity, since the juice coming off the roof is much more consumer-friendly 
than crude oil or natural gas brought up by wells on people's property.

From: qui...@clearwire.net 
[mailto:qui...@clearwire.net]
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:41 AM
To: o...@texascavers.com
Subject: [ot_caving] Texas solar power

Well this is some info I found today pasted below.

It comes from 
http://environmenttexas.org/action/clean-energy/transmission?id4=ES

I was interested in the numbers they say would power all of Texas. Just FYI.

Quinta

Texas is the national leader in wind power and we have the potential to meet 
the rest of our energy needs with solar power. In fact, if we put solar panels 
on an area thirty miles by thirty miles in west Texas, we could generate enough 
electricity to power the entire state at prices competitive with new nuclear 
plants!

But to bring all that clean wind and solar power from west Texas, we need to 
invest in our transmission grid. Right now, the Public Utilities Commission is 
deciding how much renewable energy transmission to build.

The most ambitious plan they're looking at would create transmission capacity 
for almost an additional 18,000 megawatts of wind and solar power, which would 
reduce smog pollution from power plants by 13% and global warming pollution by 
16%.

[ot_caving] Solar grocery roof

It was larger than I remember. it wa Whole Food that is doing 24 % of it's 
power with Solar and it was in 2002 that it went in. 
http://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/issues/greenaction/solarpower.html
Quinta

  Grocery Chain Tesco USA To Install World's Largest Solar Roofing System 
Covering 500,000 Square Feet 
  01/24/2007 
  LONDON, UK, AND LOS ANGELES, CA -- Solar Integrated Technologies, Inc., a 
provider of integrated photovoltaic (BIPV) roofing systems, has won a $13 
million contract from Tesco, the fourth-largest retail chain in the world, for 
a 2 MW roofing system to be installed at Tesco USA's distribution center under 
construction in Riverside, California. 
  The 2 MW of Solar Integrated's innovative BIPV roofing system will be 
installed on two of the five distribution center buildings and will cover 
500,000 square feet of the 640,000 square footage of roof space. The project is 
expected to be completed in 2007. 

  "We believe this will be the largest roof-mounted solar installation in 
the world," stated R. Randall MacEwen, Solar Integrated's President and Chief 
Executive Officer. "We are thrilled to partner with Tesco USA on their exciting 
entry into the U.S. market. Our BIPV roofing system at this distribution center 
will produce over 2.6 million kilowatt hours per annum, provide a fifth of the 
depot's power supply, and save 1,200 tons of carbon dioxide emissions each 
year." 

  Tesco was founded in London in 1919 by Jack Cohen and started as a market 
stall, with the first store opening in 1929. The company is expanding into the 
United States.

Re: [ot_caving] Texas solar power