[Texascavers] navel lint picking dweebs? re graffiti

[Nancy Weaver]

sleeze -  enjoyed this post as much as I always do.  Nice to meet a 
sharp pin amongst the balloons of self importance . . .



Now I hate spray paint



however must take issue on this.  The finest well crafted graffiti I 
have seen in years are on the  sides of boxcars, amazing intricate 
enormous works of art, done (just as 30.000+ years ago) in the dark, 
in a hurry and under pressure of detection and punishment.  The best 
of their kind - and that is a great many -  maintain a purity of line 
and creativity even under those pressures.  They also joyously 
express their culture's values whilst utilizing the substratum in 
delightful ways.  They do in fact, exactly what their greatly valued 
graffitti ancestors did - create subline expressions of art using the 
themes, materials and surfaces available to them.


next time you are stopped at a train crossing take the time to be 
thrilled by the art.


nw

Re: [Texascavers] Airman's Cave Video

[timst...@excite.com]

Oh, this discussion is rich in irony. Ha ha ha. 

So hypothetically, what would be the most reckless way to endanger cave access 
and control? Well, it's not really hypothetical. It seems to me the absolute 
worst thing to do would be to maliciously bury rival cavers inside a cave not 
once, but twice. That might injure or actually kill the cavers thus buried, and 
that would certainly bring about a pretty nasty scandal. The public in general 
would be fairly shocked at the weird motivations of the actor(s) committing the 
burial that no layman would be able to fully explain. So the cave in question 
would be closed and sealed forever.

Now, who would go and do such a thing?

-Tim


Landscape Lighting
Click here to save on landscape lighting.  Top brands.
http://tagline.excite.com/fc/JkJQPTgKg99wpc4pWpfe4SMOZgNhPskLO2U73z3PAzeTnCUNeBgOLo/--- Begin Message ---

Airman's Cave Videos:

Caves should be part of public knowledge.  The public cannot be 
expected to protect or value caves if they don't know they exist.  
Cavers are a force for the good in protecting the karst, and without 
public awareness of caves, in the future there will be no cavers.  
This will be a loss not only for the potential cavers who will live a 
less fulfilled life, but also for the caves that suffer without the 
support form their friends.  But not all types of publicity are 
helpful.  Good publicity provides information and directs people to 
organized caving, bad publicity presents the cave as a challenge and 
says come and conquer, if you can.  Unfortunately, the Airman's 
videos tend to be more of the second type.  They do provide some 
information on safe caving, but there is no mention of organized 
caving, and the cave is presented essentially as a physical 
challenge.  This type of publicity tends to attract extreme sport 
thrill seekers.  The here-is-where-the-cave-is focus of the video 
undercuts the message to go with someone who knows the cave.  The 
producers of the Airman's video might intend to appeal only to the 
best, but they have essentially issued a challenge to everyone.  To 
put this in perspective, think of what the video would be like if the 
producers actually owned the cave.  And, the City of Austin does own 
the cave, and the people in charge do worry about abuse of the cave.  
The recent Airman's video will increase their desire to have positive 
control over who visits their cave.


The cost of cave "rescues" has long been an item for discussion, 
especially after newspaper reports of a rescue.  While much of the 
discussion is about how one does the accounting, cave rescues 
actually are expensive.  In the last Airman's Cave "Rescue" there 
were at least ten city employees who worked an additional day of 
overtime.  These were the most necessary and cave-worthy of the city 
employees who could not be replaced when their shift was over.  Not 
to mention the use of equipment and supplies.  And, if someone were 
to say that it did not cost the city anything to fight a fire because 
the fireman would have been paid even if there weren't a fire, most 
people would think this was not productive thinking.  If fires are 
not considered cost fee, neither should cave rescues.  But, the real 
problem is that our society is so risk adverse that any problem, as 
lost in a cave, is apt to be met with drastic solutions -- close up 
those dangerous caves.  Cavers know better, but private owners and 
the city are likely to take the easy way to solve the "problem" of 
caves.  
Bill Russell


--
William Hart Russell
4806 Red River Street
Austin, TX  78751
H: 512-453-4774 (messages)
CELL:  512-940-8336--- End Message ---
-
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com

Fwd: [Texascavers] TCMA Garage Sale

[Charles Goldsmith]

-- Forwarded message --
From: Linda Palit 
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 9:08 PM
Subject: [Texascavers] TCMA Garage Sale
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Cc: Don Arburn 


TCR is fast approaching!  You have two weekends to find all those
items you want to donate to TCMA for our garage sale!  Get rid of that
extra cave and camping gear, or those great collectibles.  If you
bring an item of significant value, please tag it with a minimum
price.  Otherwise you can put the price tags on items or we will price
them at TCR.



If you are willing to spend some time staffing the table for the
garage sale or gathering garage sale items from your grotto or area,
Please  send Don Arburn and Linda Palit your name and proceed!



Many thanks,

Linda

[Texascavers] TCMA fund raising efforts at TCR

[Diana Tomchick]

Could someone please re-send the announcement about the TCMA fund  
raising efforts at TCR? I seem to have misplaced my copy.


Thanks!

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Diana R. Tomchick
Associate Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B   
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.   
Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)


-
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com

[Texascavers] Paging Travis Scott

[Sandi Calhoun]

Would Travis Scott please contact me off list.

Thanks!
Sandi

-
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com

texascavers Digest 26 Sep 2008 19:06:49 -0000 Issue 617

[texascavers-digest-help]

texascavers Digest 26 Sep 2008 19:06:49 - Issue 617

Topics (messages 9047 through 9052):

Re: Texas Cavers Reunion
9047 by: Butch Fralia

Re: Dangers of cave tubing in Belize :
9048 by: Thomas Sitch

Re: Not caving related
9049 by: Nancy Weaver

Re: Powder Horn and Caving
9050 by: Geary Schindel
9051 by: mark.alman.l-3com.com
9052 by: speleosteele.tx.rr.com

Administrivia:

To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:


To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail:


To post to the list, e-mail:



--
--- Begin Message ---
Can we come down on Thursday?

Butch


-Original Message-
From: Allan Cobb [mailto:a...@oztotl.com] 
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 10:01 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Texas Cavers Reunion

> The terms of our contract state that we need to be out of the park by 4 PM

> on Thursday.

Oops, that should read that we need to be out by 4 PM on Sunday! 


-
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Given the number of people who tube through Caves Branch, it's probably 
statistically safer than all roller coasters and probably the freeway too.  It 
was certainly sedate and pleasant when I was there.
 
The failure here seems to be running the trip when the river was in a dangerous 
state... not enough respect for mother nature.
 
~~Thomas

--- On Thu, 9/25/08, jerryat...@aol.com  wrote:

From: jerryat...@aol.com 
Subject: [Texascavers] Dangers of cave tubing in Belize :
To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Thursday, September 25, 2008, 11:24 PM



The Dangers of Cave Tubing in Belize





A 52-year-old woman on a Carnival cruise drowned yesterday while on a shore 
excursion in Belize. She was tubing on the Caves Branch River—in what some say 
were questionable conditions—when, according to one account, she was swept 
under a rock. Reports USA Today: “A local news station in Belize, Channel 7 
News, reports that most local tour companies that operate on the Caves Branch 
River had canceled their trips Wednesday due to poor conditions.” Obviously, 
her trip wasn’t canceled. 

Her husband, who was with her at the time, offered a chilling account to the 
country’s Channel 5 News. They were screaming for help when they were sucked 
under, he said, adding: 

“I don’t remember anything because I think we flip upside down. Somebody was 
watching my wife and I and it was just second and we keep going down, down, 
down and you can tell the water pressure is pushing us inside the cave. I kind 
of panicked and I am trying to keep my mouth shut to keep little air, trying to 
find my way. I was trying t o find where to go. It took maybe twenty seconds, 
fifteen seconds and I was like no more air. I said, I am dying right here.”
Carnival says it has suspended the excursion offering and is investigating. 

http://www.worldhum.com/weblog/item/the_dangers_of_cave_tubing_in_belize_20080925/




Carnival passenger drowns on Belize cave tubing tour

A Carnival passenger drowned Wednesday in Belize while on a shore excursion 
booked through the line.
Carnival has not released the name of the passenger, who had arrived in Belize 
on the Carnival Glory, but the line says it was a 52-year-old woman who was 
traveling with her husband. 
The couple had signed up for a cave tubing tour on Belize's Caves Branch River 
-- a popular pasttime for cruisers who visit the country. 
"The individual was traveling with her spouse who remained in Belize and is 
currently being accompanied and assisted by a shipboard staff member," the line 
says in a statement this morning to USA TODAY. "Carnival CareTeam personnel are 
scheduled to arrive in Belize today."
Carnival says it has suspended all future sales of its cave tubing excursion in 
Belize, and an investigation into the accident is underway.
A local news station in Belize, Channel 7 News, reports that most local tour 
companies that operate on the Caves Branch River had canceled their trips 
Wednesday due to poor conditions. 
"Those who work in the area say the Caves Branch River was too high and that’s 
why most tours were cancelled," the news outlet notes. "But one wasn’t and 
witnesses say around 10:30 they heard screams." 
The station cited the currents on the river. "Those currents swept (the woman) 
under a rock where she drowned," the news outlet reported. "They attempted CPR 
but she was already dead."
The 2,974-passenger Carnival Glory departed from Port Canaveral, Fla., on Sept. 
20 on a seven-day Western Caribbean cruise and is scheduled to return to 
Florida on Saturday.
"Carnival extends its deepest sympathy to the vic

RE: [Texascavers] RE: Powder Horn and Caving

[speleosteele]

The DFW Grotto is approached fairly often by Scout groups to be taken caving. I 
don't know of any members who are interested in doing this very often. I 
organize one trip per year for Venture Scouts (14 years of age and older) and 
have done so for many years. 

What we do send to inquiring Scout groups is the following information:


Caving Opportunities for Metroplex Scout Groups

The Boy Scouts of America publishes a statement of their caving policy and 
guidelines, which can be found on the NSS Website (http://www.caves.org/) as a 
PDF file.  The guidelines list 35 numbered points, the first of which states 
the following:

1. All caving, other than simple novice activities, should be limited to adults 
and young people 14 and over – members of Venture Crews or Learning for Life 
posts, and older Scouts in troops and teams.  “Simple novice activities” means
commercially operated cave excursions.


The following are suggested caving activities for Boy Scout troops or teams and 
Venture crews from the Dallas/Ft. Worth Metroplex:
 
•  Colorado Bend State Park, Texas  – 3 hour drive from the Metroplex – guided 
wild caving trip
•  Longhorn Caverns State Park, Texas  – 3 hour drive from the Metroplex – 
guided wild caving trip
•  Inner Space Cavern, Georgetown, Texas - 3 hour drive from the Metroplex – 
guided wild caving trip by arrangement
•  Enchanted Rock Cave, Enchanted Rock Natural Area - near Fredericksburg, 
Texas  – 4 hour drive from the Metroplex – self-led trips.  Easy cave.  Map 
available at park office upon request.
•  Natural Bridge Cavern – 5 hour drive from the Metroplex – guided wild caving 
trip
•  Old Spanish Treasure Cave, Arkansas - 5 hour drive from the Metroplex – 
guided wild caving trip – camping in the cave.
•  Kickapoo Cavern State Park, Texas - 7 hour drive from the Metroplex – guided 
wild caving trip
•  Alabaster Caverns State Park, Oklahoma - 7 hour drive from the Metroplex – 
guided wild caving trip
•  Carlsbad Caverns National Park, New Mexico – 8 hour drive from the Metroplex 
– guided wild caving trip.

For a super activity, perhaps over a weeklong camping and touring occasion, or 
a four day weekend, a trip to Bustamante, Nuevo Leon, Mexico (about 80 miles 
south of Laredo, Texas), is a wonderful place to take a Scout troop or Venture 
crew.  The cave is much like Carlsbad Caverns.  There is good camping in the 
Bustamante Canyon behind the town.  The people are friendly, and the mountains 
are beautiful to behold.

http://www.showcaves.com/english/mx/showcaves/Bustamante.html

Caving gear:http://www.4bobandbob.com/

Bill Steele
DFW Grotto chairman

 mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: 
> Thanks for posting this, Geary.
>  
> There's also a need for someone to do this at a Powder Horn training session 
> on Sunday morning, October 12th (yes, TCR weekend) at Clements Scout Ranch in 
> Athens, TX.
>  
> I posted this a couple of weeks ago and received no response.
>  
> I would do it, but, I'll be at TCR and the TSA meetings Sunday AM.
>  
> C'mon folks!  Help Geary and me out.
>  
> If you're not going to TCR, let's get these leaders and young folks educated 
> on the value and correct way to go caving. Otherwise, we'll be rescuing these 
> folks (see the Airman's discussion), facing closed and damaged caves, and 
> declining Grotto membership.
>  
>  
> I know that there's a LOT of folks in the DFW area that don't go to TCR (and 
> I know who you are!), so let's see some of y'all step up.
>  
>  
> Thanks!
>  
> Mark Alman
>  
>  
> 
> 
> 
> From: Geary Schindel [mailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org]
> Sent: Fri 9/26/2008 9:49 AM
> To: Texas Cavers
> Cc: Geary Schindel
> Subject: [Texascavers] RE: Powder Horn and Caving
> 
> 
> 
> Folks,
> 
>  
> 
> Eric Holman is running a Venture Scout Leader Program called Powder Horn.  
> Venture Scouts is a coed BSA program for young adults aged 14 to 21 and 
> replaced the old BSA Explorer Program.  Powder Horn is a National Scout 
> program to introduce new Venture Scout leaders to various activities such as 
> caving, climbing, kayaking, canoeing, mountain biking, backpacking, shooting, 
> bear and alligator wrestling, etc.  It runs for 6 days total over two 
> weekends and includes a Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.  The intent is not to 
> make experts out of these folks in a particular activity but to introduce 
> them to the activity and give them an idea of what's involved, safety 
> requirements, how to find competent experts and resources to assist their 
> programs, etc.  It is an excellent program and has been very successful.
> 
>  
> 
> They have asked if anyone is available to give four - one hour programs on 
> caving on Friday morning, Oct 3 at Bear Creek Scout Ranch near Kerrville, 
> Texas. They have a total of 60 people in the class mostly from the 
> central Texas area.  I think they break up into 4 fifteen person groups that 
> run concurrently for presentations.  This helps t

[ot_caving] Re: [Texascavers] Not caving related

[Don Cooper]

It might sound silly but I'm proud of myself for doing something I did not
bother to do four years ago:  * I registered to vote.

*If you're not registered, you only have until October 6th to do so.

Right before the last presidential election - I found out that too late
because I had relocated, my registration was no longer valid.
(Hey,  the voters registration office does not go out of its way to inform
you that you won't be able to vote!  So check it out!)

-WaV

On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 9:28 AM, Nancy Weaver  wrote:

>Ron - you will likely provoke a firestorm with this - of the wrong
> sort, so let me hurry to thank you for posting it.  This is probably the
> most important crossroads for the US, whether we let go of all other
> concerns (like how old graffitti is) and pay attention to the massive theft
> of our constitution, bill of rights and, economy and right to life liberty
> and the pursuit of happpiness.   For anyone who has ever wondered how on
> earth decent Germans could have allowed the debacle of the 30's and 40's to
> occur - you may wish to recall the words
>
> For evil to flourish, it is only necessary for good people to do nothing
>
> Nancy
>

RE: [Texascavers] RE: Powder Horn and Caving

[mark . alman]

Thanks for posting this, Geary.
 
There's also a need for someone to do this at a Powder Horn training session on 
Sunday morning, October 12th (yes, TCR weekend) at Clements Scout Ranch in 
Athens, TX.
 
I posted this a couple of weeks ago and received no response.
 
I would do it, but, I'll be at TCR and the TSA meetings Sunday AM.
 
C'mon folks!  Help Geary and me out.
 
If you're not going to TCR, let's get these leaders and young folks educated on 
the value and correct way to go caving. Otherwise, we'll be rescuing these 
folks (see the Airman's discussion), facing closed and damaged caves, and 
declining Grotto membership.
 
 
I know that there's a LOT of folks in the DFW area that don't go to TCR (and I 
know who you are!), so let's see some of y'all step up.
 
 
Thanks!
 
Mark Alman
 
 



From: Geary Schindel [mailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org]
Sent: Fri 9/26/2008 9:49 AM
To: Texas Cavers
Cc: Geary Schindel
Subject: [Texascavers] RE: Powder Horn and Caving



Folks,

 

Eric Holman is running a Venture Scout Leader Program called Powder Horn.  
Venture Scouts is a coed BSA program for young adults aged 14 to 21 and 
replaced the old BSA Explorer Program.  Powder Horn is a National Scout program 
to introduce new Venture Scout leaders to various activities such as caving, 
climbing, kayaking, canoeing, mountain biking, backpacking, shooting, bear and 
alligator wrestling, etc.  It runs for 6 days total over two weekends and 
includes a Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.  The intent is not to make experts out 
of these folks in a particular activity but to introduce them to the activity 
and give them an idea of what's involved, safety requirements, how to find 
competent experts and resources to assist their programs, etc.  It is an 
excellent program and has been very successful.

 

They have asked if anyone is available to give four - one hour programs on 
caving on Friday morning, Oct 3 at Bear Creek Scout Ranch near Kerrville, 
Texas. They have a total of 60 people in the class mostly from the central 
Texas area.  I think they break up into 4 fifteen person groups that run 
concurrently for presentations.  This helps to reduce the group size down to 
something manageable.  They asked if I would be available to make a 
presentation on caving on that Friday morning but I'm tied up.  They would like 
to have a powerpoint presentation covering cave safety, ethics, cave 
conservation, and go over the caving portion of the guide to safe scouting, 
etc.  This would probably include a gear show and tell, question and answer 
session, etc.  

 

It is a good group of folks for a presentation as they are always an interested 
and enthusiastic crowd.  It's also a great way to find free labor for your 
favorite cave conservation project.  For example, Venture Crew 410 out of San 
Antonio (of which Eric and I have been involved with) has done an incredible 
amount of work at Deep and Punkin Preserve including building all but one of 
the bunks in the cabin, helping clean out the raccoon carp and reinsulated in 
the attic, building the east trail from the cabin to Deep Cave and the trail 
from Punkin Cave to Deep Cave, building the wildlife watering trough, and 
probably 70 percent of the work on the new outhouse including pouring the 
concrete slab.  Scouts have also done a number of projects at Robber Baron Cave 
and Bracken Bat Cave.  The reputation of scouting has changed from being part 
of the conservation problem to being a part of the solution and a strong tool 
for protection, education, and conservation of caves.

 

Anyway, if you are interested and available to make a presentation, they would 
be very appreciative.  Please email me back directly if you can help and I'll 
forward you Eric's contact information. Also, the ability to speak good is not 
a requirement if you have lots of pretty pictures, some cool equipment, and do 
lots of arm waiving.  

 

Thanks,

 

Geary Schindel

210-479-2151 home

210-326-1576 cell

 

  

 

 

 

  

- Original Message - 

From: Nathan Williams   

To: 'Geary Schindel'   

Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 7:54 AM

Subject: Powder Horn and Caving

 

Geary,

 

Would you be available to come out Friday Oct 3 to Bear Creek to 
discuss caving with the folks at Powder Horn.

 

We'd need you in the morning and you'd do 4 hour long sessions.  You 
could even do them at the Bear Creek cave if you wanted, but It might be better 
to do a power point etc with photos.

 

Eric may have already chatted with you about this.

 

-Nathan

 

 

 

Nathan Williams 
nat...@nehwilliams.com 
http://www.nehwilliams.com/ 
nehwilliams (skype - www.skype.com  ) 
210.75

[Texascavers] RE: Powder Horn and Caving

[Geary Schindel]

Folks,

 

Eric Holman is running a Venture Scout Leader Program called Powder
Horn.  Venture Scouts is a coed BSA program for young adults aged 14 to
21 and replaced the old BSA Explorer Program.  Powder Horn is a National
Scout program to introduce new Venture Scout leaders to various
activities such as caving, climbing, kayaking, canoeing, mountain
biking, backpacking, shooting, bear and alligator wrestling, etc.  It
runs for 6 days total over two weekends and includes a Friday, Saturday,
and Sunday.  The intent is not to make experts out of these folks in a
particular activity but to introduce them to the activity and give them
an idea of what's involved, safety requirements, how to find competent
experts and resources to assist their programs, etc.  It is an excellent
program and has been very successful.

 

They have asked if anyone is available to give four - one hour programs
on caving on Friday morning, Oct 3 at Bear Creek Scout Ranch near
Kerrville, Texas. They have a total of 60 people in the class mostly
from the central Texas area.  I think they break up into 4 fifteen
person groups that run concurrently for presentations.  This helps to
reduce the group size down to something manageable.  They asked if I
would be available to make a presentation on caving on that Friday
morning but I'm tied up.  They would like to have a powerpoint
presentation covering cave safety, ethics, cave conservation, and go
over the caving portion of the guide to safe scouting, etc.  This would
probably include a gear show and tell, question and answer session, etc.


 

It is a good group of folks for a presentation as they are always an
interested and enthusiastic crowd.  It's also a great way to find free
labor for your favorite cave conservation project.  For example, Venture
Crew 410 out of San Antonio (of which Eric and I have been involved
with) has done an incredible amount of work at Deep and Punkin Preserve
including building all but one of the bunks in the cabin, helping clean
out the raccoon carp and reinsulated in the attic, building the east
trail from the cabin to Deep Cave and the trail from Punkin Cave to Deep
Cave, building the wildlife watering trough, and probably 70 percent of
the work on the new outhouse including pouring the concrete slab.
Scouts have also done a number of projects at Robber Baron Cave and
Bracken Bat Cave.  The reputation of scouting has changed from being
part of the conservation problem to being a part of the solution and a
strong tool for protection, education, and conservation of caves.

 

Anyway, if you are interested and available to make a presentation, they
would be very appreciative.  Please email me back directly if you can
help and I'll forward you Eric's contact information. Also, the ability
to speak good is not a requirement if you have lots of pretty pictures,
some cool equipment, and do lots of arm waiving.  

 

Thanks,

 

Geary Schindel

210-479-2151 home

210-326-1576 cell

 

  

 

 

 

  

- Original Message - 

From: Nathan Williams   

To: 'Geary Schindel'   

Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 7:54 AM

Subject: Powder Horn and Caving

 

Geary,

 

Would you be available to come out Friday Oct 3 to Bear Creek to
discuss caving with the folks at Powder Horn.

 

We'd need you in the morning and you'd do 4 hour long sessions.
You could even do them at the Bear Creek cave if you wanted, but It
might be better to do a power point etc with photos.

 

Eric may have already chatted with you about this.

 

-Nathan

 

 

 

Nathan Williams 
nat...@nehwilliams.com 
http://www.nehwilliams.com/ 
nehwilliams (skype - www.skype.com  ) 
210.757.4699 (phone) 
210.275.6111 (cell) 
512.366.9936 (fax) 

 

 

Re: [Texascavers] Not caving related

[Nancy Weaver]

  Ron - you will likely provoke a firestorm with this - of the wrong 
sort, so let me hurry to thank you for posting it.  This is probably 
the most important crossroads for the US, whether we let go of all 
other concerns (like how old graffitti is) and pay attention to the 
massive theft of our constitution, bill of rights and, economy and 
right to life liberty and the pursuit of happpiness.   For anyone who 
has ever wondered how on earth decent Germans could have allowed the 
debacle of the 30's and 40's to occur - you may wish to recall the 
words


For evil to flourish, it is only necessary for good people to do nothing

Nancy

Re: [Texascavers] Dangers of cave tubing in Belize :

[Thomas Sitch]

Given the number of people who tube through Caves Branch, it's probably 
statistically safer than all roller coasters and probably the freeway too.  It 
was certainly sedate and pleasant when I was there.
 
The failure here seems to be running the trip when the river was in a dangerous 
state... not enough respect for mother nature.
 
~~Thomas

--- On Thu, 9/25/08, jerryat...@aol.com  wrote:

From: jerryat...@aol.com 
Subject: [Texascavers] Dangers of cave tubing in Belize :
To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Thursday, September 25, 2008, 11:24 PM



The Dangers of Cave Tubing in Belize





A 52-year-old woman on a Carnival cruise drowned yesterday while on a shore 
excursion in Belize. She was tubing on the Caves Branch River—in what some say 
were questionable conditions—when, according to one account, she was swept 
under a rock. Reports USA Today: “A local news station in Belize, Channel 7 
News, reports that most local tour companies that operate on the Caves Branch 
River had canceled their trips Wednesday due to poor conditions.” Obviously, 
her trip wasn’t canceled. 

Her husband, who was with her at the time, offered a chilling account to the 
country’s Channel 5 News. They were screaming for help when they were sucked 
under, he said, adding: 

“I don’t remember anything because I think we flip upside down. Somebody was 
watching my wife and I and it was just second and we keep going down, down, 
down and you can tell the water pressure is pushing us inside the cave. I kind 
of panicked and I am trying to keep my mouth shut to keep little air, trying to 
find my way. I was trying t o find where to go. It took maybe twenty seconds, 
fifteen seconds and I was like no more air. I said, I am dying right here.”
Carnival says it has suspended the excursion offering and is investigating. 

http://www.worldhum.com/weblog/item/the_dangers_of_cave_tubing_in_belize_20080925/




Carnival passenger drowns on Belize cave tubing tour

A Carnival passenger drowned Wednesday in Belize while on a shore excursion 
booked through the line.
Carnival has not released the name of the passenger, who had arrived in Belize 
on the Carnival Glory, but the line says it was a 52-year-old woman who was 
traveling with her husband. 
The couple had signed up for a cave tubing tour on Belize's Caves Branch River 
-- a popular pasttime for cruisers who visit the country. 
"The individual was traveling with her spouse who remained in Belize and is 
currently being accompanied and assisted by a shipboard staff member," the line 
says in a statement this morning to USA TODAY. "Carnival CareTeam personnel are 
scheduled to arrive in Belize today."
Carnival says it has suspended all future sales of its cave tubing excursion in 
Belize, and an investigation into the accident is underway.
A local news station in Belize, Channel 7 News, reports that most local tour 
companies that operate on the Caves Branch River had canceled their trips 
Wednesday due to poor conditions. 
"Those who work in the area say the Caves Branch River was too high and that’s 
why most tours were cancelled," the news outlet notes. "But one wasn’t and 
witnesses say around 10:30 they heard screams." 
The station cited the currents on the river. "Those currents swept (the woman) 
under a rock where she drowned," the news outlet reported. "They attempted CPR 
but she was already dead."
The 2,974-passenger Carnival Glory departed from Port Canaveral, Fla., on Sept. 
20 on a seven-day Western Caribbean cruise and is scheduled to return to 
Florida on Saturday.
"Carnival extends its deepest sympathy to the victim’s family and loved ones 
during this difficult time and will continue to offer our full assistance and 
support," the line says in its statement.

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/cruises/item.aspx?type=blog&ak=56115982.blog



Find phone numbers fast with the New AOL Yellow Pages! 

[ot_caving] Hurricane Ike - Galveston

[Quinta Wilkinson]

I talked to a friend who stayed on Galveston last night (again) and his 
electricity was back on. He has had phone service most of the time. His phone 
would not always ring but he could call out. His cell would have worked but he 
did not have a car charger so he limited his use. They had at least one come 
and go type store on the seawall that had only a few inches of water and was 
open to sell what was not in the fridge very soon after. Kroger was up very 
quick with a big generator and he still has the batteries he started with in 
his radio. He was out of some for his lanterns when he knew Kroger was open. 
Also after talking with FEMA it seems the way they talked that no money will 
make it to any one who was not already on a gov check to start with. He had no 
damage but was looking at info for others he knew. We had a small flood in 
Wichita Falls about a month ago and the county thought there was damage to get 
help on the homeowners and it was turned down no reason and the Senators and 
Governor are working on it. Do you think they are going to use the money to do 
some 'other' important thing? Have they not the funds in the Home Land fund?
Quinta