[Texascavers] NCKRI groundbreaking this Monday :
Cave and Karst Institute groundbreaking set for Monday >From the Current-Argus Posted:?11/21/2008 04:47:07 PM MST CARLSBAD - It's going to be a long while before visitors to the National Cave and Karst Research Institute walk through a life-sized model of the famous Lechugilla Cave Crystal Chandelier, but a groundbreaking Monday may help those who attend visualize what is to come. At 1:30 p.m. Monday, partner agencies of the institute will gather at the Cascades for an official ground-breaking ceremony to mark ongoing construction efforts. Karst refers to a type of landscape formed mostly by the dissolving away of bedrock over millennia. The Institute is a non-profit corporation, supported by a partnership between the National Parks Service, New Mexico Tech and the city of Carlsbad. The institute's long-range mission is to conduct karst research and education, and develop related management practices. The institute first received funding for the building in 2003, but has suffered several setbacks since. The price tag on the 17,315-square-foot building is currently at $5.2 million. http://www.currentargus.com/ci_11044182
[Texascavers] Shameless commerace
John, Re: Bill Steele's preferred use of women's soft undergarments. In the early days, he was camped underground in Sotano de San Agustin, and he sent word via a returning caver that he wanted to borrow a pair of under ware from a lady at the surface. Later that year I sent him a catalog from Frederick's of Hollywood. Ernie G - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] Fwd: 15th ICS – NSS Sections
Forwarded by Bill Mixon. Personally, I think it is regretable that NSS Sections have been allowed to think they are entitled to schedule and control a session at NSS conventions. That makes sense for things like biology and geology, but having all the little technical groups like digging, photography, diving, and cartography have their own little sessions discourages cross-disciplinary interests. At smaller conventions, this results in a lot of half-day sessions with hardly any scheduled papers and a lot of time wasted in just bull sessions. I preferred the old all-day "equipment and techniques" sessions--which dates me, because I don't think it has been done that way since the seventies. Begin forwarded message: From: ICS 2009 eList List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: November 21, 2008 3:59:50 PM CST To: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu Subject: 15th ICS – NSS Sections Dear Friends, I’ve learned there is some confusion or uncertainty about the role of the U.S. National Speleological Society’s (NSS) Sections and the 15th International Congress of Speleology. Here is what to expect: Section meetings: Hazel Medville has arranged for all NSS Sections to conduct their annual meetings as breakfast meetings. The UIS (International Union of Speleology) has Commissions, similar to NSS Sections, which will meet during lunch. This allows NSS members to attend the Commission meetings and the international community to attend the Section meetings so people can mingle and exchange news and ideas. Sessions: During NSS Convention, many sessions are organized by the Sections. For the ICS, all papers are submitted to the Review Committee. They will assign the papers to sessions, creating session topics as warranted by the number and type of papers submitted. Typically sessions at NSS Conventions are “Geology,” “International Exploration” etc. Given the usually larger number of papers at an ICS, the sessions are more specifically categorized, such as “Geomorphology,” “Speleothem dating,” “Exploration of glacier caves,” “Exploration in [region or country],” etc. Chairing Sessions: NSS Section Chairmen usually chair the sessions on their section’s topic. At the ICS, sessions and symposia are jointly chaired by two people, one an expert on the topic from the host country, and the other an expert from another country. If Section Chairmen wish to help chair a session or help review papers, contact Dr. Louise Hose. Her address and instructions on submitting papers to the ICS are at: http://www.ics2009.us/papers.html I’ve also heard some people wonder how they will do their normal convention meetings or activities, and some have assumed that they can’t. You can! Just contact Hazel Medville to schedule it: techprog...@ics2009.us . The same is true for all UIS meetings. If you are not already scheduled, just coordinate with Hazel. This is an ICS and an NSS Convention combined, so we want to include all activities. George Veni, Ph.D. Chairman, 15th International Congress of Speleology Adjunct Secretary, International Union of Speleology Executive Director, U.S. National Cave and Karst Research Institute -- You may "reply" to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Shameless Commerce Division (OT)
Hey, My favorite "T" shirt is a Victoria's Secret shirt I bought at Goodwill for $1.89. I love how sheer and soft it is. I looked for new one, but they told me they don't carry men's clothing. So online they won't know. Bill John Brooks wrote: > Bill, are you an Eco-minded cavewoman that wears clothing? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Nov 21, 2008, at 11:03 AM, wrote: > > THANKS , Ed! I'm going to buy something right away. Hey, if friends don't buy > your goods, who will? > > Bill > > > Ed Goff wrote: > For eco-minded cavewomen who wear clothes: > > My fiancee Laura Chapuis designs a line of organic/sustainable women's > clothing called Habitude. Here's her website, which has an online > store offering selected styles and on-sale items (click "stores" to > locate any styles you don't find in the online store): > > http://habitude.org > > For those in the navel of the caving universe, the Whole Foods > flagship store on Lamar carries a few Habitude styles. > > Caver Discount > In the habitude.org online store, enter the coupon code "CAVEGREEN" at > checkout for 30% off any order. > > Ed > > - > Visit our website: http://texascavers.com > To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com > For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com > > > > - > Visit our website: http://texascavers.com > To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com > For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com > > - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Shameless Commerce Division (OT)
Bill, are you an Eco-minded cavewoman that wears clothing? Sent from my iPhone On Nov 21, 2008, at 11:03 AM, wrote: THANKS , Ed! I'm going to buy something right away. Hey, if friends don't buy your goods, who will? Bill Ed Goff wrote: For eco-minded cavewomen who wear clothes: My fiancee Laura Chapuis designs a line of organic/sustainable women's clothing called Habitude. Here's her website, which has an online store offering selected styles and on-sale items (click "stores" to locate any styles you don't find in the online store): http://habitude.org For those in the navel of the caving universe, the Whole Foods flagship store on Lamar carries a few Habitude styles. Caver Discount In the habitude.org online store, enter the coupon code "CAVEGREEN" at checkout for 30% off any order. Ed - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] source of abstract?
Can anyone tell me the source of that abstract Shh and forebrain evolution in the blind cavefish Astyanax mexicanus that recently appeared in the list? Journal, date, etc.? -- Mixon -- You may "reply" to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Blind Mexican cave fish research applications :
I really don't know how well-taken the point is. I confess that it was a pompously trite, knee-jerk reaction that I have to any suggestion of intelligent design - which I'm sure was far from Mary's intention in the analogy. Mary's suggestion that human or fish blindness triggers other innate, latent compensating adaptabilities rather than promoting learned capabilities is much more interesting. I have always assumed that acquisition of acute hearing in the [human] blind was either learned or mythical. (I'm a cynical old bugger.) Roger In a message dated 11/21/08 10:01:41 Central Standard Time, wpipistre...@yahoo.com writes: The point of not comparing an evolutionary process with one person's blindness is well taken (I can't seem to get rid of the bold print). They are significantly different processes. There is one thing though I do believe and that is that there is an innate adaptablity that comes into play in these types of blindness, something that is not necessarily a learned process. We are hardwired in many ways and the extent of that is still not completely understood. The epigenetics is a modification of our genetics, but it really doesn't apply to this specific case as I understand it. However, I do see it as a very interesting aspect of how we become differentiated especially in terms of the identical twins. Mary Roger, this looks like a very interesting paper. Do you have easy access to Journals? I don't but would really like to read this article. Shh and forebrain evolution in the blind cavefish Astyanax mexicanus. Rétaux S, Pottin K, Alunni A. DECA Group, UPR 2197 Développement, Evolution, Plasticité du Système Nerveux, Institut de Neurobiologie Alfred FESSARD, CNRS, Avenue de la Terrasse, 91198 Gif-sur-Yvette cedex, France. sylvie.ret...@inaf.cnrs-gif.fr The blind cavefish and its surface counterpart of the teleost species Astyanax mexicanus constitute an excellent model to study the evolution of morphological features. During adaptation to their lives in perpetual darkness, the cave population has lost eyes (and pigmentation), but has gained several constructive traits. Recently, the demonstration that an increase in Shh (Sonic Hedgehog) midline signalling was indirectly responsible for the loss of eyes in cavefish led to new ways to search for possible modifications in the forebrain of these cavefish, as this anterior-most region of the vertebrate central nervous system develops under close control of the powerful Shh morphogen. In this review, we summarize the recent progress in the understanding of forebrain and eye modifications in cavefish. These include major changes in cell death, cell proliferation and cell migration in various parts of the forebrain when compared with their surface counterparts with eyes. The outcome of these modifications, in terms of neuronal circuitry, morphological and behavioral adaptations are discussed. From: Don Cooper To: CaverArch Cc: Mary Thiesse ; JerryAtkin ; Texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 12:03:04 AM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Blind Mexican cave fish research applications : Evolutionary progress might need to be rethought from the top down when considering epigenetics. Imagine things that you've done to yourself, directly effecting your offspring (even that of your own 'clone")! Epigenetics (possibly) introduces a mechanism into evolution that has nothing to do with "selection"!!! http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/3411/02.html -WaV On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 11:26 AM, CaverArch wrote: Mary's comments were quite interesting and. indeed, clarifying. I have one slight quibble, however: improvements to the sensitivity of these organs or structures in blind cave fish will be the result of evolutionary selection processes. The analogy to a blind person's 'learned' hearing improvement skills is therefore not quite appropriate. Yes, the point is minor, but a blind person hones his or her hearing intentionally, and any analogy that implies intention or design in biological evolution is a scientific pitfall that should be avoided. Roger Moore GHG In a message dated 11/18/08 09:53:36 Central Standard Time, wpipistre...@yahoo.com writes: This article "suggests" that the cupulae are unique to blind cave fish. I think there needs to be some clarification made here. All fish have what is termed a lateral line running along the trunk and tail and I think also project up along the side of the head. This is basically a sensory system that is sensitive to hydrostatic pressure and other receptors for temperature and electrical charges. The sense organs of the lateral line system are the neuromasts which are bundles of cells (not unlike taste bud clusters).The neuromast cells secrete a substance which is referred to as cupula. Each sensory cell has a hairlike projection which is surrounded by the gelatinous cupula which plays it's part in the sensory input
Re: [Texascavers] Shameless Commerce Division (OT)
THANKS , Ed! I'm going to buy something right away. Hey, if friends don't buy your goods, who will? Bill Ed Goff wrote: > For eco-minded cavewomen who wear clothes: > > My fiancee Laura Chapuis designs a line of organic/sustainable women's > clothing called Habitude. Here's her website, which has an online > store offering selected styles and on-sale items (click "stores" to > locate any styles you don't find in the online store): > > http://habitude.org > > For those in the navel of the caving universe, the Whole Foods > flagship store on Lamar carries a few Habitude styles. > > Caver Discount > In the habitude.org online store, enter the coupon code "CAVEGREEN" at > checkout for 30% off any order. > > Ed > > - > Visit our website: http://texascavers.com > To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com > For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com > - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Shameless Commerce Division (OT)
THANKS , Ed! I'm going to buy something right away. Hey, if friends don't buy your goods, who will? Bill Ed Goff wrote: > For eco-minded cavewomen who wear clothes: > > My fiancee Laura Chapuis designs a line of organic/sustainable women's > clothing called Habitude. Here's her website, which has an online > store offering selected styles and on-sale items (click "stores" to > locate any styles you don't find in the online store): > > http://habitude.org > > For those in the navel of the caving universe, the Whole Foods > flagship store on Lamar carries a few Habitude styles. > > Caver Discount > In the habitude.org online store, enter the coupon code "CAVEGREEN" at > checkout for 30% off any order. > > Ed > > - > Visit our website: http://texascavers.com > To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com > For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com > - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] Shameless Commerce Division (OT)
For eco-minded cavewomen who wear clothes: My fiancee Laura Chapuis designs a line of organic/sustainable women's clothing called Habitude. Here's her website, which has an online store offering selected styles and on-sale items (click "stores" to locate any styles you don't find in the online store): http://habitude.org For those in the navel of the caving universe, the Whole Foods flagship store on Lamar carries a few Habitude styles. Caver Discount In the habitude.org online store, enter the coupon code "CAVEGREEN" at checkout for 30% off any order. Ed - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
texascavers Digest 21 Nov 2008 16:01:15 -0000 Issue 648
texascavers Digest 21 Nov 2008 16:01:15 - Issue 648 Topics (messages 9433 through 9437): November TSA-CBSP Project Report, part 1b 9433 by: Jim Kennedy November TSA-CBSP Project Report, part 1a1 9434 by: Jim Kennedy November TSA-CBSP Project Report, part 1a2 9435 by: Jim Kennedy CBSP trip reports 9436 by: Jim Kennedy Re: Blind Mexican cave fish research applications : 9437 by: Mary Thiesse Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: -- --- Begin Message --- this is the 2nd of 3 parts. You should already have 1 and 3. PROJECT REPORT Colorado Bend State Park 7-9 November 2008, part 1b Team 1 (continued) Debris Cave ( and also Wedge Cave) is located in the wrong drainage in Kastning's documentation. The entire group entered Debris cave. There was a traffic jam in the cave as seven people tried to enter and exit the cave at the same time. The cave was very dusty and the lead cavers reported that the map does not show all of the passage. The left hand passage that takes off at the debris continues and curves around and goes out of sight. With some digging, the passage will continue. The cave is pirating water from the creekbed and diverting it down this passage. Some airflow was noted. Keith took pictures of the cave entrance. The cave has a temporary tag, labeled SAB378, on a tree near the entrance. This is incorrect, since other documentation has Debris Cave as SAB560. This needs to be resolved and a permanent tag with the correct number needs to be installed at the cave. The GPS location in the TSS database for Debris Cave is correct. >From there, the group stopped by Wedge Cave and some entered the cave. Then >they all headed back to the vehicles, and were back in camp by 3:00 PM. An >early dinner and quick (very quick) swim at Spicewood Springs completed the >day. Team one's hours: 50.0, plus 10.0 additional hours for Keith prepping data for this trip at home. Team 2 Lee Jay Graves, Jim Kennedy, Andy Zenker This group's objective was to continue the survey of the lower levels of the Chimniers Delight section of the Lost Petzl Cave System (SAB075). The Chimniers Delight entrance was rigged and all three proceeded into the cave and to the end of the previous survey. To their horror, they found that cave crickets had chewed the flagging off several survey stations, making them unrecoverable without copies of the previous survey notes. Thus thwarted, the group then decided to familiarize themselves with the complex passages in that part of the cave. Many crawlways were pushed, with thin Zenker always able to proceed further than older and stouter Graves and Kennedy. A couple of silt-filled crawls were also excavated in hopes of following the ever-elusive airflow, but only connections with already-known passages were made. There is still a lot of potential for more cave in this area, and even connections to other surface points that may be turned into entrances. The unusual thing is that the water flow disappears down a couple of small crawls perpendicular to the axis of the rest of the cave. The remain to be pushed. Future surveys in this area should take along a small heavy hammer and some digging tools. No survey was completed this trip. After exiting, the trip went to the Jim & Chris Entrance to the cave to retrieve a pack left by Lee Jay on an earlier trip. Pack recovery was an uneventful success. Team two's hours: 21.0 hours, plus 10.0 additional pre-trip prep hours by Kennedy. (continued in Part 2) --- End Message --- --- Begin Message --- Argh! I had to cut Part 1a in half also! Charles, that 30,000 byte limit to messages is really limiting! PROJECT REPORT Colorado Bend State Park 7-9 November 2008, Part 1a1 (1 of 4 parts) Reported by: Jim Kennedy, TSA Colorado Bend State Park Project Coordinator Report Date: 13 November 2008 Person Hours: 179 total volunteer hours (including 76 travel hours) Personnel: Jim Kennedy, Summary: Despite the most perfect weather and plenty of pre-trip hype, only 13 cavers showed up for the November Project weekend, 6 of them Aggies. A large trip was fielded to the McLarrin Fissure Karst to continue unraveling that confusing area. Another, small team intended to continue the survey of Lost Petzl Cave System, but explored many small passages without any survey. And a small group relocated some caves and karst features on Sunday, and found 2 new caves that need a little more entrance enlargement to explore. Kennedy and Zenker showed up early on Friday and finally moved the outhouse to its final resting place, and got it up and running for the weekend. They then cut up th
Re: [Texascavers] Blind Mexican cave fish research applications :
The point of not comparing an evolutionary process with one person's blindness is well taken (I can't seem to get rid of the bold print). They are significantly different processes. There is one thing though I do believe and that is that there is an innate adaptablity that comes into play in these types of blindness, something that is not necessarily a learned process. We are hardwired in many ways and the extent of that is still not completely understood. The epigenetics is a modification of our genetics, but it really doesn't apply to this specific case as I understand it. However, I do see it as a very interesting aspect of how we become differentiated especially in terms of the identical twins. Mary Roger, this looks like a very interesting paper. Do you have easy access to Journals? I don't but would really like to read this article. Shh and forebrain evolution in the blind cavefish Astyanax mexicanus. Rétaux S, Pottin K, Alunni A. DECA Group, UPR 2197 Développement, Evolution, Plasticité du Système Nerveux, Institut de Neurobiologie Alfred FESSARD, CNRS, Avenue de la Terrasse, 91198 Gif-sur-Yvette cedex, France. sylvie.ret...@inaf.cnrs-gif.fr The blind cavefish and its surface counterpart of the teleost species Astyanax mexicanus constitute an excellent model to study the evolution of morphological features. During adaptation to their lives in perpetual darkness, the cave population has lost eyes (and pigmentation), but has gained several constructive traits. Recently, the demonstration that an increase in Shh (Sonic Hedgehog) midline signalling was indirectly responsible for the loss of eyes in cavefish led to new ways to search for possible modifications in the forebrain of these cavefish, as this anterior-most region of the vertebrate central nervous system develops under close control of the powerful Shh morphogen. In this review, we summarize the recent progress in the understanding of forebrain and eye modifications in cavefish. These include major changes in cell death, cell proliferation and cell migration in various parts of the forebrain when compared with their surface counterparts with eyes. The outcome of these modifications, in terms of neuronal circuitry, morphological and behavioral adaptations are discussed. From: Don Cooper To: CaverArch Cc: Mary Thiesse ; JerryAtkin ; Texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 12:03:04 AM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Blind Mexican cave fish research applications : Evolutionary progress might need to be rethought from the top down when considering epigenetics. Imagine things that you've done to yourself, directly effecting your offspring (even that of your own 'clone")! Epigenetics (possibly) introduces a mechanism into evolution that has nothing to do with "selection"!!! http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/3411/02.html -WaV On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 11:26 AM, CaverArch wrote: Mary's comments were quite interesting and. indeed, clarifying. I have one slight quibble, however: improvements to the sensitivity of these organs or structures in blind cave fish will be the result of evolutionary selection processes. The analogy to a blind person's 'learned' hearing improvement skills is therefore not quite appropriate. Yes, the point is minor, but a blind person hones his or her hearing intentionally, and any analogy that implies intention or design in biological evolution is a scientific pitfall that should be avoided. Roger Moore GHG In a message dated 11/18/08 09:53:36 Central Standard Time, wpipistre...@yahoo.com writes: This article "suggests" that the cupulae are unique to blind cave fish. I think there needs to be some clarification made here. All fish have what is termed a lateral line running along the trunk and tail and I think also project up along the side of the head. This is basically a sensory system that is sensitive to hydrostatic pressure and other receptors for temperature and electrical charges. The sense organs of the lateral line system are the neuromasts which are bundles of cells (not unlike taste bud clusters).The neuromast cells secrete a substance which is referred to as cupula. Each sensory cell has a hairlike projection which is surrounded by the gelatinous cupula which plays it's part in the sensory input to the brain. There are also isolated neuromasts on the head which are referred to as pit organs which are also sensory organs. Remember that these things are common to all fish. It seems to me that in blind cave fish these sensory organs are more highly developed as say in a blind person who develops a heightened sense of hearing or other senses. It seems like a reasonable correlation to me. Mary TZ From: "jerryat...@aol.com" To: Texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008 2:58:05 AM Subject: [Texascavers] Blind Mexican cave fish research applica
[Texascavers] CBSP trip reports
The Sep and Nov CBSP trip reports were just posted on the UT Grotto website at http://www.utgrotto.org/projects/cbsp.asp, for those of you who want to read November the way it was meant to be. Thanks to webmaster Tone Garot for this speedy addition! -- Crash
[Texascavers] November TSA-CBSP Project Report, part 1a2
part 2 of 4 PROJECT REPORT Colorado Bend State Park 7-9 November 2008, Part 1a2 (2 of 4) Team 1 (continued) Keith put this team together in order to re-visit the McLarrin Fissure Karst in his continuing effort to re-locate and identify the eighteen caves from the 1978 Kastning survey of the area. Team 1 left the caver campground at 10:00 AM Saturday morning. Their plan was to start at the southern end of the line of caves and work their way north and back to the vehicles. The first cave was therefore Crack Pot, but it was never found. Heading north, they ran across a fissure that was not on the old survey. Most of the group explored the cave, but it was not otherwise documented (surveyed and photographed). Heading northwest, they encountered another sink, but it also was not properly documented. A little more to the northeast they found another fissure. Almost everybody entered the fissure, where the group spent some time. Mike Krell got a GPS location on the cave. As the group was about to leave, Keith noticed a nearby tree with the tag "SAB275", confirming that the cave was Angel Fissure. All coordinates taken by the TSA teams during this project are stored with the Texas Speleological Survey and witheld from the published version of this trip report. >From there, another fissure was found about 100 meters north that was not part >of the Kastning survey. They called it simply Cave 2. The fissure was pretty >similar to Crack Pot, but did not mach the map well enough. A quick >description of the fissure was written up. The cave drops six feet near the >southeast corner. Then it drops another three feet into a crawlway. The >crawlway continues some estimated 25 feet to where it branches. After the >branch, the main passage continues another 50 feet to where it branches again. > One of the branches is five feet tall by ten feet wide. Some soda straws and >other formations were noted in the cave. Near the end, about eight bats were >observed, but not identified [probably tri-colored bats (Parastrellus >subflavus) - J. Kennedy]. Lots of snail shells were found in the cave. The >Aggies wanted to call it Kick A.S.S. Cave, after their club, the Aggie >Speleological Society. Matt said it was blowing as much air as the entrance >to Airman's Cave in Austin. Keith did a quick sketch of the entrance and took >pictures of the entrance. The group located their position on the topographic map, then took a compass heading to Slumped Rock Fissure (SAB330). The cave was positively identified from the map and the slumped rock in the entrance. There was no tag, so the group installed tag SAB330 on a tree near the fissure. There is not too much to the cave and everyone was getting hungry, so after everybody checked it out, they headed to the cars by way of Debris Cave. (continued in parts 1b and 2)
[Texascavers] November TSA-CBSP Project Report, part 1a1
Argh! I had to cut Part 1a in half also! Charles, that 30,000 byte limit to messages is really limiting! PROJECT REPORT Colorado Bend State Park 7-9 November 2008, Part 1a1 (1 of 4 parts) Reported by: Jim Kennedy, TSA Colorado Bend State Park Project Coordinator Report Date: 13 November 2008 Person Hours: 179 total volunteer hours (including 76 travel hours) Personnel: Jim Kennedy, Summary: Despite the most perfect weather and plenty of pre-trip hype, only 13 cavers showed up for the November Project weekend, 6 of them Aggies. A large trip was fielded to the McLarrin Fissure Karst to continue unraveling that confusing area. Another, small team intended to continue the survey of Lost Petzl Cave System, but explored many small passages without any survey. And a small group relocated some caves and karst features on Sunday, and found 2 new caves that need a little more entrance enlargement to explore. Kennedy and Zenker showed up early on Friday and finally moved the outhouse to its final resting place, and got it up and running for the weekend. They then cut up the downed cedar elm behind the campfire circle with Kennedy's chainsaw. Heuss the elder helped somewhat with the firewood, while Heuss the younger watched and smoked. Graves arrived before dark and set up his campsite before making a group dinner. Turner showed up after dark after an unsuccessful time hunting on a neighbor's ranch, and the Aggies rolled in around midnight, after turning a four-hour drive from College Station into a six-hour marathon. All were signed in by morning, team assignments made, and Kennedy and Zenker took the roster to the Park office and picked up parking permits. Team 1 Zach Broussard, Krishna Gandhi, Ben Heuss (Heuss the younger), Keith Heuss (Heuss the elder), Erick Jackson, Michael Krell, Amanda Penn, John Sloan, Matt Turner, Drew Wendeborn (to be continued...)
[Texascavers] November TSA-CBSP Project Report, part 1b
this is the 2nd of 3 parts. You should already have 1 and 3. PROJECT REPORT Colorado Bend State Park 7-9 November 2008, part 1b Team 1 (continued) Debris Cave ( and also Wedge Cave) is located in the wrong drainage in Kastning's documentation. The entire group entered Debris cave. There was a traffic jam in the cave as seven people tried to enter and exit the cave at the same time. The cave was very dusty and the lead cavers reported that the map does not show all of the passage. The left hand passage that takes off at the debris continues and curves around and goes out of sight. With some digging, the passage will continue. The cave is pirating water from the creekbed and diverting it down this passage. Some airflow was noted. Keith took pictures of the cave entrance. The cave has a temporary tag, labeled SAB378, on a tree near the entrance. This is incorrect, since other documentation has Debris Cave as SAB560. This needs to be resolved and a permanent tag with the correct number needs to be installed at the cave. The GPS location in the TSS database for Debris Cave is correct. >From there, the group stopped by Wedge Cave and some entered the cave. Then >they all headed back to the vehicles, and were back in camp by 3:00 PM. An >early dinner and quick (very quick) swim at Spicewood Springs completed the >day. Team one's hours: 50.0, plus 10.0 additional hours for Keith prepping data for this trip at home. Team 2 Lee Jay Graves, Jim Kennedy, Andy Zenker This group's objective was to continue the survey of the lower levels of the Chimniers Delight section of the Lost Petzl Cave System (SAB075). The Chimniers Delight entrance was rigged and all three proceeded into the cave and to the end of the previous survey. To their horror, they found that cave crickets had chewed the flagging off several survey stations, making them unrecoverable without copies of the previous survey notes. Thus thwarted, the group then decided to familiarize themselves with the complex passages in that part of the cave. Many crawlways were pushed, with thin Zenker always able to proceed further than older and stouter Graves and Kennedy. A couple of silt-filled crawls were also excavated in hopes of following the ever-elusive airflow, but only connections with already-known passages were made. There is still a lot of potential for more cave in this area, and even connections to other surface points that may be turned into entrances. The unusual thing is that the water flow disappears down a couple of small crawls perpendicular to the axis of the rest of the cave. The remain to be pushed. Future surveys in this area should take along a small heavy hammer and some digging tools. No survey was completed this trip. After exiting, the trip went to the Jim & Chris Entrance to the cave to retrieve a pack left by Lee Jay on an earlier trip. Pack recovery was an uneventful success. Team two's hours: 21.0 hours, plus 10.0 additional pre-trip prep hours by Kennedy. (continued in Part 2)
texascavers Digest 21 Nov 2008 14:45:16 -0000 Issue 647
texascavers Digest 21 Nov 2008 14:45:16 - Issue 647 Topics (messages 9423 through 9432): Re: OT - recent computer news - supercomputers 9423 by: Louise Power 9427 by: Charles Goldsmith Film about Enchanted Rock Cave on You Tube 9424 by: speleosteele.tx.rr.com 9425 by: Jules Jenkins ICS 2009 volunteers 9426 by: TM Raines Bev Shade get together 9428 by: Peter Strickland caves in the news 9429 by: David Re: Blind Mexican cave fish research applications : 9430 by: Don Cooper September TSA-CBSP Project Report 9431 by: Jim Kennedy November TSA-CBSP Project Report 9432 by: Jim Kennedy Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: -- --- Begin Message --- I remember the early days of the HP35. When they first came out in the early 70s, they cost several hundred dollars and could just do a few engineering calculations, etc. Twenty years later we could do the same stuff with something that would fit in your pocket and cost less than $20. Ain't science wonderful?!> Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 12:54:06 -0600> From: wo...@justfamily.org> To: dlocklea...@gmail.com> CC: texascavers@texascavers.com> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] OT - recent computer news - supercomputers> > 10 to 15 years ago, a "supercomputer" was much slower than our current> computers, so saying that we will have supercomputers in dorm rooms in> 10 years is kind of misleading. We have them in our houses today,> even our cell phones are more powerful than some of the earlier> supercomputers.> > My quad core mac has more power than supercomputers built 7 years ago,> so its all a relative point.> > It will be amazing how well computers scale in the next 10 years. The> megahertz/gigahertz race is basically over, they aren't making them> faster in that aspect, they are adding more core's, parallel> processing and upping the bus speeds that the cpu's communicate with> the rest of the computer (memory, video, hard drive, peripherals).> > Unless you are doing very processor intensive things, more than a> dual-core is a waste. Most modern applications don't even use more> than 1 core, video/audio encoding or computational research is about> the only thing that you can do to tax your home computers processor.> I say a dual-core, because of the modern Windows O/S, it's handy to> have one core for it, and the 2nd core for your application. More> than 2 are really wasted unless you are utilizing it for a specific> reason. Of course, this is all my opinion and observations :)> > Charles> > On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 11:42 AM, David wrote:> > I am posting this off-topic here because nearly everybody on Cavetex> > uses computers,> > and a few Cavetex posters are computer enthusiast.> >> > ( please reply by subscribing to: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com )> >> >> > Supercomputers are back in the news again.> >> > http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9120741&source=rss_news> >> > IBM's new RoadRunner claims to be the fastest, by breaking> > the petaflop barrier, but Cray is already claiming they beat that.> >> > Meanwhile, wealthy computer users can purchase their very> > own supercomputer.> >> > http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2334950,00.asp> >> > While the starting price is $ 10,000, there are computers out there> > now in the $ 5,000 range that claim to be able to challenge supercomputers,> > on certain task.> >> > It would seem probable that college students will have supercomputers> > in the dorm rooms in 10 years, well at least grad students and computer> > science majors.> >> > I bet there is a caver out there with the Apple 8 core computer.> >> > http://www.apple.com/macpro/performance.html> >> > And if that isn't fast enough for you, Apple plans to make it faster next year:> >> > http://www.macblogz.com/2008/11/13/intel-leaks-point-to-mac-pro-updates-early-next-year/> >> >> > David Locklear> > Fort Bend County Armchair Cavers Association ( FBCACA )> >> >> > Ref:> >> > http://www.xconomy.com/boston/2008/09/16/cray-microsoft-team-up-to-sell-25k-windows-supercomputer-will-it-blue-screen/> >> > http://www.xconomy.com/?attachment_id=4892> >> > http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/Colfax-International-Launches-Tesla-Personal/story.aspx?guid=%7BC47183E9-3D9C-45EC-86C0-34AF72A0D011%7D> >> > http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122697768258136325.html?mod=googlenews_wsj> >> > http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/546517/> >> > -> > Visit our website: http://texascavers.com> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com> > For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com> >> >> >
[Texascavers] November TSA-CBSP Project Report
CaveTex told me the full trip report was too long, and refused to send it, so I cut it into two parts. Here is the rest. -- Crash PROJECT REPORT (continued) Colorado Bend State Park 7-9 November 2008 Team 3 Jim Kennedy, Michael Krell, Andy Zenker With great weather and not really hurry to go home, Kennedy put together a small team to relocate and check out some karst features and poke around a bit for new stuff. After loading the GPS with the appropriate coordinates, the three left camp, parked at the gravel stockpile, and headed off into the woods. The first stop was Blue Lead (SAB588). This turned out to be a really tiny drain and not worth digging. There is no tag. It is included in the list for the record only. Corrected coordinates were taken. (All coordinates on this day have less than 4m estimated position error.) On the way down the drainage, Mike found a small hole and started pulling out rocks. Jim joined him, saying "whenever I find something like this, I always look around to see if there is a bigger hole nearby." Sure enough, he spotted a slump about 30 feet away. They were joined by Andy, and a mad frenzy of rock-pulling ensued. Sure enough, it is a cave, but the entrance needs widened (no tools were at hand that day) before even super-skinny Andy can fit. It was named Cracklin Cave, and was GPSed. Next on the list and continuing down-drainage was Gravel Suckhole #1 (SAB284). This is a real cave, and needs mapping. It is tagged. Mike also found another obvious rock-filled entrance nearby, and another rock-moving episode occurred. This is also still too tight for Andy, but looks good. It is now called Smiley Cave, and was GPSed. In order to actually get underground, Mike and Andy checked out Gravel Suckhole #1 while Jim poked around on the surface, enjoying the sun. Continuing down-drainage, the group located their last creek-bed objective, Gravel Suckhole #2 (SAB270). This actually cleared up some confusion in the database, since there was another record nearby listed as SAB270 (with no name), and Gravel Suckhole #2 wasn't supposed to have an SAB number assigned. The feature was easily found, and no other features were any where nearby, confirming its identity. There is no tag, but the feature is another for the record only, being a shallow undercut along a creekside outcrop. Improved coordinates were recorded. >From there the team headed up the hill to re-find a few more caves on the way >back to the car. The first was a cave I remembered as Beginners Luck Cave >(SAB213). We found the tag clearly marked with those numbers. But it was >near the coordinates for Upper Cave (SAB112). We never found the tag for >SAB112, so we are unclear about this cave's true identity. It is located at >0548220e, 3434465n, 420m elevation. Mike and Andy checked it out and had fun. > Then off to Psycho Cave (SAB240), at improved coordinates 0548316e, 3434544n, >420m elevation. Finally, we relocated Fence Wire Cave (SAB209), one that >Kennedy had mapped back in 1996. The cave and it's tag were found and >recorded. Nearby, Kennedy noticed another slump in line with the cave, and he >and Mike moved more rocks while Andy scoped out the known cave. A big rock >still blocks the way, but it is possible that this new entrance will lead past >the terminal restriction in Fence Wire Cave. Location of the new dig iswas >also recorded. Team three's hours: 12.0
[Texascavers] September TSA-CBSP Project Report
I am a little behind in this, but here is the September CBSP report. There was not October trip, due to TCR being moved to that weekend. The November report will be in the next CaveTex email. Enjoy! -- Crash PROJECT REPORT Colorado Bend State Park 12-14 September 2008 Reported by Jim Kennedy, Project Coordinator Report date: 18 September 2008 Person Hours: 32 total volunteer hours (including 10 travel hours) Personnel: Mark Gee, Jim Kennedy Summary: Threat of Hurricane Ike kept project participation to an all-time low, but it was a non-event at CBSP, with zero rain, light winds, and generally great weather. Still, stalwarts Gee and Kennedy surveyed 4 previously-unmapped caves, collected more accurate GPS coordinates on about a dozen sites, made biological collections in 6 caves, and photographed everything visited. Kennedy showed up at the Park around 1:00 on Friday to unload his truck and start working on some projects around Caver Camp. He spent about 4 hours with his push mower cleaning up areas recently brush-hogged by Park personnel. He spent about an hour rebuilding the cement-block firepit and carrying broken block to the dump across the road. He spent a final hour cleaning up lumber, branches, and other debris scattered around camp. The three biggest tasks of moving the outhouse to a more suitable location, moving the stainless steel table by the firepit, and chainsawing more firewood were delayed to a future project weekend, due to lack of people. Gee showed up around 8, and plans were made for the morning. The roster was taken to the Park office a little later than intended, around 9:30, because Gee and Kennedy were waiting to see if anyone else showed up. After getting the vehicle permits from Peggy, the duo transferred selected cave and karst feature coordinates from Jim's laptop to his GPS. The original plan to survey in Gorman Creek Crevice (Mark) and Lost Petzl Cave System (Jim) was scrapped due to lack of cavers in the Park. Instead, they decided to mop-up a number of smaller caves and check the status of related karst features. Team 1 Mark Gee, Jim Kennedy The first feature visited was "lead 1", a small unnamed and untagged karst feature discovered during the construction of the new road around Cory's residence and the Park maintenance yard. This lead was relocated (coordinates witheld from this published version). It is a tiny hole, but a true karst feature, and not worth digging on. However, it should be given a proper SABK number and tagged for future reference. Next up was karst feature SBK039. Mark and I thoroughly searched the area indicated by the coordinates, and even expanded our search to a wider area in case the coordinates were off. No karst features at all were noted. If additional research does not eventually turn up this feature so that it can be better documented, it should be dropped from the database. Disappointed, they then moved to Cave by Roadway (SAB258), which it turns out is not near a roadway at all. Improved coordinates were gathered. Despite bad air at the bottom, this small cave was mapped, at 5.45m. An additional 3-4m could be gained by mapping an upper level crawl and climbdown to a small drain, but Gee couldn't fit in the entrance and it was too much for Kennedy to do alone with bad air. A complete sketch was made of all the passages, so the additional survey is unimportant unless someone just wants to bump up the cave's length in the database. Moving on to DD29 Cave (SAB229), Jim once again entered solo since Mark could not squeeze into the tight entrance. The cave was explored through some fairly pleasant passage with surprisingly good air. This needs mapped, preferably by a small team. Improved coordinates were again gathered. Then, Cave of Sonora (SAB230) was relocated and mapped, to 5.65m. We also got better coordinates here. Karst feature SBK062, supposedly in the area, was searched for in vain. More research is needed to determine if this is indeed a valid feature or should be removed from the database. Then the two moved across the Park road and relocated Cat Cave (SAB009). A quick recon by Jim discovered some of the worst air quality of the day, so the cave remains unmapped. Better coordinates were recorded. Next was Lemons Coon Cave (SAB074). This pleasantly large room has some interesting drain holes through breakdown that Jim dug on for a while. They would require a crowbar and small sledgehammer for additional work, but could possible do something. Since Mark could fit and the air was good, a fair amount of time was spent in this cave, mapping and sketching in detail, to 16.78m. We also got better coordinates for this cave. Finally, the team located and mapped SAB286, now named Not Dead Yet Cave. This site barely qualifies as a cave, with 4.55m of surveyed and sketched passage. Air was quite bad at the bottom of this 2.5m-
[ot_caving] lame duck politicians
Would you prefer to just shoot all of them? It seems what you are wanting is anarchy. We could be spending mega bucks each year on good old Queen Liz. Or we could go the way of King David L.UMM I think I like the way we have. Even if it is not perfect. Quinta David said : How much money does this so-called Transition cost the taxpayer? Shouldn't we see an itemized list? For example, Secret Service is working double time. Hey - maybe I need to get a job with them. Certainly, Obama is going to have the highest security cost of any person in the history of the world. How much good
