Re: [Texascavers] a Texas cave diving story

[JerryAtkin]

 
No, no dye trace has been made between the 2 caves.  The caves are  
approximately 65 miles from each other.  Goodenough Springs is a geothermal  
spring 
with a water temperature of 85 degF.
 
Jerry.
 
In a message dated 2/15/2010 10:03:20 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
cvreel...@austin.rr.com writes:

Stupid  question time:

Has anyone ever dye-traced Sorcerer's to Goodenough?  Sounds like the  
bottom of the springs is at about the depth of the  Sirion river.

I ask mostly out of ignorance, mixed with a modicum of  idle curiosity.

CV

Re: [Texascavers] a Texas cave diving story

[Chris Vreeland]

Stupid question time:

Has anyone ever dye-traced Sorcerer's to Goodenough? Sounds like the  
bottom of the springs is at about the depth of the Sirion river.


I ask mostly out of ignorance, mixed with a modicum of idle curiosity.

CV

On Feb 15, 2010, at 8:39 PM, David wrote:


This story is 1 1/2 years old:

http://www.diverite.com/divelog/adventures/customertales/goodenoughsprings/

Here is a map of the cave:

http://www.cavediver.com/img/goodnuf.jpg

Here are some more links:

http://www.goodenoughsprings.org/

According to the link below,

"In July of 2008 GSEP divers successfully penetrated the cave to a
depth of 515 feet, confirming Goodenough Spring as the deepest
explored underwater cave system in the United States."( I presume they
are including the 90 feet of that is Lake Amistad ).

   http://www.edwardsaquifer.net/goodenough.html

That would put it deeper than Wizard's Well whether or not you include
the depth of the
lake water.

The 3rd deepest cave in Texas:

   http://www.utexas.edu/tmm/sponsored_sites/tss/longdeep/tssdeepcaves.htm

   http://www.edwardsaquifer.net/images/goodenoughsprings.jpg


Do they know where all that water is coming from? Chuck Noe, said
he think it is coming from deep underground.

David Locklear

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Re: [Texascavers] a Texas cave diving story

[speleosteele]

These guys are giving us a feature presentation on their project at the 
March 27th TSA convention.

Bill


 David  wrote: 
> This story is 1 1/2 years old:
> 
>  
> http://www.diverite.com/divelog/adventures/customertales/goodenoughsprings/
> 
> Here is a map of the cave:
> 
>  http://www.cavediver.com/img/goodnuf.jpg
> 
> Here are some more links:
> 
>  http://www.goodenoughsprings.org/
> 
> According to the link below,
> 
> "In July of 2008 GSEP divers successfully penetrated the cave to a
> depth of 515 feet, confirming Goodenough Spring as the deepest
> explored underwater cave system in the United States."( I presume they
> are including the 90 feet of that is Lake Amistad ).
> 
> http://www.edwardsaquifer.net/goodenough.html
> 
> That would put it deeper than Wizard's Well whether or not you include
> the depth of the
> lake water.
> 
> The 3rd deepest cave in Texas:
> 
> http://www.utexas.edu/tmm/sponsored_sites/tss/longdeep/tssdeepcaves.htm
> 
> http://www.edwardsaquifer.net/images/goodenoughsprings.jpg
> 
> 
> Do they know where all that water is coming from? Chuck Noe, said
> he think it is coming from deep underground.
> 
> David Locklear
> 
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
> 


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[Texascavers] UT Grotto meeting ­ February 17, 2010

[Gary Franklin]

Underground Texas Grotto meeting ­ February 17, 2010 
 
www.utgrotto.org 
 
The meeting is on Wednesday from 7:45 P.M. - 9:00 P.M. 
on the University of Texas Campus in 2.48 Painter Hall 
http://www.utexas.edu/maps/main/buildings/pai.html

The Presentation will be Mesas Juarez Expedition by Sean Lewis.
Sean went to a region up from Conrado Castillo dropping pits trying to push 
leads into PEP with the Bill Steele and Crew.  Come check out his adventures in 
the mountains to close out 2009 with an excellent getaway.

For information on Underground Texas Grotto activites, please see the website. 
www.utgrotto.org 
All of our information is available through our link including officer contact 
info, trips reports, new caver training, event calendar, and posting links to 
beginner trips or vertical rope training.  

Before the meeting, we go to Sau Paulo www.saopaulos.net for happy hour, then 
afterward we go for burgers and beer at Posse East www.posseeast.com

The UT Grotto needs you, Yes you, the caver with photos and a story to share 
about your adventures, scientific research, or something else really cool.  
Contact Gary   v...@utgrotto.org


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texascavers Digest 16 Feb 2010 02:39:47 -0000 Issue 973

[texascavers-digest-help]

texascavers Digest 16 Feb 2010 02:39:47 - Issue 973

Topics (messages 13691 through 13699):

Re: Cascade Caverns
13691 by: Carl Kunath
13695 by: Andy Gluesenkamp
13697 by: Kurt L. Menking

Lemons Ranch Cave
13692 by: mark gee
13698 by: Preston Forsythe

Re: New caver! Dave "Cave" McClung's IS a daddy-OT
13693 by: mark gee
13696 by: John Brooks

What Are Y'all Doing Over Spring Break?
13694 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com

a Texas cave diving story
13699 by: David

Administrivia:

To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:


To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail:


To post to the list, e-mail:



--
--- Begin Message ---
Fritz, Cascade Caverns has been in a downhill mode for many years.  It gained 
fame in 1932 when Frank Nicholson published a fantasy article in the 
Philadelphia Public Ledger.TSA met there several times for camping after 
Conventions and was there many times for BOG meetings through the years.  It 
was well maintained those days.  Its best years were probably in the mid-late 
1960s when James Brummett was managing.  It was the headquarters site for the 
1969 TSA Labor Day Project for Kendall County.  There were other TSA projects 
headquartered there in 1972 and 1988, and a cave survey workshop was hosted 
there in 1982.  

In 1973, the cave was partially filled with mud and debris from area flooding.  
The Alamo Area Chapter rendered great assistance to get the cave partially 
cleaned.  I don't think the cave ever got back to normal after this disaster.

The last time I was there was 2003 for the TSA Convention.  At that time there 
was a caver tour of the cave and I was appalled at the conditions I saw within. 
 The whole thing was covered with slimy mud, the electrical wiring was 
unbelievable and the whole tour was a generally wretched situation.  This 
prompted the staged photo seen on page 277 in 50 Years of Texas Caving.

It's a rather sad situation.

===Carl Kunath
  - Original Message - 
  From: Fritz Holt 
  To: 'jerryat...@aol.com' ; Texascavers@texascavers.com 
  Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 10:38 AM
  Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Cascade Caverns article :


  Jerry,

   

  If this article is accurate, I was totally unaware that Cascade Caverns had 
"sunk into decrepitude". I don't think that I have ever been there but I always 
thought that Cascade Caverns was one of Texas' major commercial caves. Can you 
elaborate or give me your opinion? Or anyone else who is more familiar with the 
cave.

   

  Fritz

   

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All that has been said is true but the new owner dearly wants to correct past 
errors and move forward with conservation, education, cavers, and scientists 
all in mind.  A good example of planned/ongoing improvements is ripping out all 
of the old wiring and installing remote-controlled LEDs that emit light that 
does not encourage algal growth.  Anyone interested in more info is welcome to 
contact me off-list.
Andy



Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.

700 Billie Brooks Drive

Driftwood, Texas 78619

(512) 799-1095

a...@gluesenkamp.com

--- On Mon, 2/15/10, Carl Kunath  wrote:

From: Carl Kunath 
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Cascade Caverns
To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Monday, February 15, 2010, 11:55 AM



 





 



Fritz, Cascade Caverns has been in a downhill 
mode for many years.  It gained fame in 1932 when Frank Nicholson published 
a fantasy article in the Philadelphia Public Ledger.    
TSA met there several times for camping after Conventions and was there many 
times for BOG meetings through the years.  It was well maintained those 
days.  Its best years were probably in the mid-late 1960s when James 
Brummett was managing.  It was the headquarters site for the 1969 TSA Labor 
Day Project for Kendall County.  There were other TSA projects 
headquartered there in 1972 and 1988, and a cave survey workshop was hosted 
there in 1982.  
 
In 1973, the cave was partially filled with mud 
and debris from area flooding.  The Alamo Area Chapter rendered great 
assistance to get the cave partially cleaned.  I don't think the cave ever 
got back to normal after this disaster.
 
The last time I was there was 2003 for the TSA 
Convention.  At that time there was a caver tour of the cave and I was 
appalled at the conditions I saw within.  The whole thing was covered with 
slimy mud, the electrical wiring was unbelievable and the whole tour was a 
generally wretched situation.  This prompted the staged photo seen on page 
277 in 50 Years of Texas Caving.
 
It's a rather sad situation.
 
===Carl Kunath

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Fritz Holt 
  To: 'jerryat...@aol.com' ; Texascavers@texascavers.com 
  
  Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 10:38 
  AM
  Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Cascade 
  Caverns article :

[Texascavers] a Texas cave diving story

[David]

This story is 1 1/2 years old:

 http://www.diverite.com/divelog/adventures/customertales/goodenoughsprings/

Here is a map of the cave:

 http://www.cavediver.com/img/goodnuf.jpg

Here are some more links:

 http://www.goodenoughsprings.org/

According to the link below,

"In July of 2008 GSEP divers successfully penetrated the cave to a
depth of 515 feet, confirming Goodenough Spring as the deepest
explored underwater cave system in the United States."( I presume they
are including the 90 feet of that is Lake Amistad ).

http://www.edwardsaquifer.net/goodenough.html

That would put it deeper than Wizard's Well whether or not you include
the depth of the
lake water.

The 3rd deepest cave in Texas:

http://www.utexas.edu/tmm/sponsored_sites/tss/longdeep/tssdeepcaves.htm

http://www.edwardsaquifer.net/images/goodenoughsprings.jpg


Do they know where all that water is coming from? Chuck Noe, said
he think it is coming from deep underground.

David Locklear

-
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For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com

Re: [Texascavers] Lemons Ranch Cave

[Preston Forsythe]

We were able to complete the survey by running 225 ft of 6" air duct down into 
the cave to blow out the high concentrations of CO 2.

Ye Gads..hard core.

I have been down in one of those TX bad air pits and I back out quickly.

Preston in western KY


  - Original Message - 
  From: mark gee 
  To: texascavers@texascavers.com 
  Cc: markageetxca...@yahoo.com 
  Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 1:19 PM
  Subject: [Texascavers] Lemons Ranch Cave


Just wanted to make you cavers aware that a new map of Lemons Ranch is 
now finished and it will be at the TSA salone for viewing. The survey is 
complete now and the survey footage totals 949 ft. with a depth of 104 ft. This 
is the third deepest cave at the park I am told.  My thanks go to those who 
helped with the survey. They are : Will Harris, Ronnie Harrison, Rafal 
Kedzierski, Ed Spaulding, Scott Boyd, Bonnie Longley, Justin Menking, Kurt 
Menking, Kathleen O-Connor, Mark Sanders, and Jessica Stevenson. There are two 
dig leads at both ends of the cave but both are grim. Both are in bad air. We 
were able to complete the survey by running 225 ft of 6" air duct down into the 
cave to blow out the high concentrations of CO 2. We plan to survey other bad 
air caves as long as bats are not present in the caves. 
Happy Caving !  

RE: [Texascavers] Re: Cascade Caverns

[Kurt L. Menking]

Andy,

 

I’ve heard lots of encouraging things about the new owner.  I’m happy he fixed 
the lighting.  We pressure washed the algae off of the walls more than once.  I 
can also tell you that all the Bexar Grotto volunteers that worked there in 
past years have been shocked many times changing light bulbs, plugging in 
electric drills, and other power tools.  Even with all known breakers off we’d 
get shocked which only means the owners/operators of the cave didn’t have a 
clue which panels controlled what.  

 

Kurt

 

From: Andy Gluesenkamp [mailto:andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 3:17 PM
To: Texascavers@texascavers.com; Carl Kunath
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re: Cascade Caverns

 

All that has been said is true but the new owner dearly wants to correct past 
errors and move forward with conservation, education, cavers, and scientists 
all in mind.  A good example of planned/ongoing improvements is ripping out all 
of the old wiring and installing remote-controlled LEDs that emit light that 
does not encourage algal growth.  Anyone interested in more info is welcome to 
contact me off-list.
Andy



Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
(512) 799-1095
a...@gluesenkamp.com

--- On Mon, 2/15/10, Carl Kunath  wrote:


From: Carl Kunath 
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Cascade Caverns
To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Monday, February 15, 2010, 11:55 AM

Fritz, Cascade Caverns has been in a downhill mode for many years.  It gained 
fame in 1932 when Frank Nicholson published a fantasy article in the 
Philadelphia Public Ledger.TSA met there several times for camping after 
Conventions and was there many times for BOG meetings through the years.  It 
was well maintained those days.  Its best years were probably in the mid-late 
1960s when James Brummett was managing.  It was the headquarters site for the 
1969 TSA Labor Day Project for Kendall County.  There were other TSA projects 
headquartered there in 1972 and 1988, and a cave survey workshop was hosted 
there in 1982.  

 

In 1973, the cave was partially filled with mud and debris from area flooding.  
The Alamo Area Chapter rendered great assistance to get the cave partially 
cleaned.  I don't think the cave ever got back to normal after this disaster.

 

The last time I was there was 2003 for the TSA Convention.  At that time there 
was a caver tour of the cave and I was appalled at the conditions I saw within. 
 The whole thing was covered with slimy mud, the electrical wiring was 
unbelievable and the whole tour was a generally wretched situation.  This 
prompted the staged photo seen on page 277 in 50 Years of Texas Caving.

 

It's a rather sad situation.

 

===Carl Kunath

- Original Message - 

From: Fritz Holt 

To: 'jerryat...@aol.com' ; Texascavers@texascavers.com 

Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 10:38 AM

Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Cascade Caverns article :

 

Jerry,

 

If this article is accurate, I was totally unaware that Cascade Caverns 
had “sunk into decrepitude”. I don’t think that I have ever been there but I 
always thought that Cascade Caverns was one of Texas ’ major commercial caves. 
Can you elaborate or give me your opinion? Or anyone else who is more familiar 
with the cave.

 

Fritz

 

 

 

[ot_caving] FW: 360 degree pictures

[Fritz Holt]

Interesting.



This is amazing,be sure to click on each one,there are 3 diff. pictures. You 
can go around one way or up and down anyway. It is beautiful and amazing!AG

This is unbelievable photography especially viewed with this 360 degree 
technology.  (Click and drag your mouse around in the picture, up, down, left, 
right, see what changes.)

Use your mouse to move around.

http://www.utah3d.net/SulpherCreek_swf.html

http://www.utah3d.net/PaysonC_swf.html

http://www.utah3d.net/NightArches_swf.html  (The stars at night are big and 
bright)





__

__



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2687 - Release Date: 02/14/10 
07:35:00

Re: [Texascavers] New caver! Dave "Cave" McClung's IS a daddy-OT

[John Brooks]

I just can't believe that he didn't name her: "Margarita."

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 15, 2010, at 1:25 PM, mark gee  wrote:

Congratulations to mom and dad. A little Dave, on the she side, she will have 
mud in her blood right Dave.

--- On Sun, 2/14/10, Andy Gluesenkamp  wrote:

From: Andy Gluesenkamp 
Subject: [Texascavers] New caver! Dave "Cave" McClung's IS a daddy-OT
To: "TEXAS CAVERS" , "Jay Jorden" 

List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Sunday, February 14, 2010, 4:24 PM

I just received a pic on my cell phone.  It's a girl and her name is Hope.  
Congratulations to Dave and the momma!  Anyone got a 0-3 mo harness?

Andy

Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
(512) 799-1095
a...@gluesenkamp.com

--- On Sun, 2/14/10, Jay Jorden  wrote:

From: Jay Jorden 
Subject: [Texascavers] New caver? Dave "Cave" McClung's gonna be a daddy-OT
To: "TEXAS CAVERS" 
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Sunday, February 14, 2010, 12:59 PM

Yes, the New Orleans Saints have won their first Super Bowl. It snowed this 
week in Louisiana. And Dave "Cave" and Kimberly have a baby girl on the way for 
Valentine's Day!

It's all happening today at St. Francis Medical Center in Monroe, La. 

More soon ... 

Re: [Texascavers] Re: Cascade Caverns

[Andy Gluesenkamp]

All that has been said is true but the new owner dearly wants to correct past 
errors and move forward with conservation, education, cavers, and scientists 
all in mind.  A good example of planned/ongoing improvements is ripping out all 
of the old wiring and installing remote-controlled LEDs that emit light that 
does not encourage algal growth.  Anyone interested in more info is welcome to 
contact me off-list.
Andy



Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.

700 Billie Brooks Drive

Driftwood, Texas 78619

(512) 799-1095

a...@gluesenkamp.com

--- On Mon, 2/15/10, Carl Kunath  wrote:

From: Carl Kunath 
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Cascade Caverns
To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Monday, February 15, 2010, 11:55 AM



 





 



Fritz, Cascade Caverns has been in a downhill 
mode for many years.  It gained fame in 1932 when Frank Nicholson published 
a fantasy article in the Philadelphia Public Ledger.    
TSA met there several times for camping after Conventions and was there many 
times for BOG meetings through the years.  It was well maintained those 
days.  Its best years were probably in the mid-late 1960s when James 
Brummett was managing.  It was the headquarters site for the 1969 TSA Labor 
Day Project for Kendall County.  There were other TSA projects 
headquartered there in 1972 and 1988, and a cave survey workshop was hosted 
there in 1982.  
 
In 1973, the cave was partially filled with mud 
and debris from area flooding.  The Alamo Area Chapter rendered great 
assistance to get the cave partially cleaned.  I don't think the cave ever 
got back to normal after this disaster.
 
The last time I was there was 2003 for the TSA 
Convention.  At that time there was a caver tour of the cave and I was 
appalled at the conditions I saw within.  The whole thing was covered with 
slimy mud, the electrical wiring was unbelievable and the whole tour was a 
generally wretched situation.  This prompted the staged photo seen on page 
277 in 50 Years of Texas Caving.
 
It's a rather sad situation.
 
===Carl Kunath

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Fritz Holt 
  To: 'jerryat...@aol.com' ; Texascavers@texascavers.com 
  
  Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 10:38 
  AM
  Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Cascade 
  Caverns article :
  

  
  Jerry, 
     
  If this article is 
  accurate, I was totally unaware that Cascade Caverns had “sunk into 
  decrepitude”. I don’t think that I have ever been there but I always thought 
  that Cascade Caverns was one of
 Texas ’ major commercial caves. Can you 
  elaborate or give me your opinion? Or anyone else who is more familiar with 
  the cave. 
     
  Fritz 
     
  
   

[Texascavers] What Are Y'all Doing Over Spring Break?

[Mark . Alman]

Hey, y'all!

 

I have permits for the caves below for the week of March 15th thru the
18th out in the Carlsbad Caverns area and room for about a couple more
cavers to go caving with Edwin Lehr and me, as well as one or more of my
kids.

It will be primitive camping, weather permitting, at Parks Ranch with a
crew of Aggies the first part of the week (unless we can cajole some of
the cavers here who reside in Carlsbad to allow use the use of their
back yards!).

We will be arriving in Carlsbad Saturday evening on the 13th, going to
the big cave on Sunday (Spider Cave tour), and heading to the wild caves
the rest of the week.

 All of these are impressive caves, with some fair amount of hiking
involved to Lake and Goat.

We will be doing back country camping at the Texas Camp in Lincoln Nat'l
Forest for Cottonwood and Black.

With all of the hullabaloo as to permits, I have verified that I still
have them.

 

Here's some of the details:


Lake - 6 max
Goat - 6 max
Corkscrew - 4 max


Monday, March 15th - Lake and Goat
Tuesday, March 16th - Sitting Bull Falls and Corkscrew
Wednesday, March 17th - Cottonwood
Thursday, March 18th - Black

 

We can work in Parks Ranch Cave (a fun gypsum cave) as time allows. 

 

Give me a holler back if you'd be interested.

 

Thanks!

 

Mark

 

Re: [Texascavers] New caver! Dave "Cave" McClung's IS a daddy-OT

[mark gee]

Congratulations to mom and dad. A little Dave, on the she side, she will have 
mud in her blood right Dave.

--- On Sun, 2/14/10, Andy Gluesenkamp  wrote:


From: Andy Gluesenkamp 
Subject: [Texascavers] New caver! Dave "Cave" McClung's IS a daddy-OT
To: "TEXAS CAVERS" , "Jay Jorden" 

List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Sunday, February 14, 2010, 4:24 PM






I just received a pic on my cell phone.  It's a girl and her name is Hope.  
Congratulations to Dave and the momma!  Anyone got a 0-3 mo harness?

Andy

Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
(512) 799-1095
a...@gluesenkamp.com

--- On Sun, 2/14/10, Jay Jorden  wrote:


From: Jay Jorden 
Subject: [Texascavers] New caver? Dave "Cave" McClung's gonna be a daddy-OT
To: "TEXAS CAVERS" 
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Sunday, February 14, 2010, 12:59 PM


Yes, the New Orleans Saints have won their first Super Bowl. It snowed this 
week in Louisiana. And Dave "Cave" and Kimberly have a baby girl on the way for 
Valentine's Day!

It's all happening today at St. Francis Medical Center in Monroe, La. 

More soon ... 



  

[Texascavers] Lemons Ranch Cave

[mark gee]

Just wanted to make you cavers aware that a new map of Lemons Ranch is now 
finished and it will be at the TSA salone for viewing. The survey is complete 
now and the survey footage totals 949 ft. with a depth of 104 ft. This is the 
third deepest cave at the park I am told.  My thanks go to those who helped 
with the survey. They are : Will Harris, Ronnie Harrison, Rafal Kedzierski, Ed 
Spaulding, Scott Boyd, Bonnie Longley, Justin Menking, Kurt Menking, Kathleen 
O-Connor, Mark Sanders, and Jessica Stevenson. There are two dig leads at both 
ends of the cave but both are grim. Both are in bad air. We were able to 
complete the survey by running 225 ft of 6" air duct down into the cave to blow 
out the high concentrations of CO 2. We plan to survey other bad air caves as 
long as bats are not present in the caves. 
Happy Caving ! 


  

[Texascavers] Re: Cascade Caverns

[Carl Kunath]

Fritz, Cascade Caverns has been in a downhill mode for many years.  It gained 
fame in 1932 when Frank Nicholson published a fantasy article in the 
Philadelphia Public Ledger.TSA met there several times for camping after 
Conventions and was there many times for BOG meetings through the years.  It 
was well maintained those days.  Its best years were probably in the mid-late 
1960s when James Brummett was managing.  It was the headquarters site for the 
1969 TSA Labor Day Project for Kendall County.  There were other TSA projects 
headquartered there in 1972 and 1988, and a cave survey workshop was hosted 
there in 1982.  

In 1973, the cave was partially filled with mud and debris from area flooding.  
The Alamo Area Chapter rendered great assistance to get the cave partially 
cleaned.  I don't think the cave ever got back to normal after this disaster.

The last time I was there was 2003 for the TSA Convention.  At that time there 
was a caver tour of the cave and I was appalled at the conditions I saw within. 
 The whole thing was covered with slimy mud, the electrical wiring was 
unbelievable and the whole tour was a generally wretched situation.  This 
prompted the staged photo seen on page 277 in 50 Years of Texas Caving.

It's a rather sad situation.

===Carl Kunath
  - Original Message - 
  From: Fritz Holt 
  To: 'jerryat...@aol.com' ; Texascavers@texascavers.com 
  Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 10:38 AM
  Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Cascade Caverns article :


  Jerry,

   

  If this article is accurate, I was totally unaware that Cascade Caverns had 
"sunk into decrepitude". I don't think that I have ever been there but I always 
thought that Cascade Caverns was one of Texas' major commercial caves. Can you 
elaborate or give me your opinion? Or anyone else who is more familiar with the 
cave.

   

  Fritz

   

texascavers Digest 15 Feb 2010 17:40:10 -0000 Issue 972

[texascavers-digest-help]

texascavers Digest 15 Feb 2010 17:40:10 - Issue 972

Topics (messages 13675 through 13690):

The Werkers restoring Crystal Cave, Kentucky :
13675 by: JerryAtkin.aol.com

Re: Interesting website and video of famous Winter Park Sinkhole of 1981 :
13676 by: David
13677 by: Karen Perry
13689 by: Rod Goke

New caver? Dave "Cave" McClung's gonna be a daddy-OT
13678 by: Jay Jorden

New caver! Dave "Cave" McClung's IS a daddy-OT
13679 by: Andy Gluesenkamp

In-cave Survey/sketch computers
13680 by: Travis Scott
13681 by: David
13683 by: Marvin & Lisa

Cascade Caverns article :
13682 by: JerryAtkin.aol.com
13688 by: Fritz Holt
13690 by: Kurt L. Menking

4x4 van on e-Bay
13684 by: David
13685 by: David
13686 by: David

Google Buzz
13687 by: David

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--
--- Begin Message ---
_http://www.nps.gov/maca/parknews/crystal-cave-restoration.htm_ 
(http://www.nps.gov/maca/parknews/crystal-cave-restoration.htm) 
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, Jerry.

I enjoyed watching that.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---

Yes indeed... i liked the music too.
K
--- On Sun, 2/14/10, David  wrote:

From: David 
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Interesting website and video of famous Winter Park  
Sinkhole of 1981 :
To: 
Cc: Texascavers@texascavers.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Sunday, February 14, 2010, 12:29 AM

Thanks, Jerry.

I enjoyed watching that.

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  --- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That brings back memories. Florida is where I began caving about 4 decades ago. Sinkhole formation was quite common in Florida, partly because of an active water table close to the surface and partly because Florida had a lot of very soft limestone. In much of central Florida, the strength and hardness of the limestone resembled that of blackboard chalk more than it did that of Texas limestone or the hard limestone in many other caving regions. Cavers there almost never used bolts as anchor points, because the rock was too soft to support them. When rock climbing, either in caves or on cliffs, we quickly learned not to pull on limestone handholds, because they were liable to break off and become what we called "portable handholds". Chimneying and other push-against-the-rock climbing techniques were much preferred. At one point we experimented with what we called "Florida pitons", which resembled giant picture hooks, similar to the little "nail and hook" gadgets used to hang pictures on soft plasterboard walls, except that our gadgets were much larger, large enough to hang cavers instead of pictures. Hammering large nails into Florida limestone was almost as easy as hammering them into wood, and the metal frames of our "Florida pitons" prevented the nails from twisting and pulling out of the soft rock when a load was applied. They looked funny, but in our admittedly limited testing, they seemed to work well (or, at least, better than the bolts available then). Fortunately, we always found enough trees or other natural rigging points that we never had to trust our lives to "Florida pitons".Underwater cave rooms often grew near the surface, leaving thin, soft limestone ceilings that would collapse and form sinkholes. Most were not as spectacular as the 1981 Winter Park sinkhole, but even much smaller sinkholes could generate serious concerns when they suddenly appeared in developed areas. While I was a student at the University of Florida in Gainesville, a sinkhole about 10 feet deep and 10 feet across formed overnight in a creek bed between two large dormitory buildings, one of which was a 167 foot high twin tower structure that would not have been a good thing to have toppling into a Winter Park style sinkhole. The University of Florida sinkhole was initially too small to threaten nearby buildings, but it swallowed all of the creek water, even during rains, and there was uncertainty about how much and how quickly it might grow. Student cavers in a nearby dorm checked it frequently to see if it would form a cave entrance large enough for us to explore. Sure enough, subsequent rain opened a cave entrance, and a small group of student cavers quickly organized the first and only exploratory/mapping/photography trip into what became known as "Roach Cave", because of all the flood debris and cockroaches we found inside. I was the photographer on that trip, and I still have the notorious Roach Cave slides, which I used to threate

RE: [Texascavers] Cascade Caverns article :

[Kurt L. Menking]

Just my $.02 about Cascade caverns.

 

Decrepitude is probably an accurate description of what happened to the
cave over the last 15-20 years.  Part of the problem with Cascade
Caverns is that the land is owned by one family / LP, and the cave
operations was leased for 99 years (sometime around 1932), and the lease
has changed "ownership" several times, and or passed from one family
generation to another as some rather untimely deaths have occurred.
(and that's another story).  The early lease holders spent quite some
time and money fixing up the cave, installing lighting, building the
flood control dam that keeps the cave from flooding at every medium
rain, and building the gift shop etc.  

 

In 1977 the lease was purchased by Mr. Bridges who built the swimming
pool, anti gravity house, a theater, and the RV campground.  He was also
a professional  sign maker and before long Cascade Caverns signs we
found all over the state and beyond.  After Mr. Bridges sold the lease
in 1986 the cave has seen a semi steady state of decline.  Each new
lease owner pledges to fix up the cave, but soon discovers what a money
pit it is.  Needed repairs are everywhere, and upgrades are very
expensive, and generally out of the question.  Plus lease "owners" are
reluctant to spend great sums of money that will at the end of the 99
year lease revert back to the land owners.

 

For years the local San Antonio cavers helped Mr. Bridges, and every
other lease owner since then with general repairs, re-wiring, flood
cleanup, and many other projects.  Throughout the 70's and even into the
90's many cavers helped out on work projects at the cave.  It was also a
popular vertical training site for cavers for 20+ years and the site of
at least one TSA spring event.  Caver involvement at the property has
fallen off for the past 6-8 years for assorted reasons, but with this
new "ownership" perhaps the time is right for renewed caver involvement.
I understand the new owner would welcome caver involvement again, but so
far we don't seem to have any local San Antonio cavers willing to take
on this project.  In addition to the commercial cave there are also
several other interesting caves and sinks on the property.

 

Kurt

 

From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 10:39 AM
To: 'jerryat...@aol.com'; Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Cascade Caverns article :

 

Jerry,

 

If this article is accurate, I was totally unaware that Cascade Caverns
had "sunk into decrepitude". I don't think that I have ever been there
but I always thought that Cascade Caverns was one of Texas' major
commercial caves. Can you elaborate or give me your opinion? Or anyone
else who is more familiar with the cave.

 

Fritz

 



From: jerryat...@aol.com [mailto:jerryat...@aol.com] 
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 8:13 PM
To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Cascade Caverns article :

 


Amazing phenomena and folklore below ground level


By: Robin Tierney 

February 14, 2010 


Imagine inheriting a cave -- one you had never visited? 

Seven months ago, Richmond architect Scott Kyle learned that his late
uncle bequeathed him Cascade Caverns in Boerne, Texas. Opened in 1932
after teenagers found a hole in a cow pasture, the crowd-pleasing
curiosity had sunk into decrepitude in recent decades. 

Once Kyle visited, he took leave to revive the attraction. Work's still
in progress, but visitors have plenty of wondrous sights to see,
starting aboveground with the abandoned ticket hut made of rock, meadows
of native plants and flowers and the original winding stone path flanked
by perforated limestone. "That's fossilized sea life," explained Kyle. 

"We're right up face to face with geological features from the
Pleistocene epoch formed over 110 million years -- and still changing
with time and floods and tremors." 

Descending 100 stone steps to the reclaimed entrance, you enter a dark
underground creek-side passage. Draped with ever-forming formations,
this "live cave" is an agreeable 68 degrees year-round. Water hollowed
the caverns; now dewdrops fall. "Getting dripped on is good luck," said
Kyle. 

New light-emitting diodes shine just enough to highlight filigreed walls
and movie-set-perfect phenomena. Lights off, visitors would experience
fear-inducing total darkness. 

Threading the fault line, Kyle presented a crash course in cave
formations. Stalactites extend downward; stalagmites rise; sometimes
they meet to form columns. Travertine dams collect minerals spilling
down walls. Hollow, delicate "soda straws" form mini rain forests. A
slender waterfall splashes down 100 feet. Fossils range from mussels to
mastodons. Mineral formations evoke imaginary figures. Don't touch; Kyle
warned, "when skin oils clog pores, rocks die." 

Native Indians took refuge here, cooking with the natural chimney. So
di

Re: [Texascavers] Interesting website and video of famous Winter Park Sinkhole of 1981 :

[Rod Goke]

That brings back memories. Florida is where I began caving about 4 decades ago. Sinkhole formation was quite common in Florida, partly because of an active water table close to the surface and partly because Florida had a lot of very soft limestone. In much of central Florida, the strength and hardness of the limestone resembled that of blackboard chalk more than it did that of Texas limestone or the hard limestone in many other caving regions. Cavers there almost never used bolts as anchor points, because the rock was too soft to support them. When rock climbing, either in caves or on cliffs, we quickly learned not to pull on limestone handholds, because they were liable to break off and become what we called "portable handholds". Chimneying and other push-against-the-rock climbing techniques were much preferred. At one point we experimented with what we called "Florida pitons", which resembled giant picture hooks, similar to the little "nail and hook" gadgets used to hang pictures on soft plasterboard walls, except that our gadgets were much larger, large enough to hang cavers instead of pictures. Hammering large nails into Florida limestone was almost as easy as hammering them into wood, and the metal frames of our "Florida pitons" prevented the nails from twisting and pulling out of the soft rock when a load was applied. They looked funny, but in our admittedly limited testing, they seemed to work well (or, at least, better than the bolts available then). Fortunately, we always found enough trees or other natural rigging points that we never had to trust our lives to "Florida pitons".Underwater cave rooms often grew near the surface, leaving thin, soft limestone ceilings that would collapse and form sinkholes. Most were not as spectacular as the 1981 Winter Park sinkhole, but even much smaller sinkholes could generate serious concerns when they suddenly appeared in developed areas. While I was a student at the University of Florida in Gainesville, a sinkhole about 10 feet deep and 10 feet across formed overnight in a creek bed between two large dormitory buildings, one of which was a 167 foot high twin tower structure that would not have been a good thing to have toppling into a Winter Park style sinkhole. The University of Florida sinkhole was initially too small to threaten nearby buildings, but it swallowed all of the creek water, even during rains, and there was uncertainty about how much and how quickly it might grow. Student cavers in a nearby dorm checked it frequently to see if it would form a cave entrance large enough for us to explore. Sure enough, subsequent rain opened a cave entrance, and a small group of student cavers quickly organized the first and only exploratory/mapping/photography trip into what became known as "Roach Cave", because of all the flood debris and cockroaches we found inside. I was the photographer on that trip, and I still have the notorious Roach Cave slides, which I used to threaten to show to the UT Grotto if I couldn't get anyone else to provide a program back when I was UT Grotto Vice Chairman (about 20 years ago). Our discoveries during the Roach Cave trip included a thin-ceiling dome forming underneath a grassy area where the groundskeepers drove their heavy lawn mowing tractors and a cave passage growing under the tennis courts and extending towards the Tower dormitory building. After seeing our map and photographs, the University Physical Plant people brought in heavy equipment to fill the sinkhole and cave in an effort to halt its growth. Therefore, when I used to threaten to show the Roach Cave slides to the UT Grotto, I claimed that it was a slide show so bad that one look prompted the cave owner to destroy the cave.Rod-Original Message-
From: jerryat...@aol.com
Sent: Feb 14, 2010 12:58 AM
To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Interesting website and video of famous Winter Park Sinkhole of 1981 :






http://www.mattwardman.com/blog/2010/02/12/the-winter-park-sink-hole-near-orlando-florida/


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RE: [Texascavers] Cascade Caverns article :

[Fritz Holt]

Jerry,

If this article is accurate, I was totally unaware that Cascade Caverns had 
"sunk into decrepitude". I don't think that I have ever been there but I always 
thought that Cascade Caverns was one of Texas' major commercial caves. Can you 
elaborate or give me your opinion? Or anyone else who is more familiar with the 
cave.

Fritz


From: jerryat...@aol.com [mailto:jerryat...@aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 8:13 PM
To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Cascade Caverns article :

Amazing phenomena and folklore below ground level
By: Robin Tierney
February 14, 2010

Imagine inheriting a cave -- one you had never visited?

Seven months ago, Richmond architect Scott Kyle learned that his late uncle 
bequeathed him Cascade Caverns in Boerne, Texas. Opened in 1932 after teenagers 
found a hole in a cow pasture, the crowd-pleasing curiosity had sunk into 
decrepitude in recent decades.

Once Kyle visited, he took leave to revive the attraction. Work's still in 
progress, but visitors have plenty of wondrous sights to see, starting 
aboveground with the abandoned ticket hut made of rock, meadows of native 
plants and flowers and the original winding stone path flanked by perforated 
limestone. "That's fossilized sea life," explained Kyle.

"We're right up face to face with geological features from the Pleistocene 
epoch formed over 110 million years -- and still changing with time and floods 
and tremors."

Descending 100 stone steps to the reclaimed entrance, you enter a dark 
underground creek-side passage. Draped with ever-forming formations, this "live 
cave" is an agreeable 68 degrees year-round. Water hollowed the caverns; now 
dewdrops fall. "Getting dripped on is good luck," said Kyle.

New light-emitting diodes shine just enough to highlight filigreed walls and 
movie-set-perfect phenomena. Lights off, visitors would experience 
fear-inducing total darkness.

Threading the fault line, Kyle presented a crash course in cave formations. 
Stalactites extend downward; stalagmites rise; sometimes they meet to form 
columns. Travertine dams collect minerals spilling down walls. Hollow, delicate 
"soda straws" form mini rain forests. A slender waterfall splashes down 100 
feet. Fossils range from mussels to mastodons. Mineral formations evoke 
imaginary figures. Don't touch; Kyle warned, "when skin oils clog pores, rocks 
die."

Native Indians took refuge here, cooking with the natural chimney. So did a 
German immigrant, in the 1840s, after trying to kill his wife's lover. The 
cave's original entrepreneur pulled a truck up to a catwalk and lowered 
tourists down in a big bucket.

The dainty Pipistrellus bats in crevices? Kyle described their gentle ways.

Why do the tiny white salamanders lack pigment and eyes? Cave dwellers don't 
need them.

"This side trip became the most delightful thing we did in the San Antonio 
area," said Fred Beverage. The Pinetop, Ariz., teacher's family marveled at 
pond animals and, after ducking through tight passages, the Cathedral Room. 
Church services filled this 60-foot-deep chamber during World War II -- 
complete with an organ.

Of the eerie beauty triggering communal goose bumps, Kyle said, "A cave 
definitely has that Americana 1950s mystique." The architect's work continues 
-- as does nature's.

Reach Robin Tierney at robintier...@gmail.com.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/entertainment/Amazing-phenomena-and-folklore-below-ground-level-84147782.html

[Texascavers] Google Buzz

[David]

I am trying to figure out what all the hoopla is about  Google Buzz.

If anybody wants to test it with me, I am at

dlocklea...@gmail.com

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[Texascavers] Re: 4x4 van on e-Bay

[David]

This would draw some attention at a caver party:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/M817-Military-5-Ton-Diesel-Dump-Truck-6x6-4x4-Cummins_W0QQitemZ380204999220QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMilitary_Vehicles?hash=item5885fbe234#ht_2589wt_907

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[Texascavers] Re: 4x4 van on e-Bay

[David]

If you got a little more money, here is a good deal:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ford-Excursion-2000-Ford-Excursion-powerstroke-Diesel-4x4-limited_W0QQitemZ150413180911QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item230552ffef

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[Texascavers] 4x4 van on e-Bay

[David]

Here is a van that some caver might appreciate:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ford-E-Series-Van-4wd-extended-1982-E350-4X4-Ford-Van-Rust-free-E-350-from-New-Mexico_W0QQitemZ290401480287QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item439d46ee5f#ht_500wt_924

Check on the giant steel bumpers on the front and back.

Also, note the going price at the moment is only $ 1,200.

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