Re: [Texascavers] photos at TCR

2010-10-08 Thread Rod Goke 
Guidelines, or perhaps even policies, similar to those suggested by Bill and 
John might be a reasonable compromise. I tend to agree with Gill, however, that 
considerate, flexible, common sense guidelines are preferable to rigid policies 
and are a tradition worth preserving at TCR as much as we reasonably can. There 
are legitimate concerns about potentially embarrassing photos appearing on 
social networking sites or elsewhere that could be hurtful to the people 
involved, but requiring every photographer to get explicit permission from 
every person in every photo is not reasonable or practical, especially since it 
would make it virtually impossible for anyone to photograph anything or anyone 
in crowded public areas or to take wide angle photos of any of the facilities 
or public activities. Do we really expect people to get everyone's permission 
before photographing crowds in the vendor area, the serving lines at dinner, or 
daytime contests, such as rope climbing or the speleo-olympics? Whatever 
guidelines or policies we adopt should be moderated with common sense, 
balancing the interests of both those who wish to feel uninhibited in their 
behavior and attire without fear of photographic harassment and those who wish 
to continue the kinds of non-hurtful photography that has been acceptable for 
decades.

The principal new development is not so much the ability to take photographs, 
since that was relatively easy with film cameras even before there was a TCR, 
but rather the ease with which photographs can be distributed now on the 
Internet. This ease of distribution, combined with declining respect for 
privacy throughout much of society, appears to be the real root of an emerging 
potential problem. In an era where people are continually expected to accept 
ever more intrusive monitoring, surveillance, and invasion of personal privacy 
by businesses and governments, is it any surprise that some people are 
developing increasingly cavalier attitudes towards the privacy of others? With 
more and more people carelessly exposing their own private lives on social 
networking websites and saying things like "privacy is dead; get over it", is 
it any wonder that some of them might thoughtlessly distribute material that 
could prove embarrassing or harmful to others? It appears to me that the 
primary emerging threat is not so much the taking of photographs at TCR, which 
has been going on in acceptable moderation for decades, but rather the 
increasing potential for thoughtless and inconsiderate distribution of 
photographs, especially via the Internet. Perhaps that should be the main focus 
of any new guidelines or policy changes regarding TCR photography.

Rod

-Original Message-
>From: John Brooks 
>Sent: Oct 8, 2010 6:58 PM
>To: Cavers Texas 
>Subject: Re: [Texascavers] photos at TCR
>
>
>
>Soif photos are concern...why not just make some "NO PHOTO ZONE" signs for 
>the hot tub and aggie activity zone.
>
>We have way too many "police" as it is
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>On Oct 8, 2010, at 4:15 PM, Mixon Bill  wrote:
>
>It's not just daylight hours. There is plenty of light around the hot-tub fire 
>for night photos, even without flash. It seems to me that one should never 
>post a candid photo of somebody else on the Web without permission, unless 
>he's merely a not-particularly-conspicuous member of a crowd. It also seems in 
>poor taste to take pictures around the hot-tub at all, except maybe during 
>assembly/disassembly, but then I'm an old curmudgeon. If someone makes an 
>exhibition of himself during the TCR parade or a fool of himself during the 
>door prizes, seems like that should be fair game, because those are intended 
>to be public shows. Hijinks at a grotto party are another matter. I think 
>that's were the concern arose originally.
>-- Mixon
>
>A chicken is the egg's way of making another egg.
>
>You may "reply" to the address this message
>came from, but for long-term use, save:
>Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
>AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
>
>
>-
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[Texascavers] an LED headlamp bargain

2010-10-08 Thread David 
Below is a link to a headlamp I reviewed when it first hit the market about
2 years ago.

 http://www.dorcydirect.com/p-195-41-2091-45-lumens-led-headlight.aspx

I found this headlamp on sale today at HEB for only $ 6.49 plus tax.

So I decided to review it again in light of that price.



There is not a single LED headlamp for under $ 7 that can touch this
headlamp.It is suitable for crawling caves where you are only
going to be in the
cave for 8 hours or so.

It is bright enough to use in a walking passage, and the light pattern
is tolerable.

The red emergency light is barely bright enough to see your hands in order to
tie a knot or maybe read a map. The red light is probably bright
enough to help
you get out of Airman's if your batteries are running low. I am
guessing the red light
will burn for hours after the batteries are too weak to power the
primary LED, and if
you had extra batteries and were really trapped in the cave, the red
would probably last
4 or 5 days.

The lamp appears water-resistant. The lens cap is aluminum and will probably
out last the rest of the light. The switch does not have a cheezy feel.

I would highly recommend purchasing this lamp based on the price.

I can't remember what I said about it in the previous review, but I am
pretty sure
it cost $ 25 plus tax back then, so it was not as good as other lamps
on the market
in that price range.

This headlamp would make a fine back-up headlamp for regular caving trips.

I have had lights like this before, and the only thing to ever fail
was the cheap plastic
threads on the battery housing cap, and next the plastic hinge holding
the lamp to the
support plate on the straps.Both can be gerry-rigged with
duct-tape in an emergency.
Meaning this $ 7 headlamp, could last numerous caving trips as your
primary light source.

I don't know of a headlamp under $ 15 than is as good as this one.

[ Disclaimer: the $ 6.49 price may not be at every HEB. ]

David Locklear
NSS # 27639

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Re: [Texascavers] new TCR photography policy

2010-10-08 Thread Travis Scott 
Where is the like button?

Sent with my thumbs.

On Oct 8, 2010, at 11:10 PM, Gill Edigar  wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 9:01 AM, Butch Fralia  
> wrote:
>> Is this an official policy or?
> 
> The deal is that just because someone tacitly agrees to have their
> picture taken in (or out of) costume during TCR does not and should
> not be construed as any sort of permission to 3rd parties to post
> photos of them to open source internet sites. Keep them in your
> private collections, if you like, share them at private parties (i.e.:
> after Grotto meeting parties, etc) amongst friends, but don't put them
> out for public consumption--by any means. TCR is a private party of
> cavers and what happens there should pretty much be kept there.
> 
> To the best of my memory there has never been an "official policy" on
> anything at TCR. There are guidelines that comply with the free spirit
> of TCR and people are expected to use good judgement and common sense
> in the interpreting of those guidelines. That means that people are
> given the freedom and responsibility to police their own actions to a
> modicum of social (within the caving community) acceptability. If you
> wouldn't want your revealing photos posted on the internet (even if
> there actually are none) assume that no one else wants their's posted
> either. Then, "don't post anybody else's" would be the guideline on
> this one.
> 
> Diana's suggestion is the 'safety fuse' on this matter. To be
> absolutely safe, don't appear in public in a way you wouldn't want to
> be seen. While that is the logical ultimate solution, it does not
> allow for the concept that TCR is provided as a safe place to turn
> kids, dogs, and yourself loose for the weekend and enjoy some freedoms
> that must be kept penned up during one's daily visits to the real
> world. By respecting other peoples' personal privacy, though shared
> with you at TCR, to not have photos of them posted on the internet,
> can we be sure that TCR will remain a safe place to turn dogs and kids
> and yourself loose for the weekend.
> 
> Please understand that this is my personal observation and opinion on
> the  matter.
> --Ediger
> 
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
> 

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texascavers Digest 9 Oct 2010 04:13:16 -0000 Issue 1165

2010-10-08 Thread texascavers-digest-help 

texascavers Digest 9 Oct 2010 04:13:16 - Issue 1165

Topics (messages 16252 through 16262):

Re: new TCR photography policy - community needs to enforce
16252 by: Thomas Sitch
16259 by: Linda Palit
16260 by: TJ Tidwell

photos at TCR
16253 by: Mixon Bill
16257 by: John Brooks
16262 by: Gill Edigar

Eric Establie diving incident, Ardèche, France
16254 by: caverarch.aol.com

TSA and NSS members?
16255 by: Logan McNatt
16256 by: Logan McNatt
16258 by: John Brooks

Re: new TCR photography policy
16261 by: Gill Edigar

Administrivia:

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--
--- Begin Message ---
We've consistently had people crowding in with cameras during the ramen noodle 
wrestling (later mud wrestling).  I've taken the occassional picture, although 
mine never go online.  Nontheless, I'm happy to trade asking people permission 
to photograph them for everybody feeling more comfortable about how they want 
to express themselves.
 
I think that we, as a community, need to decide to enforce this policy.  If 
everyone keeps a weather eye out, and politely asks camera barers to put the 
cell phones or cameras away (and potentially flags folks who refuse to comply), 
we'll actually have a better experience.
 
~~Thomas

--- On Fri, 10/8/10, Diana Tomchick  wrote:


From: Diana Tomchick 
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] new TCR photography policy
To: "Cave Tex" 
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Friday, October 8, 2010, 3:11 PM


You know, I hate to have to say it, but if you're concerned about the people at 
work or in your family or wherever seeing you naked in a photo (or doing 
whatever crazy thing), then don't do it during the daylight hours at TCR. That 
way no one can take an embarrassing photo of you.

When 350+ people attend an event, there's no way you can really consider that 
to be a "private gathering"--and it has always been this way, even before the 
advent of social networking sites and the Internet.

Diana

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Diana R. Tomchick
Associate Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)



On Oct 8, 2010, at 11:09 AM, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:

>
> Agreed, Butch, and the same with The TEXAS CAVER.
>
> I always try to make sure that whatever I print, I would be comfortable with 
> if it was one of my family members or on the cover of the local newspaper 
> (remember those?).
>
> If it would embarrass someone or is cave/landowner sensitive, i.e., gives 
> directions to a certain cave, it doesn't go in.
>
> Luckily, neither has been a problem.
>
> BUT, in the age of Facebook and every yahoo in existence having a cellphone 
> with a camera, how you will ever be able control this is beyond me.
>
> The genie is out of the bottle and it, along with personal privacy, has gone 
> the way of the chariot and carbide.
>
> (See the Rutgers incident).
>
>
> Rest assured that Butch and I will be the epitome of privacy and good taste, 
> relatively speaking in a caver sense.
>
>
> All the other avenues, good luck with all that!
>
>
> Mark
>
>
> P.S. - I'm surprised this hasn't been discussed sooner, this week or in prior 
> years.
>
>
>
> From: Butch Fralia [mailto:bfra...@maverickgrotto.org]
> Sent: Fri 10/8/2010 9:01 AM
> To: 'Saj Zappitello'; Texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] new TCR photography policy
>
> Is this an official policy or?
>
> Wouldn’t it be easier to just say don’t take photos of naked people?
>
> TCR is a difficult place to get photo permission for everyone in the photo, 
> there could be hundreds.   If we have to ask permission from everyone in the 
> photo there wont be a TCR photo spread ever again.  We always try to keep the 
> website decent and not embarrass anyone.  If they are embarrassed, they can 
> request a photo be removed.
>
> Butch
>
> From: Saj Zappitello [mailto:sajar...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 10:51 AM
> To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: [Texascavers] new TCR photography policy
>
> In the new generation of social networking sites (like facebook) and a global 
> digital footprint, some of us have been brainstorming new ways to keep TCR a 
> fun and free-spirited retreat from our usual social inhibitions. Our solution 
> is to request that everyone participate in a new photography policy that has 
> worked well at other free-spirited gatherings.
>
> Please DO NOT take photographs of anyone without their permission, and 
> certainly do not post photographs of anyone online without permission.
>
> The way this works is simple--just a

Re: [Texascavers] photos at TCR

2010-10-08 Thread Gill Edigar 
On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 4:15 PM, Mixon Bill  wrote:
> It's not just daylight hours. There is plenty of light around the hot-tub
> fire for night photos, even without flash. It seems to me that one should
> never post a candid photo of somebody else on the Web without permission,
> unless he's merely a not-particularly-conspicuous member of a crowd. It also
> seems in poor taste to take pictures around the hot-tub at all, except maybe
> during assembly/disassembly, but then I'm an old curmudgeon. If someone
> makes an exhibition of himself during the TCR parade or a fool of himself
> during the door prizes, seems like that should be fair game, because those
> are intended to be public shows. Hijinks at a grotto party are another
> matter. I think that's were the concern arose originally.
> -- Mixon
> 
> A chicken is the egg's way of making another egg.
> 
> You may "reply" to the address this message
> came from, but for long-term use, save:
> Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
> AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
>
>
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
>

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Re: [Texascavers] new TCR photography policy

2010-10-08 Thread Gill Edigar 
On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 9:01 AM, Butch Fralia  wrote:
> Is this an official policy or?

The deal is that just because someone tacitly agrees to have their
picture taken in (or out of) costume during TCR does not and should
not be construed as any sort of permission to 3rd parties to post
photos of them to open source internet sites. Keep them in your
private collections, if you like, share them at private parties (i.e.:
after Grotto meeting parties, etc) amongst friends, but don't put them
out for public consumption--by any means. TCR is a private party of
cavers and what happens there should pretty much be kept there.

To the best of my memory there has never been an "official policy" on
anything at TCR. There are guidelines that comply with the free spirit
of TCR and people are expected to use good judgement and common sense
in the interpreting of those guidelines. That means that people are
given the freedom and responsibility to police their own actions to a
modicum of social (within the caving community) acceptability. If you
wouldn't want your revealing photos posted on the internet (even if
there actually are none) assume that no one else wants their's posted
either. Then, "don't post anybody else's" would be the guideline on
this one.

Diana's suggestion is the 'safety fuse' on this matter. To be
absolutely safe, don't appear in public in a way you wouldn't want to
be seen. While that is the logical ultimate solution, it does not
allow for the concept that TCR is provided as a safe place to turn
kids, dogs, and yourself loose for the weekend and enjoy some freedoms
that must be kept penned up during one's daily visits to the real
world. By respecting other peoples' personal privacy, though shared
with you at TCR, to not have photos of them posted on the internet,
can we be sure that TCR will remain a safe place to turn dogs and kids
and yourself loose for the weekend.

Please understand that this is my personal observation and opinion on
the  matter.
--Ediger

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Re: [Texascavers] new TCR photography policy - community needs to enforce

2010-10-08 Thread TJ Tidwell 
All of us have political futures to think about. We can all exercise our better 
judgment about posting pictures to the Internet. Let's come to an agreement.

TJ
A.S.S. 09'

Sent from TJ's iPhone


On Oct 8, 2010, at 4:30 PM, "Linda Palit"  wrote:

> I remember a guy with a video camera at the hot tub who was finally asked to 
> leave because he kept taking pictures. It was a long time ago, and I felt 
> slightly offended, but had no fears that the video would show up some place 
> to embarrass me in my workplace.
> 
> That was the community Thomas is talking about asking the guy to leave when 
> he would not respect requests to stop.
> 
> We have a lot of cavers from a lot of fields of work with differing standards 
> and differing  ideas of “reasonable” behavior.  With publicizing photos being 
> so easy now, I think it is a good time to bring this to wider awareness and 
> decide this is a reasonable policy.  Cavers do form a community, and we need 
> to protect the interests of those who would feel (and be) vulnerable without 
> this protection. 
> 
>  
> 
> Linda
> 
>  
> 
> From: Thomas Sitch [mailto:dreadfl...@yahoo.com] 
> Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 4:01 PM
> To: Cave Tex
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] new TCR photography policy - community needs to 
> enforce
> 
>  
> 
> We've consistently had people crowding in with cameras during the ramen 
> noodle wrestling (later mud wrestling).  I've taken the occassional picture, 
> although mine never go online.  Nontheless, I'm happy to trade asking people 
> permission to photograph them for everybody feeling more comfortable about 
> how they want to express themselves.
> 
>  
> 
> I think that we, as a community, need to decide to enforce this policy.  If 
> everyone keeps a weather eye out, and politely asks camera barers to put the 
> cell phones or cameras away (and potentially flags folks who refuse to 
> comply), we'll actually have a better experience.
> 
>  
> 
> ~~Thomas
> 
> --- On Fri, 10/8/10, Diana Tomchick  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: Diana Tomchick 
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] new TCR photography policy
> To: "Cave Tex" 
> Date: Friday, October 8, 2010, 3:11 PM
> 
> You know, I hate to have to say it, but if you're concerned about the people 
> at work or in your family or wherever seeing you naked in a photo (or doing 
> whatever crazy thing), then don't do it during the daylight hours at TCR. 
> That way no one can take an embarrassing photo of you.
> 
> When 350+ people attend an event, there's no way you can really consider that 
> to be a "private gathering"--and it has always been this way, even before the 
> advent of social networking sites and the Internet.
> 
> Diana
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> Diana R. Tomchick
> Associate Professor
> University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
> Department of Biochemistry
> 5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
> Rm. ND10.214B
> Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
> Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
> 214-645-6383 (phone)
> 214-645-6353 (fax)
> 
> 
> 
> On Oct 8, 2010, at 11:09 AM, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:
> 
> >
> > Agreed, Butch, and the same with The TEXAS CAVER.
> >
> > I always try to make sure that whatever I print, I would be comfortable 
> > with if it was one of my family members or on the cover of the local 
> > newspaper (remember those?).
> >
> > If it would embarrass someone or is cave/landowner sensitive, i.e., gives 
> > directions to a certain cave, it doesn't go in.
> >
> > Luckily, neither has been a problem.
> >
> > BUT, in the age of Facebook and every yahoo in existence having a cellphone 
> > with a camera, how you will ever be able control this is beyond me.
> >
> > The genie is out of the bottle and it, along with personal privacy, has 
> > gone the way of the chariot and carbide.
> >
> > (See the Rutgers incident).
> >
> >
> > Rest assured that Butch and I will be the epitome of privacy and good 
> > taste, relatively speaking in a caver sense.
> >
> >
> > All the other avenues, good luck with all that!
> >
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> > P.S. - I'm surprised this hasn't been discussed sooner, this week or in 
> > prior years.
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Butch Fralia [mailto:bfra...@maverickgrotto.org]
> > Sent: Fri 10/8/2010 9:01 AM
> > To: 'Saj Zappitello'; Texascavers@texascavers.com
> > Subject: RE: [Texascavers] new TCR photography policy
> >
> > Is this an official policy or?
> >
> > Wouldn’t it be easier to just say don’t take photos of naked people?
> >
> > TCR is a difficult place to get photo permission for everyone in the photo, 
> > there could be hundreds.   If we have to ask permission from everyone in 
> > the photo there wont be a TCR photo spread ever again.  We always try to 
> > keep the website decent and not embarrass anyone.  If they are embarrassed, 
> > they can request a photo be removed.
> >
> > Butch
> >
> > From: Saj Zappitello [mailto:sajar...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 10:51 AM
> > To: Texascavers@texascav

RE: [Texascavers] new TCR photography policy - community needs to enforce

2010-10-08 Thread Linda Palit 
I remember a guy with a video camera at the hot tub who was finally asked to 
leave because he kept taking pictures. It was a long time ago, and I felt 
slightly offended, but had no fears that the video would show up some place to 
embarrass me in my workplace.

That was the community Thomas is talking about asking the guy to leave when he 
would not respect requests to stop.

We have a lot of cavers from a lot of fields of work with differing standards 
and differing  ideas of “reasonable” behavior.  With publicizing photos being 
so easy now, I think it is a good time to bring this to wider awareness and 
decide this is a reasonable policy.  Cavers do form a community, and we need to 
protect the interests of those who would feel (and be) vulnerable without this 
protection.  

 

Linda

 

From: Thomas Sitch [mailto:dreadfl...@yahoo.com] 
Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 4:01 PM
To: Cave Tex
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] new TCR photography policy - community needs to 
enforce

 


We've consistently had people crowding in with cameras during the ramen noodle 
wrestling (later mud wrestling).  I've taken the occassional picture, although 
mine never go online.  Nontheless, I'm happy to trade asking people permission 
to photograph them for everybody feeling more comfortable about how they want 
to express themselves.

 

I think that we, as a community, need to decide to enforce this policy.  If 
everyone keeps a weather eye out, and politely asks camera barers to put the 
cell phones or cameras away (and potentially flags folks who refuse to comply), 
we'll actually have a better experience.

 

~~Thomas

--- On Fri, 10/8/10, Diana Tomchick  wrote:


From: Diana Tomchick 
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] new TCR photography policy
To: "Cave Tex" 
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Friday, October 8, 2010, 3:11 PM

You know, I hate to have to say it, but if you're concerned about the people at 
work or in your family or wherever seeing you naked in a photo (or doing 
whatever crazy thing), then don't do it during the daylight hours at TCR. That 
way no one can take an embarrassing photo of you.

When 350+ people attend an event, there's no way you can really consider that 
to be a "private gathering"--and it has always been this way, even before the 
advent of social networking sites and the Internet.

Diana

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Diana R. Tomchick
Associate Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu 

 
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)



On Oct 8, 2010, at 11:09 AM, mark.al...@l-3com.com 
  wrote:

>
> Agreed, Butch, and the same with The TEXAS CAVER.
>
> I always try to make sure that whatever I print, I would be comfortable with 
> if it was one of my family members or on the cover of the local newspaper 
> (remember those?).
>
> If it would embarrass someone or is cave/landowner sensitive, i.e., gives 
> directions to a certain cave, it doesn't go in.
>
> Luckily, neither has been a problem.
>
> BUT, in the age of Facebook and every yahoo in existence having a cellphone 
> with a camera, how you will ever be able control this is beyond me.
>
> The genie is out of the bottle and it, along with personal privacy, has gone 
> the way of the chariot and carbide.
>
> (See the Rutgers incident).
>
>
> Rest assured that Butch and I will be the epitome of privacy and good taste, 
> relatively speaking in a caver sense.
>
>
> All the other avenues, good luck with all that!
>
>
> Mark
>
>
> P.S. - I'm surprised this hasn't been discussed sooner, this week or in prior 
> years.
>
>
>
> From: Butch Fralia [mailto:bfra...@maverickgrotto.org 
>  ]
> Sent: Fri 10/8/2010 9:01 AM
> To: 'Saj Zappitello'; Texascavers@texascavers.com 
>  
> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] new TCR photography policy
>
> Is this an official policy or?
>
> Wouldn’t it be easier to just say don’t take photos of naked people?
>
> TCR is a difficult place to get photo permission for everyone in the photo, 
> there could be hundreds.   If we have to ask permission from everyone in the 
> photo there wont be a TCR photo spread ever again.  We always try to keep the 
> website decent and not embarrass anyone.  If they are embarrassed, they can 
> request a photo be removed.
>
> Butch
>
> From: Saj Zappitello [mailto:sajar...@gmail.com 
>  ]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 10:51 AM
> To: Texascavers@texascavers.com 
>  
> Subject: [T

Re: [Texascavers] TSA and NSS members?

2010-10-08 Thread John Brooks 
3.

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 8, 2010, at 6:52 PM, Logan McNatt  wrote:

Don Arburn just answered my question, sort of:   "I am."

O.K.  Thanks Don.  That makes 1.

I am, too, so that doubles it to 2.

Perhaps someone with access to the TSA list could speed this up just a little 
bit?




































































































































































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Re: [Texascavers] photos at TCR

2010-10-08 Thread John Brooks 


Soif photos are concern...why not just make some "NO PHOTO ZONE" signs for 
the hot tub and aggie activity zone.

We have way too many "police" as it is

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 8, 2010, at 4:15 PM, Mixon Bill  wrote:

It's not just daylight hours. There is plenty of light around the hot-tub fire 
for night photos, even without flash. It seems to me that one should never post 
a candid photo of somebody else on the Web without permission, unless he's 
merely a not-particularly-conspicuous member of a crowd. It also seems in poor 
taste to take pictures around the hot-tub at all, except maybe during 
assembly/disassembly, but then I'm an old curmudgeon. If someone makes an 
exhibition of himself during the TCR parade or a fool of himself during the 
door prizes, seems like that should be fair game, because those are intended to 
be public shows. Hijinks at a grotto party are another matter. I think that's 
were the concern arose originally.
-- Mixon

A chicken is the egg's way of making another egg.

You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org


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[Texascavers] TSA and NSS members?

2010-10-08 Thread Logan McNatt 

 Don Arburn just answered my question, sort of:   "I am."

O.K.  Thanks Don.  That makes 1.

I am, too, so that doubles it to 2.

Perhaps someone with access to the TSA list could speed this up just a little 
bit?




































































































































































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[Texascavers] TSA and NSS members?

2010-10-08 Thread Logan McNatt 
 On 10/8/2010 8:52 AM, Ron Ralph wrote:
Remember that all candidates must be NSS members, so inquire if you have a 
write-in vote. And please write or give me a call if you have
questions. If you know a member not subscribed to “texascavers,” please pass on 
this message for me.


How many TSA members also belong to the NSS?

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[Texascavers] Eric Establie diving incident, Ardèche, France

2010-10-08 Thread caverarch 

Here is a Google translation of a recent a 15-hour-old news article about the 
missing cave diver in France.  I have tried to clarify it using rusty college 
college French, but the original article follows for more competent 
Francophones.



Caver lost in Ardeche: further search planned, but no diving
(AFP) - 
LABASTIDE-de-Virac (Ardèche) - The search for caver missing since Sunday in the 
gorges of Ardeche continued Friday with the clearing of a natural chimney, but 
no diving reconnaissance was planned during the day, "said prefecture.
"Our only progress possible today was on the surface of plateau over the gorge 
by clearing this chimney. For the part underwater research, there will be 
nothing," he told AFP Jean Rampon, sub-prefect in Largentière in evoking 
"24-hour break" between two reconnaissance dives.
Since Thursday morning, the cavers took turns tirelessly to clear the rocks 
blocking the natural sink on the plateau, keeping the hope of finding him alive 
Thursday after the detection of a breath of air circulation.
"The good news is that we came across a gallery clean, which could mean that we 
are at the end of the plug (...). The drafts were significantly enhanced. We're 
going into the void" , Eric Zipper, the head of Cave Rescuesaid at a press 
briefing.
Once the shaft? passage? is opened, rescuers plan to commit a cave exploration.
They hope to reach Eric Establie, caver aged 45 from Cannes, who might have 
taken refuge 200 feet below, in an air pocket in this gallery in the otherwise 
flooded Labastide-de-Virac cave.
In the underwater passage where the explorer [Esrablie] has disappeared in a 
landslide [?  breakdown? éboulis] 780 meters from the entrance to the pit, the 
rescuers are considering making a tag [? balise de détection] that would allow 
detection of a "better topography" of the location for any drilling for 
installation of suction pumps.
"This would then enable us to hire divers and go to the end of the gallery," 
continued Eric Zipper, while stressing that "feasibility studies" were under 
way on these actions.
On the night of Sunday to Monday, rescuers had recovered the propeller [or the 
scooter itself?] of the explorer before the landslide [? breakdown?], the nose 
pointed at them, as if to say he had gone to hide later in an air pocket.




Spéléologue disparu en Ardèche: poursuite des recherches mais pas de plongée
(AFP) – Il y a 15 heures
LABASTIDE-DE-VIRAC (Ardèche) — Les recherches du spéléologue disparu depuis 
dimanche dans les Gorges de l'Ardèche se poursuivaient vendredi avec le 
dégagement d'une cheminée naturelle, mais aucune plongée de reconnaissance 
n'était prévue en journée, a indiqué la préfecture.
"On ne peut progresser aujourd'hui que par le plateau dominant les gorges en 
dégageant cette cheminée. Pour la partie recherche subaquatique, il n'y aura 
rien", a déclaré à l'AFP Jean Rampon, sous-préfet à Largentière, en évoquant 
"24 heures de pause" entre deux plongées de reconnaissance.
Depuis jeudi matin, les spéléologues se sont relayés sans relâche pour dégager 
les roches obstruant la cheminée naturelle partant du plateau, gardant l'espoir 
de le retrouver vivant après la détection jeudi d'un souffle d'air.
"La bonne nouvelle, c'est que nous sommes tombés sur une galerie  propre , ce 
qui pourrait signifier que nous sommes au bout du bouchon (...). Les courants 
d'air se sont nettement accentués. On va vers le vide", a déclaré lors d'un 
point presse Eric Zipper, le chef des Spéléo Secours.
Une fois le puits débouché, les sauveteurs comptent engager une exploration 
spéléo.
Ils espèrent ainsi atteindre Eric Establie, spéléologue cannois de 45 ans, qui 
pourrait s'être réfugié 200 mètres plus bas, dans une poche d'air de cette 
galerie immergée de Labastide-de-Virac.
Dans le boyau sous-marin où l'expert a disparu, au niveau d'un éboulis à 780 m 
de l'entrée du gouffre, les secouristes envisagent de déposer une balise de 
détection qui permettrait une "meilleure topographie" de l'endroit et à terme 
d'eventuelles opérations de forage pour l'installation de pompes d'aspiration.
"Ceci nous permettrait ensuite d'engager des plongeurs et d'aller jusqu'au bout 
de la galerie", a poursuivi Eric Zipper, tout en soulignant que des "études de 
faisabilité" étaient en cours sur ces opérations.
Dans la nuit de dimanche à lundi, les sauveteurs avaient retrouvé le propulseur 
de l'expert devant l'éboulis, le nez pointé vers eux, comme pour dire qu'il 
était parti se réfugier plus loin, dans une poche d'air.

[Texascavers] photos at TCR

2010-10-08 Thread Mixon Bill 
It's not just daylight hours. There is plenty of light around the hot- 
tub fire for night photos, even without flash. It seems to me that one  
should never post a candid photo of somebody else on the Web without  
permission, unless he's merely a not-particularly-conspicuous member  
of a crowd. It also seems in poor taste to take pictures around the  
hot-tub at all, except maybe during assembly/disassembly, but then I'm  
an old curmudgeon. If someone makes an exhibition of himself during  
the TCR parade or a fool of himself during the door prizes, seems like  
that should be fair game, because those are intended to be public  
shows. Hijinks at a grotto party are another matter. I think that's  
were the concern arose originally.

-- Mixon

A chicken is the egg's way of making another egg.

You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org


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Re: [Texascavers] new TCR photography policy - community needs to enforce

2010-10-08 Thread Thomas Sitch 
We've consistently had people crowding in with cameras during the ramen noodle 
wrestling (later mud wrestling).  I've taken the occassional picture, although 
mine never go online.  Nontheless, I'm happy to trade asking people permission 
to photograph them for everybody feeling more comfortable about how they want 
to express themselves.
 
I think that we, as a community, need to decide to enforce this policy.  If 
everyone keeps a weather eye out, and politely asks camera barers to put the 
cell phones or cameras away (and potentially flags folks who refuse to comply), 
we'll actually have a better experience.
 
~~Thomas

--- On Fri, 10/8/10, Diana Tomchick  wrote:


From: Diana Tomchick 
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] new TCR photography policy
To: "Cave Tex" 
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Friday, October 8, 2010, 3:11 PM


You know, I hate to have to say it, but if you're concerned about the people at 
work or in your family or wherever seeing you naked in a photo (or doing 
whatever crazy thing), then don't do it during the daylight hours at TCR. That 
way no one can take an embarrassing photo of you.

When 350+ people attend an event, there's no way you can really consider that 
to be a "private gathering"--and it has always been this way, even before the 
advent of social networking sites and the Internet.

Diana

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Diana R. Tomchick
Associate Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)



On Oct 8, 2010, at 11:09 AM, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:

>
> Agreed, Butch, and the same with The TEXAS CAVER.
>
> I always try to make sure that whatever I print, I would be comfortable with 
> if it was one of my family members or on the cover of the local newspaper 
> (remember those?).
>
> If it would embarrass someone or is cave/landowner sensitive, i.e., gives 
> directions to a certain cave, it doesn't go in.
>
> Luckily, neither has been a problem.
>
> BUT, in the age of Facebook and every yahoo in existence having a cellphone 
> with a camera, how you will ever be able control this is beyond me.
>
> The genie is out of the bottle and it, along with personal privacy, has gone 
> the way of the chariot and carbide.
>
> (See the Rutgers incident).
>
>
> Rest assured that Butch and I will be the epitome of privacy and good taste, 
> relatively speaking in a caver sense.
>
>
> All the other avenues, good luck with all that!
>
>
> Mark
>
>
> P.S. - I'm surprised this hasn't been discussed sooner, this week or in prior 
> years.
>
>
>
> From: Butch Fralia [mailto:bfra...@maverickgrotto.org]
> Sent: Fri 10/8/2010 9:01 AM
> To: 'Saj Zappitello'; Texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] new TCR photography policy
>
> Is this an official policy or?
>
> Wouldn’t it be easier to just say don’t take photos of naked people?
>
> TCR is a difficult place to get photo permission for everyone in the photo, 
> there could be hundreds.   If we have to ask permission from everyone in the 
> photo there wont be a TCR photo spread ever again.  We always try to keep the 
> website decent and not embarrass anyone.  If they are embarrassed, they can 
> request a photo be removed.
>
> Butch
>
> From: Saj Zappitello [mailto:sajar...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 10:51 AM
> To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: [Texascavers] new TCR photography policy
>
> In the new generation of social networking sites (like facebook) and a global 
> digital footprint, some of us have been brainstorming new ways to keep TCR a 
> fun and free-spirited retreat from our usual social inhibitions. Our solution 
> is to request that everyone participate in a new photography policy that has 
> worked well at other free-spirited gatherings.
>
> Please DO NOT take photographs of anyone without their permission, and 
> certainly do not post photographs of anyone online without permission.
>
> The way this works is simple--just ask people before you take their 
> photograph, and ask them again if you want to post photos online.
>
> We will post a reminder of this new policy at registration. Let's keep this 
> event fun and wild!
>
> Feel free to respond to me OFF LIST if you have comments about this.
>
> Thanks and happy caving!
> ~Saj




UT Southwestern Medical Center
The future of medicine, today.

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texascavers Digest 8 Oct 2010 20:09:20 -0000 Issue 1164

2010-10-08 Thread texascavers-digest-help 

texascavers Digest 8 Oct 2010 20:09:20 - Issue 1164

Topics (messages 16241 through 16251):

Re: caving on Star Trek
16241 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net
16242 by: Mark.Alman.L-3com.com

Second call for ballots
16243 by: Ron Ralph

Re: new TCR photography policy
16244 by: Butch Fralia
16245 by: Don Arburn
16246 by: J. LaRue Thomas
16247 by: Mark.Alman.L-3com.com
16251 by: Diana Tomchick

Request from Xilitla for Bill Stone
16248 by: caverarch.aol.com
16250 by: Fofo

WNS in Defenders [of Wildlife] Magazine:
16249 by: caverarch.aol.com

Administrivia:

To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:


To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail:


To post to the list, e-mail:



--
--- Begin Message ---

What about when The Brady Bunch went caving? Oct 8, 2010 02:02:49 AM, dlocklea...@gmail.com wrote:
This post isn't about real caving, but Hollywood-style caving.Some of you may remember a Star Trek series called "Enterprise."In the episode below, there is a lengthy caving scene.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfBH_zEuTYA&feature=relatedListen at 2:45 as Dr. Phlox describes the cavern system and has an interestingpronouciation of the word "speleothems." ( Is it pronounced likethat somewhere ? )At 3:20, Capt. Archer ask Ensign Mayweather about his "caving experience."At 4:09, they do an inventory of their caving packs.Note at 6:17 how they approach the cave entrance high in the mountain.Check out all the rock-climbing gear and no caving helmets, just abright spot-lightover-the-shoulder mounted on some kind of cantilever bar,that swivels in several directions, and is mounted to a rigid frame back-pack.( Do you go in any caves were that light system would even work ? )I think they are even wearing rock-climbing shoes.This was most likely an alpine cave based on the scenery in the backgroundaround the entrance. So they are totally unprepared for that.Commander Tucker chats about his experience in a tourist cave, as theypass the twilight zone.Check out that easy walk in, as they find a nice pit!See how they rig the rope to the crack in the rock with just a single mechanicalchock. All 3 of them have their own ropes for this deep drop and they rappelside by side.Each rope they had was probably your typical length sold at REI, but note thepit is at least 100 meters deep ( more like 250 ).Watch thru 1:45 of part 2 as they continue descending the pit ( ontiny Figure 8's )http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hgFydWpJkw&feature=relatedSkip scenes 1:45 thru 5:04 of part 2.The 3 cavers reach the bottom of the pit at 5:04 in part 2.Notice at 6:16 how easy the mechanical chocks fit into the cracks in thecave's wall.Check out that awesome accident at 6:17. ( I bet the stunt men doing thescene were he gets racked on the big rock didn't enjoy that. )Whoa! Amazing belay arrest at 6:47!! The 3 of them fell down thatsteep slope for30 seconds before 2 of them going free-fall for another 7 seconds!Note the geology of the walls in the pit look like they were rappeling atDevil's Post Pile Monumenthttp://www.flickr.com/photos/36092537@N04/4734576972/sizes/m/in/photostream/Then after an impossible save by the middle victim, the director doesn'tshow how the 2 cavers got back up to the ledge where the belayer was.They would have been severaly hundred feet below the belayer.The trip leader is deep underground on a ledge in a deep pit, with a brokenleg and torn ligaments and the 2 novice cavers continue on without himexploring the deep pit.The caving picks up again at 3:23 in part 3.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNy7b9EGqiI&feature=relatedThey push a long crawlway with Spanish Moss decorating the ceiling.( I presume that is supposed to represent fragile gypsum flowers )Look at how they push the rigid-frame back-packs in front of them thruthe crawlways.They finally reach the 3 cave scientist studying the speleothems.These speleologistare hard-care and plan to stay down there 3 weeks even if they are executedupon leaving. And Lt. Reed, still has a long coil of shiny ropeover his shoulderafter just having done a long crawlway.Note how Commander Tucker is upset that he had to crawl thru "lava tubes" for 2days to reach the scientist.skip 6:45 to 9:29 of part 3At 9:29 there is a scene showing them scrambling up a steep slope.Part 3 ends, and Part 4 begins.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpxWecZdVzY&feature=relatedIt starts out with them heading up towards the injured trip leader. Theyfinally clip on some Petzl handled ascenders. It looked like the 2 humanswere frogging up the rope. But the 3 speleologist climb smooth cave wallsfaster than Dan Osman climbs granite ( R.I.P. )They actually do a vertical rescue on the deep pit. Note they have all theequipment in place for a z-rig or some type of pulley-assisted system.The EndI guess it would be nice to have the all the caving scenes in one back-to

Re: [Texascavers] new TCR photography policy

2010-10-08 Thread Diana Tomchick 
You know, I hate to have to say it, but if you're concerned about the people at 
work or in your family or wherever seeing you naked in a photo (or doing 
whatever crazy thing), then don't do it during the daylight hours at TCR. That 
way no one can take an embarrassing photo of you.

When 350+ people attend an event, there's no way you can really consider that 
to be a "private gathering"--and it has always been this way, even before the 
advent of social networking sites and the Internet.

Diana

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Diana R. Tomchick
Associate Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)



On Oct 8, 2010, at 11:09 AM, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:

>
> Agreed, Butch, and the same with The TEXAS CAVER.
>
> I always try to make sure that whatever I print, I would be comfortable with 
> if it was one of my family members or on the cover of the local newspaper 
> (remember those?).
>
> If it would embarrass someone or is cave/landowner sensitive, i.e., gives 
> directions to a certain cave, it doesn't go in.
>
> Luckily, neither has been a problem.
>
> BUT, in the age of Facebook and every yahoo in existence having a cellphone 
> with a camera, how you will ever be able control this is beyond me.
>
> The genie is out of the bottle and it, along with personal privacy, has gone 
> the way of the chariot and carbide.
>
> (See the Rutgers incident).
>
>
> Rest assured that Butch and I will be the epitome of privacy and good taste, 
> relatively speaking in a caver sense.
>
>
> All the other avenues, good luck with all that!
>
>
> Mark
>
>
> P.S. - I'm surprised this hasn't been discussed sooner, this week or in prior 
> years.
>
>
>
> From: Butch Fralia [mailto:bfra...@maverickgrotto.org]
> Sent: Fri 10/8/2010 9:01 AM
> To: 'Saj Zappitello'; Texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] new TCR photography policy
>
> Is this an official policy or?
>
> Wouldn’t it be easier to just say don’t take photos of naked people?
>
> TCR is a difficult place to get photo permission for everyone in the photo, 
> there could be hundreds.   If we have to ask permission from everyone in the 
> photo there wont be a TCR photo spread ever again.  We always try to keep the 
> website decent and not embarrass anyone.  If they are embarrassed, they can 
> request a photo be removed.
>
> Butch
>
> From: Saj Zappitello [mailto:sajar...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 10:51 AM
> To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: [Texascavers] new TCR photography policy
>
> In the new generation of social networking sites (like facebook) and a global 
> digital footprint, some of us have been brainstorming new ways to keep TCR a 
> fun and free-spirited retreat from our usual social inhibitions. Our solution 
> is to request that everyone participate in a new photography policy that has 
> worked well at other free-spirited gatherings.
>
> Please DO NOT take photographs of anyone without their permission, and 
> certainly do not post photographs of anyone online without permission.
>
> The way this works is simple--just ask people before you take their 
> photograph, and ask them again if you want to post photos online.
>
> We will post a reminder of this new policy at registration. Let's keep this 
> event fun and wild!
>
> Feel free to respond to me OFF LIST if you have comments about this.
>
> Thanks and happy caving!
> ~Saj




UT Southwestern Medical Center
The future of medicine, today.

-
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
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Re: [Texascavers] Request from Xilitla for Bill Stone

2010-10-08 Thread Fofo 

�Hola!

OK, I resent this (probably at about the same time as many others) to 
Bill and Vickie.


Take care,

 - Fofo

cavera...@aol.com wrote, on 8/10/10 12:35 :

Transcription of a request from Boni Reynoso, Xilitla, Mexico, on Facebook:

Boni:
i'm bonifacio from xilitla in mexico, only for ask you about bill stone
i havent the contact and i want aks him of the caving expedition on "la
trinidad" cave results

self:
Hi Bonifacio. I don't have contact information for Mr. Stone, but I will
post your request on the list for Texas cavers. Does he have your e-mail
address?

Boni:
ok thanks, probably dont have my e-mail, bonif...@hotmail.com



-
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[Texascavers] WNS in Defenders [of Wildlife] Magazine:

2010-10-08 Thread caverarch 
Article on WNS in Defenders [of Wildlife] Magazine:

http://www.defenders.org/newsroom/defenders_magazine/fall_2010/flying_in_the_dark.php

=

[Texascavers] Request from Xilitla for Bill Stone

2010-10-08 Thread caverarch 

Transcription of a request from Boni Reynoso, Xilitla, Mexico, on Facebook:


Boni: 
i'm bonifacio from xilitla in mexico, only for ask you about bill stone i 
havent the contact and i want aks him of the caving expedition on "la trinidad" 
cave results


self:
Hi Bonifacio. I don't have contact information for Mr. Stone, but I will post 
your request on the list for Texas cavers. Does he have your e-mail address?


Boni: 
ok thanks, probably dont have my e-mail, bonif...@hotmail.com

RE: [Texascavers] new TCR photography policy

2010-10-08 Thread Mark . Alman 
 
Agreed, Butch, and the same with The TEXAS CAVER.
 
I always try to make sure that whatever I print, I would be comfortable with if 
it was one of my family members or on the cover of the local newspaper 
(remember those?).
 
If it would embarrass someone or is cave/landowner sensitive, i.e., gives 
directions to a certain cave, it doesn't go in.
 
Luckily, neither has been a problem.
 
BUT, in the age of Facebook and every yahoo in existence having a cellphone 
with a camera, how you will ever be able control this is beyond me.
 
The genie is out of the bottle and it, along with personal privacy, has gone 
the way of the chariot and carbide.
 
(See the Rutgers incident).
 
 
Rest assured that Butch and I will be the epitome of privacy and good taste, 
relatively speaking in a caver sense.
 
 
All the other avenues, good luck with all that!
 
 
Mark
 
 
P.S. - I'm surprised this hasn't been discussed sooner, this week or in prior 
years.
 
 



From: Butch Fralia [mailto:bfra...@maverickgrotto.org]
Sent: Fri 10/8/2010 9:01 AM
To: 'Saj Zappitello'; Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] new TCR photography policy



Is this an official policy or?

 

Wouldn't it be easier to just say don't take photos of naked people?

 

TCR is a difficult place to get photo permission for everyone in the photo, 
there could be hundreds.   If we have to ask permission from everyone in the 
photo there wont be a TCR photo spread ever again.  We always try to keep the 
website decent and not embarrass anyone.  If they are embarrassed, they can 
request a photo be removed.

 

Butch

 

From: Saj Zappitello [mailto:sajar...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 10:51 AM
To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] new TCR photography policy

 

In the new generation of social networking sites (like facebook) and a global 
digital footprint, some of us have been brainstorming new ways to keep TCR a 
fun and free-spirited retreat from our usual social inhibitions. Our solution 
is to request that everyone participate in a new photography policy that has 
worked well at other free-spirited gatherings.

 

Please DO NOT take photographs of anyone without their permission, and 
certainly do not post photographs of anyone online without permission. 

 

The way this works is simple--just ask people before you take their photograph, 
and ask them again if you want to post photos online.

 

We will post a reminder of this new policy at registration. Let's keep this 
event fun and wild!

 

Feel free to respond to me OFF LIST if you have comments about this.

 

Thanks and happy caving!

~Saj

Re: [Texascavers] new TCR photography policy

2010-10-08 Thread J. LaRue Thomas 
Butch et. al,
I do not think the concern expressed has anything to do with our website which 
has always taken great care with photos. I think the concern is with pictures 
on social networking sites. For some reason people continue to think of 
facebook, myspace, etc. as being more private than they are.

I did read recently that facebook is working on some sort of a "private group" 
feature which may help some. Jacqui

- Original Message - 
  From: Butch Fralia 
  To: 'Saj Zappitello' ; Texascavers@texascavers.com 
  Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 9:01 AM
  Subject: RE: [Texascavers] new TCR photography policy


  Is this an official policy or?

   

  Wouldn't it be easier to just say don't take photos of naked people?

   

  TCR is a difficult place to get photo permission for everyone in the photo, 
there could be hundreds.   If we have to ask permission from everyone in the 
photo there wont be a TCR photo spread ever again.  We always try to keep the 
website decent and not embarrass anyone.  If they are embarrassed, they can 
request a photo be removed.

   

  Butch

   

  From: Saj Zappitello [mailto:sajar...@gmail.com] 
  Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 10:51 AM
  To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
  Subject: [Texascavers] new TCR photography policy

   

  In the new generation of social networking sites (like facebook) and a global 
digital footprint, some of us have been brainstorming new ways to keep TCR a 
fun and free-spirited retreat from our usual social inhibitions. Our solution 
is to request that everyone participate in a new photography policy that has 
worked well at other free-spirited gatherings.

   

  Please DO NOT take photographs of anyone without their permission, and 
certainly do not post photographs of anyone online without permission. 

   

  The way this works is simple--just ask people before you take their 
photograph, and ask them again if you want to post photos online.

   

  We will post a reminder of this new policy at registration. Let's keep this 
event fun and wild!

   

  Feel free to respond to me OFF LIST if you have comments about this.

   

  Thanks and happy caving!

  ~Saj

Re: [Texascavers] new TCR photography policy

2010-10-08 Thread Don Arburn 
You also can't know what would embarrass a given person (especially us caver 
types).


Don's iPhone.

On Oct 8, 2010, at 9:01 AM, Butch Fralia  wrote:

> Is this an official policy or?
> 
>  
> 
> Wouldn’t it be easier to just say don’t take photos of naked people?
> 
>  
> 
> TCR is a difficult place to get photo permission for everyone in the photo, 
> there could be hundreds.   If we have to ask permission from everyone in the 
> photo there wont be a TCR photo spread ever again.  We always try to keep the 
> website decent and not embarrass anyone.  If they are embarrassed, they can 
> request a photo be removed.
> 
>  
> 
> Butch
> 
>  
> 
> From: Saj Zappitello [mailto:sajar...@gmail.com] 
> Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 10:51 AM
> To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: [Texascavers] new TCR photography policy
> 
>  
> 
> In the new generation of social networking sites (like facebook) and a global 
> digital footprint, some of us have been brainstorming new ways to keep TCR a 
> fun and free-spirited retreat from our usual social inhibitions. Our solution 
> is to request that everyone participate in a new photography policy that has 
> worked well at other free-spirited gatherings.
> 
>  
> 
> Please DO NOT take photographs of anyone without their permission, and 
> certainly do not post photographs of anyone online without permission.
> 
>  
> 
> The way this works is simple--just ask people before you take their 
> photograph, and ask them again if you want to post photos online.
> 
>  
> 
> We will post a reminder of this new policy at registration. Let's keep this 
> event fun and wild!
> 
>  
> 
> Feel free to respond to me OFF LIST if you have comments about this.
> 
>  
> 
> Thanks and happy caving!
> 
> ~Saj

RE: [Texascavers] new TCR photography policy

2010-10-08 Thread Butch Fralia 
Is this an official policy or?

 

Wouldn't it be easier to just say don't take photos of naked people?

 

TCR is a difficult place to get photo permission for everyone in the photo,
there could be hundreds.   If we have to ask permission from everyone in the
photo there wont be a TCR photo spread ever again.  We always try to keep
the website decent and not embarrass anyone.  If they are embarrassed, they
can request a photo be removed.

 

Butch

 

From: Saj Zappitello [mailto:sajar...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2010 10:51 AM
To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] new TCR photography policy

 

In the new generation of social networking sites (like facebook) and a
global digital footprint, some of us have been brainstorming new ways to
keep TCR a fun and free-spirited retreat from our usual social inhibitions.
Our solution is to request that everyone participate in a new photography
policy that has worked well at other free-spirited gatherings.

 

Please DO NOT take photographs of anyone without their permission, and
certainly do not post photographs of anyone online without permission. 

 

The way this works is simple--just ask people before you take their
photograph, and ask them again if you want to post photos online.

 

We will post a reminder of this new policy at registration. Let's keep this
event fun and wild!

 

Feel free to respond to me OFF LIST if you have comments about this.

 

Thanks and happy caving!

~Saj

[Texascavers] Second call for ballots

2010-10-08 Thread Ron Ralph 
Member of the Texas Speleological Association,



If you will not be able to attend TCR in two weeks but wish to vote in the
general election of Texas Speleological Association officers for 2011, you
need to write me with your best USPS address to receive a ballot. Official
ballots will be mailed out on Monday, October 18, one to each individual or
student membership and two to each family membership. Please promptly return
the card (postmarked by Friday, October 29) as I will do the final count on
Saturday, October 30. You will need to provide an envelope, stamp and then
mail to the TSA post office box provided on the ballot.



Remember that all candidates must be NSS members, so inquire if you have a
write-in vote. And please write or give me a call if you have questions. If
you know a member not subscribed to “texascavers,” please pass on this
message for me.



Ron Ralph, Elections Committee Chair

ronra...@austin.rr.com

(512) 280-9648







Sample Ballot (for the Sunday, October 17, 2010 election)



□Chairman  Mark Alman NSS #
43400



□Vice Chairman  Ellie Watson NSS # 60439



□Treasurer  Michael Cicherski NSS #
36668



□Secretary  Denise Prendergast   NSS #
48638



□Floor nomination   



□Write in vote

RE: [Texascavers] caving on Star Trek

2010-10-08 Thread Mark . Alman 
Boy, howdy, David!
 
Do you ever have WAY too much time on your hands!
 
Come out to Longhorn or CBSP or Gov't Canyon or the Lake Amisted Project and do 
some REAL caving. 
 
As Bill B. put so eleoquently a while back, "Do you ever sleep?!"
 
 
(Look at the posting time below).
 
 
Seriously,
 
Mark
 



From: David [mailto:dlocklea...@gmail.com]
Sent: Fri 10/8/2010 2:02 AM
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: [Texascavers] caving on Star Trek



This post isn't about real caving, but Hollywood-style caving.



Some of you may remember a Star Trek series called "Enterprise."

Re: [Texascavers] caving on Star Trek

2010-10-08 Thread tbsamsel 

What about when The Brady Bunch went caving? Oct 8, 2010 02:02:49 AM, dlocklea...@gmail.com wrote:
This post isn't about real caving, but Hollywood-style caving.Some of you may remember a Star Trek series called "Enterprise."In the episode below, there is a lengthy caving scene.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfBH_zEuTYA&feature=relatedListen at 2:45 as Dr. Phlox describes the cavern system and has an interestingpronouciation of the word "speleothems." ( Is it pronounced likethat somewhere ? )At 3:20, Capt. Archer ask Ensign Mayweather about his "caving experience."At 4:09, they do an inventory of their caving packs.Note at 6:17 how they approach the cave entrance high in the mountain.Check out all the rock-climbing gear and no caving helmets, just abright spot-lightover-the-shoulder mounted on some kind of cantilever bar,that swivels in several directions, and is mounted to a rigid frame back-pack.( Do you go in any caves were that light system would even work ? )I think they are even wearing rock-climbing shoes.This was most likely an alpine cave based on the scenery in the backgroundaround the entrance. So they are totally unprepared for that.Commander Tucker chats about his experience in a tourist cave, as theypass the twilight zone.Check out that easy walk in, as they find a nice pit!See how they rig the rope to the crack in the rock with just a single mechanicalchock. All 3 of them have their own ropes for this deep drop and they rappelside by side.Each rope they had was probably your typical length sold at REI, but note thepit is at least 100 meters deep ( more like 250 ).Watch thru 1:45 of part 2 as they continue descending the pit ( ontiny Figure 8's )http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hgFydWpJkw&feature=relatedSkip scenes 1:45 thru 5:04 of part 2.The 3 cavers reach the bottom of the pit at 5:04 in part 2.Notice at 6:16 how easy the mechanical chocks fit into the cracks in thecave's wall.Check out that awesome accident at 6:17. ( I bet the stunt men doing thescene were he gets racked on the big rock didn't enjoy that. )Whoa! Amazing belay arrest at 6:47!! The 3 of them fell down thatsteep slope for30 seconds before 2 of them going free-fall for another 7 seconds!Note the geology of the walls in the pit look like they were rappeling atDevil's Post Pile Monumenthttp://www.flickr.com/photos/36092537@N04/4734576972/sizes/m/in/photostream/Then after an impossible save by the middle victim, the director doesn'tshow how the 2 cavers got back up to the ledge where the belayer was.They would have been severaly hundred feet below the belayer.The trip leader is deep underground on a ledge in a deep pit, with a brokenleg and torn ligaments and the 2 novice cavers continue on without himexploring the deep pit.The caving picks up again at 3:23 in part 3.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNy7b9EGqiI&feature=relatedThey push a long crawlway with Spanish Moss decorating the ceiling.( I presume that is supposed to represent fragile gypsum flowers )Look at how they push the rigid-frame back-packs in front of them thruthe crawlways.They finally reach the 3 cave scientist studying the speleothems.These speleologistare hard-care and plan to stay down there 3 weeks even if they are executedupon leaving. And Lt. Reed, still has a long coil of shiny ropeover his shoulderafter just having done a long crawlway.Note how Commander Tucker is upset that he had to crawl thru "lava tubes" for 2days to reach the scientist.skip 6:45 to 9:29 of part 3At 9:29 there is a scene showing them scrambling up a steep slope.Part 3 ends, and Part 4 begins.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpxWecZdVzY&feature=relatedIt starts out with them heading up towards the injured trip leader. Theyfinally clip on some Petzl handled ascenders. It looked like the 2 humanswere frogging up the rope. But the 3 speleologist climb smooth cave wallsfaster than Dan Osman climbs granite ( R.I.P. )They actually do a vertical rescue on the deep pit. Note they have all theequipment in place for a z-rig or some type of pulley-assisted system.The EndI guess it would be nice to have the all the caving scenes in one back-to-backclip without all the other plot stuff, along with commentary as to howthey couldhave prevented the accident in the first place. Had that accidentreally takenplace, those tiny Figure 8's they were rappeling on would have just added to theproblem. And when that giant rock slab fell to the bottom of thepit, that wouldhave most likely hurt them even if it didn't hit them.In summary, I give them 1 star for trying to make a real caving scene,but no morestars because of all the poor technique they demonstrated.David Locklear-Visit our website: http://texascavers.comTo unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.comFor additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com

-
Visit our website: http://texascave

texascavers Digest 8 Oct 2010 07:02:46 -0000 Issue 1163

2010-10-08 Thread texascavers-digest-help 

texascavers Digest 8 Oct 2010 07:02:46 - Issue 1163

Topics (messages 16232 through 16240):

Re: an interesting trip report
16232 by: speleosteele.tx.rr.com
16235 by: caverarch.aol.com

new TCR photography policy
16233 by: Saj Zappitello

Blue Spring Cave
16234 by: Mixon Bill

Terminal Siphons to play at 2010 TCR, Marble Falls, TX October 15-17
16236 by: ellie :)

a personal road-trip story
16237 by: David

Re: [erncrc] Cave diving rescue in France
16238 by: Dave H. Crusoe

miners trapped in mine in Chile
16239 by: ryan monjaras

caving on Star Trek
16240 by: David

Administrivia:

To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:


To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail:


To post to the list, e-mail:



--
--- Begin Message ---
Twenty or twenty-one years ago some Texas cavers were in on exploring and 
mapping in
this incredible Tennessee cave. Robert Hemperly, Don Morley, my son Brian, and I
camped in Blue Springs Cave for several days way back in it. I recall one day 
while camped in there discovering and mapping over 8,000 feet of passage. 

This cave was known for a couple hundred years as being about 400 feet long. 
Frat boys
had partied in there and the vandalism was pretty awful. But the intriguing 
thing
was a tight crawl at the end of it which blew air. Someone enlarged that, came 
to a crack in the floor that looked like it dropped down into walking passage, 
this
was enlarged, and then something like 27 miles of cave was explored and mapped 
over
the next couple of years. I was pleased to be part of it, even if only on two or
three trips.

Looking forward to TCR.

Bill Steele
Irving, Texas 


 David  wrote: 
> Here is an interesting trip report for Blue Spring Resurgence in
> Tennessee from about 8
> days ago.
> 
>  
> http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showthread.php/14520-Blue-Spring-Resurgence-TN
> 
> It appears there will be an even more exciting trip report to be
> posted very soon, as the
> divers apparently returned 2 days ago, and made a major connection.
> 
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is a brief statement from Anne Elmore about Chrissy and Jason's (both 
former Florida cavers) discovery:


16 years of Cave Diving history have come to a close- Chrissy and Jason 
connected the Blue Spring Resurgence to Blue Spring Cave proper yesterday- 8 
hours in cave, 3.5 in the water- around 5200 total feet from the spring to what 
we believe to be the CRD survey. As a bonus, we also found 1600 feet of new dry 
borehole. The cave is over 36 miles long


I hope a report as exhaustive as the one David found is posted for the 
breakthrough.


-Original Message-
From: David 
To: Cavers Texas 
Sent: Wed, Oct 6, 2010 1:17 am
Subject: [Texascavers] an interesting trip report


Here is an interesting trip report for Blue Spring Resurgence in
Tennessee from about 8
days ago.

 
http://www.cavediver.net/forum/showthread.php/14520-Blue-Spring-Resurgence-TN

It appears there will be an even more exciting trip report to be
posted very soon, as the
divers apparently returned 2 days ago, and made a major connection.

-
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com


 
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In the new generation of social networking sites (like facebook) and a
global digital footprint, some of us have been brainstorming new ways to
keep TCR a fun and free-spirited retreat from our usual social inhibitions.
Our solution is to request that everyone participate in a new photography
policy that has worked well at other free-spirited gatherings.

Please DO NOT take photographs of anyone without their permission, and
certainly do not post photographs of anyone online without permission.

The way this works is simple--just ask people before you take their
photograph, and ask them again if you want to post photos online.

We will post a reminder of this new policy at registration. Let's keep this
event fun and wild!

Feel free to respond to me OFF LIST if you have comments about this.

Thanks and happy caving!
~Saj
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The exploration of that cave in Tennessee is described in great detail  
in the new NSS book Blue Spring Cave. The book includes the first  
couple of dives in the resurgence, but of course not most the recent  
developments. paperback $38, with discounts for NSS members. Go to  
nssbookstore.org.


My review of the book again:

[Texascavers] caving on Star Trek

2010-10-08 Thread David 
This post isn't about real caving, but Hollywood-style caving.



Some of you may remember a Star Trek series called "Enterprise."

In the episode below, there is a lengthy caving scene.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfBH_zEuTYA&feature=related

Listen at 2:45 as Dr. Phlox describes the cavern system and has an interesting
pronouciation of the word "speleothems."   ( Is it pronounced like
that somewhere ? )

At 3:20, Capt. Archer ask Ensign Mayweather about his "caving experience."

At 4:09, they do an inventory of their caving packs.

Note at 6:17 how they approach the cave entrance high in the mountain.

Check out all the rock-climbing gear and no caving helmets, just a
bright spot-light
over-the-shoulder mounted on some kind of cantilever bar,
that swivels in several directions, and is mounted to a rigid frame back-pack.
( Do you go in any caves were that light system would even work ? )

I think they are even wearing rock-climbing shoes.

This was most likely an alpine cave based on the scenery in the background
around the entrance.So they are totally unprepared for that.

Commander Tucker chats about his experience in a tourist cave, as they
pass the twilight zone.

Check out that easy walk in, as they find a nice pit!

See how they rig the rope to the crack in the rock with just a single mechanical
chock. All 3 of them have their own ropes for this deep drop and they rappel
side by side.

Each rope they had was probably your typical length sold at REI, but note the
pit is at least 100 meters deep ( more like 250 ).

Watch thru 1:45 of part 2 as they continue descending the pit ( on
tiny Figure 8's )

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hgFydWpJkw&feature=related

Skip scenes 1:45 thru 5:04 of part 2.

The 3 cavers reach the bottom of the pit at 5:04 in part 2.

Notice at 6:16 how easy the mechanical chocks fit into the cracks in the
cave's wall.

Check out that awesome accident at 6:17.( I bet the stunt men doing the
scene were he gets racked on the big rock didn't enjoy that. )

Whoa!  Amazing belay arrest at 6:47!! The 3 of them fell down that
steep slope for
30 seconds before 2 of them going free-fall for another 7 seconds!

Note the geology of the walls in the pit look like they were rappeling at
Devil's Post Pile Monument

  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/36092537@N04/4734576972/sizes/m/in/photostream/

Then after an impossible save by the middle victim, the director doesn't
show how the 2 cavers got back up to the ledge where the belayer was.
They would have been severaly hundred feet below the belayer.

The trip leader is deep underground on a ledge in a deep pit, with a broken
leg and torn ligaments and the 2 novice cavers continue on without him
exploring the deep pit.

The caving picks up again at 3:23 in part 3.

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNy7b9EGqiI&feature=related

They push a long crawlway with Spanish Moss decorating the ceiling.
( I presume that is supposed to represent fragile gypsum flowers )

Look at how they push the rigid-frame back-packs in front of them thru
the crawlways.

They finally reach the 3 cave scientist studying the speleothems.
These speleologist
are hard-care and plan to stay down there 3 weeks even if they are executed
upon leaving.  And Lt. Reed, still has a long coil of shiny rope
over his shoulder
after just having done a long crawlway.

Note how Commander Tucker is upset that he had to crawl thru "lava tubes" for 2
days to reach the scientist.

skip 6:45 to 9:29 of part 3

At 9:29 there is a scene showing them scrambling up a steep slope.

Part 3 ends, and Part 4 begins.

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpxWecZdVzY&feature=related

It starts out with them heading up towards the injured trip leader.   They
finally clip on some Petzl handled ascenders.It looked like the 2 humans
were frogging up the rope.But the 3 speleologist climb smooth cave walls
faster than Dan Osman climbs granite ( R.I.P. )

They actually do a vertical rescue on the deep pit.   Note they have all the
equipment in place for a z-rig or some type of pulley-assisted system.

The End

I guess it would be nice to have the all the caving scenes in one back-to-back
clip without all the other plot stuff, along with commentary as to how
they could
have prevented the accident in the first place.  Had that accident
really taken
place, those tiny Figure 8's they were rappeling on would have just added to the
problem. And when that giant rock slab fell to the bottom of the
pit, that would
have most likely hurt them even if it didn't hit them.

In summary, I give them 1 star for trying to make a real caving scene,
but no more
stars because of all the poor technique they demonstrated.

David Locklear

-
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com