[Texascavers] Underground Texas Grotto meeting December 15, 2010
Howdy Caver, You are cordially invited to attend the Underground Texas Grotto meeting on Wednesday Deecember 15, 2010. This will be the last offical meeting of the year. Turn off the television, get away from the house, and spend your evening with some Austin cavers. The meeting is on Wednesday from 7:45 P.M. - 9:00 P.M. University of Texas Campus in 2.48 Painter Hall NOTE: THE ROOM NUMBER CHANGE to 2.48 PAI http://www.utexas.edu/maps/main/buildings/pai.html Jim Kennedy will present the Program for the evening The National Caves Association convention and some California caves Jim was recently invited to join the NCA --- which represents the show cave operators in the U.S. --- at their annual convention in Murphys, California. He discussed White Nose Syndrome and how the show caves can help educate the public and raise money for critical research. During the conference, he was able to participate in field trips to four very interesting local show caves, Mercer Caverns, California Caverns, Black Chasm Cavern, and Moaning Cavern. At the latter, he even had a chance to take a couple of rides on their twin 1500' (458m) zip line. Come check out what the Austin cavers have been doing. For information on Underground Texas Grotto activities, please see www.utgrotto.orgAll of our information including officer contact info, trips reports, new caver training, event calendar, and posting links to beginner trips or vertical rope training are available. Before the meetings, some may meet at Sao Paulo www.saopaulos.net for a happy hour special. Then after the official meeting, we continue with the decades long tradition to reconvene for burgers, beer, and tall tales of caving at Posse East. www.posse-east.com The UT Grotto needs you, the caver with photos and a story to share about your adventures, scientific research, or something else really cool. Contact Gary v...@utgrotto.org SIncerely. Gary Franklin UT Grotto VIce-Chair and Program Organizer 512-585-6057 caver.g...@gmail.com
texascavers Digest 13 Dec 2010 00:36:57 -0000 Issue 1209
texascavers Digest 13 Dec 2010 00:36:57 - Issue 1209 Topics (messages 16694 through 16702): Re: El Malpais 16694 by: freddie poer 16696 by: Mark.Alman.L-3com.com 16697 by: Fofo Devils Sinkhole TPWD Video 16695 by: Geary Schindel going to Mexico 16698 by: Mixon Bill 16699 by: SS 16700 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net LED headlamp review 16701 by: David Underground Texas Grotto meeting December 15, 2010 16702 by: Gary Franklin Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: texascavers-digest-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: texascavers-digest-unsubscr...@texascavers.com To post to the list, e-mail: texascavers@texascavers.com -- ---BeginMessage--- At least we still have Mexico. We can still safely go caving there without having to contend with cave gates and cave closures. --- On Fri, 12/10/10, Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais To: Rod Goke rod.g...@ieee.org Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Friday, December 10, 2010, 12:48 PM Or conduct a study to see how many people would actually be affected by a closure of those selected El Malpais caves. Answer: very, very few. Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com From: Rod Goke rod.g...@earthlink.net To: Andy Gluesenkamp a...@gluesenkamp.com Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Fri, December 10, 2010 11:43:44 AM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais If the bureaucrats are so interested in research, why don't they make a serious effort to determine scientifically whether or not closing caves helps to prevent WNS? Instead of closing all their caves on the basis of little more than speculation about how cavers might inadvertently spread WNS, why don't they randomly divide their caves into two groups, where one is an experimental group with caves closed to recreational caving and where the other is a control group with caves remaining open as usual? Then they could actually study whether or not closing caves has a statistically significant effect on the spread of WNS. Do you know of any examples where government bureaucrats have been doing this to study the effectiveness of cave closing? What, if any, other research techniques are they using to determine whether or not cave closing is effective in combating WNS? What, if any, research results are there to justify the prohibition of noncommercial caving while commercial show cave operations are allowed to carry on business as usual? Rod L. Rodney Goke, yet another Ph.D. (as if it matters here ;-) 5105 Dusty Trail Cove Austin, Texas 78749 (512) 892-4186 rod.g...@ieee.org -Original Message- From: Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com Sent: Dec 10, 2010 8:12 AM To: freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais Whaaat? Cloning? Test tube baby bats? Isn't this jumping the gun? Seriously, the most reasonable approach at this time is to document what is there. That way, we will have some clue as to what the impacts of WNS may be. These ARE proactive measures. best, Andy Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D. 700 Billie Brooks Drive Driftwood, Texas 78619 (512) 799-1095 a...@gluesenkamp.com From: freddie poer freddiepoe...@yahoo.com To: Andy Gluesenkamp a...@gluesenkamp.com Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 6:09:54 PM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais Gee, Isn't it going to be hard to conduct these surveys if the caves are closed? Or, does this mean that the caves are closed to everyone except a few hand picked NPS personnel? This whole knee jerk close the caves reaction smells a little too much like the nobody should go caving except us syndrome that I have seen among certain cavers of the academic persuasion. Bill is obviously right in that nothing we do will alter what path WNS will take. It will not matter one whit whether all of us, or none of us, goes caving. WNS will complete it's own cycle. Why aren't we seeing some effort at proactive measures, like DNA preservation or maybe bat sperm and ova collection, instead of the putting out fires approach we are seeing now? --- On Thu, 12/9/10, Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Andy Gluesenkamp andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] El Malpais To: Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com, Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Thursday, December 9, 2010, 2:20 PM Bill, Blame the bureaucrats if you must but it sounds like they are taking steps to study the situation carefully. The NPS is
[PBSS] PBSS December Meeting
The December meeting of the Permian Basin Speleological Society will be held this Tuesday, December 14th, 7:00 p.m. in the back room of Murray's Delicatessen in Midland, Texas. We have the room at 6:00 so feel free to come earlier. Murray's is is located at 3211 West Wadley in Midland. Any and all are welcome! Although we have a bit of business, (another 5 Mouth dig to schedule, a Winter Tech report) we will be primarily being Christmas-y and Murray's most excellent NY cheesecake will be involved. For further infomation about the Permian Basin Speleological Society contact: Jacqui Thomas jlrbi...@sonoratx.net, or Bill Bentley ca...@caver.net. Regarding The Hole News (especially trip reports): Kel Thomas ktho...@sonoratx.net PBSS web page: http://www.caver.net/pbss/pbss.html The Permian Basin Speleological Society was founded in October 1983 and was chartered as the 300th grotto of the National Speleological Society on January 18, 1984. The Permian Basin Speleological Society is an affiliated grotto or Caving club with the Texas Speleological Association and the Southwestern Region of the National Speleological Society and supports the cave conservation ethics of the National Speleological Society. National Speleological Society web page: http://www.caves.org/ Texas Speleological Association web page: http://www.cavetexas.org Southwestern Region of the NSS web page: http://www.caves.org/region/swr/ ___ PBSS mailing list p...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/pbss_caver.net
Cascade Caverns sump dive report
A big thanks to all of the help for the tank haul to the sump in Cascade Caverns on Saturday. James Brown dove the sump, starting at 10:36am and resurfanced approximately 40 minutes later. James extended the cave by 366 feet until he ran out of guideline. Per his report, Start of Sump dive is the smallest at 6 feet wide and 2 feet high. Underwater passage after air bell averages 12 feet wide and 6 feet high. Maximum depth is 31 feet. We'll be going back at the end of January or beginning of February to push this further. Thanks go out to the following people: Tom Sims Gerry Geletzke David Serafine Layne Hedrick Ian Riddington Brandon Cook Andy Zenker Lyndon Tiu Peter Druschke Gerry and Andy also explored Raccoon Ramada cave that is on the property, but did not get a survey yet. We'll be returning to do that as well. The entrance to this is a very tight squeeze and I don't know anyone else that has squeezed into it. I'd be curious if there are any records of this. Charles
Re: Cascade Caverns sump dive report
Charles: That is awesome. Thanks for keeping me up to speed on the adventures! And I'm glad it all worked out like it did with the prep the prior weekend. I would love to get any photos from the dive or of the crew. Best, Scott On Dec 12, 2010, at 9:25 PM, Charles Goldsmith wrote: A big thanks to all of the help for the tank haul to the sump in Cascade Caverns on Saturday. James Brown dove the sump, starting at 10:36am and resurfanced approximately 40 minutes later. James extended the cave by 366 feet until he ran out of guideline. Per his report, Start of Sump dive is the smallest at 6 feet wide and 2 feet high. Underwater passage after air bell averages 12 feet wide and 6 feet high. Maximum depth is 31 feet. We'll be going back at the end of January or beginning of February to push this further. Thanks go out to the following people: Tom Sims Gerry Geletzke David Serafine Layne Hedrick Ian Riddington Brandon Cook Andy Zenker Lyndon Tiu Peter Druschke Gerry and Andy also explored Raccoon Ramada cave that is on the property, but did not get a survey yet. We'll be returning to do that as well. The entrance to this is a very tight squeeze and I don't know anyone else that has squeezed into it. I'd be curious if there are any records of this. Charles
Re: Cascade Caverns sump dive report
Will do, as soon as I get pics in from people. I'll share. On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 8:54 PM, Scott Kyle sk...@cascadecaverns.comwrote: Charles: That is awesome. Thanks for keeping me up to speed on the adventures! And I'm glad it all worked out like it did with the prep the prior weekend. I would love to get any photos from the dive or of the crew. Best, Scott On Dec 12, 2010, at 9:25 PM, Charles Goldsmith wrote: A big thanks to all of the help for the tank haul to the sump in Cascade Caverns on Saturday. James Brown dove the sump, starting at 10:36am and resurfanced approximately 40 minutes later. James extended the cave by 366 feet until he ran out of guideline. Per his report, Start of Sump dive is the smallest at 6 feet wide and 2 feet high. Underwater passage after air bell averages 12 feet wide and 6 feet high. Maximum depth is 31 feet. We'll be going back at the end of January or beginning of February to push this further. Thanks go out to the following people: Tom Sims Gerry Geletzke David Serafine Layne Hedrick Ian Riddington Brandon Cook Andy Zenker Lyndon Tiu Peter Druschke Gerry and Andy also explored Raccoon Ramada cave that is on the property, but did not get a survey yet. We'll be returning to do that as well. The entrance to this is a very tight squeeze and I don't know anyone else that has squeezed into it. I'd be curious if there are any records of this. Charles
Re: [Texascavers] Cascade Caverns sump dive report
re:records. back in the mid 70s Randy Waters used to do a lot out at that place /area. Kurt Menking or George Veni might know what records from that era exist Charles Goldsmith wrote: A big thanks to all of the help for the tank haul to the sump in Cascade Caverns on Saturday. James Brown dove the sump, starting at 10:36am and resurfanced approximately 40 minutes later. James extended the cave by 366 feet until he ran out of guideline. Per his report, Start of Sump dive is the smallest at 6 feet wide and 2 feet high. Underwater passage after air bell averages 12 feet wide and 6 feet high. Maximum depth is 31 feet. We'll be going back at the end of January or beginning of February to push this further. Thanks go out to the following people:Tom SimsGerry GeletzkeDavid SerafineLayne HedrickIan RiddingtonBrandon CookAndy ZenkerLyndon TiuPeter Druschke Gerry and Andy also explored Raccoon Ramada cave that is on the property, but did not get a survey yet. We'll be returning to do that as well. The entrance to this is a very tight squeeze and I don't know anyone else that has squeezed into it. I'd be curious if there are any records of this. Charles
Re: [Texascavers] Cascade Caverns sump dive report
Thanks Andy, I received an email from Jerry Atkin with some info on it. On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 10:19 PM, Andy Grubbs hays...@centurytel.netwrote: re:records. back in the mid 70s Randy Waters used to do a lot out at that place /area. Kurt Menking or George Veni might know what records from that era exist Charles Goldsmith wrote: A big thanks to all of the help for the tank haul to the sump in Cascade Caverns on Saturday. James Brown dove the sump, starting at 10:36am and resurfanced approximately 40 minutes later. James extended the cave by 366 feet until he ran out of guideline. Per his report, Start of Sump dive is the smallest at 6 feet wide and 2 feet high. Underwater passage after air bell averages 12 feet wide and 6 feet high. Maximum depth is 31 feet. We'll be going back at the end of January or beginning of February to push this further. Thanks go out to the following people:Tom SimsGerry GeletzkeDavid SerafineLayne HedrickIan RiddingtonBrandon CookAndy ZenkerLyndon TiuPeter Druschke Gerry and Andy also explored Raccoon Ramada cave that is on the property, but did not get a survey yet. We'll be returning to do that as well. The entrance to this is a very tight squeeze and I don't know anyone else that has squeezed into it. I'd be curious if there are any records of this. Charles
RE: [Texascavers] Cascade Caverns sump dive report
My congratulations to James and the team which made this discovery possible. I dove the sump in 1982 and found it ended in mud fill at a depth of 5 m. It seems that floods since then washed out that plug. I admit to not having had much hope for the sump and am glad to be proven wrong! As for Raccoon Ramada, it was discovered and explored by Randy Waters about 30 years. He never got around to surveying it. He did survey and draw a pencil draft of the nearby Spider System. If anyone is interested in finalizing that map let me know. It would be a simple matter to digitally trace his draft. Unfortunately, Randy is no longer with us to complete the map himself. George From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2010 19:25 To: Cavetex; Scott Kyle Subject: [Texascavers] Cascade Caverns sump dive report A big thanks to all of the help for the tank haul to the sump in Cascade Caverns on Saturday. James Brown dove the sump, starting at 10:36am and resurfanced approximately 40 minutes later. James extended the cave by 366 feet until he ran out of guideline. Per his report, Start of Sump dive is the smallest at 6 feet wide and 2 feet high. Underwater passage after air bell averages 12 feet wide and 6 feet high. Maximum depth is 31 feet. We'll be going back at the end of January or beginning of February to push this further. Thanks go out to the following people: Tom Sims Gerry Geletzke David Serafine Layne Hedrick Ian Riddington Brandon Cook Andy Zenker Lyndon Tiu Peter Druschke Gerry and Andy also explored Raccoon Ramada cave that is on the property, but did not get a survey yet. We'll be returning to do that as well. The entrance to this is a very tight squeeze and I don't know anyone else that has squeezed into it. I'd be curious if there are any records of this. Charles
