[Texascavers] book review: archeological investigations

[Mixon Bill]

"Cave Explorations in Missouri, Indiana, Kentucky, Tennessee, and  
Alabama." Gerard Fowke. St. Louis, J. Missouri; 2013. ISBN  
978-1-940777-06-1. 5.5 by 8.5 inches, softbound, 209 pages. $14.95.


This is an abridged reprint, newly typeset, of Fowke's classic 1922  
"Archeological Investigations," bulletin 76 of the Bureau of American  
Ethnology at the Smithsonian Institution. The grayscale illustrations  
in the original are well reproduced. Roughly the first three-quarters  
of the reprint covers about seventy-five caves and a few other sites  
in Missouri; the remainder is devoted to caves in the other states in  
the title. The material in the original that is not included, about a  
quarter of that book, is non-cave material, including archaeology of  
Hawaii. (A couple of modern cave burials in Hawaii are mentioned.)  
Amazon lists at least three recent facsimile reprints of the whole  
book, at higher prices. It isn't hard to find a used original on the  
web for less than the price of this partial reprint.—Bill Mixon


Work is the curse of the drinking class.

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[Texascavers] book review: crystal caves of Mexico

[Mixon Bill]

"Journey into the Giant Selenite Crystal Caves of Mexico." Leela  
Hutchison. CreateSpace; 2014. ISBN 978-1496145680. 6 by 9 inches,  
softbound, 102 pages. $19.95.


This little book was self-published by the author using CreateSpace  
and is sold by Amazon. There is also a Kindle version. One might  
expect a book with such a high price per page to contain a lot of nice  
color photos of the spectacular giant crystals, but in fact the book  
contains only a few small, mostly poor-quality black-and-white ones.  
The text isn't much either, the type being large, and isn't much to  
brag about, either. It could have used a good going over by a middle- 
school English teacher. After some background on the author's interest  
in crystals, it tells the story of the author's 2001 visit to the  
recently discovered Ojo de la Reina and Cave of the Crystals in the  
Naica mine in Chihuahua. She was one of the first two women to visit  
the caves, apparently on the same trip when Carlos Lazcano took the  
first photographs of the crystals to be published in caving  
literature, in "AMCS Activities Newsletter" 25, 2002. The visit,  
without benefit of the cooling gear used on later explorations, was  
grueling, but very exciting to the author, who is into healing by  
crystal energy and that sort of thing.—Bill Mixon


Work is the curse of the drinking class.

You may "reply" to the address this message
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Re: [SWR] Continuing FOIA commentary

[michael queen]

Jim,

I appreciate the frustration involved in sending repeated inquiries and
comments to a land management agency and  receiving no reply. It has
happened to me on several occasions. Most of the time I just figure it's
typical bureaucratic snafu and am not quick to rock the boat, except where
the safety of caves or endangered critters  When that happened with the BLM
regional office in Roswell I felt action was demanded and wrote a number of
rather pointed letters to the head of the BLM, several senators, the
Presidents science adviser, and the President. Most were answered in a
polite manner assuring me that nothing was amiss. However, they contributed
to several senatorial inquiries being launched, and eventually the Roswell
district manager was reassigned, the Dark Canyon drilling proposal was
significantly modified and the cave protection zone was designated, and
they abandoned plans to have the CRF help look for potential grizzly dens
in the Capitans.

A "vote" approving a letter by the Chair inquiring after the status and
justifications of cave closures is not, in any way I can tell, the same as
approving that someone else write an FOIA request in the name of the SWR.
And to call the person who was chosen *a priori* with the intent of writing
the FOIA request a *liaison* is at best a distortion of the English
language.

Finally, while Pat raised the issue of whom might review all the documents,
I don't interpret that as volunteering to do it herself (in her spare
time?). Nor does it suggest that she has the right background in science to
evaluate those documents that involve science (not all Ph.D.s have a strong
science background). If there are a bunch of scientists in SWR it is they
who should review these, page by page and line by line. I include myself in
that group and would be glad to comment as appropriate.

I appreciate the significant amount of of work you all do in the interest
of caves and the SWR.  Please be assured that I do not question the concern
and frustration shared by SWR board members and others, just the way in
which they chose to pursue these concerns.

Michael


On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 11:41 AM, jen .  wrote:

> Whoa!  I was there and my memory does not match yours.
>
> I remember that there were several abstentions on the motion.
>
> I also don't remember the motion stating that an illegal action was taken
> by the BLM.
>
>
> Jennifer
>
> --
> From: nmca...@centurylink.net
> To: jmofgu...@gmail.com
> Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 10:29:05 -0600
> CC: s...@caver.net
> Subject: [SWR] Continuing FOIA commentary
>
>
>
> *Michael,*
> *Thank you for your comments.*
>
>  *From:* michael queen 
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 05, 2014 8:05 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [SWR] SWR BLM FOIA a mistake
>  Stan raises some valid points, which have been criticized but not really
> addressed.
> *I’m sorry that you feel that way. They were addressed, by Steve Peerman,
> myself and others, in several emails.*
>
> It is not at all clear he was outvoted (since a vote of the SWR membership
> seems not to have been taken), nor that a consensus was sought or desired.
>
> *I’m sorry that you feel that way.  A unanimous vote did occur at the last
> regional that the Chair write the BLM asking for status and justifications
> for the continuing closure of 25 NM caves, an action taken that was
> illegal, in violation of BLM policy, and a breach of contract with the SWR.
> Mr. Allison was not there to vote.*
>
> His comments on bringing issues to the general membership via email are
> well made and should be discussed openly via internet as well as at the SWR
> meeting.
>
>
> *And they have been. I have, so far, 274 messages pertaining to the
> subject, all since May 9th. A great many of them, probably a majority, were
> on the SWR list server. I do not know how many persons are on that list
> server, but only about 30 of the ~147 regional members have taken the time
> to comment. That leaves nearly 80% of the region that have yet to be heard
> from, and need to be heard from.*
> Liaisons are usually chosen such that they can maintain a dialogue between
> groups and present the views of the group they represent. Synonyms for
> liaise include cooperate, collaborate, and work together. Steve Fleming was
> apparently chosen because of his familiarity with writing FOIA requests,
> which meant that course of action had been chosen before his appointment.
> Regardless of protestations to the contrary, an FOIA request is not
> designed to facilitate cooperation.
>
> *I’m sorry that you feel that way. The history of the SWR regarding
> federal land agencies proves otherwise, as I and others have previously
> attested. Anyone is welcome to dissent, but a working knowledge of the
> processes involved and undertaken, and their historical results, should
> first be obtained. Assertions that are based on opinion and not fact gain
> little if anything.*
>
> This is particularly true when, as Pat Seiser aptly brings

Re: [SWR] Continuing FOIA commentary

[jen .]

Whoa!  I was there and my memory does not match yours.
I remember that there were several abstentions on the motion. 
I also don't remember the motion stating that an illegal action was taken by 
the BLM.  



Jennifer

From: nmca...@centurylink.net
To: jmofgu...@gmail.com
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 10:29:05 -0600
CC: s...@caver.net
Subject: [SWR] Continuing FOIA commentary





 
Michael,
Thank you for your comments.


 

From: michael queen 
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2014 8:05 PM
Subject: Re: [SWR] SWR BLM FOIA a mistake

Stan 
raises some valid points, which have been criticized but not really addressed. 


I’m sorry that you feel that way. They were 
addressed, by Steve Peerman, myself and others, in several 
emails.

It is not at all clear he was outvoted (since 
a vote of the SWR membership seems not to have been taken), nor that a 
consensus 
was sought or desired. 

I’m sorry that you 
feel that way.  A unanimous vote did occur at the last regional that the 
Chair write the BLM asking for status and justifications for the continuing 
closure of 25 NM caves, an action taken that was illegal, in violation of BLM 
policy, and a breach of contract with the SWR. Mr. Allison was not there to 
vote.
 
His comments on bringing issues to the general membership via email 
are well made and should be discussed openly via internet as well as at the SWR 
meeting.

And they have been. I have, so far, 274 
messages pertaining to the subject, all since May 9th. A great many of them, 
probably a majority, were on the SWR list server. I do not know how many 
persons 
are on that list server, but only about 30 of the ~147 regional members have 
taken the time to comment. That leaves nearly 80% of the region that have yet 
to 
be heard from, and need to be heard from.

Liaisons are usually chosen such that they can maintain a dialogue 
between groups and present the views of the group they represent. Synonyms for 
liaise include cooperate, collaborate, and work together. Steve Fleming was 
apparently chosen because of his familiarity with writing FOIA requests, which 
meant that course of action had been chosen before his appointment. Regardless 
of protestations to the contrary, an FOIA request is not designed to facilitate 
cooperation. 
 
I’m sorry that you feel that way. The 
history of the SWR regarding federal land agencies proves otherwise, as I and 
others have previously attested. Anyone is welcome to dissent, but a working 
knowledge of the processes involved and undertaken, and their historical 
results, should first be obtained. Assertions that are based on opinion and not 
fact gain little if anything.
 
This is particularly true when, as Pat Seiser aptly brings up, it 
is not clear who in SWR can evaluate the technical aspects of the BLM response. 

 
I recommend Pat to be that person, since 
she has brought it up. It will be quite easy, since the reply will contain 
virtually no technical content. A PhD in Biology, Microbiology, Geology or 
other 
related professional field is not required since to my knowledge, only one 
person BLM-NM has one. The SWR has about a dozen.
 
Let me be absolutely clear: I have been a vocal critic of the CBD 
since it became apparent that they were patently uninterested in facts, logic, 
or science. When first I read their draft of the WNS suit I responded 
positively, as a scientist (with as strong a background in biology as geology), 
and tried to point out, point by point, weaknesses in their analysis, all of 
which were ignored and remained uncorrected in their final document. An 
examination of the degrees held by their staff revealed the likely reason - 
lots 
of lawyers and few staff with a good science background (BS's hardly qualify, 
unless accompanied by decades of experience). From what I can gather, they are 
more concerned with keeping up their income than with science, and without a 
sound footing in science, concerns about biological diversity come across as 
window dressing. And I have been acutely disappointed in the readiness with 
which BLM, USFS and NPS have seemed to sign on to the CBD platform rather than 
countering with good science and better data and logic. But it is certainly not 
clear to me (and it seems some several others) that the FOIA request is the 
best 
way to accomplish this. Is there no way that the conniving and 
misrepresentation 
of the CBD can't be brought to the attention of the broader community of 
ecologically concerned individuals, on whose continued support the group 
depends 
for credibility? How can these arguments be presented on the Internet, so that 
when one searches CBD one finds as many criticisms as self-serving claims of 
helping save the planet?
 
If you have a better way to obtain a BLM 
response to justify their actions, both with WNS/cave closure and with CBD, 
please make your knowledge available. Until a better idea is presented (we’ve 
gone 3+ years without one), please do not criticize the action taken. Letters 
t

Re: [SWR] Continuing FOIA commentary

[Martha]

After hosting a SWR in my back yard a few years ago I was under the impression 
decisions had been made prior to the meeting to vote down Linda Star's request 
for SWR support for the Sandia Grotto to offer to host a NNS convention.  There 
were some intimidating tactics and rhetoric by some vocal members and when the 
"role call" voting happened both Kathy Peerman and myself abstained from 
voting.  I don't think those tactics would work with electronic voting. 


People in the SWR enjoy going to NSS conventions, just don't want host one!


Sent from my iPad while waiting for. Friend at MD Anderson hospital

> On Jun 6, 2014, at 11:48 AM, Diana Tomchick 
>  wrote:
> 
>> On Jun 6, 2014, at 11:29 AM, Evatt wrote:
>> 
>> And they have been. I have, so far, 274 messages pertaining to the subject, 
>> all since May 9th. A great many of them, probably a majority, were on the 
>> SWR list server. I do not know how many persons are on that list server, but 
>> only about 30 of the ~147 regional members have taken the time to comment. 
>> That leaves nearly 80% of the region that have yet to be heard from, and 
>> need to be heard from.
> 
> Maybe that's because the majority of us have grown weary of all the email 
> traffic on this subject.
> 
> Diana
> 
> P.S. Regarding electronic voting: I have been voting via the Internet for 
> years for everything from the officers in various scientific organizations 
> (American Chemical Society, American Society for Microbiology, American 
> Crystallographic Association) to officers for the Texas Speleological 
> Association and yes, even directors of the National Speleological Society. 
> Get with the 21st century, and institute electronic voting for your officers.
> 
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> Diana R. Tomchick
> Professor
> University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
> Department of Biophysics
> 5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
> Rm. ND10.214A
> Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
> Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
> 214-645-6383 (phone)
> 214-645-6353 (fax)
> 
> 
> 
> UT Southwestern Medical Center
> The future of medicine, today.
> 
> ___
> SWR mailing list
> s...@caver.net
> http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr
> ___
> This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
___
SWR mailing list
s...@caver.net
http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr
___
 This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET

Re: [SWR] Continuing FOIA commentary

[Diana Tomchick]

On Jun 6, 2014, at 11:29 AM, Evatt wrote:
>
> And they have been. I have, so far, 274 messages pertaining to the subject, 
> all since May 9th. A great many of them, probably a majority, were on the SWR 
> list server. I do not know how many persons are on that list server, but only 
> about 30 of the ~147 regional members have taken the time to comment. That 
> leaves nearly 80% of the region that have yet to be heard from, and need to 
> be heard from.

Maybe that's because the majority of us have grown weary of all the email 
traffic on this subject.

Diana

P.S. Regarding electronic voting: I have been voting via the Internet for years 
for everything from the officers in various scientific organizations (American 
Chemical Society, American Society for Microbiology, American Crystallographic 
Association) to officers for the Texas Speleological Association and yes, even 
directors of the National Speleological Society. Get with the 21st century, and 
institute electronic voting for your officers.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Diana R. Tomchick
Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biophysics
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214A
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)



UT Southwestern Medical Center
The future of medicine, today.

___
SWR mailing list
s...@caver.net
http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr
___
 This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET

[SWR] Continuing FOIA commentary

[Evatt]

Michael,
Thank you for your comments.

From: michael queen 
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2014 8:05 PM
Subject: Re: [SWR] SWR BLM FOIA a mistake
Stan raises some valid points, which have been criticized but not really 
addressed. 

I’m sorry that you feel that way. They were addressed, by Steve Peerman, myself 
and others, in several emails.

It is not at all clear he was outvoted (since a vote of the SWR membership 
seems not to have been taken), nor that a consensus was sought or desired. 

I’m sorry that you feel that way.  A unanimous vote did occur at the last 
regional that the Chair write the BLM asking for status and justifications for 
the continuing closure of 25 NM caves, an action taken that was illegal, in 
violation of BLM policy, and a breach of contract with the SWR. Mr. Allison was 
not there to vote.

His comments on bringing issues to the general membership via email are well 
made and should be discussed openly via internet as well as at the SWR meeting.

And they have been. I have, so far, 274 messages pertaining to the subject, all 
since May 9th. A great many of them, probably a majority, were on the SWR list 
server. I do not know how many persons are on that list server, but only about 
30 of the ~147 regional members have taken the time to comment. That leaves 
nearly 80% of the region that have yet to be heard from, and need to be heard 
from.

Liaisons are usually chosen such that they can maintain a dialogue between 
groups and present the views of the group they represent. Synonyms for liaise 
include cooperate, collaborate, and work together. Steve Fleming was apparently 
chosen because of his familiarity with writing FOIA requests, which meant that 
course of action had been chosen before his appointment. Regardless of 
protestations to the contrary, an FOIA request is not designed to facilitate 
cooperation. 

I’m sorry that you feel that way. The history of the SWR regarding federal land 
agencies proves otherwise, as I and others have previously attested. Anyone is 
welcome to dissent, but a working knowledge of the processes involved and 
undertaken, and their historical results, should first be obtained. Assertions 
that are based on opinion and not fact gain little if anything.

This is particularly true when, as Pat Seiser aptly brings up, it is not clear 
who in SWR can evaluate the technical aspects of the BLM response. 

I recommend Pat to be that person, since she has brought it up. It will be 
quite easy, since the reply will contain virtually no technical content. A PhD 
in Biology, Microbiology, Geology or other related professional field is not 
required since to my knowledge, only one person BLM-NM has one. The SWR has 
about a dozen.

Let me be absolutely clear: I have been a vocal critic of the CBD since it 
became apparent that they were patently uninterested in facts, logic, or 
science. When first I read their draft of the WNS suit I responded positively, 
as a scientist (with as strong a background in biology as geology), and tried 
to point out, point by point, weaknesses in their analysis, all of which were 
ignored and remained uncorrected in their final document. An examination of the 
degrees held by their staff revealed the likely reason - lots of lawyers and 
few staff with a good science background (BS's hardly qualify, unless 
accompanied by decades of experience). From what I can gather, they are more 
concerned with keeping up their income than with science, and without a sound 
footing in science, concerns about biological diversity come across as window 
dressing. And I have been acutely disappointed in the readiness with which BLM, 
USFS and NPS have seemed to sign on to the CBD platform rather than countering 
with good science and better data and logic. But it is certainly not clear to 
me (and it seems some several others) that the FOIA request is the best way to 
accomplish this. Is there no way that the conniving and misrepresentation of 
the CBD can't be brought to the attention of the broader community of 
ecologically concerned individuals, on whose continued support the group 
depends for credibility? How can these arguments be presented on the Internet, 
so that when one searches CBD one finds as many criticisms as self-serving 
claims of helping save the planet?

If you have a better way to obtain a BLM response to justify their actions, 
both with WNS/cave closure and with CBD, please make your knowledge available. 
Until a better idea is presented (we’ve gone 3+ years without one), please do 
not criticize the action taken. Letters to BLM have been ignored, verbal 
requests at BLM meetings have been ignored, BLM/SWR meeting schedules have been 
ignored, and emails to BLM have been ignored. 

We have no magic wand to wave to make things happen.

It may be that the FOIA is not the best method of eliciting a response from 
BLM, but until someone can come up with a better plan instead of simply 
castigating the one taken, it is superi

texascavers Digest 6 Jun 2014 15:35:02 -0000 Issue 1991

[texascavers-digest-help]

texascavers Digest 6 Jun 2014 15:35:02 - Issue 1991

Topics (messages 23913 through 23921):

Re: June 6st Presentation Info
23913 by: Geary Schindel

Scientists Find Bat Feared Extinct
23914 by: Lee H. Skinner

consumer tip for cavers
23915 by: David

Easy donating to the TCMA on Amazon.com
23916 by: Stefan Creaser
23920 by: Charles Goldsmith

Pepcid radio commercial ?
23917 by: David

Bustamante Survey
23918 by: Espeleo Coahuila

Re: Bustamante related
23919 by: David

House for sale in south Austin caver hood
23921 by: Jim Kennedy

Administrivia:

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--
--- Begin Message ---

Folks,

Just to clarify, Chris will be making a slide presentation about the Holocaust 
era cave story and will not be showing a film. He is an excellent speaker and 
I’m sure you’ll appreciate the presentation.

Geary


From: Geary Schindel
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 3:13 PM
To: 'Geary Schindel'
Subject: FW: June 6st Presentation Info

Chris asked me to forward this various list servers. I saw Chris speak and show 
the film at the National Speleological Society convention last year in 
Shippensburg, Pennsylvania and it was outstanding. Here is a rare opportunity 
to see the film in Boerne (San Antonio area).

Hi Everyone,

On Friday, June 6st I'll be giving a 8:00 PM presentation in the San Antonio, 
Texas area about the Holocaust era cave survival story featured in my book, The 
Secret of Priest's Grotto and the associated documentary, No Place On Earth 
(www.noplaceonearthfilm.com). Admission $20 
plus tax at door. Please contact Thomas Summers 
(t...@cavewithoutaname.com) at Cave Without A 
Name (325 Kreutzberg Rd. Boerne, TX 78006) for additional details. Please 
arrive at least 15 to 30 minutes in advance.

Regards,
Chris

Chris Nicola
chrisnic...@juno.com
Www.chrisnicola.com
Www.priestsgrotto.com
"I am in part all that I have seen and met" (Tennyson, from the poem Ulysses)
<>--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Researchers studying bats in Papua New Guinea came across a long-lost 
friend in their nets: a female identified as a New Guinea big-eared bat, 
reports /Scientific American/ 
. 
It's noteworthy because no specimen has been seen in 124 years, and the 
species was feared to be extinct. Now that a positive ID has been made, 
researchers plan to return to the area to look for more and add to the 
scant knowledge of the creature. The bad news: The female found was 
"ethically euthanized" after it was caught, the Australian researchers 
write in the /Conversation/ 
, 
so we'll hope she wasn't the last of her kind. Assuming more exist, the 
big-eared bats might be in trouble anyway because of how quickly local 
rainforests are being cleared to make room for development and 
agriculture, say the researchers. The same applies to other microbats 
and creatures of all kinds. "Who knows what other species are out 
there?" they write. "If we're not careful, they might be gone before we 
can find them." Adds John Platt of /Scientific American/: "We may not 
have another 120 years to save this rediscovered species."
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you are ever in need of some "free" heavy duty cardboard boxes to
pack your caving
books, or store something in the closet, I have found a place that regularly
has such an item.

It is a store called Batteries+.   They ship batteries in boxes, so
the boxes have to
be rugged.For some crazy reason, they throw away excellent boxes.

They even sell some things you might find useful such as flashlights
and batteries, although their prices are higher than the big discount
stores.

While I have your attention,

I have been spending most of my spare time
the past week or so on Linkedin.This place on the web appears to be
picking up steam, and I see lots of people at least trying it, or have just
signed up for an account.I have not yet made enough money using it
to justify the
time spent, but it seems productive for someone who is trying to market
their job skills, in a way far better than other services on the
Internet.  I did
receive a phone call yesterday from a prospective employer, that I was only
able to reach via their Linkedin page, and a few hours later, we exchanged
a cell-phone text-message.  That
process would have taken weeks back in the 20th Century.

Also,

I sure do want to attend the big party on Saturday, because I have been living

[Texascavers] House for sale in south Austin caver hood

[Jim Kennedy]

409 Ramble Lane, just around the corner from Mockingbird. Listed at $171,000. 
4/1. Details at zillow.com. 

This has been a public service announcement. 

Crash

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