Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Jim Evatt nailed it.: Our beloved Rio Grande

[Michael Gibbons]

Get a rope

On Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 4:00 PM Geary Schindel 
wrote:

> I’ll see if I can weight in and make some sense. My understanding is that
> water below Del Rio and the Falcon Reservoir are used for irrigation in the
> lower Rio Grande Valley. In some very dry years, there is insufficient
> water to meet all the irrigation demands and that the Rio Grande doesn’t
> make it all the way to the gulf. There are claims that Mexico isn’t
> honoring their IBWC agreement to discharge water from dams on the Rio
> Conchos River to sustain demand in the lower valley. We have an agreement
> to discharge water from the Lower Colorado into Mexico. Turns out that the
> area between the US/Mexico border south of Nogales is an important
> vegetable growing area in Mexico so very little if any water makes it to
> the Gulf of California.
>
>
>
> This is a lot of detailed literature available on the subject which is
> worth looking into.
>
>
>
> Geary
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* swrcav...@googlegroups.com  *On
> Behalf Of *Robert Wood
> *Sent:* Monday, September 17, 2018 3:21 PM
> *To:* Ormsby, Matthew A 
> *Cc:* Dwight Deal ; John Corcoran III <
> john_j_corcoran_...@msn.com>; Lee Skinner ; Evatt <
> nmca...@centurylink.net>; Cave Texas ; Cave
> NM 
> *Subject:* Re: [SWR CAVERS] Jim Evatt nailed it.: Our beloved Rio Grande
>
>
>
> Mathew,
>
>
>
> I am so glad you weighed in and offered such an awesome perspective. I
> wonder what Texas is doing with the Rio Grande water that is flowing south
> out of NM right now? I am super uninformed about Texas hydrology and you
> along with others in this stream have aided me in becoming more informed.
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> This topic, as we all have mentioned is super complex dating back to the
> mid 1800’s. The challenge we all face is that being  complex (and
> convoluted) cannot be allowed to cloud out manageability and conflict
> dispute resolution. Water is by far the topic most in need of being
> addressed across the globe. A great book on the subject is “The Big Thirst”
> by Charles Fishman.
>
>
>
> My challenge is, how to get my sailboat out of Elephant Butte if it goes
> much lower. Life is an adventure or nothing at all. :-)
>
>
>
> Rob
>
>
>
> On Sep 17, 2018, at 1:23 PM, Ormsby, Matthew A <
> matthew.orm...@usoncology.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Rob,
>
>
>
> I wasn’t going to post anything but I think there’s a tremendous
> misconception about the Rio Grande in Texas. Probably the one thing I do
> more often than cave is paddle rivers so I have some perspective of West
> Texas waterways that’s unique. A month ago I took a group of scouts
> upstream into Santa Elena Canyon on a canoe assisted hike. If you call Big
> Bend, it’s usually advertised as such. In sections of the canyon the water
> was no more than 2 inches deep. The canyon is a pool and drop just like the
> Pecos and Devil’s River so it pools up, gets deep and drops over a ledge
> that’s usually fairly shallow. I’ve paddled the entire Big Bend From Santa
> Elena all the way through Boquilla’s on several different trips at
> different times of the year and in different years. When the Rio Grande is
> deep in Texas, it’s because of rain in Texas and Mexico, not from water
> coming from New Mexico (generally speaking). The West Gulf RFC website
> displays river gauges that demonstrate as much if you check them often and
> know what you’re looking at. The Rio below Santa Elena gets deeper due to
> numerous hot springs and creeks but they are dependent on rainfall as well.
> A decade ago a Mexican dam crested and the entire Big Bend was flooded,
> again, not from New Mexico and snowmelt but from the Rio Conchos and a
> hurricane that filled their lake. What should be noted is Lake Amistad gets
> its water from the Rio Grande AND the Pecos River AND the Devil’s River.
>
>
>
> Now take everything I’ve said about the Rio Grande and put the name Pecos
> in its place, Texas gets virtually NO water coming down the Pecos River.
> Most of it is impounded upstream ending in Red Bluff lake on the boarder.
> If you’ve driven from Monahans to Pecos it’s not uncommon to see it dry on
> both sides of the highway. The Pecos and Devils have numerous springs that
> add tremendous volume during their last 60 miles (46 for the devils),
> completely dependent on rainfall. Right now, all 3 rivers are at high
> volumes due to the amount of rain we’ve had over the past several weeks
> south of I-10. I’m itching to take my boats out because the best trips are
> riding the tail ends of flash floods. The rivers can gain 30 feet in height
> in the lower canyons in under an hour but they usually drop to normal
> levels within days.
>
>
>
> 5 years ago my brother and I paddled the devils river on the tail end of a
> flash flood all the way into Amistad. It’s a 46 mile trip with 12 miles of
> lake paddling (really hard into the wind paddling). Well, we got to mile 34
> and started our canoe assisted hike because Amistad was so low the lake,
> which should 

Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Jim Evatt nailed it.: Our beloved Rio Grande

[Geary Schindel]

I’ll see if I can weight in and make some sense. My understanding is that water 
below Del Rio and the Falcon Reservoir are used for irrigation in the lower Rio 
Grande Valley. In some very dry years, there is insufficient water to meet all 
the irrigation demands and that the Rio Grande doesn’t make it all the way to 
the gulf. There are claims that Mexico isn’t honoring their IBWC agreement to 
discharge water from dams on the Rio Conchos River to sustain demand in the 
lower valley. We have an agreement to discharge water from the Lower Colorado 
into Mexico. Turns out that the area between the US/Mexico border south of 
Nogales is an important vegetable growing area in Mexico so very little if any 
water makes it to the Gulf of California.

This is a lot of detailed literature available on the subject which is worth 
looking into.

Geary



From: swrcav...@googlegroups.com  On Behalf Of 
Robert Wood
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2018 3:21 PM
To: Ormsby, Matthew A 
Cc: Dwight Deal ; John Corcoran III 
; Lee Skinner ; Evatt 
; Cave Texas ; Cave NM 

Subject: Re: [SWR CAVERS] Jim Evatt nailed it.: Our beloved Rio Grande

Mathew,

I am so glad you weighed in and offered such an awesome perspective. I wonder 
what Texas is doing with the Rio Grande water that is flowing south out of NM 
right now? I am super uninformed about Texas hydrology and you along with 
others in this stream have aided me in becoming more informed. Thank you.

This topic, as we all have mentioned is super complex dating back to the mid 
1800’s. The challenge we all face is that being  complex (and convoluted) 
cannot be allowed to cloud out manageability and conflict dispute resolution. 
Water is by far the topic most in need of being addressed across the globe. A 
great book on the subject is “The Big Thirst” by Charles Fishman.

My challenge is, how to get my sailboat out of Elephant Butte if it goes much 
lower. Life is an adventure or nothing at all. :-)

Rob


On Sep 17, 2018, at 1:23 PM, Ormsby, Matthew A 
mailto:matthew.orm...@usoncology.com>> wrote:

Rob,

I wasn’t going to post anything but I think there’s a tremendous misconception 
about the Rio Grande in Texas. Probably the one thing I do more often than cave 
is paddle rivers so I have some perspective of West Texas waterways that’s 
unique. A month ago I took a group of scouts upstream into Santa Elena Canyon 
on a canoe assisted hike. If you call Big Bend, it’s usually advertised as 
such. In sections of the canyon the water was no more than 2 inches deep. The 
canyon is a pool and drop just like the Pecos and Devil’s River so it pools up, 
gets deep and drops over a ledge that’s usually fairly shallow. I’ve paddled 
the entire Big Bend From Santa Elena all the way through Boquilla’s on several 
different trips at different times of the year and in different years. When the 
Rio Grande is deep in Texas, it’s because of rain in Texas and Mexico, not from 
water coming from New Mexico (generally speaking). The West Gulf RFC website 
displays river gauges that demonstrate as much if you check them often and know 
what you’re looking at. The Rio below Santa Elena gets deeper due to numerous 
hot springs and creeks but they are dependent on rainfall as well. A decade ago 
a Mexican dam crested and the entire Big Bend was flooded, again, not from New 
Mexico and snowmelt but from the Rio Conchos and a hurricane that filled their 
lake. What should be noted is Lake Amistad gets its water from the Rio Grande 
AND the Pecos River AND the Devil’s River.

Now take everything I’ve said about the Rio Grande and put the name Pecos in 
its place, Texas gets virtually NO water coming down the Pecos River. Most of 
it is impounded upstream ending in Red Bluff lake on the boarder. If you’ve 
driven from Monahans to Pecos it’s not uncommon to see it dry on both sides of 
the highway. The Pecos and Devils have numerous springs that add tremendous 
volume during their last 60 miles (46 for the devils), completely dependent on 
rainfall. Right now, all 3 rivers are at high volumes due to the amount of rain 
we’ve had over the past several weeks south of I-10. I’m itching to take my 
boats out because the best trips are riding the tail ends of flash floods. The 
rivers can gain 30 feet in height in the lower canyons in under an hour but 
they usually drop to normal levels within days.

5 years ago my brother and I paddled the devils river on the tail end of a 
flash flood all the way into Amistad. It’s a 46 mile trip with 12 miles of lake 
paddling (really hard into the wind paddling). Well, we got to mile 34 and 
started our canoe assisted hike because Amistad was so low the lake, which 
should have backfilled to that point, was 20 feet low. We walked our canoe 10 
miles in a foot or less of water until we made it into the lake. Amistad has 
since mostly filled due to rain south of I-10.

And I guess that’s the point, when Amistad is full, it’s because of rain in 
South West Texas. If Texas 

Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Jim Evatt nailed it.: Our beloved Rio Grande

[jerryatkin]

Almost no water from the Rio Grande above its confluence with the Rio Concho 
(from Mexico), makes it to Big Bend. There are many miles of dry river bed 
where it used to flow. Almost all water that you paddle in the canyons of Big 
Bend comes from the Rio Concho, which is heavily polluted at times. We had a 
river trip one time in Santa Elena Canyon, and folks that swam in the river got 
some serious rashes from the industrial runoff. 

Jerry.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 17, 2018, at 2:21 PM, Robert Wood  wrote:
> 
> Mathew,
> 
> I am so glad you weighed in and offered such an awesome perspective. I wonder 
> what Texas is doing with the Rio Grande water that is flowing south out of NM 
> right now? I am super uninformed about Texas hydrology and you along with 
> others in this stream have aided me in becoming more informed. Thank you.
> 
> This topic, as we all have mentioned is super complex dating back to the mid 
> 1800’s. The challenge we all face is that being  complex (and convoluted) 
> cannot be allowed to cloud out manageability and conflict dispute resolution. 
> Water is by far the topic most in need of being addressed across the globe. A 
> great book on the subject is “The Big Thirst” by Charles Fishman.
> 
> My challenge is, how to get my sailboat out of Elephant Butte if it goes much 
> lower. Life is an adventure or nothing at all. :-)
> 
> Rob
> 
>> On Sep 17, 2018, at 1:23 PM, Ormsby, Matthew A 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Rob, 
>>  
>> I wasn’t going to post anything but I think there’s a tremendous 
>> misconception about the Rio Grande in Texas. Probably the one thing I do 
>> more often than cave is paddle rivers so I have some perspective of West 
>> Texas waterways that’s unique. A month ago I took a group of scouts upstream 
>> into Santa Elena Canyon on a canoe assisted hike. If you call Big Bend, it’s 
>> usually advertised as such. In sections of the canyon the water was no more 
>> than 2 inches deep. The canyon is a pool and drop just like the Pecos and 
>> Devil’s River so it pools up, gets deep and drops over a ledge that’s 
>> usually fairly shallow. I’ve paddled the entire Big Bend From Santa Elena 
>> all the way through Boquilla’s on several different trips at different times 
>> of the year and in different years. When the Rio Grande is deep in Texas, 
>> it’s because of rain in Texas and Mexico, not from water coming from New 
>> Mexico (generally speaking). The West Gulf RFC website displays river gauges 
>> that demonstrate as much if you check them often and know what you’re 
>> looking at. The Rio below Santa Elena gets deeper due to numerous hot 
>> springs and creeks but they are dependent on rainfall as well. A decade ago 
>> a Mexican dam crested and the entire Big Bend was flooded, again, not from 
>> New Mexico and snowmelt but from the Rio Conchos and a hurricane that filled 
>> their lake. What should be noted is Lake Amistad gets its water from the Rio 
>> Grande AND the Pecos River AND the Devil’s River.
>>  
>> Now take everything I’ve said about the Rio Grande and put the name Pecos in 
>> its place, Texas gets virtually NO water coming down the Pecos River. Most 
>> of it is impounded upstream ending in Red Bluff lake on the boarder. If 
>> you’ve driven from Monahans to Pecos it’s not uncommon to see it dry on both 
>> sides of the highway. The Pecos and Devils have numerous springs that add 
>> tremendous volume during their last 60 miles (46 for the devils), completely 
>> dependent on rainfall. Right now, all 3 rivers are at high volumes due to 
>> the amount of rain we’ve had over the past several weeks south of I-10. I’m 
>> itching to take my boats out because the best trips are riding the tail ends 
>> of flash floods. The rivers can gain 30 feet in height in the lower canyons 
>> in under an hour but they usually drop to normal levels within days.
>>  
>> 5 years ago my brother and I paddled the devils river on the tail end of a 
>> flash flood all the way into Amistad. It’s a 46 mile trip with 12 miles of 
>> lake paddling (really hard into the wind paddling). Well, we got to mile 34 
>> and started our canoe assisted hike because Amistad was so low the lake, 
>> which should have backfilled to that point, was 20 feet low. We walked our 
>> canoe 10 miles in a foot or less of water until we made it into the lake. 
>> Amistad has since mostly filled due to rain south of I-10. 
>>  
>> And I guess that’s the point, when Amistad is full, it’s because of rain in 
>> South West Texas. If Texas is in drought Amistad is directly affected. That 
>> water is very consistently released from Amistad downstream to Falcon Lake 
>> and from Falcon to the gulf. A very small amount is coming from the Rio 
>> Grande North of Presidio and the water that Texas is fighting for is mostly 
>> consumed by farmers South of El Paso to Esperanza.
>>  
>> Southwest Paddler maintains a website which highlights paddling the Rio 
>> Grande and other Texas rivers that many 

Re: [Texascavers] Mud Wrestling at TCR

[Jim Kennedy]

TCR will reimburse the cost of the wrestling clay if someone turns in the 
receipt to me at TCR. 

Jim

Mobile email from my iPhone

> On Sep 17, 2018, at 12:45 PM, Galen Falgout  wrote:
> 
> As some of you may know, I am working in Colorado until just days before TCR. 
> I am in need of assistance with the mud pit as I may not have time to get it 
> all together in time before TCR. I need help with the following...
> 
> Someone picking up the mud clay at armadillo clay in east Austin. “TCR 
> usually reimburses” Crash? Is it in the budget this year??
> 
> Needing someone to load the pit which is stored at Drew Thompson’s house in 
> Deep South Austin “very near to Gills”.
> 
> Also, may need someone to haul the pit out to TCR. It is not heavy at all, as 
> it is all just foam and pvc materials. Compared to the cooks trailer, But it 
> is bulky! Would fill up the bed of a full size truck. There may be a small 
> trailer available “I think?!?!?” We can use also. 
> 
>Thanks,
> Galen P. Falgout 
>Texas Caver 
> ___
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> Texascavers@texascavers.com | Archives: 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/
> http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers
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[Texascavers] Mud Wrestling at TCR

[Galen Falgout]

As some of you may know, I am working in Colorado until just days before
TCR. I am in need of assistance with the mud pit as I may not have time to
get it all together in time before TCR. I need help with the following...

Someone picking up the mud clay at armadillo clay in east Austin. “TCR
usually reimburses” Crash? Is it in the budget this year??

Needing someone to load the pit which is stored at Drew Thompson’s house in
Deep South Austin “very near to Gills”.

Also, may need someone to haul the pit out to TCR. It is not heavy at all,
as it is all just foam and pvc materials. Compared to the cooks trailer,
But it is bulky! Would fill up the bed of a full size truck. There may be a
small trailer available “I think?!?!?” We can use also.

   Thanks,
Galen P. Falgout
   Texas Caver
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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Jim Evatt nailed it.: Our beloved Rio Grande

[Dwight Deal]

Hi Rob:

I did not mean to diminish the seriousness of the problem.  My major point is 
that it is much more complicated than most people realize, including some of 
those who are trying to grapple with the issue.  Basically, too many people and 
not enough water.  It is hard to change that.

You said:

“ Thanks for highlighting the evapotranspiration from stored water reservoirs  
and I must include flooding of fields to irrigate.”

That is a good point.  For some reason I never thought carefully about the 
irrigated fields giving up significant amounts of water by evapotranspiration.  
Of course they do.

I have never been intimately involved with the New Mexico - Colorado - Texas 
water wars.  Mostly with the IBWC (International Boundary and Water Commission) 
and the conflicts between the US (primarily Texas) and Mexico (Rio Conchos and 
Rio Grande through the Big Bend and the Lower Canyons), which is screwy enough. 
 I did spend a couple of years (mid 1960s) north of Silver City where the 
controversy then was if wells in the floodplain could be construed as "taking" 
water from the Gila.

When I came back to Colorado I found that harvesting rainwater from roofs is 
illegal, where we do it all the time in West Texas.  Consistency of water laws!

So the water I see coming down the Rio Grande from El Paso now is just on the 
conveyor belt to Amistad! 

I did not fully realize that.

Dwight


> On September 17, 2018 at 10:07 AM Robert Wood  wrote:
> 
> Thanks for highlighting the evapotranspiration from stored water 
> reservoirs  and I must include flooding of fields to irrigate. These are 
> major.
> 
> Regardless to what the article misrepresents we have a serious problem in 
> the Rio Grande and in the Colorado River Drainage. At the NM Water Conference 
> held two years ago in Silver City a proposed diversion of the Gila to benefit 
> parts of Arizona was covered. With the climate warming The Gila and then 
> Silver City will be seriously affected because warmer weather means less 
> ground soaking snow melt and more just direct short term runoff so Gila 
> related aquifers that rare used for pumping municipal wells are not 
> recharging. Silver City is already engaged in a water treatment and recharge 
> system putting water back into their aquifer.
> 
> I took a raft trip this past spring with the Save The Colorado group on 
> the Yampa down through Dinosaur National Monument. The Yampa is one of the 
> headwaters of the Colorado that is the only free flowing part left. I have 
> friends that are multi generational ranchers at the upper reaches of the 
> Yampa that years ago gave me a lesson in senior water rights. 
> 
> Denver wants to create a diversion of the Yampa that would cross over the 
> Continental Divide and dump into the North Platte. This is so insane when one 
> looks at the state of Glenn Canyon and Lake Powell. There is no extra or 
> spare water. Right now there is a small amount Mexico is letting out that 
> flows into the Sea of Cortez but this is only a short term political move to 
> influence the uninformed into believing there is extra water. 
> 
> The present Supreme Court Case being argued on interstate water, NM vs 
> Texas, is an interesting case to read as to meeting water compact obligations 
> and the effects of taking upper level aquifer water via shallow wells being 
> used to irrigate south of Elephant Butte Dam. I am sure the NM State Water 
> Conference at NMSU next month will go into the effects of this in greater 
> detail. Texas water is gauged either at the Elephant Butte or Percha Dam 
> upstream of the irrigated fields to the south.
> 
>  From my understanding the cause of the extreme low level of Elephant 
> Butte is partially due to water Texas taking their water that used to be left 
> in it that Texas owned because they did not necessarily need it so left it 
> for us for recreation. Obviously the multi year lack of runoff upstream was a 
> mitigating factor compounded by Texas taking what is rightfully theirs this 
> year.  It may appear that with water still flowing out of Elephant Butte that 
> Mesilla Valley farmers are getting water. They are not as this year EBID only 
> had two water periods in their diversions. All the water we have seen for 
> months in the Rio Grande is going to Texas and not being used. It is 
> justifiably theirs though.
> 
>  I have not heard anything on Mexico’s claims as to whether they are 
> being met or not. I would really appreciate information on that.
> 
> Rob Wood
> 
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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Jim Evatt nailed it.: Our beloved Rio Grande

[John Corcoran III]

Thanks Dwight!  It is always useful to have some real data and analysis to 
calibrate articles like Parker wrote.

Regards,

John


From: swrcav...@googlegroups.com  On Behalf Of 
Dwight Deal
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2018 12:23 PM
To: Lee Skinner ; Linda Starr ; Evatt 
; 1-Dwight 
Cc: RGVBB Google Group ; Cave 
Texas ; Cave NM 
Subject: [SWR CAVERS] Jim Evatt nailed it.: Our beloved Rio Grande


Jim Evatt nailed it.  Learn why after reviewing his comments.

But that is only part of a complicated situation.

---

Evattmailto:nmca...@centurylink.net>>

7:39 PM

Via  swrcavers mailto:swrcav...@googlegroups.com>>

I would take this article with a grain of salt, or a lot of salt sprinkled 
freely around the rim of a large, full margarita glass.

Mr. Parker thinks the Yukon River is entirely within the US. Not true. He 
thinks the Rio Grande lies entirely within the US. Also untrue.

The New York Times should know better. They only care about selling copy, and 
most folks in New York doesn’t care a rat’s ass about NM or our river.

Jim Evatt

From: Linda Starr

Sent: September 15, 2018 5:55 PM

To: Lee Skinner

Cc: RGVBB Google Group ; swrcavers@googlegroups com

Subject: Re: [SWR CAVERS] Fwd: Our beloved Rio Grande is again in the 
news...Something to think about

---

The New York Times author has propagated a long-held old-wives tale.  I happen 
to know a lot about the flow in the Rio Grande, especially from El Paso through 
the Big Bend and downstream.  I have floated over 2,000 miles on the Rio Grande 
in repeated trips over many years.  I have been a river guide many times 
including floating in 1978 on the crest of a flood that had over 60 feet of 
water in the canyons. As a hydrologist I have studied it since 1967.

As Jim said: "The New York Times should know better."  For shame!

There are some important elements of truth in the story. It is important to 
understand that water in both the Rio Grande and the Colorado have been 
over-subscribed from the beginning of water management by the building of dams. 
 More water has been assumed to flow in the rivers than is actually the case.  
The effect of large open-water reservoirs is also very wasteful in arid and 
semi arid country.  It has been calculated that if all the large reservoirs (at 
least on the Colorado - Lake Mead and Lake Powell) were full in the summer, 
more water would be lost to evaporation than annually flows down of the river.  
 No wonder that "irrigation causes the rivers to dry up". is a common theme.  
But the idea that irrigation in New Mexico has caused the Rio Grande to dry up 
below El Paso is wrong.  It has simply made a chronic problem permanent.

Water laws in the West, as Rob Wood points out, are complicated and 
inconsistent. Not only are the laws inconsistent from state to state, both the 
Colorado and the Rio Grande are international waters and involve treaties with 
Mexico.  This raises the issue of conflicts between laws and water use between 
the two countries.   Water-ownership and allocation regimes have driven 
economic change. In the western United States, surface and groundwater were 
allocated according to the doctrine of “prior appropriation.” In Mexico, in 
contrast, water rights were federally held and allocated to institutions, 
companies and individuals.

These two modes of water ownership complicated the transition from Spanish and 
Mexican legal systems to the U.S. one. Dam building further complicated the 
issues with the construction of Boulder and Hoover Dams on the Colorado River, 
Elephant Butte (1916) on the Rio Grande and its sister dam, La Boquilla (1916), 
on the Rio Conchos.

Further reading for those interested is Conservation of Shared Environments: 
Learning from the United States and Mexico by Laura Lopez-Hoffman, Emily D. 
McGovern, Robert G. Varady.

The tone of New York Times article is very definitely misleading in the 
impression that it gives of the annual flows in the river, stating that 
irrigation is the root cause of no flow in the Rio Grande in southern New 
Mexico and west Texas. The same is true for other publications, including the 
one above which does not treat the history of the flows between El Paso and Big 
Bend correctly.

In 1978 I wrote a study of the river flow that still stands as a definitive 
work:

Deal, D. E., 1978, "Evolution of the Rio Conchos—Rio Grande Drainage Basins of 
Northern Mexico and West Texas," A. W. Walton, and C. D. Henry, eds., Cenozoic 
Geology of the Trans-Pecos Volcanic Field of Texas, Conference Proceedings and 
Guidebook, Alpine, Texas, May 21-25; reprinted as Bureau of Economic Geology 
Guidebook 19, University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas, p. 137-146.

Excerpted from page 139 of that report"

The modern Rio Grande between Presidio and McNary (about