[Texascavers] fools
Louise Power writes: A wise man once said, It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. Louise I hate this saying. If a person wants to learn something, they need to open their mouth and ask question. Not sit around like a lump on a log and then after a few years think that they know what's going on because they showed up for a while. Better to be thought a fool for a while, than to be a fool forever. Philip Moss philipm...@juno.com Penny Stock Jumping 3000% Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4dd582211fb8d508139st05vuc
[Texascavers] fools
Louise Power writes: A wise man once said, It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. Louise I hate this saying. If a person wants to learn something, they need to open their mouth and ask question. Not sit around like a lump on a log and then after a few years think that they know what's going on because they showed up for a while. Better to be thought a fool for a while, than to be a fool forever. Philip Moss philipm...@juno.com Penny Stock Jumping 3000% Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4dd582211fb8d508139st05vuc
[Texascavers] fools
Louise Power writes: A wise man once said, It is better to keep silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. Louise I hate this saying. If a person wants to learn something, they need to open their mouth and ask question. Not sit around like a lump on a log and then after a few years think that they know what's going on because they showed up for a while. Better to be thought a fool for a while, than to be a fool forever. Philip Moss philipm...@juno.com Penny Stock Jumping 3000% Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4dd582211fb8d508139st05vuc
Re: [Texascavers] Carbon Dioxide and Low Oxygen in Texas Caves.
In my experience, CO2 and radon, or more accurately radon daughters, concentrate together. Both tend to be higher in caves during the summer if the caves do not have a significant chimney effect wind. As a rule, if CO2 is thought to be an issue occasionally in a cave, go in the winter and the colder outside the better. Philip L. Moss philipm...@juno.com On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 16:00:23 -0700 Louise Power writes: When I worked at Carlsbad Caverns NP in the late 70s, our cave tech Kay Rohde, checked the CO2 and the radon every day. In the summertime when visitation was high, CO2 was high (big surprise!). When CO2 was high, radon was high. snip Louise $13/Month Car Insurance? Insurance deal just passed now allows you to get car insurance for $13 http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4c16b9d946846a925fm01vuc
Re: [Texascavers] carbide vs LED (attempt 2)
Mark Alman wrote: Wow, after reading all of these near-death incidents caused by or around carbide, it makes me wonder why anyone would consider not switching to 100% LED use! Mark Well, I could quibble about whether or not carbide caused all the incidents or whether the propane leak might have been a cause. An accident is what happens when the immutable laws of physics are ignored. - Ambrose Bierce But what about all the deaths carbide lights have prevented? I can think of a few trips personally where the carbide lamps were the only indication of high CO2/low O2. More than once I have rappelled into bad air and knew almost immediately by the response of my carbide lamp. The most recent time was less than a year ago. No LED light will tell you that. For those of you who don't have much experience with low O2 in caves, it can be highly stratified in caves. I have had my head in 15% 02 while at my feet it was 9% (I had a meter that day). OSHA forbids working in atmospheres below 18% O2, if memory serves. At 9%, one passes out very quickly. Imagine you are rappelling into a stratified atmosphere similar to this one. How slowly are you rapelling and how are you going to notice the changes in air quality? Changing over on rope in bad air is very difficult in my experience even if the air quality is significantly better than 9% O2; low O2 makes one stupid (temporarily, I am led to believe). Cap lamps mark stations well with removable, relatively benign marks and will mark on relatively wet surfaces. A cap lamp can be made completely nonmagnetic, is easily removable so that one can read instruments without having yet another piece of equipment to bring into the cave. They work and are durable. I have used a cap lamp since I started caving in 1971. I have tried electrics over the years from time to time and currently own an Apex. I still have yet to find one I trust to last. My Apex leaks if I put under water and sooner or later it will corrode and quit working from that or some other reason that I will fail to understand. I have dropped a cap lamp down a 90 foot pit; it had a minor ding and I was able to continue using it for many more years and still have it in working order. The Autolite I am using is probably more than 50 years old. With very low tech maintenance, there is nothing that will go wrong with it that I cannot fix without tools in the cave. And it will probably go another 50 years with a reasonable amount of care (which is more than I can say for me). Do you think that any of the individual lights in use today will still useable in 20 years? And if not, what does this say for the likelihood that they will fail while you are depending on them? How many times have you been on a trip where an electric light has completely failed? I have seen it frequently. So far, I have not seen a Stenlight fail, but I have seen several Apex fail and high number of Petzel products. But Stenlights, while very bright are also very magnetic and pretty expensive. Carbides are still not very good for diving I will grant, but with a little knowledge, they stand up to long-term immersion quite well. I will also grant they have real drawbacks on multi-day in cave camps. And there is a learning curve that appears to be a bit much for some people. And the USDOT has made it relatively expensive to buy carbide. However, I no longer encourage new people to use carbide lamps. I do think that a durable enough LED light for a reasonable price is not far off. But I think there are some real advantages in having some of us around (OK, so I am not around you in particular) who still know and use the old technologies. And most of us don't bring CO2 meters caving. Philip L. Moss philipm...@juno.com PS If any of you know why my emails occasionally look like Chinese characters when I use the reply function and can tell me how to prevent the font switch without the simple expedient of never using reply, I would appreciate the advice off line. Six Sigma Certification Villanova Six Sigma Certification 100% Online Program - Free Info. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4c14db61d6027a01efm01vuc
[Texascavers] carbide vs LED
Mark.Alman writes: Wow, after reading all of these near-death incidents caused by or around carbide, it makes me wonder why anyone would consider not switching to 100% LED use! Mark Well, I could quibble about whether or not carbide caused all the incidents or whether say the propane leak might have been a cause? An accident is what happens when the immutable laws of physics are ignored. - Ambrose Bierce But what about all the deaths carbide has prevented? I can think of a few trips personally where the carbide lamps were the only indication of high CO2/low O2. More than once I have rappelled into bad air and knew almost immediately by the response of my carbide lamp. The most recent time was less than a year ago. No LED light will tell you that. For those of you who don't have much experience with low O2 in caves, it can be highly stratified in caves. I have had my head in 15% 02 while at my feet it was 9% (I had a meter that day). OSHA forbids working in atmospheres below 18% O2, if memory serves. At 9%, one passes out very quickly. Imagine you are rappelling into a stratified atmosphere similar to this one. How slowly are you rapelling and how are you going to notice the changes in air quality? Changing over in bad air is very difficult in my experience even if the air quality is significantly better than 9% O2; low O2 makes one stupid (temporarily, I am led to believe). Cap lamps mark stations well with removable, relatively benign marks and will mark on relatively wet surfaces. A cap lamp can be made completely nonmagnetic, is easily removable so that one can read instruments without having yet another piece of equipment to bring into the cave. They work and are durable. I have used a cap lamp since I started caving in 1971. I have tried electrics over the years from time to time and currently own an Apex. I still have yet to find one I trust to last. My Apex leaks if I put under water and sooner or later it will corrode and quit working from that or some other reason that I will fail to understand. I have dropped a cap lamp down a 90 foot pit; it had a minor ding and I was able to continue using it for many more years and still have it in working order. The Autolite I am using is probably more than 50 years old. With very low tech maintenance, there is nothing that will go wrong with it that I cannot fix without tools in the cave. And it will probably go another 50 years with a reasonable amount of care (which is more than I can say for me). Do you think that any of the individual lights in use today will still useable in 20 years? How many times have you been on a trip where an electric light has completely failed? I have seen it frequently. So far, I have not seen a Stenlight fail, but I have seen several Apex fail and high number of Petzel products. But Stenlights, while very bright are also very magnetic and pretty expensive. Carbides are still not very good for diving I will grant, but with a little knowledge, they stand up to long-term immersion quite well. I will also grant they have real drawbacks on multi-day in cave camps. And there is a learning curve that appears to be a bit much for some people. However, I no longer encourage new people to use carbide lamps. I do think that a durable enough LED light for a reasonable price is not far off. But I think there are some real advantages in having some of us around (OK, so I am not around you in particular) who still know and use the old technologies. And most of us don't bring CO2 meters caving. Philip L. Moss philipm...@juno.com Penny Stock Jumping 2000% Sign up to the #1 voted penny stock newsletter for free today! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4c12b218308a19873dm01vuc
[Texascavers] NSS Election related rant
Herman and anyone else considering running for the BOG at some point: A successful run is based almost entirely on name recognition and I mean that literally. They don't have to know you and in some cases, it is better for your election chances if they don't. There is a famous caver/author who has always won when he has run for the BOG. As far as I know, those who know him don't vote for him, those who have only heard of him do. And during one term, he didn't bother showing up and we now have a rule named after him requiring Directors to attend meetings occasionally or lose their seat. He also had more motions die for a lack of a second than any other person I served with by far. He was and is politically unskilled and ineffective, but highly electable. What is my point? The members tend to vote and then not pay attention to what the Board is doing, much less what individuals are doing on the Board. And the Board encourages that by only publishing the minutes. The minutes only record the votes. If you do not attend the meetings, you don't know why anyone voted the way they did. It may appear that they voted against mom and apple pie. And if discussions took place before the meeting, you won't learn that at the meeting. There are discussions via email that you, as members aren't allowed to read. The minutes are digitally recorded, but you, as members, aren't allowed to listen to them. They are destroyed after the minutes are accepted. They could be put on-line, but lawyers keep advising the Board they need to protect themselves from being held responsible for what they say during meetings. What director of the NSS wanted to turn down a cave property being donated to the NSS for free and supported by the local grotto because we don't need another bat cave? The owner gets a tax write-off and all we get is another cave we can't go in. The minutes show that he voted to accept the donation. It doesn't show that he didn't/doesn't understand that the second purpose of the NSS is to protect caves and their natural contents and had to be dragged to the correct position. And he would get reelected today if he were running. There are three incumbents running and another who has recent Board experience and not one of them tells us how we have benefited from their time on the Board or how they have been frustrated in their attempts to do good. They tell us goals, but no accomplishments. Are they running on their record? Of the three incumbents, I believe that only one ever made a substantiative motion. Why are they running? There are few Board groupies these days. There are no perks and the company leaves something to be desired. We have one candidate who is running on the platform that the Board is composed of lazy, incompetents. While I can't argue with that, how effective do you think he will be trying to work with them? And will the members hold him accountable if nothing changes after he is elected? So Herman, if you really want to get on the Board and are unsuccessful this time, there are a couple of avenues to pursue. One is committee service and not all committees are equal. High visibility committee chairs get more name recognition. Hosting a successful NSS Convention is a traditional approach, but not very practical for Texas for a while. There is one advantage to an unsuccessful run - if you have strong opinions, you get an annual, uncensored, but length limited platform to editorialize on cave and caver politics. After I came in dead last on my first run, that was my ambition - just to write an editorial each year as a campaign platform. But apparently, a few people liked my next one because I won the second year. In any case, I advise avoiding a bland platform. Most candidates sound interchangeable and uninformed. I am for conservation and education. Well, of course you are. But, what does that mean to you? Do we recruit nonmembers? How do we retain the old members who are dropping out of the NSS like flies? Or do we care? And do we actually try to educate our members or is making education an option as far as we need to go? There is almost no one running for NSS officers; they often run unopposed. Instead of a few hundred votes to get elected, you only need seven so you don't need name recognition among the membership. Of course, there are more meetings, and if you do your job, there is a lot more work. Unprecedented cave exploration, ultraconservation, and extreme liberal good fellowship - Greater Guano Grotto principle, reaffirmed 1966 END rant recovering speleopolitician, Philip L. Moss philipm...@juno.com On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 08:02:32 -0500 Geary Schindel gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org writes: Herman, Even if you aren�t elected to the NSS BOG in 2010, there are other ways to serve the NSS. Maybe you should go to the NSS Convention to find out what positions are open in the NSS structure and serve in one of those capacities. It is a great way
Re: [Texascavers] Caving Moratorium
On Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:51:28 -0500 Gill Ediger gi...@worldnet.att.net writes: Should we expect an influx of Eastern cavers visiting Texas caves because they're shut out of the cold, muddy ones back in the colonies? --Ediger I think that you will see an influx of Eastern cavers visiting Texas caves. My prediction is that they will start showing up in mid-July. ;-) Don't expect me to resist such an easy set up. Philip L. Moss philipm...@juno.com Looking for insurance? Compare and save today. Click here. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTInoKdeYp3oNzyHH1gWVUsX7SwpeIF9mWekjYICRBDsUk0so69G2c/ - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] RE: heaters for bats
On Fri, 6 Mar 2009 08:39:54 -0600 Nancy Weaver nan...@io.com writes: How on earth have bats managed to survive so long without thoughtful human intervention? Or any other part of nature? Good thing we can now remedy nature's poor planning. I wonder what the displacement factor in the production of the heater boxes is - ie how many bats or habitat does it cost environmentally to produce each of these things? Nancy I can only hope that I missed the point of this email. However, if the author is serious then the answer seems obvious to me. Nature did fine without us and natural systems have been altered severely by humans. In order to prevent some of the most extreme consequences of human action, such as anthropogenic causes of the extinction of species, then additional human intervention is required to counter other human intervention. As long as there is a significant human population, management is required. Whatever it may be called, land management, ecosystem management, or cave management, ultimately what is being managed is human behavior. A disclaimer: I have not read about the bat heaters and I am not commenting on that particular strategy. Philip L. Moss philipm...@juno.com Hit it out of the park with a new bat. Click now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTNfqHvZRK2P4ehx0w2gOed0bSn1nrVP0yJ1j7OBFiK0M245cwi8aU/
Re: [Texascavers] underground houses
In addition to Mixon's criticisms, there is always the issue of alpha radiation. All earth material tends to have some alpha radiation emitters (often more simply and misleadingly called radon). The more surfaces one has that are earth material (dirt, limestone, concrete), the more fresh air ventilation one needs to have healthy air. Is caving dangerous because of alpha radiation? In very few caves is it, because none of us spends that much time in caves. There are some western caves with some incredibly high alpha counts. Is mining dangerous because of the 40-hour work week exposure. No, because mines are ventilated with fresh air and the air quality is monitored. Is living underground without a lot of fresh air ventilation or even cooling your home or business with cave air a health hazard? Yes. Wait a minute, alpha radiation can't even penetrate your skin, so this is all BS. No, because the vector is from breathing in particles that are alpha emitters. Breathing in alpha emitters tends to produce lung cancer. High humidity promotes mold growth and overexposure to mold can cause other lung problems (personal experience and a visit to a pulmonologist). If such a home had any appliances, there would be waste heat that would help (enough for the summertime??) decrease the relative humidity. Natural thermal attenuation and moderation are wonderful things and this email should not be construed to say that they are not worth pursuing. However as with most things in life, the devil is in the details. Philip L. Moss philipm...@juno.com Compete with the big boys. Click here to find products to benefit your business. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTI97yP6P6YksmwUM1feXU7RurNtHLsWgBMdd3sgzhr9RKzpzgVcDe/
Re: [Texascavers] Re: NSS Business pages
Alex and all: Yes, this kind of ass-backwards thinking does get my blood pressure up. First, we would not be giving much away if the NSS Board followed it Acts and Policies (it would be nice if the Board was familiar with the same; they were not during my tenure). From Appendix L of the Board Manual (http://www.caves.org/nss-business/bog/Append-L.pdf): The NSS, as a guideline, shall not pay more than 10% over fair market value as documented by a credible appraisal. This is an IRS recommendation for non-profit corporations. If an organization is only willing to pay appraised value, then a negotiating position is not given away by having such in the public record. Secondly and more importantly, most of the NSS Business is not sensitive. However, the sensitive business is supposed to be conducted in closed session for which there are no minutes, published or otherwise. I tried to get a closed session policy adopted that included acquisition discussion and authorization as closed session business. However, the Board voted it down twice. Just because there is a perceived problem in one area, does not mean that it is to the NSS' advantage to hide all of our business. Doug Medville had a motion authorizing the NSS to spend up to $220,000 for an entrance to Great Ex (see http://www.caves.org/nss-business/minutes/oct02bog.html) and that was done without an appraisal. That certainly had a great deal of potential to undermine any potential negotiating potion. What if the property had been appraised and had come in at $45,000. Kind of hard for a landowner to walk away from that kind of money. Hiding our business pages is no substitute for good business practices or the ability to think critically. Philip L. Moss philipm...@juno.com Click here to find experienced pros to help with your home improvement project. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2eRIsJ8umxR8A1OKvcoqa7Jn9dFN8nUuulvi7Lhf6U4KeT9/
[Texascavers] NSS Business pages
Alex and all: I have to agree with Mixon on this one. Even if other organizations don't put their budget, agenda, and minutes online for the public to see, that is no reason for us not to do so. Personally, I find this a very tiresome argument. I often hear that we are the premier caving organization (and this in spite of the NSS used as a negative example of cave management by the US Fish and Wildlife service in the not-too-distant past). Does that mean we strive to be no better than other conservation organizations? There are three good reasons, in my opinion, for NSS business to be open to everyone. 1) Prospective members might want to check out what we actually do. How we spend our money is where the rubber meets the road. 2) As a 501(c)3, we are considered a tax-supported entity by the IRS and it is proper that the public be able to inspect our financial process and expenditures. 3) By not putting this information in an easily accessible place, it suggests that we have something to hide. It is also not much of a firewall. Anyone who knows an NSS member can pretty much put an NSS number with a corresponding zip code. Philip L. Moss philipm...@juno.com Take a break - you deserve it. Click here to find a great vacation. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2gGUy5R4DmwKiCczKyAtawUlKGVc5kGOldtStlhiKdKtxlt/ - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] book idea
On Tue, 2 Dec 2008 14:06:00 -0600 David dlocklea...@gmail.com writes: Here is a book idea for a caver looking to for ideas on writing a book. snip 1000 Caves I must explore before I die Or how about 1001 Cave critters I must see before I die I like, 1001 Speleothems I must see before I die David Perhaps these titles could be followed up by a book entitled: 1001 Caves Most Damaged by Cavers There are already enough places that have been loved to death by cavers. Philip L. Moss philipm...@juno.com Click here to find experienced pros to help with your home improvement project. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2eRIM2l2MYhhsUKEexxQOM7unWpHMcqrkCqjCBniI5aJ3MD/ - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] NSS Convention
I am looking forward to the day when the NSS Photo Salon is shown live on my 65 inch LCD TV in my living room, along with the exploration programs, and video salon, etc. David Locklear The opinions offered below are my own. I hope the NSS never shows the photo salon or any other convention activities live. NSS membership retention (not recruitment as many would have you believe) is way down. From the mid-1960s to the mid-1970s, the NSS Convention had attendance that was equivalent to 20% of the membership. Since 1976, the largest convention has been equivalent to 14% of the membership and many have been under 10%, although at least one flaw in my model is the fact that membership retention did not plummet until 1995 (Does anybody know what it was the NSS did in 1995 or possibly 1994 to so disaffect its members?) It is my opinion that membership retention is affected strongly by personal interaction among the members. Convention attendance is one of main things that separates a committed member from a magazine subscriber. The NSS can not thrive by having any number of subscribers to the NSS; there are way too many activities that the NSS depends on volunteers to run. Voting generally tracks the attendance at the previous convention. I believe that conventions are the glue that holds the NSS together and we need more glue, not less. The more one can get the benefits of convention without attending and having the personal interactions of actually attending, the poorer the NSS will be. People who routinely attend NSS conventions are more likely to volunteer their time, donate their money, and vote for Directors. Philip L. Moss Former NSS Director and recovering speleopolitician philipm...@juno.com Save on Cell Phones. Click Now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3nRN16uIMOfB5d9pqWzIGDj3k34ppBEmbCU3nNm4idzRCCtx/ - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] OT- gas prices
Do you want your income to revert to what it was when gas was $0.699/gal. also? Personally, I find it less painful to fill up today than I did in the mid-1970s. BTW - gas prices in some places in the US in 1906 was $1.06/gallon. Inflation calculators say that is equivalent to over $25/gal. in 2008 dollars. 1906 was the first year anyone drove from coast to coast in the US and it the trip cost about $8,000 in 1906 dollars (fuel, food, maintenance, and a mechanic's salary for the trip). There is a movie called Horatio's Drive about the trip. Energy prices have been high before, just not much in living memory. BTW - we do have subsidized gas prices in the US. There are numerous tax breaks specifically for oil companies, their waste is never treated as expensively as the same waste from other industries, and I don't believe that the American people are getting fair market royalties for oil produced from public lands. Philip L. Moss philipm...@juno.com Louise Power power_lou...@hotmail.com writes: snip Yipes! I remember when I thought I was being ripped off at $0.699/gal. Gimme back those days!!! Paralegal Scholarship - Click Now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3oICiLm0XB7pSJ1wnWLbfX3gH3ezJkfg41qRSLq5GGirl2WL/
Re: [Texascavers] Florida cave diving etc
Gill, I must disagree with you about letting people risk their lives in caves. I do agree we need to recognize that different folks have different degrees of ability and not put undue restrictions on people more skilled than we are. I know people who are as safe walking a tight rope as I am on a sidewalk. That being said, in most of the places I cave, the caves are privately owned and the owners know each other. I generally believe that adults have the right to maim or kill themselves, especially if they have made an informed choice. However, I don't think that they have the right to get me other cavers locked out of caves because they scared all the landowners in the area by getting trapped, rescued, or dying in a cave.. Caving is often perceived as very hazardous by landowners and I think that it is incumbent upon the caving community to ensure that individuals cave safely in sensitive areas. An accident is what happens when one ignores the immutable laws of physics. - Ambrose Bierce Almost no cave accidents are truly accidents in the sense that they were acts of God; they are the result of errors in judgement. Gill wrote: Many cavers cave divers have done it successfully--often enough to prove that it is not entirely stupid. I must disagree with the above in general (not about solo cave diving in particular). Most safety practices are based on something like a one in a million chance of something serious going wrong. Our experience base is not that large, so we must use nonempirical methods to assess risk. There is a big difference between getting away with an unsafe practice for years and the activity actually being safe. Someone who has successfully played Russian roulette once every weekend for the last 20 years doesn't prove that Russian roulette isn't dangerous. It shows the player has been lucky, but they are still engaged in a high risk activity. Philip L. Moss philipm...@juno.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Anthony Bourdain Goes Caving on the Travel Channel
On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 12:18:28 -0800 (PST) John Brooks jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net writes: Yeah..I bet none of us have been caving while poorly equipped... Sent from my iPhone While many of us have undoubtedly caved while poorly equipped, I think that there is an important distinction between what is done discreetly and what is done in a public setting such as TV and newspapers. In my experience, people learn much more from what they see and do, than from what they are told. If one leads a group of new people and tells them that each should have three independent sources of light, but that because this cave is easy or because of the large group, or we aren't going far in we have made an exception and you can get by with a flashlight, then what they have learned is that it is OK to cave with one flashlight. There are many good rules to safe caving that should be viewed as inviolable to beginners but must have some flexibility to deal with risks as evaluated by a highly experienced caver. Call it hypocritical if you must. However, safety is enhanced by discouraging new people from learning the hard way about risk analysis. Philip L. Moss philipm...@juno.com
Re: [Texascavers] [Bat Caught by Stalactite] - warning Ediger-length diatribe
assumptions. Now all of you have had the benefit of a modern education that has built on the cumulative knowledge starting at least with the Renaissance and will immediate realize what the source of over 99% of the heat on earth is that Kelvin was unable to include since it hadn't yet been discovered. Please keep in mind that there is a temperature scale named after Kelvin, because Kelvin recognized that relativism is a bad thing and leads people astray. He recognized that there is absolute temperature. Those who have succumbed to temptation and strayed from the path of righteousness and into the decadent and perverse use of relative temperatures such as Fahrenheit and Celsius, will have a harder time recognizing just how hot the earth is and how little difference in temperature the sun makes here at the surface of the earth. Now for those who are still scratching your heads about the source of approximately 99% of the heat on earth - if you can't recognize a simple thing like a heat source that provides 99% of the heat on your planet, perhaps you might have a little trouble recognizing evolution, which plays just as large a role in your lives. Some people measure success in dollars. The most profitable businesses today find their product using the tools of evolution. Which are the most profitable companies? Oil companies. Invertebrate paleontology is a key tool in oil exploration. Now if we can just get the educational system worldwide to quit teaching evolution, then we can finally rid ourselves of our oil dependance. Disclaimer: I am a professional geologist and a skeptic. My understanding of the world around me has been influenced by falsifiable theories, including the theory of evolution and the theory of gravity. I reserve the right to accept revised theories when there is conflicting or better data. If falsifiability cannot be applied to an idea, model, or theory, then it is a matter of faith, not science and should be treated as such. This is a simple test and is safe for home use by people of all ages who are compos mentis. Basic education should be learned in schools, from text books, scientific literature, and interacting with people who do research (including helping them). It should not be expected from a list server or the Internet in general. Philip L. Moss philipm...@juno.com On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 10:17:56 -0500 Fritz Holt fh...@townandcountryins.com writes: I am waiting for a knowledgeable geologist or someone to tell us that these formations are not formed by the same minerals or in the same manner in which cave formations are formed. I�m sure that there must be an explanation why these formations grew at such a rapid rate. Fritz with questions.
